Corruption in our country

[Jaykay767]

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Dear brother, the capitalist system of production is only about 300 years old.
Cheers!

Hi Nara,

Sorry, this statement is incorrect. In ancient times, the only thing that existed was capitalism. there were individual landlords, traders, etc.. by their free enterprise they setup large scale agriculture, trading units etc..

Kings also provided a lot of impetus to ship building, villages/towns etc.. through taxes.

There was NO re-destribution of wealth or any communist/socialist wealth. thats how families amassed wealth for 1000s of years in all society. forgotten the aristrocrats !!

Lets not change history to suit our arguements please !.

Cheers,
JK

 

[Naina_Marbus]

While we are all debating about corruption in India, let us hear what an outsider has to say.

BBC’s India correspondent Mark Tully spent over 40 years reporting from the sub-continent. He is now 76 years old, retired and living in New Delhi. He is the Englishman who has given his heart to his adoptive country. He spends his post-retirement period, giving talks, hosting the 'Something Understood' programme on BBC Radio 4, as well as writing books. He released in Dec 2011 a new book, 'Non-Stop India', on what is happening in the country. He is a Padmabhushan.

“In the government, nothing has changed in the past fifty years,” he says. “If you look at the attitude of the government servant, the word, 'servant' does not come into it. He does not have an attitude of, 'How may I help you, Sir?' Instead, it is a barked, 'What do you want?' There is a lot of arrogance.Treating people like muck. Deliberately making things complicated, to encourage corruption.” "In fact, in the rural areas, the bureaucrat is a more hated figure than the politician.The poor know that they can boot out the politician every five years. But the bureaucrat will sit on his seat for 30 years, whether he performs or not.”

When asked whether the ambition of India wanting to become the next superpower, along with China, an illusion, he says: “Imagine what Mahatma Gandhi would have said if any Indian expressed a desire to become a citizen of a superpower. He would have been appalled by that. India should aspire to be a country where everyone can enjoy a decent standard of living, education, and health. It should be a nation which should live by its ancient principles. Instead, India is borrowing all its ideas from the West.” But the West, unfortunately, is in creative and economic decline, says Tully.

The Hindu
Expressbuzz

 

[prasad1]

Hi Nara,

Sorry, this statement is incorrect. In ancient times, the only thing that existed was capitalism. there were individual landlords, traders, etc.. by their free enterprise they setup large scale agriculture, trading units etc..

Kings also provided a lot of impetus to ship building, villages/towns etc.. through taxes.

There was NO re-destribution of wealth or any communist/socialist wealth. thats how families amassed wealth for 1000s of years in all society. forgotten the aristrocrats !!

Lets not change history to suit our arguements please !.

Cheers,
JK

Well said

 

[Nara]

...Sorry, this statement is incorrect.

[...]

Lets not change history to suit our arguements please !.

JK, what I said was "the capitalist system of production is only about 300 years old". This was in response to Shri KRS's claim that only capital can generate wealth.

Now you jump in make some statements about feudalism and mercantile capitalism which also goes back only for about 1500 to 2000 years. But humans have been producing wealth for much longer than that without anybody advancing capital.

Please read what I have written carefully and if you disagree state your position. I don't think accusing me of changing history is helpful.

Thank you..

 

[Jaykay767]

JK, what I said was "the capitalist system of production is only about 300 years old". This was in response to Shri KRS's claim that only capital can generate wealth.

Now you jump in make some statements about feudalism and mercantile capitalism which also goes back only for about 1500 to 2000 years. But humans have been producing wealth for much longer than that without anybody advancing capital.

Please read what I have written carefully and if you disagree state your position. I don't think accusing me of changing history is helpful.

Thank you..

Hi Nara,

Sorry I thought you were commenting on capitalism itself being only 300 yrs old. Agree, humans have been generating wealth without necessarily having to deploy capital.

Cheers,
JK

 

[Yamaka]

While we are all debating about corruption in India, let us hear what an outsider has to say.

