Change of gotram After Marriage

[Chintana]

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Dear Sri Anbu,

Thank you for posing this question. When we all know that it is the Spirit that is eternal, why waste time discussing the Shell (which is the body)?

Great question.

The answer, at least to me is, for all Souls to learn and develop there needs to be an environment that is conducive for such growth. The environment is usually stronger that most people's will power so it is important that we pay attention to the environment within which we plan to live and grow. Currently women do not have an environment in India where they can develop their potential for as intelligent, mature human beings on a practical level and as Children of God on a spiritual level.

Usually in the case of any exploiter/exploited situation the aggressor never feels the pain of the victim. If S/He did, that person would not be the aggressor. The British felt it was their natural position to rule India. That didn't make it right. Similarly men feel that it is their natural position to do whatever they do without examining the consequences for the women around them (there are women who do the same as well but this point is about inflictors in general). When the consequences do not affect men adversely they tend to think there is no problem.

Nothing can be farther from the truth.

If we cannot create environmental conditions for women where they can live and realize their potential as Souls seeking liberation/Children of God/etc, I don't see how the community can progress. If men don't see that women are in a position where they have to work around the male egos in their families then we don't even have a beginning.

Dear Chintana,

Hari Om. I am quite impressed with your detailed arguments on the genetics question to a well researched posting by Sri R.Venkatraman. I don't know how far I will be relevant in saying this, but because of the play of Karma and Reincarnation, you, Sri Venkatraman or I or any one else, were born innumberable times in alternate sexes, in different varnas, as even animals and plants and so on as the maturing karmas of ours have dictated. In such case which one of the two sexes are we really are? This body happens to be a vehicle for us to enjoy and suffer our fruits of karma. But we can use the same body not only to do Sat Karma but also surrender to a Guru and learn from him Aathma Gnanam and get released from the cycle of birth and death. So I was wondering why we should be getting so engrossed on the sex part of us that is only transitory. In any case I did not find Sri R.V's posting was even remotely chauvinistic, not that you implied it on him. Do I make sense to you?

With Narayana Smrithi
Anbu

 

[Chintana]

Dear Sri Venkataraman,

Thank you for your compliments.

I admire and appreciate every reference to the Vedas and Scriptures that scholars like yourself and Anbu make.

At the same time I feel it is important to open up those Vedic concepts for discussion and debate so that we may live our lives as intelligent human beings and not automatons that meekly concede the "greatness" of Vedas without understanding why they are great.

If there are certain things that work in favor of spiritual evolution then we must study the context under which such things work. Every generation should find its own answers to questions that are important to human kind and our generation need not be an exception.

So while I respect the Scriptures I am not over-awed by them. I hope that does not come across as offensive to anybody. I am here to question, to understand.

When we discussed the body, I don't believe we talked about the actual frame of the body as we did the social conditions under which that body has to operate.

Here is where I think I sense a confusion.

When we discuss material CONDITIONS we are not talking about the physical frame per se. We are discussing the factors that influence the mind in a positive way or a negative way. You'd agree with me when I say that nobody feels like thinking about God or attaining God when treated badly. The word 'badly' can mean different things for different people. In extreme cases it is physical abuse but in other quite 'normal' cases it translates to things like not taking the woman's point of view in decision making. Or not respecting the woman's ideas, feelings and views on things.

If men took these things seriously I doubt whether there would be such a big Eve-teasing problem in the country. For those men in this forum who believe that physical things are immaterial I wish to express that it is utterly humiliating to be at the receiving end of an Eve-teaser. One feels filthy and dirty beyond description - and for no particular reason other than just being a woman.

Please tell me, if I go out to work/school by bus and I am hounded by Eve-teasers do you think I will feel like praying when I get back home?

If I feel that I am too tired to make preparations for the next day's Homam do you think my father/brother/husband will be happy about it?

If I feel like I want to pursue higher studies because I am good at a certain subject do you think my father or my brother (if older) will not tell me that I should marry first and if my husband permits I can study further?

These issues are not necessarily related. But I can think of countless such issues where women's lives are tied strictly around men's lives. But in the interest of space I restrict myself.

The great Manu, the law-giver, equated women with Shudras saying that they are incapable of anything and must be 'kept under control'.

Do you honestly believe that such ideas do not influence Brahmin women's attitudes towards the religion/philosophy/community?

Or do you think that by ignoring the issue or looking the other way the problem is going to get resolved?

