Culture-some questions

[Nara]

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Dear Anand,

... What I meant was if the homo population keeps increasing then births can only be achieved by other means like donors.

Given homosexuality is a condition not choice, why would non-hetro population increase? Same sex attraction and gender ambiguity have been around always. If they have survival and reproductive advantage over hetro population, then they may pass on the "homo" gene to the next generation in higher proportion compared to hetro-reproduction. But, leaving the survival advantage alone, it is clear they don't have reproductive advantage, they don't even reproduce.

The only source of new non-hetro population is strictly through traditional hetro-reproduction - in vetro conception is possible but minuscule compared to the hetro reproduction. So, the proportion of non-hetro population is not going to change, if at all it may only go down over thousands of years. The reason we may see an apparent increase in the short run is not because there is an increase in their numbers, but only because more of them don't feel a need to stay closeted.

A baby could have two loving fathers or two loving mothers instead of a dad and mom. Is this good for the child's upbringing?

The research on this is clear, there is no difference. The important factor for a healthy and happy childhood is not whether the child's parents are of opposite or same gender, it is one of love and nurture.

What about cloning?

If cloning becomes common, men will become increasingly redundant, which is probably a good thing for the planet.

Cheers!

 

[nachi naga]

omg,the philosophy of maya by maya vadi tatva is so true

cloning;made to order test-tube babies;same sex marriage/live-in;instead of doing things naturally as designed naturally some minor variations of mental sickness,like homo-sexuality can be treated,provided if one wants treatment.now even homo-sexuality is a natural phenomena,we have had such characters in mahabharatham .imho,its all a mental state of being,liberatng our mind is probably the clue or solution.

 

[tbs]

hi folks,
china can produce anything.....mechine to man.....only customers are required....just in USA ...DOLLAR TREE/ DOLLAR GENERAL

still flourishing may equally with walmart/ target stores...may be we can buy a designer human baby at WALMART... who knows?

home sexuals are not new to human society... in olden vedic periods it was practised.....just vist any temple gopurams of famous temples

of tamil nadu....you can get visual form of homo sexual.... i myself saw in kapaleeswarar temple/ sri govindarajaswamy temple

gopuram in tirupati....so its nothing new to us...it was practised a long ago....still practice very common....in many army camps of

world....its normal practise....still in indian army.....i know very welll....just info..........


regards
tbs

 

[AnanthaNarayanan]

Today I have seen a programme "kauthuka lokam" in asianet. Renting out the motherhood to un know couples in India and even to foreigners is widely in the Gujarat and in other states.
There are some hospitals flourishing in this field. And also they are getting the mothers for this purpose very easily from near by. Only thing they should have married and having a child of her own. Once they agreed they have shift to the hospital’s place till the delivery.
Just to pay 3 lac and have the child with out pain. This setup may require to some who can’t conceive a baby in their life time.
A girl having 3 yr old baby, in her 6 th month telling that they want this money for the well being of the family as a whole.
Any body wants a child can have this means what is the logic behind this and the sanctity of a mother in ?
This shows poor people still struggling to keep up there standard. Actually who make this standard?
Cost of living is more, education is not reachable to common man in good institutions (now GOI instruction for some % seats for poor), social status every thing.
Now every thing is set by visual Medias through ads is having more impact on ppl. Cost is being increased by adds costing billions of Rs going into few pockets. (Now M dhoni tops in add got 125 corers per annum).
How many corer of Rs spent on DTH every year and every body will have connections in there homes as a status symbol, but we never bothers to think about this huge vanishing money in thin air,,,,

 

[sangom]

Any body wants a child can have this means what is the logic behind this and the sanctity of a mother in ?

Dear Ananthanarayanan,

The world has changed in many ways, particularly during the past few decades. In olden days pregnancy of unmarried girls was virtually nil; the rare cases in which such pregnancies resulted in births used to be kept secret and the newborn was not killed. But this tendency became rampant in the last decade or so in Kerala (newborns wrapped in newspaper and thrown in waste heaps in public places) and the "Ammathottil" (mother's cradle) scheme was launched. Thus the love of mother for the child delivered by her is also vanishing slowly. A child nowadays is more of a status symbol for many young women than a part of their heart and soul. The surrogate mother scheme suits this psychology nicely.

