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"Complicatedism"

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கால பைரவன்;187657 said:
Dear Sangom,

It looks like you had given the same example before as a reply to one of my posts. I did not get it fully then.

It appears, from what you say, that the karma balance is like a grand universal stock index that changes constantly based on the activities of each and every jiva of this life. When a new life is born, the karma it inherits is a function of this karmic balance and because this karmic balance is constantly changing and so does the inheritance, it explains the inequities that one sees at birth. Whether one accepts your theory or not, I must say it is logical.

Dear Shri KB,

I am not familiar with the example of "grand universal stock index" and so on. My proposition is that karma is like a layer or skin attaching to every jiva. On death this karma layer (or, peel) gets out and searches a new birth which will be suitable for experiencing the results of all the accumulated Karmas in that particular peel. This explains the uniqueness of each individual as also the inequities at birth.

Hope this example is more lucid.
 
hello there,

buddhism and jainism were born out of reaction to ritualized brahminism - the vedsas, yagas and such. you might have forgotten the wars conducted in tamil nadu by saivaites against the jains - about vaigai flowing red with the blood of the jain monks.

over years, today there is no animosity between us the hindus and buddhists/jains, because we are facing the assault of islam and christianity over which we feel powerless. so we need allies, and these india originated religions, along with sikhism, are our natural allies. but try telling a sikh that he too is a hindu, and watch out that his kirpan is not drawn :)

you go to jain shops and you find hindu gods. and pullayars. and goddesses. these jains worship money above all things, and it is good business, omen and ambiance, to adorn a wall with colourful portraits of images of hema malini or padmini, dolled up as lakshmi or saraswathi.

but, you try to go to the newly converted dalit buddhist, and tell him, that he too is a hindu, and you will start a riot. you should read ambedkar on why he turned a buddhist - definitely not to identify as a hindu, but to get away as far away as possible from it, but still maintain an indian idenitity which he felt, that he will lose, if he adopted the followers of abraham. ok?

from now on, please quote whatever you say in grand statements. and you have two likes, but i think, these people too, like wishful thinking. dont you think it is good to look at reality as it is, for then there is a chance to redeem. with living in a castle built on air, one is definitely guaranteed to be blown away. no?

Dear Kunjuppu,

Shall I say that I like jaykaywith his inevitable blah, blah, blah because it tells me the minimum level of "Brahminism" we have today — at least in this Forum. Why do you want to blow your conch into someone's ears who apparently is deaf and thus take away the entertainment which Jaykay767 (I wish 786 might be more suitable!) provides to the readers?
 
Dear KRS - Sorry you are being partial here :) :) It was the other 2 people whom you mentioned, they were the ones to start dishing out to others. what they need to realize is when they "dish out" to others, they should be able to take the "dish in" from others :) :) :) LOL !! In contrast, my word silly is one of the mildest of rebukes !!. Cheers,
 
Dear KRS, Sangom, I mentioned this earlier, let me clarify again. Vedic religion is the entire body of Sanskrit literature not just the Vedas. hence includes the Upanishads, Vedantas etc.. If you compare the core teachings of Jainism, Buddhism, they not only have a lot of commonality with Shaivism/ Vaishnavism, they are attached at the hip. So even if they are against some of the teachings in the Vedas, they have taken a large body of work from Shaivism, Vaishnavism similarly, we have borrowed a large body of work from them, because all of them were Brahmins in those days who freely exchanged their views without the fighting like us today. The first among all Jains, himself says he is a Brahmin & similarly Lord Buddha is a Brahmin - Refer to the earlier post with URL reference. All through history, everyone was proud of their Brahmin lineage & only in the last 100 yrs, there is a huge Anti - B crusade, but that does not mean history can be changed, Sanskrit Slokas can be changed. Kunjuppu is referring to today's sensitivities of their followers where people get upset etc.., which is not relevant when it comes to establishing facts !!. Cheers,
 
Dear Sri Jaykay767 Ji,

as palindrome and Sri Kunjuppu Ji rightly point out, Buddhism and Jainism came out of the long standing Shramana tradition of not accepting the authority of the Vedas. Sikhism is a special case, somewhat, as is the Thenkalai Visishtadwaitham tradition, but these involve much more discussion.

But the point is this: these religions do not accept Vedas as the final authority and therefore stand on their own merits and identity.


......So, let us not try to say that these religions sprung out of Hinduism. On the contrary, they sprung out of opposition to the way Hinduism was practiced in those times..

This is what palindrome and Sri Kunjuppu Ji are pointing out. Let us look at it from the factual view point, instead of an emotional one.



Regards,
KRS


Shri KRS,


If tomorrow a group of Hindus, following the basic tenants of Hinduism, come up with new/altered concepts, opposing some of the scriptures, practices, etc, will it be wrong to say that, this new group in fact has originated from Hinduism, having vedic foundation?


