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Declining tambram numbers..

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Sh.RVR, declining numbers is the concern. But given a chance, for your own son or daughter, and inorder to maintain the tradition to some extend at least, which one you will choose ?

1) Brahmin Muslim convert
2) Christian Vellala
3) Paraiah Hindu

Sri ShivKC,

I am sorry I cannot answer an hypothetical question.

I have three children on 20 plus age group. My eldest son is aged 27 years and is very well settled in life. But he doesn't want marriage now.

I have brought all my children with liberal thinking and at the same time respecting traditional values. It was a great shock to my children when they came to know that they will be discriminated on college admissions based on their caste at the time of school final stage only.

They will openly come and discuss with me if they like somebody and ask for my opinion. Definitely my wife and me will respect the views of our children and at the same time I am sure our children will also respect our wishes. Everything will be discussed with pros and cons at that time and I am sure we will take a collective decision in the interest of our family as well as at the best interest of the concerned kid.

All the best
 
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Dear Sri RVR Ji,

Thank you for your response.

But, alas, I still do not have an answer to my first question.

Why should we, as Tamil Brahmins need to propagate as a people today? What value we bring to the modern society, to justify our existence?

I asked this question not with a view to deny our existence, but to define sharply in our own mind, who we are. Your answer only reinforces my statement that we are in a 'thirisanghu swargam'.

Your response that 'because our forefathers did so, we should follow it', does not follow logic. Because, for the most part, WE ARE NOT FOLLOWING WHAT OUR FOREFATHERS DID!

Your response to my second point is also disappointing. You seem to think that 'west' means USA. Sir, Tamil Brahmins are settled in various western countries. But, if you want, we can open up a separate thread and discuss various topics that people from India are fed by the socialist media to believe. I will spend my time to educate anyone as to why the USA had to do what you accuse her of doing. By the way, Professor Nara may intervene and refute, and that will show you that 'we from the west' are not a monolithic group.

By the way, how is it relevant to the question at hand? We are talking about our community's condition, and you seem to connect it to the histories of nations we live in. Please explain, how these are inter connected.

Finally, I did not 'brush aside' the input from those who participated in your swayamvarams. Because you advertised that you had an astrologer at hand, you have pre selected those who have attended these swayamvarams to the more conservatives of our clan. This sample, can not then represent the broadest section of our community. That is what I meant, without any negativity.

Regards,
KRS
 
Sri KRS ji,

My views are in blue.

Dear Sri RVR Ji,

Thank you for your response.

But, alas, I still do not have an answer to my first question.

Why should we, as Tamil Brahmins need to propagate as a people today? What value we bring to the modern society, to justify our existence?

We were never rulers in the past and we were at best played the role of advisers to the rulers. Our principle of Ahimsa and non-violence are our core strenghth.


We have contributed very much to the Tamil Language in the past which nobody can deny. There are several Brahmins among Azhwars and Nayanmars. Saint Arunagirinathar, Abhirami Battar, Subramanya Bharathi, U. Ve. Swaminatha Iyer and several others have contributed to the Tamil Literature in the past.

During freedom struggle several brahmins have sacrificed their life, property and time to the national struggle.

Even today Tamil Brahmins are very much respected by the society for their honesty, sincerity and capability in spite of denying Government jobs.

Lot of brahmins are doing selfless service to the society even today. Dr Badrinath of Sankara Nethralaya and Dr. Shanta of Adyar Cancer Institute are some examples. TVS group has promoted Sundaram Medical Foundation as a Trust. One of the daughters of T V Sundaram Iyengar, Dr T S Soundaram has dedicated her entire life for rural development by creating Gandhigram Rural Institute near Dindugal.

As a community, Tamil Brahmins have to continuously contribute to the society. Few decades back when we were in villages, we lived as a group where not only our parents but other elders also imparted these values to us. Today after migrating to the cities, we don't meet each other on day to day basis due to the nature of our work. However, we can always have an association where we can meet at regular intervals and continue to serve the society. We can also set an example to our younger generation that materialistic life is not the end by itself.



I asked this question not with a view to deny our existence, but to define sharply in our own mind, who we are. Your answer only reinforces my statement that we are in a 'thirisanghu swargam'.*

May be you have concluded that we have reached a stage of Thrisangu swargam. It is purely your opinion and you can hold it. I am meeting several members of our community including lots of youngsters. Our youngsters are all highly optimistic and focused on their objectives. Definitely I shall open the topic of `Thirusangu Swargam' with them and suggest a self introspection within ourselves.