 

[praveen]

To Nara -
This is with reference to one of your posts in this thread. i am reproducing the exact email/feedback that was sent.

Sir,

This is w.r.t to the following discussion where my blog is quoted..
http://www.tamilbrahmins.com/general-discussions/4733-culture-some-questions.html#post53131

I am not a brahmin and hence i did not register here. I am a kongu vellalar..

One of your member (profile: nara) had outrightly rejected my blog in negative tone. I have answers for him, but since i could not reply in this thread, i am pasting here.

The particular blog on India before britishers is NOT my own creation. It is a summary of Dharampal's works, which is based on british archivals.

The member had mentioned me as casteists, by quoting a particular line. I challenge him for a debate, either in a forum or in mail. I challenge your member, what data he has to describe the castes before britishers?

Also he has attacked madisars or kudumis as backward and only britishers introduced pants , shirts etc.. there are so many iyer mess in tamilnadu.. there are so many iyengar appalam depots where brahmin women work.. what dress they wear? Madisar... when women can work in madisar, run a mess, it means the dress is not an important criteria for work..

The member has exhibited a total colonial mindset, but the more severe is the case that he happens to ridicule every one else..

Please do not reply to this message in this thread. I posted it just to bring it to your attention (as well as others). If you would like to contact this person, send me a message and i can share his email id.


I am also sending him the link of this post.

 

[kunjuppu]

praveen,

i am sorry and pained to see that this member felt uncomfortable joining us because he was not a brahmin.

maybe we are putting a glass walls without our own knowledge for other castes.

how can we ensure that other castes are welcome provided that they are hindu centric and basically have no quarrel with us as a community?

thanks.

 

[pannvalan]

Of late, I am observing some members are showing 'oneupmanship' simply because of the reason they were educated in the most reputed universities in USA/UK. They also seem to derive pride in saying they have discarded their age-old traditions, saying they are not in sync with modern times. They at times go to the extent of ridiculing other beliefs, arguments and some basic truth itself. My intelligent friends would have easily guessed whom I am referring to.

They simply toe the line of the famous (!) British and European historians, on the ground the India learnt everything from the west including its modern civilisation. How atrocious and insulting!

This kind of Bharath-bashing is not in good taste and shall be condemned strongly, by everybody.

If someone ventures to call our ancestors 'fools', without any hesitation, I will call them a lunatic or a fanatic.

We can exchange our ideas, notions, philosophies, concepts, thoughts, beliefs and conclusions here. But, one cannot brush aside all others' inputs, by imposing his/her own on others.

Many are under the impression that mere studying of so many subjects or books or acquiring a few degrees abroad or submission of some research papers in the international fora will make him/her a taller person, in terms of scholarship, acumen, erudition, wisdom, sagacity and intelligence. No, certainly not.

I am aware of the weakness in our social systems and processes. I accept the fact that everything is not alright, as is the case with every other society in the world. But, that shall not give the liberty and freedom to anybody to sling mud on my culture. I will not allow that under any circumstances, I am very clear and firm.

Beware, the pseudo-elites!

 

[kunjuppu]

Of late, I am observing some members are showing 'oneupmanship' simply because of the reason they were educated in the most reputed universities in USA/UK. They also seem to derive pride in saying they have discarded their age-old traditions, saying they are not in sync with modern times. They at times go to the extent of ridiculing other beliefs, arguments and some basic truth itself. My intelligent friends would have easily guessed whom I am referring to.

They simply toe the line of the famous (!) British and European historians, on the ground the India learnt everything from the west including its modern civilisation. How atrocious and insulting!

This kind of Bharath-bashing is not in good taste and shall be condemned strongly, by everybody.

If someone ventures to call our ancestors 'fools', without any hesitation, I will call them a lunatic or a fanatic.

We can exchange our ideas, notions, philosophies, concepts, thoughts, beliefs and conclusions here. But, one cannot brush aside all others' inputs, by imposing his/her own on others.

Many are under the impression that mere studying of so many subjects or books or acquiring a few degrees abroad or submission of some research papers in the international fora will make him/her a taller person, in terms of scholarship, acumen, erudition, wisdom, sagacity and intelligence. No, certainly not.

I am aware of the weakness in our social systems and processes. I accept the fact that everything is not alright, as is the case with every other society in the world. But, that shall not give the liberty and freedom to anybody to sling mud on my culture. I will not allow that under any circumstances, I am very clear and firm.

