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Brahmins for Bharathanatyam and Saastriya sangeetham

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Dear Ms.Harini,

I am taking up your side of the argument :)

There is one perpetual question... Do we need cabbages or roses?

Of course we need both of them!

The cabbage will satisfy our hunger and the requirement of the body while the rose will give joy to the mind and its aesthetic requirement by its beauty.

All for body and nothing for beauty will breed only beasts in human form- devoid of any finer feelings.

Why do we have 64 refined and highly evolved arts?

Why were the ancient kings made to learn all these arts?

Couldn't they have ruled their countries without learning these arts?

If ordinary people who do nothing more than earn a livelihood do not have time for arts, how did the busy kings and princes manage to find time to master these arts?

with best wishes,
Mrs.V.R.
 
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There is no monopoly on classical arts.

when i was abroad in canada, there was a vibrant carnatic and bharathnatyam community, and it was maintained almost entirely by sri lankan tamils almost all of whom are not brahmins. their dedication towards it is impressive. far more impressive than some of the TB communities I have come across also.

Dear Sri "Prasanth1",

Yes, no one can claim monopoly on any art including Music and Dance. In fact Bharathanatyam which was known as Sadhir was protected and propagated by the Devadasi Community of the past.The same goes for Carnatic Music too. If you read the inscriptions chiseled around Sri Bruhadeeswara Temple in Tanjore you will find the names of Devadasis brought from various places by Emperor Sri Rajaraja for the purpose of performing the duties in the Temple including Sadhir.

Regards,
Brahmanyan,
Bangalore
 
was protected and propagated by the Devadasi Community of the past.
Hi, I remember a grand old movie with Ramachandran called Sabapathy (1941). In that movie a private dance concert gets arranged and in the dialog the concert gets referred to as தேவடியா கச்சேரி very casually.

Cheers!
 
Dear Sri "Prasanth1",

Yes, no one can claim monopoly on any art including Music and Dance. In fact Bharathanatyam which was known as Sadhir was protected and propagated by the Devadasi Community of the past.The same goes for Carnatic Music too. If you read the inscriptions chiseled around Sri Bruhadeeswara Temple in Tanjore you will find the names of Devadasis brought from various places by Emperor Sri Rajaraja for the purpose of performing the duties in the Temple including Sadhir.

Regards,
Brahmanyan,
Bangalore
Perhaps because of this, orthodox brahmins were against their women learning dance or giving music performance. Smt. D.K. Pattammal, in one interview, told how her father used to prohibit her mother from even singing "oonjal" and "nalungu" songs for marriages saying those are not to be done. DKP herself would not have been known to the world but for the headmistress of her school who pleaded with DKP's father and made her participate in a contest.
 
I agree with you in your statement that T.Brahmins do not monopolize the divine arts of music and dance, any more.

Most of my students in Sangeetha Naatyaalayaa in Visakhapatnam, belonged to Kerala and Andhra and very few were Tamil Brahmins.

Yes...the similarities I have seen with the Malayalees is that like the sri lankan Tamils, they do not have significant # of brahmins yet the influence of classical arts is strong for them. Unfortunately I feel in TN the caste squabbles has intruded on how average people perceive these arts.
 
visa,

i think, a group of 1000 bharatanatyam dancers, takes the art to a different plane altogether.

beauty, i think is in the eyes of the beholder. what may seem as calisthenics to some of the folks, to me, appeared a cohesive expression of movements and an ode to an emperor long gone.

what was even more amazing was that the entire concert was in tamil. i have increasingly found, that tamil concerts, whether carnatic or bharatanatyam, has a sweetness, which appears to be one shade less in other languages.

i have ofcourse heard that art has no language. but better still if the language is tamil.

the cynic in me suspects that the presence of MK there at thanjavur, went a long way to discredit Padma's endeavour, in the eyes of many of our castes. in this context, i second prasanth's sentiment, that the intense casteism in tamil nadu has blinded our eyes to the beauty of tamil in its art form to the TBs.
 
We are living in the 21st century- not in 1940s!

You all will accept the space travel which was unknown in the 1940s.

you will accept the P.Cs and laptops which did not exist in the 1940s.

