Brahmana (Brahmin) Status

[pannvalan]

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Dear Professor,

Kamba Ramayanam was written in ninth century and based on it (and also the original Sanskrit version of Valmiki) its Telugu version was written by Kavi Nannaya in 10th century A.D.

Kamban's period has been compared with the life of the Kulothunga Cholan and Avvai also, who is a contemporary of Kamban. There is a memorial inside Srirangam temple, near the place where Kamban released his work to the external world in the presence of the king and many Tamil scholars of that time.

Ottakoothan wrote another Ramayanam in Tamil, much later. But, it is not available in its entirety. One Volume of his work has been published by Annamalai University, a copy of which I could grab. (of course, I paid money and bought it).

As for the Alwars, they have lived in different times from 9th century to 13th century.

But, the Nayanmars period has been determined as from 7th century to 11th century.
Because, Sekkilaar's 'Thiruthondar Puranam' was published in 11th century by him.

 

[RVR]

Sri Pannvalan

Alwars and Nayanmars lived during 7th to 9th century AD

Alvars - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Kambar lived during 12th Century AD.Ottakuthur same time.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kambar_(poet)

Sekkizhar 12th Century AD

Avvai period is not known. There seems to be two Avvaiyar one during 1st and second century and other during 12th century

Please correct me if I am wrong

All the best

 

[Nara]

Kamba Ramayanam was written in ninth century and based on it

Dear Shri Pannvalan:

Greetings!

I picked up 12th century from Wiki.P.

Here is a passage from an article on Kampa rAmAyaNam (கம்பராமாயணம்), by C.R.Krishnamurthy, courtesy, Tamilnation website

Periodic conferences of scholars had been held to discuss Kampan's dates exclusively. Critically analyzing all the available evidence, wading through inconsistencies and discrepancies in the dates of contemporary Kings, patrons and poets and sorting out interpolations from the main text based on their style, Zvelebil (1995) has suggested two probable dates for Kampan, 855 or 1185 A.D. This will correspond to the reign of utthama ChOzhan(உத்தம சோழன்)or KulOthunka ChOzhan III (குலோத்துங்க சோழன்). ​

As for the Alwars, they have lived in different times from 9th century to 13th century.

If Kamban is 9th century, then Nammazhvar must be prior to that as he wrote Shatakopar Anthathi!

Sriman Nathamunigal compiled the நாலாயிர திவ்யப்ரபந்தம். He lived in the late part of 9th century CE. Therefore, the period of even the last of the Azhvars is no later than the 9th century.

Cheers!

 

[anandb]

Dear HH

i did not say the itihaasas were figments of imagination.

its precisely because of the antiquity factor that things are so circumspect.

no one knows who added what to the story.

A lot of things were considered to have been added and deleted to the Valmiki Ramayana. The ones who researched it and wrote on such things were indian hindus 'brahmins'. Since you are averse to western ones, you can google and read on them. Am running short of time, or wud have posted links / names of books.

A lot of temples were built based on various stories. Who knows if the temples are that old or were built based on the story in later times like post-mughal times..

nope am not dismissing everything as someone's fertile imagination. But ancient stories tend to have lots of loopholes. We cud talk abt this on a seperate thread, like contradiction in itihasas, like say abt the character Parashurama in the Ramayan and supposedly the same Parashurama in Mahabharat.

Will be logging in afer a few days. Ciao later.

M'am, tell me, which story including the modern day stories do not have loopholes? News get reported from all over the world. Do we ask for proof for all of that? You rely so much on Wiki but Wiki itself can be edited and info added by anyone. The point I am trying to convey is for something which happened thousands of years back (or in your opinion did not happen) it is going to be very difficult to prove what exactly happened. Now there is a common faith among people that events of the Ramayana or Mahabharata did happen probably not in that order, probably not all or probably with regional variations. These are not just incidents which happened but each incident or event has extraordinary messages for humanity. The problem is excessive obsession with the chronology of events or whether all the events did happen or not is going to make you lose the message which comes out of it. Shri. Paramahansa nicely puts it in his commentary of the Gita. A rational mind may wonder how on earth a conversation like this can take place between Krishna and Arjuna on a battlefield amidst war. If I am going to dwell on that then I am not going to dwell on the pearls of wisdom which came from Krishna. The same applies for the sthala puranas of temples. We can keep on questioning whether the temples are old enough, these stories are fake and so on. Some scientist would do carbon-dating on these temples and then some other guy would say the former faked the results or the technique itself is wrong. So whom do we believe? Paramahansa Yogananda says the glory of a civilization lies in the quality of literature that is produced by it and applying this yardstick the Indian civilization should have been a glorious one. Even if all this literature was all dream t up, I would say it is one hell of someone's imagination and for someone to imagine that way his level of consciousness should be quite high.