BBC’s India correspondent Mark Tully spent over 40 years reporting from the sub-continent. He is now 76 years old, retired and living in New Delhi. He is the Englishman who has given his heart to his adoptive country. He spends his post-retirement period, giving talks, hosting the 'Something Understood' programme on BBC Radio 4, as well as writing books. He released in Dec 2011 a new book, 'Non-Stop India', on what is happening in the country. He is a Padmabhushan.

“In the government, nothing has changed in the past fifty years,” he says. “If you look at the attitude of the government servant, the word, 'servant' does not come into it. He does not have an attitude of, 'How may I help you, Sir?' Instead, it is a barked, 'What do you want?' There is a lot of arrogance.Treating people like muck. Deliberately making things complicated, to encourage corruption.” "In fact, in the rural areas, the bureaucrat is a more hated figure than the politician.The poor know that they can boot out the politician every five years. But the bureaucrat will sit on his seat for 30 years, whether he performs or not.”

When asked whether the ambition of India wanting to become the next superpower, along with China, an illusion, he says: “Imagine what Mahatma Gandhi would have said if any Indian expressed a desire to become a citizen of a superpower. He would have been appalled by that. India should aspire to be a country where everyone can enjoy a decent standard of living, education, and health. It should be a nation which should live by its ancient principles. Instead, India is borrowing all its ideas from the West.” But the West, unfortunately, is in creative and economic decline, says Tully.

The Hindu
Expressbuzz

Dear ALL:

I don't know what Mark Tully has said anything new here that most Indians don't know already.

Yes, people elect new leaders once in five years. Yes, bur'crats stay in their jobs for 30 years. And, Gandhiji never wanted India to become a World Super Power.

But bur'crats are Indians, and are part of the People.

Since Y2K, a brand new field of service industry got started in India: IT/BPO and West is providing the source of income. Naturally, people are attracted towards the West.

What's the Solution for all the Corruption in India? Mark Tully has no answer.

What's needed is Quality Education which will instil high Integrity and Professionalism in People.

More later...

 

[Naina_Marbus]

Dear ALL:

I don't know what Mark Tully has said anything new here that most Indians don't know already.

Yes, people elect new leaders once in five years. Yes, bur'crats stay in their jobs for 30 years. And, Gandhiji never wanted India to become a World Super Power.

But bur'crats are Indians, and are part of the People.

Since Y2K, a brand new field of service industry got started in India: IT/BPO and West is providing the source of income. Naturally, people are attracted towards the West.

What's the Solution for all the Corruption in India? Mark Tully has no answer.

What's needed is Quality Education which will instil high Integrity and Professionalism in People.

More later...

Looks like OCD on "quality education" .

 

[KRS]

Dear brother, my response in 'blue':

Dear brother, the capitalist system of production is only about 300 years old. The society managed to create wealth just fine until that time. So, it is clear capital is not what creates wealth, only labor does. Even this capital is usurped labor from the past, capital just cannot exist without extracting surplus labor at one time or another. Capital just cannot exist unless accumulated by past expropriation of surplus wealth.
Modern capitalism's (post Adam Smith) most important fundamental principle is the right to property. This essentially differentiates it from the past, when labor owned the value of what was produced. Today, labor does not own that, only the owners of capital do, by law. By the way, while labor does add value to the product, other factors,such as society, nature etc. also impact the value. So, in the end analysis, because the owner of capital also owns the means of production and the end value realized, one can easily say that capital creates wealth in today's America.

There are a lot of technical arguments to show how labor is systematically robbed by those who provide capital, but I don't think people will care to understand them as they are too technical. However, even the most dried in the wool capitalist, the likes of Riccardo and Adam Smith, agree wealth creation cannot arise without labor power. So at the very least labor has a legitimate claim for at least half or some significant part of the surplus wealth created. To say those who provide capital have an unfettered right to the entirety of the surplus wealth is not a position even of Adam Smith.
You are arguing from an emotional pov, while I am stating the current state of how capitalism is practiced in USA. Labor has become just a commodity in production.