But when it comes to accepting arts, you continue to brand it to particular community and class of people- in a degrading manner.

Well, even if these arts were nurtured and kept alive by DEVA DASIS, please remember they were the servnts of GODS and not of mortal men.

Never degrade a person/ a community/ a caste/ a race of people.

God has given nobody that much freedom and liberty, to judge and brand fellow human beings.
 
None of you gentlemen have replied to any of the questions posed by me in the thread # 51!

But all of you joined hands as usual, in a bout of free-for-all-mud-flinging, in all possible tangential directions, on everybody in sight.

Sabapathi may be a "grand old movie" in the eyes of a few persons! Personally I feel it was a silly slapstick comedy-degrading the fellow human beings-be it a servant or a person devoted to arts.

If screened today, the film will run 'out of the theater' and Not 'in the theater!'
 
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Perhaps because of this, orthodox brahmins were against their women learning dance or giving music performance. Smt. D.K. Pattammal, in one interview, told how her father used to prohibit her mother from even singing "oonjal" and "nalungu" songs for marriages saying those are not to be done. DKP herself would not have been known to the world but for the headmistress of her school who pleaded with DKP's father and made her participate in a contest.

"Sangom" is correct. Smt.D.K.Pattammal was one of the earliest Brahmin lady Carnatic musician to perform on a public platform. Till then most of the Carnatic Musicians were from Devadasi Community.Interestingly public Kutcheries by Carnatic singers were performed in the residences of rich people like Zamindars and Mittadars. Similarly if we look into the history of Tamil Cinemas initially almost all the lady artists in the films were from this community only. It was people like Director K.Subrahmanyam who changed the course of this trend by bringing actress like S.D.Subbulakshmi, into the field, which was followed by the entry of K.R.Chellam, Santhanalakshmi and others from Brahmin Community in Cinema.
Musicologist and research scholar Dr.B.M.Sundaram son of great Tavil Vidhwan Needamangalam Meenakshisundaram Pillai has written good books on the subject of important part played by Devadasi community in preserving and propagating Music and Dance in South.

Brahmanyan,
Bangalore.
 
Devar Adiyaar= servants of Gods.

Later got changed to the nasty word used by one among us, which I don't even want to put in black and white!

This is the most misinterpreted and misused word in the history of Tamil Language.

In fact every one of us SHOULD be a DEVAR ADIYAAR and obey Him with implicit faith.

But not only do we disobey and disrespect God, we also disrespect people who obey and respect God.

Branding a person is so easy!

After all India is free country and we have freedom of speech which allows to prod, provoke, insult, brand, humiliate and shred to pieces (with words sharper than swords) the people around us.

That the persons-who had braved such filthy comments-and did yeoman service in the preservation of the classical arts should be talked about in such a manner is simply revolting and is unfit for the so called highly-evolved and educated-race-of-persons, we claim to be!

Remember: To "belittle" another person is to "be little" in yourself!
 
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Dear Mr. Kunjuppu,

I did not get distracted by the presence of politicians in the dance presentation by
Dr. Padma and party.

The cluster of a large number of dancers, the inability to concentrate on any one of them for more than a few seconds and missing their facial expressions etc disturbed me from enjoying the show.

Well, as you say the beauty lies in the eyes of the beholder!

May be I am far too involved in dances to enjoy the show as a layman would.

Tamil (I don't mean the Madras Kodum Thamizh) is indeed a very sweet language -full of rhyming words-best suited for music and dance.

with warm regards,
V.R
 
Just the realization as to which community now rules Tamilnadu will make better sense prevail. I am not saying that the fine arts absolutely belong to Brahmins. I am suggesting that Brahmins should strive to possess majority stake in it. Most of us have this 'All Cabbage' attitude and so are not molding in to a full rounded personality. Brahmins girls are not anymore in cocoons and Ammanji boys are conspicuous by their absence. The newly earned liberation has given them the thrust to break free but they are without steering to propel towards a destination. The Arts have the potential to steer them.


1000 X Bharathanatyam = Mass Drill is correct. But Guinness people do not mind about it. Any suggestion as to how big show can be made with Bharathanatyam?
Dear Ms.Harini,
Why do we have 64 refined and highly evolved arts?