If you also read up Islamic or Christian literature there is a lot of discussion about the chronology of events and in some cases whether such events happened or not in the lives of the Prophet or Jesus. These questions are bound to arise as the events happened thousands of years back. Even if a kanakku pillai roamed along with these Prophets like their shadow noting down every minute incident, chances are this kanakku pillai may still be questioned. So these uncertainties have to be lived with. You can probably assign a % of probability to these incidents and concentrate on the message that is conveyed. There should be at least some modicum of truth in what happened or otherwise everything can be deemed as fiction and dismissed. My final words on this subject.

Thanks

 

[happyhindu]

M'am, tell me, which story including the modern day stories do not have loopholes? News get reported from all over the world. Do we ask for proof for all of that? You rely so much on Wiki but Wiki itself can be edited and info added by anyone. The point I am trying to convey is for something which happened thousands of years back (or in your opinion did not happen) it is going to be very difficult to prove what exactly happened. Now there is a common faith among people that events of the Ramayana or Mahabharata did happen probably not in that order, probably not all or probably with regional variations. These are not just incidents which happened but each incident or event has extraordinary messages for humanity. The problem is excessive obsession with the chronology of events or whether all the events did happen or not is going to make you lose the message which comes out of it. Shri. Paramahansa nicely puts it in his commentary of the Gita. A rational mind may wonder how on earth a conversation like this can take place between Krishna and Arjuna on a battlefield amidst war. If I am going to dwell on that then I am not going to dwell on the pearls of wisdom which came from Krishna. The same applies for the sthala puranas of temples. We can keep on questioning whether the temples are old enough, these stories are fake and so on. Some scientist would do carbon-dating on these temples and then some other guy would say the former faked the results or the technique itself is wrong. So whom do we believe? Paramahansa Yogananda says the glory of a civilization lies in the quality of literature that is produced by it and applying this yardstick the Indian civilization should have been a glorious one. Even if all this literature was all dream t up, I would say it is one hell of someone's imagination and for someone to imagine that way his level of consciousness should be quite high.

If you also read up Islamic or Christian literature there is a lot of discussion about the chronology of events and in some cases whether such events happened or not in the lives of the Prophet or Jesus. These questions are bound to arise as the events happened thousands of years back. Even if a kanakku pillai roamed along with these Prophets like their shadow noting down every minute incident, chances are this kanakku pillai may still be questioned. So these uncertainties have to be lived with. You can probably assign a % of probability to these incidents and concentrate on the message that is conveyed. There should be at least some modicum of truth in what happened or otherwise everything can be deemed as fiction and dismissed. My final words on this subject.

Thanks

Am sorry Anand, after reading thru your post twice, i still dunno what you were trying to convey.

just to clarify from what little i understand:

a) i do not think i said everything can be dismissed as fiction.

b) am not silly enuf to rely on wiki articles "so much". i only asked you to refer to the sources in the wiki article. its ofcourse needless to say that those sources are just something that one can begin with, they ofcourse won't suffice and one wud have to look up other sources as well.

if you wish to adhere to scriptures, so be it.

if i wish to go by whatever proof is available on hand, so be it as well.

i suppose we have agreed to disagree; and move on.

thanks & regards.

 

[KRS]

Here is an article I read and it brought tears to my eyes. Even though this is dated, it still has relevance:

Shastras

Regards,
KRS

 

[S.Sankaranarayanan]

Lord Krishna declares in'Bhagavat Geetha' that four varnas were created by him based on gunas and karmas. But gunas and karmas of a man follow from his karmas done during previous births. Further, at the time of birth of a child, we do not know its gunas or Karmas. It will take at least about 5 to 6 years from birth. If the varna is to be decided on the basis of Guna etc., the child does not have any varna until its guna etc., are decided and varna assigned thereafter. Until then, no shastric ceremonies (samskaras) can be done to him. But shastras enjoin some ceremonies based on varna to be done even before child is 6 years old. This is possible only when we accept the previous birth and that our present birth and qualities etc., are a result of our actions done during earlier births. This means varna is decided by birth only.