Or do you think that women, in this day and age, are going to be motivated to choose a position of subordination?

If religion and social customs don't make them feel good about being part of the community I will state right here and right now that there is no hope for the community.

It is necessary to understand what the scriptures mean for women too. Men tend to be invisible to their own position because they are getting the better end of the deal.

It is all too comforting to slip into the folds of Sanskrit verses and concepts without stopping to examine what exactly they mean and to whom.

I trust and hope that this esteemed forum will show the way in opening up those unexamined ideas.

Everything is learning!

I hope everyone know we have many discussions and many threads going on in this forum to discuss and understand the given ‘Topic’ towards knowing/understand and further refine the subject matter we are dealing with for ourselves and for the community as a whole.

I feel it is quiet healthy to discuss / argue on any subject which we have taken for discussion. If a subject matter is ‘Athman’ then the discussion would be around ‘Athman’, if it is about ‘Bhakthi’ then the discussion would be around ‘Bhakthi’ so as here the topic of discussion is ‘Gothram’ hence we need to go for some scientific search or whatever for that matter, just for the sake of understanding.

I truly agree with Sri Anbu’s view, even I have mentioned in one of my posting in this thread as “The point here is not about the physical structure or frame of male body or female body….” As per the view of Sri Anbu, the body is to enjoy particular Vaasana it can be either male or female this point too I have quoted, as “Jeeva is neuter, there is nothing called Male or Female Jeeva!” Every Jeeva’s body in a given ‘Jenma’ would depend on its Vaasana and to enjoy that Vaasana it needs a body! It can be a human body or animal body! And many more…indeed every topic we take for discussion is a very deep and wide topic! I would say spending our thoughts in a given topic would enrich our understanding. But of course we know what was said by Sri Adi Shankara, when asked to him, what is his final word/finding to this world?

“Yadhuktham Grantha Kotibhi Pravakashyami, Bhramha Sathyam Jagathmithya Jeevo Bhramvaiva na paraha:”

“There are innumerable sciences, innumerable ‘Vedas’, innumerable findings! But what all say is that the ultimate reality is the ‘Bhrmhan’ and the ultimate misunderstanding is considering this physical realm as truth that is because of the confusion of Jeeva”

(Some one may give a perfect and exact translation to the above said Vaakyam, but I have tried what I can in translating. The point is to understand what was told by Sri Adi Shankara thro this Vaakyam – ‘Sentence’)

Adi Shankara revealed this Vaakyam after knowing all the science, after discussing various topics with various people, after many dharga vaadham we know this very well! My point here is, yes we should realize in this Janma, “Janthoonaam Dhurlabham Pumsvam” [being human being is a highest form of physical attainment, and it is very ‘Dhrulabham’ rare, so don’t waste this Janma]– said by Sri Adi Shankara in ‘Viveka Choodamani’ , this continues but am not going to that topic here. But the bottom line is we should also know/ understand what had been taken for discussion at least to its satisfactory extent!

Chintana is a great person, I infer her yearning for knowing and sharing.
J

Hari Om
RV

 

[silverfox]

Bravo, Chintana! Well said. My compliments! I admire your clarity of thought and a powerful argument as to why women are not treated right in our society.
Chinata for President!!


[Usually in the case of any exploiter/exploited situation the aggressor never feels the pain of the victim. If S/He did, that person would not be the aggressor. The British felt it was their natural position to rule India. That didn't make it right. Similarly men feel that it is their natural position to do whatever they do without examining the consequences for the women around them (there are women who do the same as well but this point is about inflictors in general). When the consequences do not affect men adversely they tend to think there is no problem.

Nothing can be farther from the truth.]

 

[Chintana]

Thank you Silverfox.

In defense of men I should add, however, that there is probably no intentional malice towards women. It is just that years of doing the same thing without questioning the context and being aware of changing conditions has led to a sense of complacence.

When such issues came up with my male friends some of them tended to treat is as an offence to their ego. I hope that is not the case here.

If we get into the egoism of things without focusing on the issues we would lose perspective.

As the old saying goes (or is it the old cliche?)...all change begins from within. We must deserve and then desire. If we as a community aspire for a better place in society than what we are currently accorded then we must prove that we are better indeed and must be able to defend our philosophies, thoughts and actions to whomever may choose to question them.

Bravo, Chintana! Well said. My compliments! I admire your clarity of thought and a powerful argument as to why women are not treated right in our society.
Chinata for President!!