Why were the ancient kings made to learn all these arts?

Couldn't they have ruled their countries without learning these arts?

If ordinary people who do nothing more than earn a livelihood do not have time for arts, how did the busy kings and princes manage to find time to master these arts?

with best wishes,
Mrs.V.R.
 
....Later got changed to the nasty word used by one among us, which I don't even want to put in black and white!

[...]

Branding a person is so easy!

Wait a minute Mrs. VR, are you talking about me? All I did was cite a dialog so casually spoken in a movie to show this word did not have the nasty connotation it now has, that is all. I did not brand or degrade anyone. I also wanted to show that Brahmins were not the ones to safeguard and nurture the arts. I only have the utmost respect for the women who were forced into Devar Adiyar status by the rich and powerful of the day. Even the great M.S. had to suffer a lot of humiliation from the likes of GNB. But that is another story.

Please madam, do not read too much into my comment.

Thank you ...
 
Wait a minute Mrs. VR, are you talking about me? All I did was cite a dialog so casually spoken in a movie to show this word did not have the nasty connotation it now has, that is all. I did not brand or degrade anyone. I also wanted to show that Brahmins were not the ones to safeguard and nurture the arts. I only have the utmost respect for the women who were forced into Devar Adiyar status by the rich and powerful of the day. Even the great M.S. had to suffer a lot of humiliation from the likes of GNB. But that is another story.

Please madam, do not read too much into my comment.

Thank you ...
Whether we call them as "dEvar aTiyAr" or "dEvadAsi" or by any other name, I feel they did a very memorable job of preserving and nurturing music and dance. I also feel that they must have had complete involvement, an aptitude to perfectionism, etc., besides some selectivity of only those who promised to be outstanding being taught. That gave us many good performers in those days.

Today, perhaps because of the mass turn-out in both carnatic music and bharatanatyam, standards are going down, in the name of innovativeness, fusion, etc., and the fact that anyone with enough money, even with least aptitude also can give "arangetram" and grab performance opportunities too. I remember the graceful movements of Kum. (Baby) Kamala, Sai-Subbulakshmi, etc., of those days. Some performances even as pure bharatanatyam, nowadays, is more of calisthenics as VR said.

Regarding carnatic music also, there is marked deterioration in the standards of performance, the most marked one being faltering "Sruti" even in the case of some very highly regarded musicians; this was not heard of in the earlier years except in one case of a genius otherwise. "swara" rendering - manOdharma - also is quite jarring to the ears very often because the swarasthAnams are different and the pronounced swaras are different; each goes its own way!

Added to all these, it is a fact that cm or bn as a means of livelihood is not possible now, except for some fortunate few who could find a nice slot somewhere. Since the audience also has spread wider to those with meagre knowledge of music/dance, there is no automatic filtering out of the less talented ones. Finally, we now have the trend where artistes who once shone as jewels, but have lost almost all that ability due to aging, still use the "goodwill" and crave to "entertain" their audience with what can very aptly be called the ghosts of their old, scintillating performances; they probably feel young at heart still, but their bodies and throats do not cooperate with such thinking of theirs !
 
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Personalities like Clevelamd Sundaram, Nalli Kuppuswamy live more on CM and BN. Their other ventures have a sort of vertical integration to this. I feel that these people exploit the artists and earn money and reputation. They could have promoted this as a Cricket. Somehow they cater only to Rasikas and are not in a mood to create Rasikas.
Added to all these, it is a fact that cm or bn as a means of livelihood is not possible now, except for some fortunate few who could find a nice slot somewhere. Since the audience also has spread wider to those with meagre knowledge of music/dance, there is no automatic filtering out of the less talented ones. Finally, we now have the trend where artistes who once shone as jewels, but have lost almost all that ability due to aging, still use the "goodwill" and crave to "entertain" their audience with what can very aptly be called the ghosts of their old, scintillating performances; they probably feel young at heart still, but their bodies and throats do not cooperate with such thinking of theirs !
 
Dear Ms. Harini,

The questions in #50 were put on your behalf and were not directed to you!