Beware, the pseudo-elites!

pann,

you have summed up very well and elegantly (as you always do in your posts) my own feelings in the last paragraph. we have warts, and so does everyone else. we realized our warts, and we are in the process of cleansing them.

i think towards that end all of us are committed. infact, many of the discussions here, pertain to how quickly and how thorough the cleansing should be.

i think, within a family as we proclaim to be, it should be ok, to freely express ourselves. infact on the few occassions when we have had blatant 'outsiders' mocking us, all of us have united and shown the intruder the door. which is what it should be...

re education abroad having a slant on our faiths and beliefs, i am not so sure. you might notice that the biggest critiques of our society has come from within and so has the biggest fillips to change - whether it be vivekananda, narayana guru or periyar. each one of these have left their imprint on our society, all of them in the end bettering atleast some groups of people, though not all.

there is work to be done, and it is only left to a leader with a vision, to grab the mantle and push for changes, hopefully this time, inclusively.

re intelligent friends and age old traditions, i am not so sure, that any one person here fits the sleeve. all of us, including yourself, has some manner, criticised the past and the past-timers.

if you find someone extremely offensive for you to bear, it may be better, that you name the person, and challenge him/her directly. that would be the right thing to do, instead of innuendos. because, there may be a lot of people wondering if they were the ones that you addressed.

 

[sangom]

...if you find someone extremely offensive for you to bear, it may be better, that you name the person, and challenge him/her directly. that would be the right thing to do, instead of innuendos. because, there may be a lot of people wondering if they were the ones that you addressed.

Dear Kunjuppu,

I fully endorse your comment. If we find some comment/s offensive we should be bold enough to name names.

Another point on which I am not clear is what many of us term as "our culture"; if we take a very broad view it will comprise the culture of all Indians. If we mean the culture of TBs - which is the narrowest possible before we go into the cultures and customs of sub-castes/groups, even that has not been static and has been undergoing vast changes. So, if someone criticizes our dress, or any other such external aspect, will it amount to an attack of our culture? I do not know.

 

[Raghy]

Sri.Praveen,

Greetings. With respect to your post #81, it would be nice to follow the debate, if it takes place between Sri.Nara and our Kongu Vellalar Friend.

To Sri.Senthilraja :- Dear sir, Kindly join our forum and express your views. Although we call this Tamil Brahmins forum, we welcome everyone here. I grew up with all communities. Kindly read some of our messages; we also strive to help other communities too, although in a small way (we are small).

Cheers!

 

[happyhindu]

I think Senthilraja's displeasure comes from this post:

Originally Posted by RVR India before British Invasion – Dharampal’s findings « Senthilraja’s blog

DHARAMPAL's India

Folks, any Tom, Dick, and Harry can start a blog and write whatever is in his/her mind. All it takes is an internet connection and some free time. Other than the blogs that have earned the reputation for factually accurate presentation, it is best to look at all other blogs with a heavy dose of skepticism.

This particular blog is full of opinions and half truths. There were some out and out falsehoods as well. Here is one:

Today’s backward classes or Sudras cultural and economic backwardness is post 1800 due to impact of British economic policies.
​

This is the reason one has to dig up the past and show what the truth really is, otherwise, these unabashed casteists like the author of this blog will rewrite history, and find enough takers to nod their heads vigorously, and applaud enthusiastically, in motivated agreement. There is enough evidence to show that untouchability and horrendous caste-based oppression existed long before Britain was even a nation state.

Having said all this, I can offer some help that is just not some opinionated blog, to anyone wanting to do some chest pounding about India's past glory. Here is an article from The Independent Newspaper of UK that appeared on July 27, just before PM Cameron's visit to India.

Indian summer: the twilight of British influence in India - Asia, World - The Independent

It looks like even 500 years ago, China was beating India in production!!

It wud be a better decision if both Shri Nara and Shri Senthiraja engage in a conversation to sort out each one's thots (misunderstandings ?).

Based on what shri Senthilraja says i think the conversation between him and Shri Nara will be on the following two accounts which i have marked as 1 and 2:

One of your member (profile: nara) had outrightly rejected my blog in negative tone. I have answers for him, but since i could not reply in this thread, i am pasting here.