[Usually in the case of any exploiter/exploited situation the aggressor never feels the pain of the victim. If S/He did, that person would not be the aggressor. The British felt it was their natural position to rule India. That didn't make it right. Similarly men feel that it is their natural position to do whatever they do without examining the consequences for the women around them (there are women who do the same as well but this point is about inflictors in general). When the consequences do not affect men adversely they tend to think there is no problem.

Nothing can be farther from the truth.]

 

[RVenkatraman]

Dear Chintana Ji / All

Sorry I had to hide out for some time (work hectic!) anyhow manage to find some time and J happy to see your response and followed by some other additions to this thread! Before we continue with this I would like to just make some points clearer for the sake of other audience to this thread. Because perception dependents on the perceiver, somebody might think we are in a debate of controversies and even might think have quarrelling about chauvinisms or performing a gender wrestling!

1. We have a clear vision of what we are talking about and we have great reverence and respect for each and every one in this forum.
2. The topic is primarily about divisions amongst Brahmin community, lineage and the purpose or concept of ‘Gothram’

Chintana Ji: With all humbleness, honestly I am not a scholar! I would say we all are discussing to understand. Yes, anyone is an idiot if not developed the urge for knowing by querying ‘vicharam’. It is not me saying this word ‘idiot’ but all the learned scholars and I don’t find a stronger/sharper word than this to express politely J Query/Question the urge for ‘Why?’ - Alone made us today to evolve to the state of human beings both physically and mentally. So I really appreciate your point mentioned that we should open up and question what is said in our Shastras or for that matter wherever/whoever.

I felt we are slightly deviating away from our context hence the above 2 points to rememberJ. Anyhow what you are talking about is a social issue; different issue; I honestly listen to your concerns but Shastra cannot do any thing with ragging, ill- treatment, disrespect etc., It will say what dharma is; it is up to the individual to follow it. As parents, it is their responsibility to make a human as god-human and further it is the individuals to be in that state. (For our understanding I am quoting this from what a great scholar Swami Chinmayananda Ji said/classifies. “Animal-human, human-human, god-human).

No need to go up to the level of saying “that nobody feels like thinking about God or attaining God when treated badly” – thinking simply - for a child playing food ball the play is more than god and worship, for a starving person food is more than all. So ‘bad treatment’ here is just another state.

I would say your concerns should be put in this way ‘Stronger vs. Meeker’ [S vs. V]. We can find bad treatment in all levels in a society amongst these [S vs. V]; it is not tagged to ‘Brahmin-women’ or ‘Women’ alone.

How many land-lords treat badly/abuse (both physically and emotionally) their workers [male/female]?
In how many houses MIL treat badly the DIL and in how many houses DIL treat badly the MIL?
Can we then say all MIL are egoistic or it is only because of the MIL the entire wisdom of all the DILs are perished?
Or DIL are egoistic?
How many fathers treat their children badly (I mean it, as I have heard /seen things like parents killing/ humiliating and child abuse of their own children) so can we say Parents are egoistic or totally bad? No! It is happening everywhere in all levels in a society irrespective of the sex (Male or Female). But I would surely accept Females are the most affected and vulnerable. This is a different issue; we can discuss on this separately.

I agree with your point ‘women's lives are tied strictly around men's lives’ this is because of the assumed supremacy of Male (Note, there are many cases of supremacy of Female too exist haha) overcoming from this bond needs both Women and Men to understand each other. It is not that because of Shastras or because of what Manu said all Men or like that! Philosophically freewill is what guiding us, if a stronger person who does not have any code or ethics can be destructive with his own freewill (animal-human), if the same stronger person guided by ethics can raise to the level of Sri Sarada Devi, Sri Ramana Maharishi (god-human). Even if we take up this concern related with society, I would say the situation is changing; the present is not like what/how our Mother and Gran-Mother were. Great Men like Mohanroy, Mahakavi Bharathi came to revolutionize. Men are realizing they are equally meeker and Women are realizing they are equally stronger!!! J