Your response that 'because our forefathers did so, we should follow it', does not follow logic. Because, for the most part, WE ARE NOT FOLLOWING WHAT OUR FOREFATHERS DID!

Our forefathers definitely had vision. We are not losing our routes and continue to keep our routes alive. For example in my own native village, we are meeting twice annually and discuss several issues including maintenance of temples, school etc. All these things have been created by our forefathers for the entire village and we have formed a separate trust to continue the services with further contributions from expatriates. We also adopt changes wherever required to suite the present day conditions.

second point is also disappointing. You seem to think that 'west' means USA. Sir, Tamil Brahmins are settled in various western countries. But, if you want, we can open up a separate thread and discuss various topics that people from India are fed by the socialist media to believe. I will spend my time to educate anyone as to why the USA had to do what you accuse her of doing. By the way, Professor Nara may intervene and refute, and that will show you that 'we from the west' are not a monolithic group.

I don't mind discussing things county wise if you want. Even here within India itself, we have divergent views but we always try to arrive at consensus through discussions and delibrations.

By the way, how is it relevant to the question at hand? We are talking about our community's condition, and you seem to connect it to the histories of nations we live in. Please explain, how these are inter connected.

Even though we are all grouped here as Tamil Brahmins, the local conditions are totally different from place to place within India and also from country to country elsewhere. What is good for a person living in USA may not be good for a person living in India. Both are different countries and also different societies. India's approach to Mumbai terrorist attack is totally different from American approach to Sep 11 attack in New York. The word `ICM' is allergic to majority of our community members in India but it is not the case for who those migrated to western countries few decades back. When we compare the above, I am forced to compare the nations also.

Finally, I did not 'brush aside' the input from those who participated in your swayamvarams. Because you advertised that you had an astrologer at hand, you have pre selected those who have attended these swayamvarams to the more conservatives of our clan. This sample, can not then represent the broadest section of our community. That is what I meant, without any negativity.

Again you have already made your own conclusions about the participants of the swayamvaram functions that they are all very conservatives, not broad minded etc. Definitely we are not pre-selecting any body before inviting to the swayamvaram function. Definitely our function is not astrologer centric and if you have any pre conceived notions, I cannot help it.

Regards,
KRS

All the best
 
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Dear Shri KRS, Greetings!

1. What are we 'preserving' by continuing our lineage? Is it 'culture' and if so what it is? And why should that be preserved?
I have been asking this question from my early days in this forum. No convincing answers have been presented. I wonder whether you will be any more lucky finding an answer than I have been.

On the other hand, if there are aspects of our culture that are uniquely TB and worth preserving, and if due to declining numbers they are in danger of dying out, then, the best way to not let them die out is to vigorously promote icm for TB girls, so that as mothers they can then raise their children teaching them these indispensable aspects of the culture.

I do not think also that a poll taken out of the participants of the 'swayamvaram' is necessarily going to reflect the broad sentiments of our community. But, I do think that the IC marriages are looked upon in our broad community today as 'one off' affairs, to be looked upon as the least wanted ones. How they are handled is from the individual family's perspective.
You may be right, icms are probably still looked upon as an anomaly. But attitudes are changing if the survey in Thriuvanandapuram is any indication. In a survey of people attending Swayamvaram restricted only to Brahmins one would expect 100% opposition to icm. It is like an opinion poll on GWB in a Moveon.org convention. Apparently, that was not the case in the survey, the opposition was overwhelming, but not unanimous, and I think that is significant and worth noting.

Further, survey questions can be designed anyway we want to support any predetermined outcome. We have semester long courses on this subject teaching how to make sure all biases are removed and internal consistency is built in.

If anyone is serious about reliably gauging where the TB community is on this question, we need to carefully design the questionnaire, administer the survey using cluster sampling technique so that all sections of the TB community, young and old, male/female, all levels of education and occupation, all sub-sects, etc., are represented. Then, the data must be carefully analyzed and estimates of sampling error must be presented. Just reporting a point estimate like for example 80% or 85% are against icm has no meaning.

In the absence of any of this, no conclusion can be drawn about the entire TB community. The best one can do is to say that TBs of Thiruvandandapuram who are looking for a varan in a swayamvaram exclusively for Brahmins, are overwhelmingly against icm.