----------------


Source - Wikipedia

Shramana - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


The Shramana (Skt. Śramaa; Pāli. samaa) movement was a Non-Vedic movement parallel to Vedic Hinduism in ancient India. The Shramana tradition gave rise to Jainism,[SUP][1][/SUP] Buddhism,[SUP][2][/SUP] and Yoga,[SUP][3][/SUP] and was responsible for the related concepts of saṃsāra (the cycle of birth and death) and moksha (liberation from that cycle).[SUP][4][/SUP]


There are only two references to the word Sramana in vedic literature.[SUP][9][/SUP] One is in Brihadaranyaka Upanishad where it is placed next to the term 'tapasa', indicating that the Shramana like the tapasa was a class of mendicants.[SUP][9][/SUP] It has been argued renunciation was not uncommon to the Vedic society, with Yatis, Munis, Shramanas quoted amongst earliest renouncers.[SUP][10][/SUP] In the pastoral cultures of Vedic people, the renouncer Munis and Yatis were looked down upon.[SUP][11][/SUP] The renouncers meditated upon death, link between births and death conditioned by attachment to desire. These themes surface in vedic literature for the first time in the Upanishads. After passing through henotheism and pantheism, the anthropomorphism of Vedas entered the period of monism in the Upanishadic period.[SUP][9][/SUP]

the Sramana movement impacted Vedic education through the Upanishads, with debate and discussion replacing parrot-like repetition of the Vedas.[SUP][12][/SUP] Many Upanishads compile contradictory positions where the favorite style of debate is to pose questions until the other cannot answer.[SUP][13][/SUP] The infinite regress notwithstanding, upanishadic arguments do not involve finding logical contradictions in opposing doctrines.[SUP][13][/SUP] The heterogenous nature of Upanishads shows infusions of both social and philosophical elements, pointing to evolution of new doctrines from non-brahmanical sources.[SUP][9][/SUP] While the Upanishadic doctrines of Brahman and Atman can be traced back to the Vedas and Brahmanas, the doctrines of Transmigration (as punarjanma), Karma (as action), and Emancipation (as moksha) do not follow with consistency from vedic traditions, and are fundamental to the Shramana religions

----------------
 
Shri Ravi,

First of all let me repeat that "spirituality" is a very vague term. I do not think the Christians view it as anything other than the properties owned by the Church. In both Islam and Christianity one can be devout, religious etc., but there is no special "spirituality" in Islam except the Five Pillars of that religion. Hence, it is not a fact to use "spirituality" as an umbrella term and try to paint as though all the religions are similar; it is sadly wrong.

If, in case you are of the firm view that all religions have the same "Spirituality" as one entity, that human folks across the Globe have identified, accepted, benefited and are continuing to practice, why should there be so much difficulty for hindu Indians to accept conversion to Xianity and Islam here? Even if Taliban comes tomorrow to India and compels people (at gunpoint) to change over to Islam, you should have no objection, since all the paths lead to the one and only entity, viz., "Spirituality".


Shri Sangom,

"Spirituality" is the one and the only one concept in common, on the foundation of which there exists multiple religion with differing belief and practices pertaining to Spirituality

IMO, Changing religion doesn't serve any special purpose and thus I am opposed to changes and wonder how come and for what people are changing. It may be OK if some find their Religion/Path of Spirituality difficult or suffocating and could adopt new practices OR to go for marriage as per the Religious/Spiritual principles of some IR partner.


Generally, people of different religion stick to their own religion having themselves convinced with what they are doing in their religious practices that is aimed towards Spiritual satisfaction.

Talibans forcing Hindus to convert to their own religion at Gunpoint is over powering with violence and it directly attempts to establish Islam as the only Right Spiritual Path and Hinduism as zilch.

Certainly no Religion would tolerate such act. Dedication in one's spiritual path is fine BUT fanaticism to the extent of ridiculing other Religion/Spiritual path and establishing supremacy can not prove one to be in true spiritual path with in the belief system of a specific religion.

"Spirituality" is the very purpose of formation of different Religion....Religion is the very purpose of heading towards Spiritual path.




 
Hi Ravi,

The problem is that some of the people have such Anti B views, they are not willing to engage in a open debate. Their hatred has consumed them, hence they will parrot the main stream views which are generally the politically correct ones. Hence this debate which religion came first & all are different will continue into eternity.

Despite the fact that Jainism, Buddhism founders are Brahmins & the concept of re-incarnation, Karmic theory/Cycle, Brahman, Atman, Jiva etc.. path to liberation, Bhavas, Tattvas, etc.. are all common to to these religions, these people will continue to claim they are all different.

They will also propagate their own myths in time that Lord Buddha despite being a Brahmin himself, is a anti B, he wanted only NB to be part of his religion etc..

My suggestion to all these people, pl create your own religion without using any of the concepts in the Vedic religion/literature/Upanishads, Vedantas, Puranas, Ramayana, Mahabaratha, Bhagavad Gita …etc, then we will hail you :) :) :)
Cheers,
 
Palindrome,

I think the problem lies in the fact that not many here are aware that śramaṇa, ājīvikā, etc., were non-vedic (even anti-vedic) systems of philosophical thought which were very much there in pre-buddhist India. Both Buddhism and Jainism adopted certain aspects of these miscellaneous traditions into their own and thus the word śramaṇa has come to be identified with Buddhism mainly. Your fault lies in "trying to teach veda by reciting into the ears of the quadruped known for its highly musical sound", as the adage goes ;).
Ah, well, not just central asia and old world europe, but parts of what we call india also was animist, nature-worshiping, with or without primitive concepts of a supreme. Some call the old world 'pagan', some use the word 'shamanism' to indicate belief systems of the old world.

