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Blog article: A tamil brahmin in Bangalore

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.... Nara Sir, please clarify if EVR had said so.
Dear HH, you are correct. It is one of those urban legends without any basis in fact. If anybody makes this claim and if you feel like it, challenge them to produce evidence and you will only hear crickets.

Well Adigal was against the atheism of EVR.
The Dravidian movement had two factions, one headed by Adigal and the other by EVR. Adigal was against Sanskrit and Brahminical Hinduism. But he was very much a theist of the Saiva mold. EVR shared Adigal's antipathy for Brahminism, but he was a radical rationalist as well. Adigal did not like the rationalism of EVR. The differences between the two wings became quite harsh and open. At one point Adigal criticized EVR's writing as vomit. Compared to the word battle they had, what we are having here in this forum is calm and serene. Adigal tried to introduce sectarianism into the mix by accusing EVR group with Vaisnavite bias against his own saivam. There was no love lost between the two.

Finally, it was Thiru Vi. ka who brokered a cease-fire between the two factions.

Cheers!
 
I had made a genuine query for information and Shri Kunjuppu had replied to that. I do not think those need to be erased.

Sri.Sangom Sir,

Greetings. I did not mean about enquiry of a person. I raised the awareness because, Sri.Raju and Sow.HH were debating when Sri.RVR's name was mentioned, commenting on his way of thinking; Sri.RVR may not defend that. It would lower the value of the debate too. I just expressed my mind. Hope, this clears.

Cheers!
 
Saw this and therefore removed what i had mentioned to Raju that RVR was a nobody and hence we need not discuss him. Anyways, i take it as a suggestion from you that references to him be deleted, and therefore have deleted my mention of him. I leave it to Shri KRS ji to delete the parts in any of the posts where RVR has been mentioned.

Since the content of the above page from kudiarasu is in tamil, it may be a good idea to enumerate some points in english and post them here.

Regards.

Sow.HH, thank you.

I don't have enough scholarly knowledge to bring out the exact meanings quoted from Kudiarasu newspaper. All the quoted messages were supposed to be uttered by Ramasamy Naickar; however, we do not really know what was mentioned before and what was mentioned after the quoted messages. We should take such anamolies into consideration too. I produced that articles as one more view only; I am not going to stand by that view 100% since I don't know all the details.

எப்பொருள் யார்யார் வாய்கேட்பினும் அப்பொருள்
மெய்ப்பொருள் காண்பது அறிவு.

In my opinion, 'self-respect movement' helped everyone. Be it Harijan, higher caste Hindus or brahmins; it helped all and sundries. The above Kural equally applies to Ramasamy Naickar and M.Venkatesan.

I will translate what I can as time permits. I humbly request honourable members to translate a small portion from that article please; we may have the whole thing translated very quickly. Thank you.

Cheers!
 
Folks,

I am really sorry - I have been too busy the last few days with work, I barely could pay only scant attention to my job here. I know some of you sent me PMs, but it will have to wait till this weekend for response from me.

Tomorrow I am traveling all day as well as Friday afternoon - a trip abroad.

In the mean time, please read my posting above about what is good to post. I feel that we are again on the edge of the line. Please do not get mad at each other - I will moderate the past postings on the guidelines.

I am in Europe for the next 18 days.

I request Sri Praveen Ji to keep an eye.

I agree that we should not refer to what folks said here in the past - they are not here to defend their ideas themselves.

But I saw Srimathi HH Ji's kind post removing the references herself. Thank you.

Regards,
KRS
 
..It is one of those urban legends without any basis in fact. If anybody makes this claim and if you feel like it, challenge them to produce evidence and you will only hear crickets.

...Adigal did not like the rationalism of EVR.
Thanks for the clarification sir. I feel the rationalism of EVR is not easy for anyone to follow just like that. Rationalism which comes from self-enquiry and exploration is one thing, but forced rationalism and that too of the political kind is an entirely different thing.