Cheers!
 
hi RVR sir,
i can smell the SAME SENIOR/VETERAN OLD IDIOTS are talking the same " ICM " / caste maniac....within the same circle for last more than

100 threads discussion....NEVER CHANGE....KAZHUTHAIKKU THERIUMA KARPOORA VAASANAI.....

thanks RVR sir,

regards
tbs
 
hi RVR sir,
i can smell the SAME SENIOR/VETERAN OLD IDIOTS are talking the same " ICM " / caste maniac....within the same circle for last more than

100 threads discussion....NEVER CHANGE....KAZHUTHAIKKU THERIUMA KARPOORA VAASANAI.....

thanks RVR sir,

regards
tbs
tb

tbs, perhaps you can do better than call other members in this forum 'idiots' to suit your own mood of the day. maybe the word decorum should be redefined to suit new behaviour modes?

btw the last quote 'KAZHUTHAIKKU THERIUMA KARPOORA VAASANAI' might be applicable to you more than to the 'idiots' . please ponder over that. after all i think time is on the side of the kazhuthais, is it not?.

come up with logic, and solid arguements mate. name calling the last resort of someone who has run out of ideas. thank you.
 
sri RVR sir,
bravo
what brahmin are? here are some name in support of your answer.
Sachin Tendulkar, Rahul Dravid, V. Ananad, C.V. Raman, R. Tagore, S. Chandrashekhar, V. ramakrishnan,Rakesh Sharma(first cosmonaut), Daya Nayak, Mohanchand Sharma, V.S. Naipaul, S. Ramanujan, Lata Mangeshkar, Indira Gandhi, Maj. Somanath Sharma(pvc), Lt. Manojkumar Pandey (pvc) and a lot more.
Brahmins are Brahmins are Brahmins because they are Brahmin and will remain so!!!
 
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Nara mama I first want to say that I have huge respect for you and I hope I'm not coming across as intolerant with my views.

I think its a sad day indeed when people have to give reasons and justify for just wanting to be. I can't quote animals which are declining in population and how much is spent on their preservation so they don't become extinct because it doesn't apply to TBs as we're all the same species. So whatever reason(s) given will never be convincing enough because the reasons are emotive rather than logical.

I think all people have a right to want to exist and be around without having to justify why they should. TBs are probably no more unique than the next person but if they want to preserve their culture/heritage/caste, I don't see why we should be losing sleep over that. Nobody is holding a gun to our head and insisting that everyone should follow their way.

I've possibly missed the entire point of this thread but this is how it looked to me just now. That we have to justify ourselves for just wanting to exist, however inane it is.
 
Nara mama I first want to say that I have huge respect for you...
Dear Amala, Have you seen some of the posts that get made here with reckless abandon? You make such gentle and wise comments, you have nothing to be concerned that your views may seem intolerant.

As for respect, I appreciate it, and please note I also have immense respect for the really thoughtful posts from you. If we are having reasonable exchanges without resorting to name calling -- which you have never done and I know you will never do -- we must be free to express whatever opinion for which we can present at least a half-way decent and coherent argument.

I think all people have a right to want to exist (emphasis by Nara) and be around without having to justify why they should. TBs are probably no more unique than the next person but if they want to preserve their culture/heritage/caste, I don't see why we should be losing sleep over that.
The question is about the desirability of encouraging and even providing incentives to young Brahmin couples to have more children as a response to perceived decline in TB population. The premise that TB population is declining is just a hunch, I doubt it is true. Even if it is true, I think it a very bad idea to increase the numbers by having more children. IMO, icm is a better idea. Another possibility is for each TB family to adopt a NB orphan and raise them as TB. Please read my comments in this context.

I don't know what you mean the highlighted phrase above, but I hope you are not thinking of what I fear you may be thinking. Whatever my personal opinion about caste may be -- which is caste is an evil system and if we can find a way to get rid of it, that would be super -- I will never advocate forcible interference in the personal lives of people.

When it comes to a public forum like this one, I think you will be among the first to defend my right to present arguments about issues that I care deeply and try to persuade people in an intellectual way. Whether my arguments make any sense or impact is up to each individual. My hope is, for each vocal poster calling me an assortment of names and promoting the preservation of caste identity, which is on the milder side, to outright hostility towards anything NB, there are many passive readers, like Ms. Valli who appreciate the progressive views we express.

Hope this explains Amala ...

p.s. Ms. Valli -- I appreciate your comment, it gives me enormous strength to keep fighting the good fight even when we face a torrent of opposition.
 