1000 member strong dance recital will be fit only for Guinness Record. Isn't their motto "More the merrier!"

A dance recital by 1, 2 or 3 persons is best to watch. The number can be safely increased to 5 or 7 or even 9. Beyond that perfect coordination becomes very difficult.

This is not film dancing where a few movements are sufficient to perform all dance numbers.

with best wishes,
V.R.
 
Respected Mr. Nara,

Whether or not you are aware of it, your comments carry a lot of weight and attract the attention of every one.

So it will be better if you do not comment in an off handed manner (or lightly) on a serious issue.

I thank you for your clarification.

with warm regards,
V.R.
 
Respected Mr. Sangom,

You too (like Mr.Nara) are always in the lime light getting the attention of all the readers. So you too owe the readers the answers they seek!

I agree with your elaboration of the current standard of the performing artists.

But if only cuckoos should sing, the forest will be a very silent place!

It is OK if these people have minor defects AS LONG AS they do not start giving public concerts, where we should maintain high standards.

Previously artists used to devote their entire lives for the art they had taken up.

But now a days artists need an additional profession to fall back up on, since they can't depend on their earning from their arts.

So their attention and time are divided between two or more fields. That is why they are unable to achieve the perfection of the artists of the by gone days.

with warm regards,
V.R.
 
Mr. NSP,

Please clarify the differences between "catering for the rasikas" and " creating rasikas"?

We can only lead a horse to the water but we can't drink the water for the sake of the horse!

I know "Differentiation" and "Integration" but I am hearing about a "Vertical Integration" for the first time!

What is a Vertical Integration? Is there a corresponding "Horizontal Integration" too?

Looking forward to you explanation,

with best wishes
V.R.
 
It is OK if words get corrupted!

(example: The noble word Devar Adiyar getting corrupted to a filthy word with a social stigma)

But let not our minds also get corrupted similarly!
 
Dear Mrs. VR, Just a couple of clarifications...

...Whether or not you are aware of it, your comments carry a lot of weight and attract the attention of every one.

So it will be better if you do not comment in an off handed manner (or lightly) on a serious issue.
I am aware my comments probably attract attention as I don't shy away from expressing contrary opinions on controversial topics, but the "carry lot of weight" part, I appreciate you think that, but not so.

My earlier comments were made in all seriousness, at least in my mind. It was not an off-handed comment. Once again I repeat, the two points I wanted to convey were, (a) the words change in meaning even within a short period of time, and (b) it was not Brahmins who kept the arts alive.

It is OK if words get corrupted!

(example: The noble word Devar Adiyar getting corrupted to a filthy word with a social stigma)

But let not our minds also get corrupted similarly!
What is a word anyway but sound waves? It takes on meaning in our minds. The late comedian George Carlin's bit on seven filthy words is something to think about. He showed how an innocuous phrase like "prick your finger" can become very filthy by simply rearranging the words. The English word "prostitute" gets used without much ado, but the word you object to conjures up filthy notions, why? Social stigma, and there is a lot of that -- I agree, must be attached to the clients of these unfortunate women who are trying to make an honest living. I only have the utmost respect for these women.

Cheers!
 
Respected Mr. Sangom,

You too (like Mr.Nara) are always in the lime light getting the attention of all the readers. So you too owe the readers the answers they seek!
Mrs. VR,

Thank you for your compliments. But I am (still) under the impression that this forum allows expression of one's opinions, even if opinionated in a few (or some) cases and that it may not be always necessary or possible to give the readers "the answers they seek"!?

I agree with your elaboration of the current standard of the performing artists.

But if only cuckoos should sing, the forest will be a very silent place!

It is OK if these people have minor defects AS LONG AS they do not start giving public concerts, where we should maintain high standards.
Whatever I said was in respect of public performances, otherwise where was the need to say things like "highly regarded musicians", "performance opportunities", "artistes who once shone as jewels", etc.?

I do not think there is any case for looking at my comments as applying to people who may be singing/dancing for private audience only.
 
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... The English word "prostitute" gets used without much ado, but the word you object to conjures up filthy notions, why? Social stigma, and there is a lot of that -- I agree, must be attached to the clients of these unfortunate women who are trying to make an honest living. I only have the utmost respect for these women.