The particular blog on India before britishers is NOT my own creation. It is a summary of Dharampal's works, which is based on british archivals.

1)
The member had mentioned me as casteists, by quoting a particular line. I challenge him for a debate, either in a forum or in mail. I challenge your member, what data he has to describe the castes before britishers?

2)
Also he has attacked madisars or kudumis as backward and only britishers introduced pants , shirts etc.. there are so many iyer mess in tamilnadu.. there are so many iyengar appalam depots where brahmin women work.. what dress they wear? Madisar... when women can work in madisar, run a mess, it means the dress is not an important criteria for work..

The member has exhibited a total colonial mindset, but the more severe is the case that he happens to ridicule every one else..

I suppose Shri Senthilraja's displeasure comes from being called a casteist. For my part, i can tell him that "Casteist" is not a bad word. Its just a word used in the context of defining a person who deals with the topic of caste; and brings caste into the picture in almost everything. In that sense, I am a casteist and so is Shri Nara -- because we are talking about caste all the time here.

Castesim as defined in an online dictionary: Caste | Define Caste at Dictionary.com

As far as data to describe caste before the britishers is concerned, its there all over our scriptures.

Anyways, i suppose it is best for both Shri Nara and Shri Senthilraja to enter into a discussion to sort out these things.

Apparently, Shri Senthilraja has not created the content on his own and has summarized the works of someone called Dharampal. It wud have been much better if Shri Nara were to engage shri Dharampal here. But i googled and found just now that Shri Dharampal is no more: DHARAMPAL's India

So, its between Shri Nara and Shri Senthilraja now...

 

[happyhindu]

Dear Shri Pannvalan,

Please be clear who you meant.

From my part, I can tell you that no one here (including Shri Nara and Shri Sangom) is "toeing the line" of western historians. Well, historians are historians, if there is valid proof how does it matter where the historian is from.

When it comes to toeing lines, infact, it may even be possible that some folks such as yourself want everyone to "toe the line" of some gurus without questioning. If am not wrong, you too had mentioned that the kanchi guru's "words are final". So, if anyone questions somethings, he / she probably become an enemy in your eyes. Sir, my learning may have become biased, but now i think, whose learning is not and whose leanings are not?

And sir, you seem to be under a few fallacies. So let me clarify:

1) No one here is "imposing" their ideas, notions, philosophies, concepts, thoughts, beliefs and conclusions on anyone here. If there is a civil discussion, please come forward to do so.

2) According to you studying does not make one a taller person. Yes i almost agree with that. But sir, one canot deny that studying does open up one's mind to various things. Instead, a man who chooses not to study may be stuck in the same rut. I suppose it is innate in all of us to study anything. Otherwise why wud so many people be crowding around magazine-staals in railway stations..why do publications such as film-fare, femina, etc exist..why do so many people buy a newspaper everyday..

3) And there is no "Bharat-bashing" here. Please no need to bring patriotism scene here. Everyone here is as much an Indian in ethnicity and culture as you are.

Of late, I am observing some members are showing 'oneupmanship' simply because of the reason they were educated in the most reputed universities in USA/UK. They also seem to derive pride in saying they have discarded their age-old traditions, saying they are not in sync with modern times. They at times go to the extent of ridiculing other beliefs, arguments and some basic truth itself. My intelligent friends would have easily guessed whom I am referring to.

They simply toe the line of the famous (!) British and European historians, on the ground the India learnt everything from the west including its modern civilisation. How atrocious and insulting!

This kind of Bharath-bashing is not in good taste and shall be condemned strongly, by everybody.

If someone ventures to call our ancestors 'fools', without any hesitation, I will call them a lunatic or a fanatic.

We can exchange our ideas, notions, philosophies, concepts, thoughts, beliefs and conclusions here. But, one cannot brush aside all others' inputs, by imposing his/her own on others.

Many are under the impression that mere studying of so many subjects or books or acquiring a few degrees abroad or submission of some research papers in the international fora will make him/her a taller person, in terms of scholarship, acumen, erudition, wisdom, sagacity and intelligence. No, certainly not.

I am aware of the weakness in our social systems and processes. I accept the fact that everything is not alright, as is the case with every other society in the world. But, that shall not give the liberty and freedom to anybody to sling mud on my culture. I will not allow that under any circumstances, I am very clear and firm.