Regards.
 
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Dear Raghy Sir,

Thankyou for the post # 103.

To me, EVR was fraught with imperfections and did not elevate himself to the state of being a 'periyar'.

However, imo indulging in character-assasination by calling him licentious, labeling him anti-dalit, and atrributing things to him he never said, is an attempt to demonise him.

As far am concerned, am ok with his temple-entry for dalits, reservations, and part of his talks on breaking caste barriers. Am unable to agree with the rest that he did or preached.

Giving public speeches is one thing. But ensuring that dalits do not indulge in violence after listening to those speeches is the duty of any "leader". EVR fell short of that mark.

Regards.
 
Dear HH, you are correct. It is one of those urban legends without any basis in fact. If anybody makes this claim and if you feel like it, challenge them to produce evidence and you will only hear crickets.

Dear HH,
You and your friend are not correct. I have personally attended a public meeting in Tuticorin(Melur, Bose Thidal to be precise) sometime in the 1950s where EVR used the same words and a motely crowd applauded him. This is not 'crickets' or hockey!! If you need physical evidence I am here 178 cm tall 80 kg hale and healthy, staying in Adyar, Chennai.
The Dravidian movement had two factions, one headed by Adigal and the other by EVR. Adigal was against Sanskrit and Brahminical Hinduism. But he was very much a theist of the Saiva mold. EVR shared Adigal's antipathy for Brahminism, but he was a radical rationalist as well. Adigal did not like the rationalism of EVR. The differences between the two wings became quite harsh and open. At one point Adigal criticized EVR's writing as vomit. Compared to the word battle they had, what we are having here in this forum is calm and serene. Adigal tried to introduce sectarianism into the mix by accusing EVR group with Vaisnavite bias against his own saivam. There was no love lost between the two.
Finally, it was Thiru Vi. ka who brokered a cease-fire between the two factions.

The sordid story of Dravidian movement can be simplified in a few sentences. It was founded and nurtured by Mudaliyars and vellaala pillais of tamilnadu who were at best feudal in their outlooks. When the Mudaliyars and Pillais found that the movement had been hijacked by EVR they came out to start the DMK. In Politics, like in any other walk of life, nothing succeeds like success.And we have the dravidian movement taking up the caste question in hand to give content to its avatar. Like the சினிமா பாட்டு புத்தகம் the paragraph can be concluded with மீதியை வெள்ளித்திரையில் காண்க! The வெள்ளித்திரை is what we are witnessing today in TN, a public who are struggling to grapple with the number of zeros following the 176 making up the presently popular scam amount.
 
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Dear Raghy Sir,

Thankyou for the post # 103.

To me, EVR was fraught with imperfections and did not elevate himself to the state of being a 'periyar'.

However, imo indulging in character-assasination by calling him licentious, labeling him anti-dalit, and atrributing things to him he never said, is an attempt to demonise him.

As far am concerned, am ok with his temple-entry for dalits, reservations, and part of his talks on breaking caste barriers. Am unable to agree with the rest that he did or preached.

Giving public speeches is one thing. But ensuring that dalits do not indulge in violence after listening to those speeches is the duty of any "leader". EVR fell short of that mark.

Regards.

Dear HH,

If I see twist here am I wrong? It is not the dalits who have turned violent. In most of the cases it is the middle castes who turned violent.
 
Thanks for the clarification sir. I feel the rationalism of EVR is not easy for anyone to follow just like that. Rationalism which comes from self-enquiry and exploration is one thing, but forced rationalism and that too of the political kind is an entirely different thing.

Regards.

Dear HH,
Unlike the scientific rationalism of DR. Kovoor or the lesser known Rahula Sankrithyayan,(the contemporaries) the rationalism of EVR was opportunistic. It was a selective rationalism applied only against Hinduism leaving the Islam and Christianity in glory. I am mentioning only C and I here because they are the two major other religions in practice in India.
 