From the natural wondering of man (on existence and natural phenomenon), there arose many streams of thinking, which formed part of faith. It is not possible to account how many and what types of faith systems existed in those tribal periods. For want of a better word some use the word Shramana (pali Samana) to indicate a wide variety of beliefs of various peripatetic renunciates.

Of the religions that came to exist, Jaina religion's shramana traditions are the oldest. Am not sure how it is possible to say Shramana came to be identified with Buddhism mainly. Buddha left home, became a Shraman monk and started the Buddist shramana traditions. The Jaina shramana and Buddhist shramana have similar beliefs with respect to karma, moksha/nirvana, etc. If there is a historical context, why Shramana came to be identified with Buddhism mainly, would like to know.

Addition:

Decided to add the portion below so it is clear how vedic religion stands in comparison to jains and buddhists.

Whatever was vedic (belief system of vedic speakers), found opposition in vedas itself. Their staunch enemies, the asuras, were deviled. The brahmana texts found a great deal of opposition from those who opposed animal sacrifice.

As already noted there was decreasing popularity of brahmana sacrifices, since mere rituals could not satisfy people (plus for a large part they were restricted to the elite yajamans). So as a reaction, aranyakas were composed to give philosophical interpretations to the brahmana sacrifices. Thereafter, the upanishads were composed.

The "thinking" attitude, plus the renunciate systems of shramanas (with their explanations of karma, samsara, etc) were incorporated into the upanishads. Due to this reason, it is argued there were renunciates in vedic society. However, this is not true. The Yatis and Munis were looked down upon; as we had previously noted Indra threw Yatis to Hyenes. This point was preserved in the Atharva. If there was a class of sages in vedic society they were most certainly not the shramana renunciates.

Mahavira

There is confusion on Mahavira. Some books claim he was brahman, some claim he was a kshatriya (like buddha). Many books use the word 'kshatriya' as though being a warrior alone conferred the varna on them automatically; without belonging to the culture and/or without the use of appropriate ritualism. Mostly these books are from colonial period, by those who wanted to seek (as well as impose) varna terms.

The term 'brahman' in Jainism and Buddhism is debatable; as neither buddhists not jains perform brahmanical sacrifices. Jains started using varna terms in 8th century due to competition with brahmins. Jinasena began (the system of) using varna terms through jain puranas compositions.

Additionally, the term 'brahmana', in buddhism and jainism, has an entirely different context, as one who does tapas. This is opposed to the term 'brahmana' of vedic religion who performs sacrifices to vedic gods. Obviously, Mahavira was not performing fire sacrifices to vedic gods, so he could not have been from a 'brahmin' family. We do not find evidence that Mahavira or his family was following rituals of a Kshatriya either (so it is doubtful if he was from a kshatriya family).

Instead of standing up for the teachings of the tirthankaras, it sad jains fell for varna terms.

Buddha

Now comes the association of Buddha with the Angirasas. In the Pali Canon, Buddha is called an Angirasa. This particular book argues, if Buddha was called an Angirasa in a bid for a takeover. By doing so, (as someone shining literally as Agni) Buddha is made equal to a vedic god (which would mean Buddha is no less than the gods of the vedic people).

Plus this book (on early brahmanical gotras) says Buddha was an Ikshvaku and claimed the Adiccha gotra. By virtue of Adiccha (Aditya) gotra, it is claimed he was a Suryavanshi and Sakya Jati. As noted here the context of gotras in Buddhism is different from the Brahmin one.

Buddha's personal name, Gautama was not his gotra (as was claimed in wiki and many sites copying wiki). If at all he had any connection with Gautama, it cud be only from his mother's side; which this book also explains. Buddha's mother's sister (who was also his stepmother) was named Mahaprajapati Gotami, and if that indicates a gotra, then his gotra could not have been gautama, since marriage within gotra could not have taken place (meaning, his father did not marry a lady from his own gotra).

This book (by Gombrich) also says Buddha rejected brahmanical fire sacrifices because it is an antithesis of what is truly desirable. Jains also opposed those sacrifices. Little wonder then, in popular usage the term asura became applied to buddhists and jains who opposed brahmanical fire sacrifices :)

Today however, buddhists pay less attention to the teachings of their masters, and more attention to varna terms. Allocating varnas gained a prominent and dominant role in colonial period, due to politics of those times. Have already elaborated enough on that issue in several older posts, no point repeating here.

Final remarks

The above being so, one wonders what did Buddhism and Jainism have to do with vedic brahmanical religion. If at all anything is common to Buddhists, Jains, and those supposedly called 'hindu' today, then it is the gods of the bhakti period (and also various tantras which show up an exchange, an interaction of philosophical points. Those interested may find the book The Roots of Tantra interesting in this regard).