Beware, the pseudo-elites!

 

[Nara]

To Nara -
This is with reference to one of your posts in this thread. i am reproducing the exact email/feedback that was sent.

Dear praveen,

Since this person has taken offense to what I wrote here I think it is only proper that he challenges me here and I am willing to engage him. If the gentleman sees this post I invite him to register and present his case.

I am out of town till the end of this week and therefore my response may not be quick until I get back. Until then I shall respond as time permits.

Praveen, feel free to forward this post to the gentleman.

Thank you....

 

[Nara]

....From my part, I can tell you that no one here (including Shri Nara and Shri Sangom) is "toeing the line" of western historians. Well, historians are historians, if there is valid proof how does it matter where the historian is from.

Yes Happy, I rarely if ever cite western historians, neither does Shri sangom. I just read his one more clinical presentation of avarna references from orthodox as well as academic perspective.

Shri pannvalan is unhappy with singing mud on his culture, which I guess is Brahminism. But culture of Bharath is much wider than the narrow and narrow-minded Brahminism. Slinging mud on Brahminism only elevates our common culture of great Bharath that produced so many geniuses in spite of the so called Sanatana Darma. Today, the most prominent thing all inhabitants of Bharat can take pride in is Buddism that has spread the world over without the help of sword, and the thing all with Bharat connection should be ashamed of is the oppressive caste system and the noxious concept of untouchability -- both are product of Brahminism.

This criticism directed at unnamed offenders is another episode in the saga of criticizing people for the view they express instead of arguing the views they express. Take the case with Kancha Illiah, all he said did was explain why he does not want to be a Hindu, but this has been deliberately changed to an attempt on his part to to destroy Hinduism. So far, nobody has been able to answer the questions he raises, but there has been tons of personal attacks against him. Well, what else can we expect from people who have run out of valid arguments.

One thing I agree with Pannvalan is what he says about pseudo-elites, but if there is anyone we must be even more cautious about is the actual elites.

Cheers!

 

[Raghy]

Sri.Kunjuppu said -

you might notice that the biggest critiques of our society has come from within and so has the biggest fillips to change - whether it be vivekananda, narayana guru or periyar. each one of these have left their imprint on our society, all of them in the end bettering atleast some groups of people, though not all.

Sri.Kunjuppu, Greetings. Ramasamy Naicker incited and encouraged voilence against one group of people when he said 'பார்ப்பானையும் பாம்பையும் ஒரே நேரத்தில் பார்த்தால் பார்ப்பானை அடி'. Grouping Sri.Vivekanananda and Sri.Narayana guru with Ramasamy naicker does not seem right. I don't think you are doing justice to Sri.Vivekananda and Sri.Narayana Guru.

Cheers!

 

[pannvalan]

Indian culture

My reply is attached hereto.

 

[happyhindu]

Shri Pannvalan,

Am doing a copy-paste of your attachment below for the benefit of all readers; and have increased the font size (PS: am not able to figure out to whom you directed your reply to).

INDIA AND ITS CULTURE​

1. First, I would like to clear certain misconceptions. I never shun criticism. But, criticism shall not turn into abuse, virulent attack and in the name of reforms, see only at the darker part of everything.

2. I emphatically say that our Indian culture (note, not just Brahminism) has its own shortfalls and deficiencies. But, it is yet far superior to most of the cultures in the present world.

3. While we have ready acceptance for all the inventions and discoveries of the western world, we belittle our scientific, medical, mathematical and astronomical achievements over the past 3 thousand years. We either shut our eyes to them or deride them, because they have no proper explanation and verifiable process, by the western standards.

4. If some western scientist or philosopher praises some of our findings (e.g. the concept of Zero), we also join them, that's all. Have we ever done a serious study of our own?

5. Unfortunately, majority of the historians (recognized as such) in India today have a leaning towards Marxism or they promote Atheism or Pseudo-secularism (meaning promotion of all religions except Hinduism) and anti-brahminism.

6. I personally do not support everything that is considered 'brahmanical'. (Don’t see everything through the prism of Brahmins - Tamil Brahmins).