Dear HH,
Your post #95 is high-lighted below:.
1) There is nothing called "dalits" in the dharmashastras. The shudras are the panchamas. If gradations across each varna is taken into account, then the panchamas constitute the lowest end of the shudras. But they are not a seperate component by themselves. So when i say shudra, it automatically includes/means a panchama.

I am unable to agree with your statement. Please refer to "ம்ரித்யூர் தாவதி பஞ்சம இதி" in the vedas.
 
Dear HH,
You and your friend are not correct. I have personally attended a public meeting in Tuticorin(Melur, Bose Thidal to be precise) sometime in the 1950s where EVR used the same words and a motely crowd applauded him. This is not 'crickets' or hockey!! If you need physical evidence I am here 178 cm tall 80 kg hale and healthy, staying in Adyar, Chennai.
Dear Raju,

How to believe you? What's the guarantee that you are not fibbing ?

EVR was far too brutal with his tongue. When he can make so many audacious statements and publish them, surely he could have published this too. There was nothing stopping him from doing so.

We see no statement from his publications anywhere that பாம்பையும் பார்ப்பானையும் கண்டால் பாம்பை விட்டு விடு. பார்ப்பனனை கொன்று விடு
(meaning, 'if you see a snake and a brahmin, kill the brahmin').

Whoever (looks like a sadist) made up this phrase, simply decided to make something up and attribute it to EVR.

The sordid story of Dravidian movement can be simplified in a few sentences. It was founded and nurtured by Mudaliyars and vellaala pillais of tamilnadu who were at best feudal in their outlooks. When the Mudaliyars and Pillais found that the movement had been hijacked by EVR they came out to start the DMK. In Politics, like in any other walk of life, nothing succeeds like success.And we have the dravidian movement taking up the caste question in hand to give content to its avatar. Like the சினிமா பாட்டு புத்தகம் the paragraph can be concluded with மீதியை வெள்ளித்திரையில் காண்க! The வெள்ளித்திரை is what we are witnessing today in TN, a public who are struggling to grapple with the number of zeros following the 176 making up the presently popular scam amount.
Sorry Raju, we are not talking about scams / corruption or about the formation of DMK. All that is an other issue. We are talking about EVR and caste. So please stick to it. You need to produce evidence for just 2 things
1) that EVR was licentious
2) that EVR was anti-dalit.

Dear HH,

If I see twist here am I wrong? It is not the dalits who have turned violent. In most of the cases it is the middle castes who turned violent.
Makes no sense. Whatever violence was done in breaking idols and poonul cutting was done by dalits/shudras. All this terminology of "middle-caste" is new. And i have never been able to understand what that term means.

Dear HH,
Unlike the scientific rationalism of DR. Kovoor or the lesser known Rahula Sankrithyayan,(the contemporaries) the rationalism of EVR was opportunistic. It was a selective rationalism applied only against Hinduism leaving the Islam and Christianity in glory. I am mentioning only C and I here because they are the two major other religions in practice in India.
At that point of time, some leaders saw converting to an other religion as an escape from the caste-system. Honestly speaking, i can only imagine how things must have been in the 1910s and 1920s, esp when this is the state of caste in 2011. I do not blame Ambedkar for asking his followers to convert into Buddhism. EVR was foolish in preaching rationalism and asking people to give up religion; at a time when the majority public was not even literate to read / explore. Claiming that EVR's rationalism was opportunistic is a mere allegation. EVR seems to have used rationalism to preach caste-abolition. It that is opportunistic, then that's fine i suppose.

Dear HH,
Your post #95 is high-lighted below:.
1) There is nothing called "dalits" in the dharmashastras. The shudras are the panchamas. If gradations across each varna is taken into account, then the panchamas constitute the lowest end of the shudras. But they are not a seperate component by themselves. So when i say shudra, it automatically includes/means a panchama.