Manu says:
“yathra naryastu poojyanthe thatra ramanthe devathaha:” [where women are worshiped there revels all the devethas]
In other place Manu says:
“Husband and wife are two owners of a single/same house”
How a person saying thus could contradict to his own statements! By saying or comparing women to Sudra and would emphasize on keeping her under control? I am not sure which part of Manu says this? I think that needs analysis here. You know what the problem is? We are reading our heritage through a foreigner! What foreigner says about our tradition and Shastras. Maxmuller and others are Christian missionary guys they had translated our scriptures with many ulterior motives! And we are reading it. But in fact the confusion started way back even before Britishers came to India that aided them to further fuel the confusion fire!!! Anyhow that is not the concern there. Coming to the point, our Shastra is deep in its meaning, its richness is its manifold meaning, and it is situation based. One should learn Shastra from an eligible guru then only can get the full ‘ras’ essence of the teaching else only a partial vision alone is gained. Each and ever vocabulary of Sanskrit has its own meaning, special meaning, situational meaning etc. Translating a Sanskrit text in other language might loose or twist its meaning. Anyhow I would be happy to research more on and get back to you on what you have mentioned here ‘equated women with Shudras’.

Just to add further to clarify some assumption made in previous thread: what I had mentioned and quoted from our Vedas and Shastras were not just a mimic of parrot like or papacy. Those were digested and assimilated thoughts. The purpose of quoting from Shastras is to prompt the perceiver to take it further and do research on that. We should not just stop after finishing reading, if so it would be like a gossip club, there won’t be any further cognitive progress unless we further analyze.

I will continue sharing my thoughts later.

RV

 

[Chintana]

Dear Sri Venkataraman,

Thank you for bringing the point back to Shastras vs. Social issues.

I brought up the social issue aspect of it because I felt that our scriptures have a lot to offer to the world, not just Brahmins, but their meanings have not reached people because of the social practices that have surrounded their dissemination.

People from other religions have been able to say terrible things about Hinduism because it is most visible through its practices. Unfortunately some of those practices are not egalitarian.

But let the social issues rest for now. Let us look at the Shastric prescriptions themselves.

I feel strongly in our shastras certain texts deal just with philosophical issues and do not prescribe social rules. I think these are the four Vedas, the eighteen Upanishads and the Bhagavad Gita. Other texts (I don't know all of them) prescribe rules for social living. And some of those rules are problematic. We have to discuss what those rules are with a view to understanding what we must keep and what we must change.

Gotram and counting the lineage is a social issue. Not a philosophical issue. It is based on philosophy but it is a bit of a skewed philosophy.

Hence this discussion.

Also, one point I would like to make explicit.

I am well aware of what the likes of Max Mueller and the likes have done to our religion and our minds. I ask these questions not because I am motivated by a foreigner who I think was very malicious but because I have had a chance to see the way people live in the West. They don't have rich philosophies like the way we do but goodness! the way they practice what they know is really commendable.

I feel sad we are not able to do more.

My humble opinion is that we should value that Hinduism is a personal religion but understand that we need to build a collective front to survive as a community. That collective front can come only with social practices that speak to equality.

This was the reason I raised the issue I raised, not because I am not aware of the greatness of the Scriptures or because some silly, half-witted foreigner wrote something about Hinduism.

Dear Chintana Ji / All

Sorry I had to hide out for some time (work hectic!) anyhow manage to find some time and J happy to see your response and followed by some other additions to this thread! Before we continue with this I would like to just make some points clearer for the sake of other audience to this thread. Because perception dependents on the perceiver, somebody might think we are in a debate of controversies and even might think have quarrelling about chauvinisms or performing a gender wrestling!

1. We have a clear vision of what we are talking about and we have great reverence and respect for each and every one in this forum.
2. The topic is primarily about divisions amongst Brahmin community, lineage and the purpose or concept of ‘Gothram’

Chintana Ji: With all humbleness, honestly I am not a scholar! I would say we all are discussing to understand. Yes, anyone is an idiot if not developed the urge for knowing by querying ‘vicharam’. It is not me saying this word ‘idiot’ but all the learned scholars and I don’t find a stronger/sharper word than this to express politely J Query/Question the urge for ‘Why?’ - Alone made us today to evolve to the state of human beings both physically and mentally. So I really appreciate your point mentioned that we should open up and question what is said in our Shastras or for that matter wherever/whoever.

I felt we are slightly deviating away from our context hence the above 2 points to rememberJ. Anyhow what you are talking about is a social issue; different issue; I honestly listen to your concerns but Shastra cannot do any thing with ragging, ill- treatment, disrespect etc., It will say what dharma is; it is up to the individual to follow it. As parents, it is their responsibility to make a human as god-human and further it is the individuals to be in that state. (For our understanding I am quoting this from what a great scholar Swami Chinmayananda Ji said/classifies. “Animal-human, human-human, god-human).