The Gods of bhakti period were outside the brahmanical sacrificial religion (of vedic deities). They were sometimes associated with Shramana systems, but these became mainstream 'hindu' gods. The brahmanical religion of fire sacrifices could neither compete with the ahimsa theory, nor with the increasing popularity of non-vedic systems (which preached their philosophy in a language of the commoners for the commoners). So, for social relevance, and due to competition from non-vedic faith forms, the brahmans of that period adopted gods Shiva, Krishna, Narayana, Rama, local heroes, and local deities such as grama devas, into their fold.

Then ofcourse, there is also the claim that brahmins entered buddhist ranks and caused its downfall in the indian subcontinent. That is another story. In that regard, found this blog view interesting.

Similar arguments are made against brahmins wrt to Mahavira -- here is a glimpse of Osho's opinion. Anyways, finally we have Shvetambara Jains who propagate the theory that Mahavira was conceived by a brahmin couple and the embryo was transferred to Trishala's womb by some magic (shows how desperate these are to somehow link mahavira to a brahmin origin). But their problem comes not from outside but from Digamber Jains who reject their story.
 
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Ah, well, not just central asia and old world europe, but parts of what we call india also was animist, nature-worshiping, with or without primitive concepts of a supreme. Some call the old world 'pagan', some use the word 'shamanism' to indicate belief systems of the old world.

From the natural wondering of man (on existence and natural phenomenon), there arose many streams of thinking, which formed part of faith. It is not possible to account how many and what types of faith systems existed in those tribal periods. For want of a better word some use the word Shramana (pali Samana) to indicate a wide variety of beliefs of various peripatetic renunciates.

Of the religions that came to exist, Jaina religion's shramana traditions are the oldest. Am not sure how it is possible to say Shramana came to be identified with Buddhism mainly. Buddha left home, became a Shraman monk and started the Buddist shramana traditions. The Jaina shramana and Buddhist shramana have similar beliefs with respect to karma, moksha/nirvana, etc. If there is a historical context, why Shramana came to be identified with Buddhism mainly, would like to know.

Addition:

Decided to add the portion below so it is clear how vedic religion stands in comparison to jains and buddhists.

Whatever was vedic (belief system of vedic speakers), found opposition in vedas itself. Their staunch enemies, the asuras, were deviled. The brahmana texts found themselves with a great deal of opposition from those who opposed animal sacrifice.

As already noted there was decreasing popularity of brahmana sacrifices, since mere rituals could not satisfy people (plus for a large part they were restricted to the elite yajamans). So as a reaction, aranyakas were composed to give philosophical interpretations to the brahmana sacrifices. Thereafter, the upanishads were composed.

The "thinking" attitude, plus the renunciate systems of shramanas (with their explanations of karma, samsara, etc) were incorporated into the upanishads. Due to this reason, it is argued there were renunciates in vedic society. However, this is not true. The Yatis and Munis were looked down upon; as we had previously noted Indra threw Yatis to Hyenes. This point was preserved in the Atharva. If there was a class of sages in vedic society they were most certainly not the shramana renunciates.

Mahavira

There is confusion on Mahavira. Some books claim he was brahman, some claim he was a kshatriya (like buddha). Many books use the word 'kshatriya' as though being a warrior alone conferred the varna on them automatically; without belonging to the culture and/or without the use of appropriate ritualism. Mostly these books are from colonial period, by those who wanted to seek (as well as impose) varna terms.

The term 'brahman' in Jains and Buddhist religions is debatable; as neither buddhists not jains perform brahmanical sacrifices. Jains started using varna terms in 8th century due to competition with brahmins. Jinasena began (the system of) using varna terms through jain puranas compositions.

Additionally, the term brahmana, in buddhism and jainism, has an entirely different context, as one who does tapas. This is opposed to the term 'brahmana' of vedic religion who performs sacrifices to vedic gods. Obviously, Mahavira was not performing fire sacrifices to vedic gods, and so he could not have been from a 'brahmin' family. Nor do we find evidence that he or his family was following rituals of a Kshatriya (so it is doubtful if he was from a kshatriya family).

Instead of standing up for the teachings of the tirthankaras, it sad jains (and buddhists) fell for varna terms.

Buddha

Now comes the association of Buddha with the Angirasas. In the Pali Canon, Buddha is called an Angirasa. This particular book argues, if Buddha was called an Angirasa in a bid for a takeover. By doing so, (as someone shining literally as Agni) Buddha is made equal to a vedic god (which would mean Buddha is no less than the gods of the vedic people).

Plus this book (on early brahmanical gotras) says Buddha was an Ikshvaku and claimed the Adiccha gotra. His personal name, Gautama was not his gotra (as was claimed in wiki and many sites copying wiki). If at all he had any connection with gautama, it cud have been only from his mother's side; which this book also explains. Buddha's mother's sister (who was also his stepmother) was named Mahaprajapati Gotami, and if that indicates a gotra, then his gotra could not have been gautama, since marriage within gotra could not have taken place (meaning, his father did not marry a lady from his own gotra).