7. In the true path of 'spiritualism', India has no parallel in the world.

8. The present political dispensation and the bureaucratic set-up at the state and central levels are highly corrupt, inefficient, self-centred and even unpatriotic. Even though they guide the destiny of the nation and its people, they are not permanent and they form only less than 0.01% of my country's population. For their misdeeds and wrong beliefs, I do not want my country and its culture to be attacked.

9.As Raghy has said bracketing Vivekananda with EVR is incorrect and insulting Vivekananda and the like.

10. In the name of reviewing and remedying, we shall not condemn and reject everything that constitute our culture.

11. In turbulent times, jettisoning is alright and acceptable, but suggestion for abandoning or sinking the vessel itself is never acceptable.

12. I am very confident that the soul of 'Bharat' is intact, in spite of the happenings outside. Therefore, to treat some external maladies, attempts made to destroy the soul are to be resisted. (I am sure, as someone has mentioned, none could succeed so far in this direction during the past 1500 years).

13. India is the only country in the world which has been subjected to so many invasions, from different directions of the world, in the past. We lost many our priceless treasures and cultural wealth when we were under aliens rule for 1500 years. We shall not allow any such thing to happen again.

14. India attained independence only 63 years ago, whereas Britain, USA and France attained total independence from internal despotism or external forces, long back. I am sure, we will surpass these nations in terms of education, scientific advancements, strong military might, economic progress and wealth, mineral wealth, space missions, poverty eradication, good infrastructure, health and transport and telecommunication, in a few decades hence. (If not 2020, it will be by 2050). Let us have patience till then.

15. The whole world order is changing and changing for the better. In another 100 years, the world order would have changed topsy-turvy, but in a positive sense.

16. I am sure, if others agree or not, NRIs/POI lose their right of criticism of Indian culture, beyond certain point, especially when they have no intention of returning to India for permanent settlement. Their umbilical cord has already been severed and except for some brief visits to this country once in a blue moon, what interest shall theyhave to rewrite the history of our nation?

17. Those who want to implement some sweeping reforms, first come back and begin the job yourself here. Do not shout from the other shores.

18. Finally, I would ask, tell me honestly, how much of your writings has contributed positively except for finding fault with the present? I wish to know the exact percentage of positive inputs vis-à-vis the criticism or even condemnation made by you. Expression of mere concern will not cut the ice.

I do not blame everybody living abroad, but only those who write long sermons by sitting on the ivory towers.

I concur with the observation made by Kunjuppu that changes, corrections and reforms must come from within and I am sure, they will come from within.

Jai Hind!

 

[happyhindu]

Shri Pannvalan,

If you may please provide a few clarifications:

The present political dispensation and the bureaucratic set-up at the state and central levels are highly corrupt, inefficient, self-centred and even unpatriotic. Even though they guide the destiny of the nation and its people, they are not permanent and they form only less than 0.01% of my country's population. For their misdeeds and wrong beliefs, I do not want my country and its culture to be attacked...

In the name of reviewing and remedying, we shall not condemn and reject everything that constitute our culture.

Please let me know what defines "our culture". What all does it include and what all does it exclude, according to you?

In turbulent times, jettisoning is alright and acceptable, but suggestion for abandoning or sinking the vessel itself is never acceptable.

May i know what is this about? Who has suggested abandoning or sinking vessel?

I am very confident that the soul of 'Bharat' is intact, in spite of the happenings outside. Therefore, to treat some external maladies, attempts made to destroy the soul are to be resisted. (I am sure, as someone has mentioned, none could succeed so far in this direction during the past 1500 years)...

India is the only country in the world which has been subjected to so many invasions, from different directions of the world, in the past. We lost many our priceless treasures and cultural wealth when we were under aliens rule for 1500 years. We shall not allow any such thing to happen again. ..

India attained independence only 63 years ago, whereas Britain, USA and France attained total independence from internal despotism or external forces, long back. I am sure, we will surpass these nations in terms of education, scientific advancements, strong military might, economic progress and wealth, mineral wealth, space missions, poverty eradication, good infrastructure, health and transport and telecommunication, in a few decades hence. (If not 2020, it will be by 2050). Let us have patience till then.

Sir, you have written a lot of bombastic stuff, but am not sure if India is under some sort of a seige !!. Everyone here is as much an Indian as you are (and yes i also have an Indian passport now).