What is sensible is the detail where the devil lies. The rich and powerful have the politicians bought and paid for. There is no voice for the common man to make a difference. In practical terms, sensible regulation is nothing but ones that favor the rich and powerful. But, if by sensible you mean something that ensures the prevention of exploitation of resources including labor that is injurious to the society at large, and that use of resources including labor is paid for at the true cost, then I am with you.
What is a 'true cost'? What is exploitation? As long as there is no bar for someone to start a venture with a some capital will compensate for any exploitation. Labor differentiation, skills as required by the modern industry as well as productivity will ensure that labor is rewarded for the value added. This is a self adjusting mechanism, as the labor market today is separated from the product market.

A free market is one in which free exchange of commodities of equal value is possible. That there is such a truly free and competitive labor market is a complete myth.
In modern times where money has become a very complex instrument the above idea of Adam Smith can not really be put in to action. It can only be theoretical. Even tagging 'equal value' is no more possible because of the segmentation of the 'value' of the same product across different markets. What you are talking about is an idealized free market, which is Utopian and imaginary and can not exist in the complex monetary world of today.
You don't surprise me!! However, even a brief study of US history, if you are so inclined, will disabuse of this notion. Each and every little concession from the oligarchs has come only after prolonged struggle. Even the 40-hour week we all take for granted is a reality now because there were people who were willing to lay their lives on the line and many literally had to make good on this risk.
Yes, you are correct. But the answer is not to throw the baby with the bath water. This is best system in history to advance a complex and diverse society in tertms of creating wealth. I do not agree that there are any industrial 'oligarchs' today. Otherwise we would not have new millionnaires and billionaires adding to the list almost every year.
The yaksha of Mahabharata asked what was the most unbelievable thing on earth, for which Yudhsitra is supposed to have answered humans think they will live for ever even while seeing death all around. This is indeed a great answer, but a close second is the the myth that has been sold to every hardworking slob that one day this free-market capitalist system will elevate him/her to be rich, i.e., one of the expropriators. Sadly, that day can never come for most of us, the working stiffs.
I think that anyone who really want to be rich in America can be rich, as long as one is smart business wise and is willing to work hard. Becoming 'rich' is not a birth right (if you are not one when born), and the choice is yours to earn that - remembering that USA is more or less is based on meritocracy. I think what is holding up this equal chance for everyone in USA is the government's bad policies in terms of our war against poverty and how we treat the poor in terms of providing and insisting upon good education. Even Adam Smith would agree.

Cheers!

Regards,
KRS

 

[Nara]

Modern capitalism's (post Adam Smith) most important fundamental principle is the right to property.

So dear brother, Adam Smith suddenly came in and declared right to private property trumps everything else, and so it came to be??? Last I checked, even Milton Freedman didn't claim Adam Smith is God.

Please understand, there is a difference between what is, and what is fair. The plain fact is, even Adam Smith agrees wealth is created by labor.

You are arguing from an emotional pov, while I am stating the current state of how capitalism is practiced in USA. Labor has become just a commodity in production.

Ok, here we go, you are arguing from a blood sucking leach POV -- if both of us characterize each other in such derogatory ways where would it take us, dear brother? Please refrain from such characterizations.

Yes, you are absolutely right, labor has been relegated to the state of mere commodity. What once was a exchange of equal value in commodity, whether directly or transited through a money commodity, the capitalist system of production forced a transformation in which money becomes an end in itself and a medium of banditry. As you say, this is the current state in U.S., yes, it is true, but that does not make it any less a day light robbery.

What is a 'true cost'? What is exploitation?

The true cost is the value labor needs for his and his family's own upkeep at the social and technological level. To force the labor to produce more than that level without an equitable sharing of the surplus is exploitation. The way the system is set up, one that is in total control of the oligarchs, the individual labor is at a monumental disadvantage vis a vis the establishment power.