I am unable to agree with your statement. Please refer to "ம்ரித்யூர் தாவதி பஞ்சம இதி" in the vedas.
Excuse me, does ம்ரித்யூர் தாவதி பஞ்சம இதி mean there was a panchama varna or that there were panchamas? Are you trying some comedy? Please, i hope you will stick to what you need to produce. That is, evidence
1) that EVR was licentious
2) that EVR was anti-dalit.

Regards.
 
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Dear Raju,

How to believe you? What's the guarantee that you are not fibbing ?
Excuse me, does ம்ரித்யூர் தாவதி பஞ்சம இதி mean there was a panchama varna or that there were panchamas? Are you trying some comedy? Please, i hope you will stick to what you need to produce. That is, evidence
1) that EVR was licentious
2) that EVR was anti-dalit.

The day you give independent acceptable evidence for the 'Periyar and the Kashi dogs' story that you have given in your earlier post (I asked for it and you never gave a reply to that request), I will give you the evidences for what I have said about EVR( I gave you some tips to find those evidences for yourself and you did not make the effort.):
1) that EVR was licentious
2) that EVR was anti-dalit.

These are your words(high lighted)

Excuse me, does ம்ரித்யூர் தாவதி பஞ்சம இதி mean there was a panchama varna or that there were panchamas? Are you trying some comedy?

I am simply amazed at your level of understanding. God bless you i.e. if you believe in God.

I thought I was engaged in a debate. Now I regret. You wont get any more replies from me on this subject except the one which I have promised above on condition and you can be happy with your adoration of EVR. Thank you. You need not even acknowledge this post. Cheers.
 
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Dear HH,
These are your words(high lighted)

Excuse me, does ம்ரித்யூர் தாவதி பஞ்சம இதி mean there was a panchama varna or that there were panchamas? Are you trying some comedy?

I am simply amazed by your level of understanding. God bless you i.e. if you believe in God.
Thankyou Raju. Before we continue with anything else i would first like to see you providing evidence:
1) that EVR was licentious
2) that EVR was anti-dalit.

If you cannot provide such evidence, then you could as well state so.
 
The day you give independent acceptable evidence for the 'Periyar and the Kashi dogs' story that you have given in your earlier post(I asked for it and you never gave a reply to that request) I will give you the evidences for what I have said about EVR:
1) that EVR was licentious
2) that EVR was anti-dalit.

These are your words(high lighted)

Excuse me, does ம்ரித்யூர் தாவதி பஞ்சம இதி mean there was a panchama varna or that there were panchamas? Are you trying some comedy?

I am simply amazed at your level of understanding. God bless you i.e. if you believe in God.

I thought I was engaged in a debate. Now I regret. You wont get any more replies from me on this subject except the one which I have promised above on condition and you can be happy with your adoration of EVR. Thank you. You need not even acknowledge this post. Cheers.
Well, it appears that you have no evidence to prove your allegation, and hence all this discussion that does not pertain to the point. I have no comments on your posts. I shall leave it to the readers to decide. Let it be known to them from which section the character-assasination and demonisation of EVR has been coming.

Thanks.
 
Dear HH,
Your post #95 is high-lighted below:.
1) There is nothing called "dalits" in the dharmashastras. The shudras are the panchamas. If gradations across each varna is taken into account, then the panchamas constitute the lowest end of the shudras. But they are not a seperate component by themselves. So when i say shudra, it automatically includes/means a panchama.

I am unable to agree with your statement. Please refer to "ம்ரித்யூர் தாவதி பஞ்சம இதி" in the vedas.

bhīṣāsmād vātaḥ pavate | bhīṣodeti sūrya: |bhīṣādagniścendraśca | mṛtyurdhāvati pañcama iti |

The above lines occur in Taittireeyopanishad, Brahmaanandavallee, 8th. anuvaaka. The meaning is "out of fear for this (parabrahman) vāyu, sūrya, agni , indra and fifthly mṛtyu, all these go about doing their respective duties. pañcama here means fifthly.
 