This book (by Gombrich) also says the Buddha rejected brahmanical fire sacrifices because it is an antithesis of what is truly desirable. Jains also opposed those sacrifices. Little wonder then, in popular usage the term asura became applied to buddhists and jains who opposed brahmanical fire sacrifices :)

Final remarks

The above being so, one wonders what did Buddhism and Jainism have to do with vedic brahmanical religion, at all. If at all anything is common to Buddhists, Jains, and those supposedly called 'hindu' today, then it is the gods of the bhakti period.

The Gods of the bhakti period, were outside the brahmanical sacrificial religion of vedic deities, sometimes associated with Shramana systems, and these became mainstream gods. The brahmanical religion of fire sacrifices could neither compete with the ahimsa theory, nor with the increasing popularity of the non-vedic systems (which preached in the language of the commoners for the commoners). So, the brahmans of that period adopted the gods Shiva, Krishna, Narayana, Rama, local heroes, and local dieties such as grama devas, into their fold.

Then ofcourse, there is also the claim that brahmins entered buddhist ranks and caused its downfall in the indian subcontinent.

Palindrome,

While you are in Rome, it is better to do as the Romans do. Here, in this Forum, one should try to emulate those whose views are acceptable (priyam bruyat) but not necessarily the truth. If you cannot do that it is better to keep quiet and leave the Forum at least temporarily. This is my friendly advise to you.

My thanks for the wealth of info. contained in the above post. But all the world's religions including those of the Aztecs must have arisen from the vedic religion (Sanatana Dharma). And all religions have one aim - spirituality. That is the TRUTH and the only TRUTH !!;)
 
Palindrome,

While you are in Rome, it is better to do as the Romans do. Here, in this Forum, one should try to emulate those whose views are acceptable (priyam bruyat) but not necessarily the truth. If you cannot do that it is better to keep quiet and leave the Forum at least temporarily. This is my friendly advise to you.

My thanks for the wealth of info. contained in the above post. But all the world's religions including those of the Aztecs must have arisen from the vedic religion (Sanatana Dharma). And all religions have one aim - spirituality. That is the TRUTH and the only TRUTH !!;)
Ah yes, of course to be part of the crowd, if one must claim everything is "brahman", everything is "sanatana dharma", everything originated from "vedic', so be it. Anyways, I get your point sir, the first paragraph so direct and the second paragraph so subtle :)

All the same, no worries, there are people, from "our" communities also, who like to read these things. Everyone born into a so-called brahmin family does not have a closed mindset..
 
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It is really sad & pitiable for people to go throughsuch drama to cover up the Brahminical Origins of Lord Mahavira !!.

When He himself says via Sanskrit slokams he is a Brahmin& many of his followers (most if not all) are claiming they were Brahminsin the past & proud of their lineage.

oh aw, well, one must raise doubts by hook or crook - oh,lets analyze did he follow all the rituals of Brahmins, as though these peoplelived during that time to say with authority that he did not, so he cannot be aBrahmin. LOL !!.

Let me give you a very easy way out for all of you. When youwant to deliberately obscure the truth, just say, while Mahavira says he is abrahmin, most mainstream researchers dont agree !!. that will solve yourproblems !! – LOL !!. who the hell cares about these mainstream researchers, whatis in the sanskrit texts stands supreme !!.

when you are in the outside rome (outside of this forum),all these will fly – eh not fly, it will rocket, you can collect a lot offollowers, who like Kunuppu said will raise a riot, but in this - inside rome(inside this forum), it is just another Anti B theory, we have seen manypeddled before, this is just another simply to be cast aside. Cheers,
 
Of course the biggest joke is that the Brahmins entered the Buddhist ranks to cause its downfall. So we Bs should create the religion, & then walk away quietly, some one else will come & claim it is their religion & it is anti B in every sense & then blame the Bs for the downfall. what a delusional theory, oh wait, not in the right mind - LOL !!! :) :) :)
 
Dear Sri Jaykay767 Ji,

I wish you temper the style of your expression. None of our members are 'silly'. They spend their valuable time in the Forum to understand and to be understood. Let us have civilized discourse.

Dear KRS,

Although i agree with the sentiment expressed by you, I have to agree with JK that your remarks or moderation at times does not appear to be impartial.

In this post you have averred that none of the members are silly. Quite right. But you also appeared to agree with Palindrome that some members lack ability to understand certain subjects. Are you sure you agree with this opinion? If not you would have expunged those phrases too, especially when it was brought to your notice. I am referring to this post: post # 2
http://www.tamilbrahmins.com/general-discussions/11806-tantras.html

Furthermore when you were participating in "God Exists" thread and also was a super moderator then, the word "silly" and "silly ideas" were exchanged in a routine fashion between the participants. If need be, I can give you a couple of posts for example.

So since when did the calling of another's idea as "silly" become uncivilized?
 
hello there,

you should read ambedkar on why he turned a buddhist - definitely not to identify as a hindu, but to get away as far away as possible from it, but still maintain an indian idenitity which he felt, that he will lose, if he adopted the followers of abraham. ok?

While you are proffering free advice to read a book of Ambedkar on why he turned a buddhist, it is my turn to offer the same free advice to you. There are 1000s of articles by various eminent persons on "Why I am a Hindu?". You may try reading a few of them at leisure.