Cheers!
Shri Nara,

In an economic survey published under the aegis of the University of Madras, under "occupational statistics" the words "brothel women" has been used without any stigma. So, there is reason to believe that the stigma came to be attached later on only. (Otherwise the survey would have grouped them under "others", probably.)
 
Whether we call them as "dEvar aTiyAr" or "dEvadAsi" or by any other name, I feel they did a very memorable job of preserving and nurturing music and dance. I also feel that they must have had complete involvement, an aptitude to perfectionism, etc., besides some selectivity of only those who promised to be outstanding being taught. That gave us many good performers in those days.

Today, perhaps because of the mass turn-out in both carnatic music and bharatanatyam, standards are going down, in the name of innovativeness, fusion, etc., and the fact that anyone with enough money, even with least aptitude also can give "arangetram" and grab performance opportunities too. I remember the graceful movements of Kum. (Baby) Kamala, Sai-Subbulakshmi, etc., of those days. Some performances even as pure bharatanatyam, nowadays, is more of calisthenics as VR said.

Regarding carnatic music also, there is marked deterioration in the standards of performance, the most marked one being faltering "Sruti" even in the case of some very highly regarded musicians; this was not heard of in the earlier years except in one case of a genius otherwise. "swara" rendering - manOdharma - also is quite jarring to the ears very often because the swarasthAnams are different and the pronounced swaras are different; each goes its own way!

Added to all these, it is a fact that cm or bn as a means of livelihood is not possible now, except for some fortunate few who could find a nice slot somewhere. Since the audience also has spread wider to those with meagre knowledge of music/dance, there is no automatic filtering out of the less talented ones. Finally, we now have the trend where artistes who once shone as jewels, but have lost almost all that ability due to aging, still use the "goodwill" and crave to "entertain" their audience with what can very aptly be called the ghosts of their old, scintillating performances; they probably feel young at heart still, but their bodies and throats do not cooperate with such thinking of theirs !

hi sangom,

i am somewhat surprised by the nostalgic sounding, 'those were the good old days' reply from you.

thanks to better technology, we are now able to detect 'deterioration' of sruti, which we might not have been able to before.

folks like pattanam subramania iyer has not been recorder. some other minimally. even gnb recordings are the old analog variety with a lot of background noises. in that context current recordings highlight any 'fault' instantly and magnifies them.

i am quite sure kamala or gnb or madurai 'tripped' in their own time. except there are no recordings of the same. in my youth, i have been to one gnb concert, and witnessed with gusto, (thanks to my uncle next to me), gnb imbibing soma from kooja every 15 minutes or so. the concert noticeably got more creative with each swallow. :) i guess that this process is out of question for bharatanatyam dancers.

nowadays, the chief source of income for any classical music, is through tuition. my cousin (of the 1000 dancers fame) has about 100 students, and a few in the u.s. to whom she visits once a year, and performs arangetram (another source of lumpsum gratuity).

classical arts are treated much the same way in the west. an elite entertainment. there is no way to compare their popularity to that of the pop music groups or cinema.

one interesting phenomenon is the drama theatre. it is very strong in england, and attracts top notch talents. hollywood actors take it as an honour to be able to participate in english theatre dramas, and do so for pittance. our theatre glory days lasted till the 70s when manohar folded. tks brothers folded a few years earlier. nowadays we have only light weight stuff often urban middle class oriented, and out of tune with the masses.

my point, is that there is no deterioration of standards, and there is more popularization, even though in tamil nadu, it is still majority TBs. other communities have to get in too, in proportion of their numbers. soon i hope the stigma associated will be removed, for the conservative elements of all communities.

also, i am against the so called sampradaya purity. art has to evolve, like anything else. one must remember that any production is a time stamped output, and there is no reason, why new winds of change and influence cannot be incorporated. for a while in the 70s, padmini came up with the concept of dance dramas, which were awesome. but those too have gone wayside,

personally, i like the fusion stuff. not all. but some. let us leave it at that.

as always, you are a delight to correspond with. God Bless.
 
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