No need to go up to the level of saying “that nobody feels like thinking about God or attaining God when treated badly” – thinking simply - for a child playing food ball the play is more than god and worship, for a starving person food is more than all. So ‘bad treatment’ here is just another state.

I would say your concerns should be put in this way ‘Stronger vs. Meeker’ [S vs. V]. We can find bad treatment in all levels in a society amongst these [S vs. V]; it is not tagged to ‘Brahmin-women’ or ‘Women’ alone.

How many land-lords treat badly/abuse (both physically and emotionally) their workers [male/female]?
In how many houses MIL treat badly the DIL and in how many houses DIL treat badly the MIL?
Can we then say all MIL are egoistic or it is only because of the MIL the entire wisdom of all the DILs are perished?
Or DIL are egoistic?
How many fathers treat their children badly (I mean it, as I have heard /seen things like parents killing/ humiliating and child abuse of their own children) so can we say Parents are egoistic or totally bad? No! It is happening everywhere in all levels in a society irrespective of the sex (Male or Female). But I would surely accept Females are the most affected and vulnerable. This is a different issue; we can discuss on this separately.

I agree with your point ‘women's lives are tied strictly around men's lives’ this is because of the assumed supremacy of Male (Note, there are many cases of supremacy of Female too exist haha) overcoming from this bond needs both Women and Men to understand each other. It is not that because of Shastras or because of what Manu said all Men or like that! Philosophically freewill is what guiding us, if a stronger person who does not have any code or ethics can be destructive with his own freewill (animal-human), if the same stronger person guided by ethics can raise to the level of Sri Sarada Devi, Sri Ramana Maharishi (god-human). Even if we take up this concern related with society, I would say the situation is changing; the present is not like what/how our Mother and Gran-Mother were. Great Men like Mohanroy, Mahakavi Bharathi came to revolutionize. Men are realizing they are equally meeker and Women are realizing they are equally stronger!!! J

Manu says:
“yathra naryastu poojyanthe thatra ramanthe devathaha:” [where women are worshiped there revels all the devethas]
In other place Manu says:
“Husband and wife are two owners of a single/same house”
How a person saying thus could contradict to his own statements! By saying or comparing women to Sudra and would emphasize on keeping her under control? I am not sure which part of Manu says this? I think that needs analysis here. You know what the problem is? We are reading our heritage through a foreigner! What foreigner says about our tradition and Shastras. Maxmuller and others are Christian missionary guys they had translated our scriptures with many ulterior motives! And we are reading it. But in fact the confusion started way back even before Britishers came to India that aided them to further fuel the confusion fire!!! Anyhow that is not the concern there. Coming to the point, our Shastra is deep in its meaning, its richness is its manifold meaning, and it is situation based. One should learn Shastra from an eligible guru then only can get the full ‘ras’ essence of the teaching else only a partial vision alone is gained. Each and ever vocabulary of Sanskrit has its own meaning, special meaning, situational meaning etc. Translating a Sanskrit text in other language might loose or twist its meaning. Anyhow I would be happy to research more on and get back to you on what you have mentioned here ‘equated women with Shudras’.

Just to add further to clarify some assumption made in previous thread: what I had mentioned and quoted from our Vedas and Shastras were not just a mimic of parrot like or papacy. Those were digested and assimilated thoughts. The purpose of quoting from Shastras is to prompt the perceiver to take it further and do research on that. We should not just stop after finishing reading, if so it would be like a gossip club, there won’t be any further cognitive progress unless we further analyze.

I will continue sharing my thoughts later.

RV

 

[NARAS]

sirs - let us consider 2 situations. these things normally do not happen practically. but for example let us consider them.

1. a man marries a woman. they become husband and wife. after that,the husband's father and the wife's mother marry each other. does that mean the husband and wife are now brothers and sisters?

2. a widower has a son. he marries a divorcee woman who has a daughter.

now the son of the widower and daughter of the divorcee do become brothers and sisters. there is no doubt about this at all in any way in case no.2. but what about case no.1? how can a couple who already have become husband and wife in all aspects suddenly become brothers and sisters for no fault of theirs, just because one of their parents married each other?

similarly i think after marriage, even though a woman inherits her husbands gotra, she will not become his brother. only a man or woman having same gothra by birth are considered brothers and sisters. this problem was not all that acute in those olden golden days when there were no divorces. moreover, this emphasis on gotra is laid only to ensure that a man and woman of same gotra do not marry each other. this is not all that important in matters other than marriage.