I am sure, if others agree or not, NRIs/POI lose their right of criticism of Indian culture, beyond certain point especially when they have no intention of returning to India for permanent settlement. Their umbilical cord has already been severed and except for some brief visits to this country once in a blue moon, what interest shall they have to rewrite the history of our nation?

Well, this is one great way of telling off posts from those staying overseas -- by telling them that they have no right to post for flimsy reasons. AFAIK, everyone who posts are first generation immigrants whose parents, relatives, families, friends are in India. Btw, Shri Sangom lives in India. And i will be returning to India soon.

Those who want to implement some sweeping reforms, first come back and begin the job yourself here. Do not shout from the other shores.

Am not really sure who is doing the shouting. But rest assured, everyone is involved in their own way of reaching out to the less-fortunate in India, except that they do not do it for publicity or tax-rebates and so on..

Finally, I would ask, tell me honestly, how much of your writings has contributed positively except for finding fault with the present? I wish to know the exact percentage of positive inputs vis-à-vis the criticism or even condemnation made by you. Expression of mere concern will not cut the ice.

So everyone must simply kowtow and "toe the lines" of things propagated by gurus. And anyone who discusses anything otherwise is labelled as a "fault-finder".

Sir, your personal opinion is that these type of talks do not contribute to anything positive. But the fact that defenders of some things take the trouble to post, itself means there is something positive going on (in terms of each one's thot process)..

I do not blame everybody living abroad, but only those who write long sermons by sitting on the ivory towers.

I do not think anyone living overseas is sitting in "ivory towers". I, for one, am a very middle class person.

I concur with the observation made by Kunjuppu that changes, corrections and reforms must come from within and I am sure, they will come from within.

How will they come, can you please elaborate?

 

[sangom]

Many are under the impression that mere studying of so many subjects or books or acquiring a few degrees abroad or submission of some research papers in the international fora will make him/her a taller person, in terms of scholarship, acumen, erudition, wisdom, sagacity and intelligence. No, certainly not.

I find Manu disagreeing with the above sentiment (Apologies for bringing in Manu who seems to be no longer part of Hinduism, if one goes by some of the posts here):

वित्तम् बन्धुर् वयः कर्म विद्या भवति पन्चमी । एतानि मान्यस्थानानि गरीयो यद्यदुत्तरम् ॥ २-१३६
Wealth, kindred, age, (the due performance of) rites, and, fifthly, learning are titles to respect; but
each later-named (cause) is more weighty (than the preceding ones). 2-136

So, Manu seems to have been under an erroneous impression!

 

[pannvalan]

My apologies to the highly learned people, who know the value of humility. I respect the value of education and that's why I believe in continuing education - both formal and informal. But mere education will be useless, if it leads to haughtiness and bloated ego.

More than anything else, selflessness and service to the humanity will speak louder than one's words.

 

[RVR]

praveen,

i am sorry and pained to see that this member felt uncomfortable joining us because he was not a brahmin.

maybe we are putting a glass walls without our own knowledge for other castes.

how can we ensure that other castes are welcome provided that they are hindu centric and basically have no quarrel with us as a community?

thanks.

Sri Kunjuppu,

Sri Senthilraja has created a blog on Indian History during British rule. He has given a gist of the original work on this subject of an eminent historian Late Sri Dharmapal. More about Sri Dharmapal is available in the following link

Dharampal - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

I only gave a link during the discussions in this thread and I personally apologies Sri Senthilraaja for the treatment meted out to him in this forum

If some body in this forum writes about them as `Tom, Dick and Harry', do you expect them to join this forum.

Now Sri Senthilrajaa has written to the forum administration and they have also reproduced the same as it is.

Please touch your consciousness and tell us who is driving away people from entering this forum. Is it the administration or few individual members?

After seeing the posting of Sri Senthil Raaja, I personally feel that unless some decency is maintained, there is no point in continuing in this forum.

Let me also keep away from this forum till it improves its functioning.

Till then, Good bye

All the best

 

[happyhindu]

Sri Kunjuppu,

Sri Senthilraja has created a blog on Indian History during British rule. He has given a gist of the original work on this subject an eminent historian Late Sri Dharmapal. More about Sri Dharmapal is available in the following link

Dharampal - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

I only gave a link during the discussions in this thread and I personally apologies Sri Senthilraaja for the treatment meted out to him in this forum

If some body in this forum writes about them as `Tom, Dick and Harry', do you expect them to join this forum.