bhīṣāsmād vātaḥ pavate | bhīṣodeti sūrya: |bhīṣādagniścendraśca | mṛtyurdhāvati pañcama iti |

The above lines occur in Taittireeyopanishad, Brahmaanandavallee, 8th. anuvaaka. The meaning is "out of fear for this (parabrahman) vāyu, sūrya, agni , indra and fifthly mṛtyu, all these go about doing their respective duties. pañcama here means fifthly.
Sangom sir, perhaps there is no point explaining. Lets not go to sanskrit. Even a hindi speaker can make out the phrase is talking something about some fifth factor, mrityu and not about panchamas (but then what can one say in the face of such level of understanding).

Am sorry to have been so outright crude in this thread. But honestly, am just amazed at what this whole idea of brahminism is. Am really not surprised at all anymore at how things came about.

For all the talk on how brahmins are intelligent, smart, etc, i feel the NBs got one thing smarter than brahmins at a point when it mattered the most -- showing unity with dalits, first politically, then over time now slowly socially.

Regards.
 
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Sangom sir, perhaps there is no point explaining. Lets not go to sanskrit. Even a hindi speaker can make out the phrase is talking something about some fifth factor, mrityu and not about panchamas (but then what can one say in the face of such level of understanding).

Am sorry to have been so outright crude in this thread. But honestly, am just amazed at what this whole idea of brahminism is. Am really not surprised at all anymore at how things came about.

For all the talk on how brahmins are intelligent, smart, etc, i feel the NBs got one thing smarter than brahmins at a point when it mattered the most -- showing unity with dalits, first politically, then over time now slowly socially.

Regards.

Smt. HH,

Whenever the topics of dalits, DK/DMK, EVR etc., come up during discussion - right from the days of our ex-veteran RVR - I have observed that there is reference to the great atrocities being perpetrated by the NBFCs (in RBI we had a separate division called NBFC - Non-Banking Financial Companies and this always comes to my mind :) ) even today against the dalits. I am not in contact with the goings on in TN districts; may be you, Kunjuppu or some one should give an impartial assessment of whether such atrocities are even now a daily occurrence in most parts of TN or whether some isolated instances are being blown out of proportion.

Under that sort of an atmosphere created by different posts, it may not impress an uninformed reader whether we can confidently say that the NBFCs of TN showed "unity with dalits, first politically, then over time now slowly socially".

I will agree to the extent that EVR was the single major cause for tabras becoming completely sidelined in TN. But for the sake of argument, I will say that even if EVR were not there, Tabras would have become sidelined after independence, but perhaps after a pitched battle being fought by them for prolonging their hegemony; the results would have been more abject terms of surrender of Tabras than what is being experienced today. In that respect EVR served a salutary purpose, it looks to me. Knowledgeable members may correct me.
 
...I will agree to the extent that EVR was the single major cause for tabras becoming completely sidelined in TN. But for the sake of argument, I will say that even if EVR were not there, Tabras would have become sidelined after independence, but perhaps after a pitched battle being fought by them for prolonging their hegemony; the results would have been more abject terms of surrender of Tabras than what is being experienced today. In that respect EVR served a salutary purpose, it looks to me. Knowledgeable members may correct me.

100% correct sangom. it may not be pitched battles between tambrams and others. tambrams never resorted to physical fight on their own behalf, but they might have used the strong arm of the police and state powers to hold on to power related privileges much like in the north.

periyar increased the awareness of the NBs and was a lightning rod for every NB to gather together.

currently there is a big fight in a village called uthapuram near madurai for dalit entry to a pillaimar temple. it is a small village, with pillaimar holding the land, and dalits the landless labourers. that is one major flare up that is ongoing for yers now. apart from that, it is well known that dalits treat socially approved insults like two glasses etc. nothing that we brahmins do not know about. it was practised in all our househlolds till recently. and maybe even now, who knows.