 

[navy-eswaran]

dear members,
i think the idea behind the change of gotram of a lady after marriage is to supress and obliterate the past of the lady. from time immemorial all religions have supressed the women. we all know given half a chance ladies will walk away with the crown. if u look around u will see that they are excelling again in all fields.(look at the results-who is the topper). we all know golda meyer and indira were the toughest leaders the world ever had!!
no intention to hurt man's EGO(bloated)
regards
eswaran(i am a man-hi-hi)

 

[S. Narasimhan]

You can take the gotram of your wife [if married] and be happy with it. You ! become a revolutionary and may be a statue may be erected at a later date.

SN

 

[NARAS]

sirs - i think what navy-eswaran has said is not only very interesting, but practically, logically and rationally right. if a woman were to find it difficult to keep away the memories of the life she lived with her parents, she will not enjoy her stay with her husband, & may be this is why elders started this pratice of a woman assuming her husbands's gotra , name, etc., so that she s considerably cut off from her past and enjoys her present and future with her husband.

 

[navy-eswaran]

dear sir,
i couldnt care less about all this but for the fact that we have literally cut the earth from under the feet of women. watch all the hindi news channels every evening (zee,aaj-tak,star etc) to know the reality about the plight of women in india. we r really cruel.
regards
eswaran

 

[Kothai]

Being a woman what I think is the status of women in India is in 3 categories.
Some are well liberated, earn a lot, may be more than her spouse, independent in decisions etc.
Some are in medium stage , wanting to go to the top category but bound by all chains.
The rest are not even aware of this liberty at all.
So for the top category, this gothram change and other things least matter.
This is my humble opinion.

 

[Chintana]

Previous discussions

Dear posters to this thread,

In order to facilitate better discussion I have copied and pasted a discussion regarding the same idea that took place last year in this same forum under the thread 'about brahmins'. I have saved you the trouble of referencing that thread by posting the relevant matter here.

Hope this will help you build your ideas and avoid repetition.

Let fresh perspectives take the stage.

Regards,
Chintana

 

[lotus_quartz]

Simple questions

A. What would be the Gothram of a person who converts to Hinduism ?

B. Is Gothram dependant on the Caste of the individual or people belonging to different castes can share the same Gothram ?

C. Do Gods also have Gothram ?

D. Whenever reference is made to one's Gothram, in the same breath the Nakshatram of the person is also stated or enquired. Does it mean that Gothram + Nakshatram are the key Bi-variates that determine the fate of the individual ?

E. Is fate deterministic or probabilistic process ?

 

[NARAS]

sirs - gothram is only for a peron who marries a bramin male,
whose father is a bramin or who has been adopted by a bramin male . there cannot be any gothram for a person who converts from other religions. there is also no gothram for non bramins. but some bramins who converted to non brahminism and vice versa do continue to claim gothras. but i think this is not on par with the gothrams of bramins.

i do not think gods have any gothram, because they are common to all. gothram is traced from 7 saints and it is believed all bramins are descendants of these 7 rishis.

gothrams and natcharas do determine fate of individual.

it is believed you are born in this particular caste or gothra or star only because of your karma in your previous birth. depending on your karma in this birth, your caste/ gothra / star will be decided by god in your next birth!!

 

[KRS]

Gothram and such

Folks,

As someone has pointed out, the 'Y's have it in terms of Gothram. But we all know, that both 'Y's and ''X' s have roles in a persons's genetic make up in terms of one's personality, role of birth defects etc.

Yes, the 'Y's are passed down through the male progenies. But then, what is the implication? So, one is traced through to Rishi Vishwamitra (Kaushika), for example. What does this mean? Are we supposed to feel proud and noble, if we trace our lineage to one of the Sapta Rishis? Even if we swindle and cheat and behave in terms that are contrarian to the behaviour model of these great men?

When we talk about the 'Y', why do we neglect to talk about the 'X', which by the way constitutes 75% of who we are?

While I know that I am of the 'Kaushika' Gothra, I have neither the knowledge nor the intelligence to know that I belong to the clan of a Maharishi who had a checkered past, including his Brahminical background. The only thing I know is that both my grand fathers were Iyer brahmins, who had different gothras.