Now Sri Senthilrajaa has written to the forum administration and they have also reproduced the same as it is.

Please touch your consciousness and tell us who is driving people from entering this forum. Is it the administration or few individual members?

After seeing the posting of Sri Senthil Raaja, I personally feel that unless some decency is maintained, there is no point in continuing in this forum.

Let me also keep away from this forum till it improves its functioning.

Till then, Good bye

All the best

Sir,

Shri Senthiraja has not yet joined the forum and engaged in a conversation with Shri Nara.

However, you seem keen to apologise for "the treatment meted out to him in this forum" even before he joins here.

If he wishes to join in and converse with Shri Nara, let it be at his own will and discretion.

AFAI understand, Shri Senthilraja did not join because he says he is not a brahmin -- well, that's what prevented him from joining (caste affiliation). Not anything else as you assume.

Btw sir, though you may keep away from the forum, please do keep me informed from time to time, of your efforts to convert into a proud shudra legally.

Regards.

 

[sravna]

Let us make one thing very clear. Vedas and laws of Manu are inherently oriented towards prescribing and meeting spiritual objectives, the ultimate one being the moksha. What happens in the physical world has a hidden purpose and not to be taken at face value. Physical lineage of a person is is a lot less significant factor in any real assessment when compared to the spiritual path of that soul, though this is not patent.

We have the self and the external world. The self has to make progress given the set up it finds itself in. Mother, wife, son and other relations along with rest of the attachments and desires are there only for the benefit of learning of the soul and in making progress spiritually.

So when you say a particular varna is lower and that this discrimination is propagated through birth, you have to bear in mind that soul takes physical birth according to the karma and therefore the gunas. So when you ask why a son of a sudra should be a sudra, you are ignoring the truth that it is a part of the spiritual path of the soul of the son.

Though determining varna by birth is not perfect and there may be brahmins who by nature do not deserve that status and also say, ksatriyas who have the nature of brahmins. These anamolies need to be accounted for. It may be that the nature of the yuga has a role to play. For example in the kali yuga the most decadent yuga, we see the complementary roles losing their distinctive values and their clear-cut boundaries. For example we see females taking up jobs that were traditionally male and vice versa and kshatriyas taking up the jobs of brahmins and vice versa etc.

It seems that brahmin by birth is something less to be proud of in a kali yuga than say, in a satya yuga.

 

[happyhindu]

Let us make one thing very clear. Vedas and laws of Manu are inherently oriented towards prescribing and meeting spiritual objectives, the ultimate one being the moksha. What happens in the physical world has a hidden purpose and not to be taken at face value. Physical lineage of a person is is a lot less significant factor in any real assessment when compared to the spiritual path of that soul, though this is not patent.

We have the self and the external world. The self has to make progress given the set up it finds itself in. Mother, wife, son and other relations along with rest of the attachments and desires are there only for the benefit of learning of the soul and in making progress spiritually.

So when you say a particular varna is lower and that this discrimination is propagated through birth, you have to bear in mind that soul takes physical birth according to the karma and therefore the gunas. So when you ask why a son of a sudra should be a sudra, you are ignoring the truth that it is a part of the spiritual path of the soul of the son.

Though determining varna by birth is not perfect and there may be brahmins who by nature do not deserve that status and also say, ksatriyas who have the nature of brahmins. These anamolies need to be accounted for. It may be that the nature of the yuga has a role to play. For example in the kali yuga the most decadent yuga, we see the complementary roles losing their distinctive values and their clear-cut boundaries. For example we see females taking up jobs that were traditionally male and vice versa and kshatriyas taking up the jobs of brahmins and vice versa etc.

It seems that brahmin by birth is something less to be proud of in a kali yuga than say, in a satya yuga.

Sir, if a boy is born with inclinations to be a trader but is forced to take to purohitam just because his father was in the same line, how do you account for inherent varna / occupation by birth.

In anycase, all such explantions are for folks who discuss it...If you go to a dalit basti, you do not find kids who want to be cleaners and scavengers anymore, they want to study and get into good jobs.

And if you ask anyone what business does a priest have or a kshatriya have, to force a dalit to follow the occupation of their forefathers, the answer is NONE.