to your main query: a while back in another forum, one NB had this stinging arguement abgainst the brahmins who pointed out to the corruption in the TN society now. his answer was that this corruption was still 'their (NB)' corruption, and the beneficiaries were NBs; as opposed to tambrams getting benefit.

we then move on to whether there was so much corruption when tambrams were in power. i have already stated that i know personally of folks who profitted from their poistion for under the table rewards. whether it was so prevalent, ie seeping through all aspects of life, i donnt know. but then prior to 1960s the government involvement in the people's affairs was fairly small. the collector was a distant petit god, as opposed to his role as a hands on adminsitrator now.

that the old ics officers, who were all FCs treatred the elected politicians with disdain is no secret. even kamaraj was insulted by the then chief secretary. absence of education or inability to speak english, for these FCs appear to be factors enough that they are unfit to govern. hopefully that attitude has changed now.

all in all, periyar happened 50 years ahead of his time. the other parts of india are only now catching up re OBC resurgence, and above all dalit upward mobility. the reate at which TN is going, in another 50 years we will be a classless society, if not casteless. the rest of india, give them 100 years. still considering that all these were entrenched for milleniums, the progress has been at lightning speed, and comparatively painless, and almost bloodless. for that, we have to thank our democracy, and jawaharlal nehru, for entrenching this in our psyche.

jai hind. jai nehru. .
 
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Dear Sangom Sir,

I feel all prejudices are the legacy of the elders who pass it on to us. All elders i know still have disdain in their heart for the 'low-castes'.

I can imagine why EVR's success was limited. Because it is hard to change old ways of thinking. And that too about 60 years back.

Anyways, coming to me, somehow in between i began developing a similar disdain. But am glad i got out of it.

The more i understand castes-tribes, the more i understand how porous each caste structure's membranes have been. Atleast in some part.

But still in my generation of middle-aged people, some maybe castiest, so, its a mixed bag.

But the current generation is not like that. Am talking about those in their 20s and below. They are a far cry. Except on application forms, they simply do not understand the word "caste". No one knows who is a brahmin who is not. This is the age group that is challenging all norms set by the elders. So they are the future, the sunshine.

I also feel, if one is proud of one's pedigree it is only right to share it and absorb people into it. Hopefully the elderly generation will understand that someday.

Regards.
 
happy,

soo true. prejudice is learned. here in toronto, with the influx of coloured immigrants starting 1967, there was a huge backlash by the whites. The govt then took a concerted effort not only through advertisements, but through education in the schools. I am happy to say with the new generation like my children, they feel seemless and comfortable to identify themselves as Canadians first. That is a tribute to the official mutlicutltural policy of western countries like Canada, UK or USA. France is another matter.

In india too, the fathers of our constitution had the right idea. But with our caste, it is religion sanctioned and a few millenniums old. Just look at how much support varna in its numerous avatars gets support in ths forum alone. Generally I found, the less the education, social strata or those who have constantly failed themselves to achieve are the most ardent supporters of the worser aspects of castes. For example, the most ardent intercaste opposition came from single youngsters in their thirties and forties, who felt that the tambram girls had ‘betrayed’ their community by opting for ic marriages, and in the process deprived them of grihasthahood. Sad, but true, I think.
 
100% correct sangom. it may not be pitched battles between tambrams and others. tambrams never resorted to physical fight on their own behalf, but they might have used the strong arm of the police and state powers to hold on to power related privileges much like in the north.

periyar increased the awareness of the NBs and was a lightning rod for every NB to gather together.

currently there is a big fight in a village called uthapuram near madurai for dalit entry to a pillaimar temple. it is a small village, with pillaimar holding the land, and dalits the landless labourers. that is one major flare up that is ongoing for yers now. apart from that, it is well known that dalits treat socially approved insults like two glasses etc. nothing that we brahmins do not know about. it was practised in all our househlolds till recently. and maybe even now, who knows.