The convention of gothras has nothing to do with genetics. If one knows so, then the whole question raised here is moot.

Pranams,
KRS

 

[Venkat.iyengar]

Hello Srivenkataraman
Can you d please send me the chart of a Pravaram for 'Sri Vathsa Gothram' it pictures the clan and the descendant Rishis in an inverted tree structure IF POSSIBLE.
THX
VENKY

 

[Chintana]

I am giving you my two cents on each of the questions raised. Other posters, please feel free to chip in.

A. What would be the Gothram of a person who converts to Hinduism ?

Hinduism doesn't believe in conversion. In my view this question doesn't arise.

B. Is Gothram dependant on the Caste of the individual or people belonging to different castes can share the same Gothram ?

Gothram is essentially a way of tracing one's lineage. To the best of my knowledge the Brahmin community has kept the best track of this in their respective families.

I don't know of any cases where people from different castes share the same gothram.

C. Do Gods also have Gothram ?

Gods don't have a beginning or an end. So they dont have a lineage to quarrel about. This question does not arise.

D. Whenever reference is made to one's Gothram, in the same breath the Nakshatram of the person is also stated or enquired. Does it mean that Gothram + Nakshatram are the key Bi-variates that determine the fate of the individual ?

Gothram and Nakshatram are like addresses; they are mere identifiers not fate-determiners.

E. Is fate deterministic or probabilistic process ?

Fate is actually something shaped by every individual. The horoscope/astrological chart gives an idea of the kind of challenges that can come in anybody's way but no astrology can predict individual reactions to such challenges. Individual reactions form an important part of one's Karma. Good karma brings good effects bad karma brings bad effects. In other words we each are designers of our own fate.

Hope this helps.

 

[NARAS]

sirs - persons from other faiths can indeed be converted to hinduism. it is brahminsm which does not believe in conversions.

gothras and natchathras are not like addresses. because addresses can be changed. but gothras and stars of a person cannot be changed.

 

[lotus_quartz]

Not very convincing.

During my recent visit to Madurai Meenakshi Temple along with north Indian friends, the priest enquired about our Gothram and Nakshatram for reading out some mantras along with the Aarti. I could reply easily and saw that my friend also could mutter some Gothra (though not common among tambrams) and though they are not Brahmins.

The priest happily read the mantrams etc. and collected the cash offerings.

Now my questions are :

A: Why did the priest enquire about our Gothram without knowing a-priori whether we were brahmins or not ?

B: Whenever the priests in any TN temple encounter request for "Archanai", they invariably enquire about name, gothram and nakshatram before chanting mantrams. Does it mean only Brahmins pay-up and requisition 'Archanai' to be performed by the priest and others do not make such requests ? If so, why do most temples have gone out of the way to prepare a rate card for fee to be paid for "Archanai" when such requisitions are very rare (say, by only 2-3 % of the temple visitors ) ?

B. Is Gothram dependant on the Caste of the individual or people belonging to different castes can share the same Gothram ?

Gothram is essentially a way of tracing one's lineage. To the best of my knowledge the Brahmin community has kept the best track of this in their respective families.

I don't know of any cases where people from different castes share the same gothram.

 

[NARAS]

sirs - gothrams are original & authentic only for bramins. some bramins who converted to non braminism continued mentioning their original gothrams and this practice continues till date. but only gothrams of bramins have scriptural recognition. as is well known, if a non bramin marries a male bramin, or is adopted by a male bramin, the non bramin also becomes a bramin, and then inherits the gothram of husband or father. otherwise gothram is only for bramins.

archanai is also a brahminical concept. but non bramins just like gothrams, adopted this practice from bramins,and today everybody performs archana, and so rate charts have to be kept.

 

[hariharan1972]

Good point for discussion



E. Is fate deterministic or probabilistic process ?

Fate is actually something shaped by every individual. The horoscope/astrological chart gives an idea of the kind of challenges that can come in anybody's way but no astrology can predict individual reactions to such challenges. [/quote]

If we have had enough of discussion on Gothrams (atleast i feel i have had enough), i want to pick up on this point.

I have an 'aspersion to cast' on South India, particularly TN.

I am generally a 'late nighter' & i keep surfing channels in the night especially the Big 4 Tam Channels - Sun, Vijay, Raj & Jaya.

Almost all Channels run late night shows on Astrology - Nameology, Pyramid Josyam, Gem Stone Josyam, Vasthu, Energy Treatment & what not !!!!!