Even tagging 'equal value' is no more possible because of the segmentation of the 'value' of the same product across different markets. What you are talking about is an idealized free market, which is Utopian and imaginary and can not exist in the complex monetary world of today.

This is not something that was inevitable, this is what the oligarchs have achieved.

BTW, the oligarchy is not an immutable set of people, it is an ever changing establishment that is more interested in controlling the power structure and expropriating the surplus wealth common folks produce. Take a look at the the system we have in the U.S., irrespective of D or R in power, the Wall Street and rich Corporate leadership always get their way. This is demonstrably true. To not see this is to put on huge blinders.

But the answer is not to throw the baby with the bath water. This is best system in history to advance a complex and diverse society in tertms of creating wealth. I do not agree that there are any industrial 'oligarchs' today. Otherwise we would not have new millionnaires and billionaires adding to the list almost every year.

The concentration of wealth towards the top has only increased over time. Please google wealth gap in USA and look for yourself.

Even Adam Smith would agree.

You know, the most powerful and wealthiest nation in the history of civilization lags behind or barely above Cuba in several human welfare indices, that with Cuba being strangled with the most crippling sanctions by the U.S. This is what we have to show for all the freedom to become rich propaganda.

Enough said, Cheers!

 

[KRS]

Dear brother Nara Ji,

My comment is in 'blue':

So dear brother, Adam Smith suddenly came in and declared right to private property trumps everything else, and so it came to be??? Last I checked, even Milton Freedman didn't claim Adam Smith is God.
Please read my post carefully. I did not say AS created the right to property. It happened in England for various reasons and it happened for the benefit of Capitalism, transferring the ownership of what is produced from the laborer to the capitalist. So, please don't put words in my mouth.

Please understand, there is a difference between what is, and what is fair. The plain fact is, even Adam Smith agrees wealth is created by labor.
The issue here is that you think what is fair is that labor should have part of the ownership of the end product. Of course, this is possible today through the ownership of stocks in a company, albeit a non controlling one.

Ok, here we go, you are arguing from a blood sucking leach POV -- if both of us characterize each other in such derogatory ways where would it take us, dear brother? Please refrain from such characterization.
I don't understand - what is derogatory in saying that your argument is emotional - you are a humanist and so empathetic. I can assure you that my words are not meant to be offensive.

Yes, you are absolutely right, labor has been relegated to the state of mere commodity. What once was a exchange of equal value in commodity, whether directly or transited through a money commodity, the capitalist system of production forced a transformation in which money becomes an end in itself and a medium of banditry. As you say, this is the current state in U.S., yes, it is true, but that does not make it any less a day light robbery.
'Robbery', 'Banditry' etc. connote a coordinated and planned actions by a few to deliberately and systematically transform the system to what it is today. I totally reject this idea. We are here today because that was the way the monetary system and the industries evolved in USA. If I may say so, you see only bad things in USA, without appreciating the general great aspects of the system which has created a huge well to do middle class.

The true cost is the value labor needs for his and his family's own upkeep at the social and technological level. To force the labor to produce more than that level without an equitable sharing of the surplus is exploitation. The way the system is set up, one that is in total control of the oligarchs, the individual labor is at a monumental disadvantage vis a vis the establishment power.
I would agree with paying the appropriate wage for sustenance. But this should be market driven and for people earning below sustenance, something like Earned Income Credit to bring it up to appropriate level is appropriate. I think the issue with wages is with unskilled labor, with the illegal immigration.

This is not something that was inevitable, this is what the oligarchs have achieved.

BTW, the oligarchy is not an immutable set of people, it is an ever changing establishment that is more interested in controlling the power structure and expropriating the surplus wealth common folks produce. Take a look at the the system we have in the U.S., irrespective of D or R in power, the Wall Street and rich Corporate leadership always get their way. This is demonstrably true. To not see this is to put on huge blinders.
Only in a theoretical world of an Utopian society there will be perfect power sharing and equilibrium. What you are railing against is an inborn human condition. I would rather milk it for the general good of the society, than to view it as evil.