to your main query: a while back in another forum, one NB had this stinging arguement abgainst the brahmins who pointed out to the corruption in the TN society now. his answer was that this corruption was still 'their (NB)' corruption, and the beneficiaries were NBs; as opposed to tambrams getting benefit.

we then move on to whether there was so much corruption when tambrams were in power. i have already stated that i know personally of folks who profitted from their poistion for under the table rewards. whether it was so prevalent, ie seeping through all aspects of life, i donnt know. but then prior to 1960s the government involvement in the people's affairs was fairly small. the collector was a distant petit god, as opposed to his role as a hands on adminsitrator now.

that the old ics officers, who were all FCs treatred the elected politicians with disdain is no secret. even kamaraj was insulted by the then chief secretary. absence of education or inability to speak english, for these FCs appear to be factors enough that they are unfit to govern. hopefully that attitude has changed now.

all in all, periyar happened 50 years ahead of his time. the other parts of india are only now catching up re OBC resurgence, and above all dalit upward mobility. the reate at which TN is going, in another 50 years we will be a classless society, if not casteless. the rest of india, give them 100 years. still considering that all these were entrenched for milleniums, the progress has been at lightning speed, and comparatively painless, and almost bloodless. for that, we have to thank our democracy, and jawaharlal nehru, for entrenching this in our psyche.

jai hind. jai nehru. jai sangom.

Dear Kunjuppu,

While I value your good wishes immensely, I do not think I am someone to be put alongside "hind" or "Nehru". So, I will humbly request you to remove "jai sangom" as soon as you read this. Once again my sincere thanks for your regards.

Today, in Kerala we cannot find the "two-tumblers" or any such thing in any place. In most tabra households which are hygiene conscious, they wash the cups and glasses used by others (whoever it may be, including the thaNDaan who climbs the coconut tree, or the SC who comes to do odd jobs about the compound, or even a beggar who amy ask for a glass of water, very rare now to see a beggar even on the roads). I wonder how such admirable co-existence could be achieved in the just neghbouring Chera country which shared many cultural traits with TN of old. But talking of sipping tumblers and cups even our children do that and we have to wash the cups and tumblers then also ;) and we do.

From what you write, I feel the NBFC atrocities are isolated instances if we exclude the passive acts like two-tumblers.
 
Dear Shri Kunjuppu, Smt. HH,

I am talking of myself, not general. Born in a well-off vaideeki brahman "mathom" (as tabra houses in Travancore and Cochin were called, as different from "illam" or "mana" of Namboodiris), I had classmates from various castes in the primary school itself. Because "maDi" would be lost in such a school, we had to take body bath, before entering the house on return from school. My sister used to be given noon meals in the open verandah of the house which would be cleaned subsequently. My grandmother used to bring meals for me in a thookku and give me in a similar open verandah of another mathom just across the road from my school, because I had deadly fear of dogs, preventing me from coming alone for my noon meals!

When, after a few years we came to TVPM, the social conditions had changed much. There was no difficulty felt even by my grandmother in adjusting to the changes. I now wonder at this malleability of our people (at least many of them, even of the older generation) at this distance of time, though everything looked quite natural then, because I now see how much conservatism, prejudices, etc., can be there, from my interaction in this forum.
 
I hail from Tamilnadu.I can confidently say that frequent clashes do take place in tamilnadu villages involving all castes (excluding Tabras)
Fcs,BCs,MBcs with Dalit community people.They even construct walls to prevent Dalit community people from entering their area,prevent them from entering temples,prevent them from drawing water.CPI party intervenes in many cases.As for Tabras they may definitely be having prejudices,
but there is no outward exhibition.
As regards the claim of M/s HH that there is no caste prejudices among youngsters,I am unable to agree with her.My own grandson aged about 18 years has lot of friends from other communities,other religious groups visiting our house and they are all conscious of their castes.
One thing I can confidently say that other caste people(may be other religious groups too) in Tamilnadu do have lot of hatred towards tabras.Perhaps they do not reveal their minds.Iam talking of my personal experience.I have seen this trait in my NB friends with whom I have been moving closely as family friends for the past 46 years.Everything looks nice outwardly.Let us be sincere and honest to see things as they are.
Recently one family visited our house in USA.We do not ask for castes.We only ask from which state they belong.The gentleman introduced himself to me that he is from MUDALIAR community of Tamilnadu but settled in Hyderabad for three generations.
Perhaps all these may be EVR's propaganda effect.
 