As you have brought in a historical figure, the link I am giving you is also by a historical person. Here is the link as to why M K Gandhi chose to be a Hindu:
Truth Is God : Complete Book Online

It is pertinent to the discussion on hand as MK Gandhi says and I quote:

QUOTE:
(I do not regard Jainism or Buddhism as separate from Hinduism.)
UNQUOTE

So much for people pooh-poohing the idea and posing as scholars here.

from now on, please quote whatever you say in grand statements.

If you have the authority and willingness make it universal. It is a fact that a few people are peddling their bias and prejudice under the garb of IMOs. IMO of six months history becomes an unalterable fact.

but i think, these people too, like wishful thinking. dont you think it is good to look at reality as it is, for then there is a chance to redeem. with living in a castle built on air, one is definitely guaranteed to be blown away. no?

Dont you think it is applicable to you too?
 
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Whether you understand or not, you can call others post "silly" & "nonsense"

You can also suggest/instruct others to follow the same.

What you said alone is the truth and the only truth no mater to what extent you rely upon other sources of info. (internet info and copy & paste them).

You can also use double meaning cheap statements against a member when you go mad seeing a reply, against your views.


BUT, when some one at the receiving end bothers the moderator, a moderator has to do his part, even though he could know that the same complaining member himself/herself indulges in such attacks.

This is the routine. Would never end. That's why so far I never go crying to the moderator. Instead respond equally in my public post itself.

Ironically some members who themselves are into such attacks, makes hue and cry to the moderator when given back to them. This gives them absolute EGO Massaging and they need it at least when there are here as a member sparing their time and energy. LOL!!
 
Whether you understand or not, you can call others post "silly" & "nonsense"

You can also suggest/instruct others to follow the same.

What you said alone is the truth and the only truth no mater to what extent you rely upon other sources of info. (internet info and copy & paste them).

You can also use double meaning cheap statements against a member when you go mad seeing a reply, against your views.


BUT, when some one at the receiving end bothers the moderator, a moderator has to do his part, even though he could know that the same complaining member himself/herself indulges in such attacks.

This is the routine. Would never end. That's why so far I never go crying to the moderator. Instead respond equally in my public post itself.

Ironically some members who themselves are into such attacks, makes hue and cry to the moderator when given back to them. This gives them absolute EGO Massaging and they need it at least when there are here as a member sparing their time and energy. LOL!!

Let me know where I have said you are silly or anyone is silly. Let me know where I have made cheap remarks against other members. There is a big difference between "nonsense" and "senseless". If you cannot understand the difference, despite explaining to you, then well, it is your problem. So much for your LOL, really.
 
Let me know where I have said you are silly or anyone is silly. Let me know where I have made cheap remarks against other members. There is a big difference between "nonsense" and "senseless". If you cannot understand the difference, despite explaining to you, then well, it is your problem. So much for your LOL, really.

My post was in common. Not indicating one particular member. I am not responsible if you take it as personally targeted towards you only.
 
Palindrome said:
Then ofcourse, there is also the claim that brahmins entered buddhist ranks and caused its downfall in the indian subcontinent.

Of course the biggest joke is that the Brahmins entered the Buddhist ranks to cause its downfall. So we Bs should create the religion, & then walk away quietly, some one else will come & claim it is their religion & it is anti B in every sense & then blame the Bs for the downfall. what a delusional theory, oh wait, not in the right mind - LOL !!!

There are people who seek to propagate that anything bad has brahminical origin and anything good is non-brahminical. As JK said, there are thousands of forums who peddle such theories. It is sad that one gets to see such postings even in this forum.

It is a fact that Jains have their own caste system and they practice endogamy (refer to sajatiya marriages), which is why several caste groups have come to disappear. Jinasena states in Adipurna that varnas was established by Rsaba.

"The whole mankind came into existence due to the rise of Jati-Nama-Karma; and the mankind was divided into four categories of Brahmana, Kshatriya, Vaishya and Shudra according to the differences in the vocations they followed for their livelihood. Those who observed `Vratas’ (i.e., religious injunctions to a greater degree) were known as Brahmanas, those who carried weapons as Kshatriyas, those who acquired wealth by just means as Vaishyas and those who maintained by resorting to low professions as Shudras."

The claims of Jains is that the varna system envisaged by their Jain acharyas is purely based on vocation and not on birth and that there is free movement of people between different varnas. This claim is all too familiar as this is not very different from claims of hindus.

I have written before that just because a view is anti-brahminical, it does not become anti-varna or anti-caste. Buddha did recognize caste system and justified it based on past karmas.

From the paper linked below:
The Buddha stresses that, "whatever caste in which a person might be born in this world, in the next birth, after the dissolution of his body after death his caste status will be determined by the quality of his accumulated karmas in previous births."

In some places, he holds kshatriyas superior to brahmanas. "khattiyo parama nihinatam patto hoti" - even when a ksatriya is fallen in the deepest degradation, "khattiyo va setfha hino brahmano" the ksatriya is superior, brahmana inferior.