 

[happyhindu]

Lord Krishna declares in'Bhagavat Geetha' that four varnas were created by him based on gunas and karmas. But gunas and karmas of a man follow from his karmas done during previous births. Further, at the time of birth of a child, we do not know its gunas or Karmas. It will take at least about 5 to 6 years from birth. If the varna is to be decided on the basis of Guna etc., the child does not have any varna until its guna etc., are decided and varna assigned thereafter. Until then, no shastric ceremonies (samskaras) can be done to him. But shastras enjoin some ceremonies based on varna to be done even before child is 6 years old. This is possible only when we accept the previous birth and that our present birth and qualities etc., are a result of our actions done during earlier births. This means varna is decided by birth only.

No one says that varna is not by birth.

The only contension is whether jaati is linkable to varna or not; and whether jaati (occupations) are fixable by birth or not.

While the non-shankara mutts says jaati is not fixable at birth; the shankara mutts consider jaathi (occupations) as fixed by birth.

As mentioned in a previous post, it is debatable whether the term shudra in the vedas refers to jaati or not. The non-shankara ekadandis say that the term shudra in the vedas do not refer to jaathi.

It is also said that jaathis became linked to varna from the dharmashastra or late-vedic period; and became rigidified in the smrithis.

The Arya Samaj says that varna (in the context of jaati or occupation) was assigned to a child after he completed his education in a gurukulam.

It may be possible that different kingdoms followed different models, since there are diff smrithis that contradict one another.

But the vedic model, it is argued, did not follow the birth based model. The society was classist. Meaning they followed a class system, which allowed movement from one class to another.

Example: A leader of the tribe was elected. One example is Gautama Buddha's father Suddodhana who was elected as a leader. Another example is the the atharva verse 3.4.2 (tvam visho vrnatam rajanya...pradisha: pancha devi:..ugro vi bhaja vasuni) which says a king was designated or elected (pradishati = elect(ed) / declared / designated) probably from a class of warriors...if you can show any vedic verse that mentions heredity kingship, that will be good. Similarly, if you can provide vedic verses mentioning jaatis are by birth, that will be good too.

Imo, if you were to go by the vedic model, then indeed it wud be very difficult to find shudra jaati (shudra occupations).

Also going by what is practical or practically found, i think so far most of india has been following the vedic model of jaati-not-by-birth model, and not the dharmashastra jaati-by-birth model. There are all kinds of warrior shrenis, tribal confedrations, so-called low castes had become kings and vice-versa, genetics shows intermingling, and so on.....if truly we had followed the rigid dharmashastra model, i don't think all this wud have been possible.



Reg Samskaras:

In the ancient hindu society, all hindu were required to perform sanskaras, whether it was pre-natal or post-natal.

Please note that several shakas of the vedas disappeared. The dharmashastras were supposedly based on the shakas that survived.

No one even knows if there were original rituals assigned to certain mantras or sayings in the vedas.

Example: a verse in the atharva says "being happy in mind...give birth to children for me, your husband". It is an invitation, from a husband to a wife. It is suggested that some kind of a ceremony might have been performed on this special occassion (For details, refer to the book: Hindu Samskaras by Rajbali Pandey). But no one knows what the ceremony wud have involved.

Its said that some sort of primitive rituals must have been performed, which later got enhanced, and much later became codified in the dharmashastras. Some verses (and rituals associated with it) survived, some did not. The way the rituals were performed also must have undergone transformation, it might not even resemble the original in any form.

One example is the Vivaha samskara that became designed as a samskara in the dharmashastras. It partook some specific verses and rituals and became enhanced later (like thali was not there, but added later). Since the smrithis also vary from kingdom to kingdom, the vivaha sanskaras vary regionally. Like a Marathi wedding is not similar to a Tamil wedding.

You say that

the shastras enjoin some ceremonies based on varna to be done even before child is 6 years old. This is possible only when we accept the previous birth and that our present birth and qualities etc., are a result of our actions done during earlier births. This means varna is decided by birth only

But you have not taken into account that ceremonies were developed over time. Rituals transformed, became more and more enhanced, and evolved over time. Varnas became associated with rituals only in the dharmashastra-smrithi period.

Regards.