I somehow get the feeling that South India especially in TN, there is a far greater reliance on Astrology as a 'tool' to overcome problems ?

I see this reflective of the tamilian trait of not having enough self-confidence, hoping against hope that ‘mandirathil maangai vilayuma’. I feel that in TN, when one goes thru a bad phase, instead of stepping up the effort & increasing thru put, people generally try to take shelter under the umbrella of the various Josyams to know how soon the problem will tide over. They don’t seem to realize that boxes in a sheet of paper, pyramids, name change & gems are poor substitutes (infact no substitute) to hardwork, commitment & success.

Before you dump a ton of bricks on me, let me state that there are programs in hindi channels too but I haven’t seen the kind of mushrooming of such programs in hindi as I have seen in tamil channels.

Another evidence for this ‘nogama nongu thingara’ hope of TN is the abundance of NBFCs (Non Banking Financial Institutions). There will be hardly any household in TN which has not lost some amount investing in such ‘dacalty’ NBFCs which offered upwards of 30% interest.

I have some basis for saying this. About 10 years ago when NBFC frauds were the order of the day, there was a report which stated that out of 200 or so NBFCs in India about 180 or 90% were in TN.

People were sure gullible, but the point that there is an attitude of ‘easy buck’ in TN shouldn’t be lost sight of.

I hope people realize the futility of depending on such ‘crutches’ and realize that there is no shortcut to success.

Serendipity needn’t be ignored but someone who only believes in that has all my pity.

 

[hariharan1972]

North has it's own share

I haven't travelled north of vindhyas as yet so my assessment was more based on TV channels...

Sure, north has it's own share of what i call 'baba' culture - Pilot baba more recently. (Did you watch CNN IBN sting on Pilot & other babas as to how they are such breeding grounds of money laundering ?)

But i haven't for example seen any equivalent of 'Nadi Josyam' - apparently there is one leaflet for 'e-v-e-r-y o-n-e' on this planet where in your "fate" is described in detail ? Anything to beat this in North ?

 

[lotus_quartz]

Sample this:

On the Bombay-Allahabad route, a little beyond Katni Jn. resides one Sadhoo Baba.

He blesses every one who visits him by kicking him on his back. It is beleived that his kick cures you of chronic ailments.

Every day, a whole lot of people throng to see him !

Can south match it with anything remotely parallel ?

I haven't travelled north of vindhyas as yet so my assessment was more based on TV channels...

Sure, north has it's own share of what i call 'baba' culture - Pilot baba more recently. (Did you watch CNN IBN sting on Pilot & other babas as to how they are such breeding grounds of money laundering ?)

But i haven't for example seen any equivalent of 'Nadi Josyam' - apparently there is one leaflet for 'e-v-e-r-y o-n-e' on this planet where in your "fate" is described in detail ? Anything to beat this in North ?

 

[Chintana]

As to my being "convincing" or not, as the case may be, I didn't claim to know all of the answers to all questions. I explicitly invited others to chip in right at the start of the posting.

I have had more of a chance to think through the philosophies we have as that kind of information is readily available.

I don't know every practice that is practiced in every community and every temple because that kind of information is not readily available.

I shared my views and explicitly qualified my statements by saying things like "to the best of my knowledge" and "in my view".

While it is great to be seen as a valuable contributor to some of the discussions (especially philosophy related) it is quite burdensome to be seen as a one-stop-shop for all kinds of doubts and queries.

To your specific questions I don't the answer. This is new information for me.

Not very convincing.

During my recent visit to Madurai Meenakshi Temple along with north Indian friends, the priest enquired about our Gothram and Nakshatram for reading out some mantras along with the Aarti. I could reply easily and saw that my friend also could mutter some Gothra (though not common among tambrams) and though they are not Brahmins.

The priest happily read the mantrams etc. and collected the cash offerings.

Now my questions are :

A: Why did the priest enquire about our Gothram without knowing a-priori whether we were brahmins or not ?

B: Whenever the priests in any TN temple encounter request for "Archanai", they invariably enquire about name, gothram and nakshatram before chanting mantrams. Does it mean only Brahmins pay-up and requisition 'Archanai' to be performed by the priest and others do not make such requests ? If so, why do most temples have gone out of the way to prepare a rate card for fee to be paid for "Archanai" when such requisitions are very rare (say, by only 2-3 % of the temple visitors ) ?