Please refer to the paper titled "Buddhism and the Caste System" by Yuvaraj Krishnan from the following link.
JIABS 9/1 (1986)
 
Dear Sri zebra Ji,

Seems like you do not know how to separate my input as a member from those as a Moderator. My latter comments would be in 'red' and usually comes with action.

This, and any other posts have not risen to the level of Moderation.

By the way, will you please do two things in the future?

1. Don't post anymore questioning any Moderation. I have let this stand, because I want any new members to understand the rules. If one has questions about moderation, one should communicate via PM.

2. My comments were towards Sri Jaykay767 Ji. There is no need for your unsolicited input in to that conversation.

Regards,
KRS




Dear KRS,

Although i agree with the sentiment expressed by you, I have to agree with JK that your remarks or moderation at times does not appear to be impartial.

In this post you have averred that none of the members are silly. Quite right. But you also appeared to agree with Palindrome that some members lack ability to understand certain subjects. Are you sure you agree with this opinion? If not you would have expunged those phrases too, especially when it was brought to your notice. I am referring to this post: post # 2
http://www.tamilbrahmins.com/general-discussions/11806-tantras.html

Furthermore when you were participating in "God Exists" thread and also was a super moderator then, the word "silly" and "silly ideas" were exchanged in a routine fashion between the participants. If need be, I can give you a couple of posts for example.

So since when did the calling of another's idea as "silly" become uncivilized?
 
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Here is the link as to why M K Gandhi chose to be a Hindu:
Truth Is God : Complete Book Online

I was all along under the impression that M.K.Gandhi was born as a Hindu; was this wrong?
It is pertinent to the discussion on hand as MK Gandhi says and I quote:

QUOTE:
(I do not regard Jainism or Buddhism as separate from Hinduism.)
UNQUOTE

So much for people pooh-poohing the idea and posing as scholars here.

Is M.K. Gandhi the ultimate authority on such topics? Obviously Gandhi might have said these words when the Muslim league had turned against his (Gandhi's kind of leadership) because they felt he was a hindu fanatic in disguise. Hence, in order not to alienate the Buddhists and the Jains (a powerful community of mostly Vaishyas including G.D. Birla who financed the INC all through Gandhi's time by making money in the cotton and jute markets - kind of gambling with lot of good gambling luck) Gandhi must have uttered these words.

While today's great Acharyas like zebra, jaykay767, C.Ravi may pronounce that Jainism and Buddhism are off-shoots of Hinduism, blah, blah, blah (;)), ignoramuses like Adishankara thought it fit to cite the Buddhist view points as the "poorvapaksha" and was successfully demolishing the Buddhist philosophy. And, the world over these two philosophies are even today not counted among the Hindu Shad Darsanas. I feel the world therefore needs to listen to this new set of ultra-scholars here in this forum.


It is a fact that a few people are peddling their bias and prejudice under the garb of IMOs.

I don't understand why a statement like "Buddhism and Jainism" arose in protest against vedic religion, becomes biased (against brahmin interests)!
 
Dear Sri Jaykay767 Ji,

You would note that I have not really made that comment as the Moderator. My friendly comment was as a member of the Forum.

I do not understand what 'dishing out' is. We will moderate, if it raises to a level where it has to be moderated - the judgement to do that is solely ours.

And let me close by saying that everyone here should try not to respond in kind - please use the post reporting to the Moderators to point out any offense. We will judge whether to take further action. Thanks.

Regards,
KRS


Dear KRS - Sorry you are being partial here :) :) It was the other 2 people whom you mentioned, they were the ones to start dishing out to others. what they need to realize is when they "dish out" to others, they should be able to take the "dish in" from others :) :) :) LOL !! In contrast, my word silly is one of the mildest of rebukes !!. Cheers,
 
Dear Sri zebra Ji,

Seems like you do not know how to separate my input as a member from those as a Moderator. My latter comments would be in 'red' and usually comes with action.

This, and any other posts have not risen to the level of Moderation.

By the way, will you please do two things in the future?


2. My comments were towards Sri Jaykay767 Ji. There is no need for your unsolicited input in to that conversation.

Regards,
KRS

Now that you have clarified that the post in question was posted by you as a member, I too can say that as a member there was no need for you to give unsolicited input to Sri JK.

That apart Sri Praveen has already clarified that any person can respond to any post in general discussion forum, provided he follows the code of conduct of this forum so the question of solicitation does not arise.
 
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Dear KRS, Sangom, I mentioned this earlier, let me clarify again. Vedic religion is the entire body of Sanskrit literature not just the Vedas. hence includes the Upanishads, Vedantas etc.. If you compare the core teachings of Jainism, Buddhism, they not only have a lot of commonality with Shaivism/ Vaishnavism, they are attached at the hip. So even if they are against some of the teachings in the Vedas, they have taken a large body of work from Shaivism, Vaishnavism similarly, we have borrowed a large body of work from them, because all of them were Brahmins in those days who freely exchanged their views without the fighting like us today. The first among all Jains, himself says he is a Brahmin & similarly Lord Buddha is a Brahmin - Refer to the earlier post with URL reference. All through history, everyone was proud of their Brahmin lineage & only in the last 100 yrs, there is a huge Anti - B crusade, but that does not mean history can be changed, Sanskrit Slokas can be changed. Kunjuppu is referring to today's sensitivities of their followers where people get upset etc.., which is not relevant when it comes to establishing facts !!. Cheers,

Shri Jaykay,


When you say "the entire body of Sanskrit literature" , it includes literary works of Bilhana, Kalidasa, Bhavabhuti and so on also but still Buddha's original preachings are not in Sanskrit. Also, there are no books under the title "vedantas"; the philosophies of the vedanta are in a set of different books, the main ones being the Brahmasutra Bhashyas of different Acharyas.