 

[pbkhema]

The discussion chapter in Santhi Parva of Mahabaratha clearly makes us understand that at that time the Varnasramam was not there
The varnasramam arose like in all ancient socities by classing persons with the nature of the work they do
In our country it has developed in a lopsided way to Jaati

Now a days with the jaati culture being rampant a "Brahmin is born"But does he live to the rigid rules which govern a brahmin?
One of the late Acharyas either of Sringeri or Kanchi ( I do not exactly remember) had said in the present age a born brahmin to be a brahmin should earn his living out of his learning /studies and use his learning or study for his living.If he does Trade or moneylending or military activities he will never be a brahmin.Being a farmer can be condoned.
This is the gist of what I have read.

 

[happyhindu]

The discussion chapter in Santhi Parva of Mahabaratha clearly makes us understand that at that time the Varnasramam was not there
The varnasramam arose like in all ancient socities by classing persons with the nature of the work they do
In our country it has developed in a lopsided way to Jaati

Now a days with the jaati culture being rampant a "Brahmin is born"But does he live to the rigid rules which govern a brahmin?
One of the late Acharyas either of Sringeri or Kanchi ( I do not exactly remember) had said in the present age a born brahmin to be a brahmin should earn his living out of his learning /studies and use his learning or study for his living.If he does Trade or moneylending or military activities he will never be a brahmin.Being a farmer can be condoned.
This is the gist of what I have read.

The mahabharat is really interesting.

Bhishma procured brides for kuru princes in all forms allowed to obtain brides. All the following forms of vivaha sanskaras are mentioned in the mahabharat:

a) Brahma vivaha (gifting daughter to a righteous man).

b) Asura vivaha (giving daughter in return for money or any form of shulka).

c) Rakshasa vivaha (kidnapping a woman, or obtaining wives as war booties by waging wars and conquering women).

d) Gandharva vivaha (man and woman choosing each other on their own, also includes the swayamvara ceremony).

e) Prajapatya Vivaha (gifting daughter away to the groom on a prelaid condition, to perform civic and religious duties together).

i have no idea if the following were mentioned in the Mahabharat, if they are please do let me know:

a) Paisacha vivaha (bride is drugged, intoxicated or made unconscious, union is consummated without her consent, and later a wedding ceremony takes place. Its the most condemned form of vivaha in all smrithis, yet considered legitimate).

b) Arsa vivaha (groom gives a pair of kine to bride's father to perform sacrifice and obtains bride - this also involve bride price but the diff is that the pair of kine is to be used for the purpose of sacrifice only).

c) Daiva vivaha (brides, right from princely patrons to slave people, were given away to priests in return for performing sacrifices or some ceremonies, as fees).

And suprisingly, despite considering the paisacha, rakshasa, asura and gandharva forms of wedding as aprasasta (unapproved) forms of marriage, they are still considered legitimate by all the smrithis.

I got all of this from the book, Hindu Sanskaras, by Rajbali Pandey, page 153-233.

And also read that (suprisingly), the old writers did not prohibit swagotra weddings, only the later day writers of smrithis did.

The word 'Gotra' in the vedas was rarely used and only used as a cow-pen (Vedic Index by Roth, with verses, pp.235, 236, 240).

The smrithis of Apastamba, Kausika, Baudhyayana originally did not prohibit swagotra marriages. Perhaps it still meant only cow or asset division at that time. They only avoid the same pravara.

However, it seems, there came a time when the dharmasutras became prominent (time period not clear, Rajbali Pandey only mentions it was the AD times), and even the law-books took a back seat. Swagotra and Sapinda weddings came to be prohibitted only from there on.

But even then, according to the book Hindu Sanskara by Rajbali Pandey, swagothra weddings were permitted beyond 7th generation of father and 5th generation of mother.

Rajbali Pandey says it was the later smrithis that declared swagotra weddings invalid and illegitimate. Its not clear why it was declared that way and how it happened. And its also not clear if the new writers over-ruled the laws of the old writers (Apastamba, Kausika, Baudhyayana). But there was something like a uniform blanket ban on swagotra weddings from this time period onwards. It looks very possible that the context and meaning of gotra also changed during this period. It no longer meant cow-pens and cow-divisions. This clearly was the AD times.

So, youngsters who have ended up falling in love with someone of the same gotra, maybe you can try to seek consent from the elders by citing the old smrithis of Apastamba, Kausika and Baudhyayana