The concentration of wealth towards the top has only increased over time. Please google wealth gap in USA and look for yourself.
Yes, I know. But the main cause for this is the rapid technology change with the accompanying premium on knowledge. Not because some folks wantonly schemed to corner all the wealth.

You know, the most powerful and wealthiest nation in the history of civilization lags behind or barely above Cuba in several human welfare indices, that with Cuba being strangled with the most crippling sanctions by the U.S. This is what we have to show for all the freedom to become rich propaganda.
Well, ask the Cuban immigrants in Florida (same culture) where they would rather live.

Enough said, Cheers!

Regards,
KRS

 

[suresh2012]

Root cause of corruption:

The root cause of corruption is jealous/greediness. Further in-efficient people are hired in govt jobs. They become greedy when a well educated qualified /hard working person earn lot of money and live comfortably.

Here is the story.

I was working for a software consultancy company in Madras 28 years back. It is very small company having only around 20 people on board. This company got lot of projects because we work very hard/crazily. I was working on a project with defense establishment in
Trichy. During the time we are 5 people used to go by bus , work hard and completed the project.

During the time I have observed that Defense have more than 25 software engineers on board, none of them did any work. The GM of
the factory send false report and support all the lazy people. The defense factory sub-contracted all of their to ECIL and in turn
given to us. All the 25 engineers did nothing they come , chat and buy things at defense canteen sell outside make profit etc.

My salary is not even the salary of lazy engineer at defense factory. But some fellows (they are SC/STs came thru reservation quota)
commented that we are earning lot of money and leading luxury life etc. The truth is we used to work from morning 9am thru night 10pm or late even mid-night got nothing.

Stupid factory fellows were telling that engineers working at the factory learn, after that quit from the job goes to Gulf countries make
several crores of salary per month and then start company..like us and then lead luxury life.

All utter lie and false. Hard working private company engineer who produces everything finally got bad name. A govt. employee loot
and steal, practice corruption got everything.

This is what happening. Honesty, hard work, truth will never succeed in India. India is the most corrupted country in the world.

It does not mean that other countries are not corrupted. Corruption exists in all country, but it is not punishable in India.

One example: Former Illinoise Gov. in USA, got arrested by FBI, on the charge that he tries to sell Obama's vacant Senate seat
to a known person by taking heavy bribe etc..
He is in jail. Nobody supported him, finally he landed in jail. Even I felt very bad. Why?

As a person he is good, but he has bad desire...he landed in jail. that too 22 years.

Corrupt India zindabad... Corrupt Congress Zindabad...

 

[Jaykay767]

Root cause of corruption:

The root cause of corruption is jealous/greediness. Further in-efficient people are hired in govt jobs. They become greedy when a well educated qualified /hard working person earn lot of money and live comfortably.

This is what happening. Honesty, hard work, truth will never succeed in India. India is the most corrupted country in the world.

It does not mean that other countries are not corrupted. Corruption exists in all country, but it is not punishable in India.

Corrupt India zindabad... Corrupt Congress Zindabad...

Hi Suresh,

Sad to read your post, but not surprising at all. Let me add to the root of corruption in India.

1. The land re-destribution, govt take over of the wealth from landlords, princes etc.. is the first action that started corruption. why? - In the past the princely kingdoms & the landlords were the entrepreneurs who provided employement for millions of farmers through out the country. so when the Govt took over the land, all the landlords closed down their businesses & moved abroad, or to the cities etc..