I will be very grateful (probably the entire brahmin community spread over the globe will be grateful) to you, if you will kindly start a new thread and furnish a few important examples of the commonalities of Buddhism/Jainism and Shaivism/Vaishnavism; even a handful of such commonalities will suffice. Hope you will not reject this request, because, people like myself are under the impression that there are no such commonalities in so far as the essential philosophies are concerned though we may say that both buddhist preachers and our Shankaracharyas remain celibate, wear orange or kAvi coloured clothes only, both shave their heads and so on.

You also say "we have borrowed a large body of work from them"; kindly furnish some examples to prove this point.
We are not concerned here with the paternity of Buddha or Mahavira but with the kind of philosophy they preached and whether both these people accepted the Vedas as authority (which Shankara, Ramanuja, Vedanta Desika, Madhva, etc. did). Right from Adishankara's times people have been telling that Shankara destroyed the hold of Buddhism on the hindus; probably they were not as learned and well-informed as yourself, or they did not give much weightage to the brahman paternity/origin of these two teachers, Gowthama and Mahavira. There is nothing Anti-B in this nor in the Charvakas being not included in our philosophies though the nAstika system in India is known also as bArhaspatya signifying that one brihaspati was the originator of such thoughts.

Buddhists and Jains never considered themselves as part of mainstream hinduism. But after the Moghul period in our history, the Jains were less unfriendly with the Hindus, and today, perhaps there are marriages between Brahmins and Jains also. Buddhists were slightly different and were not on amicable terms with hinduism and after Shri Ambedkar converted himself and a lot of SCs to Buddhism, the buddhists have no love lost for hindus, esp. brahmins. These are what I have learnt; kindly correct me if I am wrong.
 
Dear Sri Jaykay767 Ji,

We all agree that till the Moghul invasion, all sorts of idea borrowing has been going on between various then religious/philosophical groups. We also agree that given a particular king's inclination, one group/religion got prominence and others got suppressed.

No one here is denying that there were intermingling of ideas across the board.

What is being questioned here is whether Buddhism and Jainism stand alone as separate religions as religions are defined respectively and whether it is valid that the followers look at the canons coming from each of the founders as their own. They do not think that they are part of Hinduism.

This is somewhat similar to all three Abrahamic religions having the same origin of the old bible. But no one would say that the Jewish, Christian and Muslim religions are 'joined at the hip'. They are three distinctive religions with Torah, New Testament and Quron as their authority. Not the old bible.

I don't know whether you have watched an american movie called 'My fat Greek wedding'. There the father of the bride, who is of Greek origin looks at the world with the Greek colored glasses - he thinks that all cultures originated from his culture and so inferior!

Regards,
KRS

Dear KRS, Sangom, I mentioned this earlier, let me clarify again. Vedic religion is the entire body of Sanskrit literature not just the Vedas. hence includes the Upanishads, Vedantas etc.. If you compare the core teachings of Jainism, Buddhism, they not only have a lot of commonality with Shaivism/ Vaishnavism, they are attached at the hip. So even if they are against some of the teachings in the Vedas, they have taken a large body of work from Shaivism, Vaishnavism similarly, we have borrowed a large body of work from them, because all of them were Brahmins in those days who freely exchanged their views without the fighting like us today. The first among all Jains, himself says he is a Brahmin & similarly Lord Buddha is a Brahmin - Refer to the earlier post with URL reference. All through history, everyone was proud of their Brahmin lineage & only in the last 100 yrs, there is a huge Anti - B crusade, but that does not mean history can be changed, Sanskrit Slokas can be changed. Kunjuppu is referring to today's sensitivities of their followers where people get upset etc.., which is not relevant when it comes to establishing facts !!. Cheers,
 
While today's great Acharyas like zebra, jaykay767, C.Ravi may pronounce that Jainism and Buddhism are off-shoots of Hinduism, blah, blah, blah (;))


:pound:


Shri Sangom, to know and to highlight the facts one need not to be an Acharya..

If you consider Mr.Zebra, Mr.Jaykay and myself as great Acharayas, you will be shocked to note that there will not only be millions of such Hindu Acharayas who share our views (which you call as blah blah blah) there will be many many from Sikhs, Jains and Budhists who agrees with the points raised by us, who could know what is what.

If MR.Gandhi's statement were politically motivated, I wonder what was the agenda of those whose articles you people are referring in your attempt to substantiate your claims and want to consider them as the Only Truth?


 
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