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I hail from Tamilnadu.I can confidently say that frequent clashes do take place in tamilnadu villages involving all castes (excluding Tabras)
Fcs,BCs,MBcs with Dalit community people.They even construct walls to prevent Dalit community people from entering their area,prevent them from entering temples,prevent them from drawing water.CPI party intervenes in many cases.As for Tabras they may definitely be having prejudices,
but there is no outward exhibition.
Dear Sir,

I do agree with you there are clashes. However, am unable to agree that they are frequent. I do not think these things are widespread, but they may be endemic to regions within urban layouts also (as shown in the "India Untouched" documentary), and remain unseen simmerring in the background (which i feel is a dangerous thing).

These caste clashes occur in places where education/awareness is low on both the sides of the fighting parties. So both sides need an 'education'. Not surprisingly these things (open clashes) happen in rural areas.

The erection of walls you state were isolated incident that happened in Nagarajapuram village and Uthapuram Village. In both the places, the wall is now demolished. The prejudice however still remains.

It will take a few more years for everyone to catch up on education and move out of such things.

As regards the claim of M/s HH that there is no caste prejudices among youngsters,I am unable to agree with her.My own grandson aged about 18 years has lot of friends from other communities,other religious groups visiting our house and they are all conscious of their castes.
I feel this may vary from place to place. Although everyone must be aware of their caste which they need to fill in application forms, the way it is handled socially varies. Even within urban places, it may vary based on the 'group'. One may be a group of youngsters who may go pubbing or hang-out outside a mall every weekend. They are interested in who is going out with whom, latest fashion trends and latest gossip on movie stars. They talk about everything under the sun. Caste does not figure in their talks.

Another maybe a group of youngsters who come from traditional families and are caste-conscious (but not to the extent of being castiests) . Being aware of the name of one's caste does not mean s/he must be 'caste-concious' to the extent practicing social-ostracism. Atleast so far i can say i have not met youngsters who want to re-create a society based on socially sanctioned discrimination, irrespective of whether they come from traditional or upwardly mobile families. But since we are talking about personal observations, each one's observation may vary.

One thing I can confidently say that other caste people(may be other religious groups too) in Tamilnadu do have lot of hatred towards tabras.Perhaps they do not reveal their minds.Iam talking of my personal experience.I have seen this trait in my NB friends with whom I have been moving closely as family friends for the past 46 years.Everything looks nice outwardly.Let us be sincere and honest to see things as they are.
Recently one family visited our house in USA.We do not ask for castes.We only ask from which state they belong.The gentleman introduced himself to me that he is from MUDALIAR community of Tamilnadu but settled in Hyderabad for three generations.
Perhaps all these may be EVR's propaganda effect.
Sir, i do not know why you feel other castes 'do have a lot of hatered' for tambrams. This is something that quite a few elderly people on this forum seem to state. It would be good to explore this further, i feel, to understand the underlying reasons for it. Especially since on this forum, almost all posters are elderly people, so we may get a some replies, hopefully.

As regards your friend sir who introduced himself as mudaliyar, possibly he is not a casteist who beleives in caste-discrimination (or does he feel people should be segregated on caste grounds??). It would be hard even for himself to tell for sure if he is a mudaliyar of palli (vanniar) tribe / pallar caste, or agamudaiyar or vellalar origin. He probably thinks his title 'mudaliyar' gives him some social standing and hence mentioned that he is a mudaliyar to make himself favorable to you/others.

Regards.
 
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