But the lively hood of the farmers was completely destroyed. why? income stopped. what will they do with the 1 or 2 acre land, they cannot grow anything & sell in the market. they had no eduction, no financial, market knowledge let alone business skills. OVERNIGHT INDIA WAS REDUCED TO DIRE POVERTY - ENTIRE RURAL SECTOR WAS DESTROYED, EVEN TODAY YOU CAN SEE THE PEOPLE POURING INTO THE CITIES FROM THE VILLAGES. remember the green revolution, becos the entire food economy collapsed, so the govt went into this green revolution crap !

so the "monkey" Nehru (remember the old monkey story where it kills the king with the sword it was supposed to protect) instead of fixing the landlords for exploting laborers, cruelty etc.. by a simple legislation, took away the lively hood of all the farmers. thats why you keep hearing our "kingdoms" were very rich, people had a lot of money, etc.. Nobody knows or talks about how people suddenly become so poor !! - Congress controlled media - u know what i am talking about here.

2. Govt became the major employer becos of socialist policies, public sector etc. private sector got stiffled due to "license raj". So everyone was fighting, bribing to get into Govt jobs. It was a "survival issue". hence the fight for reservation by various groups. so corruption started from here. Once these people got into the govt, they started looting as much wealth becos they had seen the dire poverty earlier - so human instinct for survival led to massive corruption.

3. Systemic Corruption - Politicians & Govt employees, started systematically looting this wealth by "fixed public auction", discretionary quota where they can allocate this land to their kith & kin in the name of public wealth etc..

3. Most of the brilliant people stiffled by reservation, corruption moved abroad. Brain Drain - best of talent is abroad, leaving the junk, useless, negative folks in India.

4. Democracy changed to "mobocrazy" + "Goodaraj" becos only goondas could come to power by fixing the elections, threatening people to vote for them, threatening the other "honest" candidates, bribing people with sarees & liquor bottle & cash etc..

5. After the Gandhi family destroyed the country completely, we became bankrupt in 1990 & Narasimha Rao unleashed the path breaking reforms, removed "license raj" reviving the private sector & hence most of us today are not bothered about Govt jobs, working in private companies, started our own companies etc..

But the Govt still controlls a large portion of the country's economy, entire rural sector is still in their control, hence no hope there.

for our country, the only solution is privatise all the govt activities & reduce their reach.

Cheers,
JK

 

[Yamaka]

People, Politics and Policies: My two cents on this issue discussed here.

Corruption is everywhere in the world. But the level and intensity is quite different.

In all Third World (developing or under-developed) countries corruption is "felt" by most people at all level: I call it Retail and Wholesale corruption. Corruption is peddled by the lowly clerk in a municipal office at one end and by the Judges and Chief Ministers and Central Ministers on the other end.

Such pervasive corruption is not there in most of the developed countries... but corruption in military procurement etc is there in all countries... but most citizens don't "feel" it... thus I call it "Out of Sight and Out of Mind" type.

Therefore, it appears the Solution is Development: Going from Under-Developed Status to Developed Status.

How to go from here to there?

Historically, as I have said elsewhere, Indians are a quite divided and fragmented people. We are divided by Religion, Caste and Language (the prime reasons why we were very weak, allowing all Tom, Dick and Harry to invade and subjugate us for nearly 1000 years by foreigners!)

Our Politics is very fragmented too because People are fragmented. We have "India Shining" Private Sector Enthusiasts at one end and "Poor India" Populists in the other end and all others in between.

Because of very many political Parties, we have the so-called Coalition Govts: Where it's MORE difficult to implement any Policy.

My simple solution is Quality Education which will instill Integrity and Professionalism in most People, who in turn will make good Politics, which will generate good Policies for long term Growth.

Which means Development for All People.

Therefore, think QE and Growth... as the Solution.

Innum varum..

 

[Jaykay767]

My simple solution is Quality Education which will instill Integrity and Professionalism in most People, who in turn will make good Politics, which will generate good Policies for long term Growth.

Which means Development for All People.

Therefore, think QE and Growth... as the Solution.

Innum varum..

Hi Yamaka,

800 million people have no food, water & shelter, the education is not a priority, survival is. !!.

And providing schools in all the places for these 800 mil is another herculean challenge in this country, which this "incompetent, corrupt" Govt is incapable of. It will not happen in this lifetime or the next !!