Dear Sri RVR Ji,

Finally I got an answer that points out to the reason why our community should be preserved: That the brahmins are supposed to be selfless, live to uplift the society and promote the noble ideas such as non-violence, Truthfulness etc. Yes, I also get from Swami Vivekananda that the ideal Hindu man is a brahmin. But then, this where the rub is. A lot of caste brahmins I know today do not practice the above. I have already mentioned that the cultivation and practice to put a man to do all the above are outlined through the four ways, even though our community had over time evolved in to following the rituals as laid down in the Karma Khanda of the Vedas. And I dare say, that this purva mimamsa practice, which is what in my opinion is viewed as 'Brahminism', brings no value or least value to the society as the whole varna chain is broken in to pieces that can not be put together. The 'ideal' brahmin does not exist anymore. Instead we now have to pat our backs for contributions to the society in a limited ways, in a secular setting, be it getting nobel prize, or contributions to the secular arts. In other words, while the brahmins of yesteryear earned the respect of the society for living selflessly and solely for the uplift of the society in all spheres, that is not the case today.

This is why you look at your forefathers' leaving the legacy of taking care of the village by a Trust comes in. By the way, we have the same deal in our village. Our role had become secular, nothing to do whether we are 'brahmins' or not. This, while noble, in my opinion has nothing special attached to it - our community like everyone else work, make money and contribute to the society anyway we can. While we do have some cultural aspects of our tribe that are worth preserving (our habits, reverence for education etc.), again, these are very generic. This is why, I believe that our community over time will become diffused, starting with those of us living abroad and then in India.

I usually do not comment on ICMs. Mainly because, marriages are personal choice nowadays and any broad statements like one should marry / not marry from this clan or the other, while may serve as a guide post or caution, do not in my opinion has value. It is at each family level and in the long run, these ICMs do not really matter anyway.

The reason I commented here, because Sri Kunjuppu Ji cited me and comments were made.

Now to the other two points. Again, respectfully, I still do not understand any connection between the countries we live in and our community fellowship. When sri Kunjuppu says that ICM is one way to increase our clan, he is correct. When you say that that can not be applied to the local conditions in India, you may be correct. But, I do not see, where 'all the western living' barhmins are saying the same things! I would go even so far as to say that members of our community living in the west generally have a better understanding of what is going on in our community in India than our brothers like you who understand what is going on in the 'west'.

Your third point about the poll. I was careful not to say 'not broad minded' about our folks attending the swayamvarams and that is exactly why I said 'without negativity' in my posting. My implication was about the poll (well amplified by Professor Nara Ji) and not to criticize, oppose or belittle any folks.

This is why I have consistently opposed any idea of some folks here thinking that orthodoxy and conservatism should go away from our community. Everyone has the right to go for any alliance they want and I do not look down on anyone who want only brahmin alliances.

Regards,
KRS
 
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Dear RVR Sir,

RVR's response to @KRS in blue
Again you have already made your own conclusions about the participants of the swayamvaram functions that they are all very conservatives, not broad minded etc. Definitely we are not pre-selecting any body before inviting to the swayamvaram function. Definitely our function is not astrologer centric and if you have any pre conceived notions, I cannot help it.

If the public opinion (polls) do not fit the narrative, the next thing is to find fault in the process to claim invalidity.

"It is a standard practice to 'shoot the messenger' if the message is not conducive."

You are all doing a great service to the community by organizing "swayamvaram functions". I wish good luck in future efforts.

thanks,
 
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i cannot but help feeling the sense of insecurity among many here who seemed to get upset by the very word intercaste.

the very thread was started by me, more out of nostalgia, on perusing certain old family group photos. within two generations we can hardly ten cousins together for any function, not only due to distances but also to dearth of numbers.

i do not wish to say it is good or bad. it just is. why should saying 'just is' provoke so much anger? or self justification? i don't know.

the next point: a community can grow by shrinking. also in order to be considered a 'community' it needs a critical number of men, women and children, congregated together in one geographical area. i may be of tambram heritage, but my children are not. and that is one family out of the count.

the chettiars have the equivalent called puLLi. the family trees of nagarathars are maintained in books in the various villages. you qualify a separate entry ie puLLi, only when you marry another chettiar and start a chettiar family. otherwise you are banished. and your lineage ends there as far as chettiars are concerned.

now it might be news to know, that chettiars too are a declining community. scores of chettiars, who incidentally are numerically even less than tambrams, are marrying outside, in singapore, canada elsewhere. our p.chidambaram's son karthik is married to a tambram girl and so would not qualify to puLLi.

if we decline beyond a critical number, we might as well guestimate as to what are the losses - would many temples be without priests. no. thanks to the priest training system, eventually our tamil hindu priests will be qualified and become one due to vocation and erudition and not due to accident of birth.

what else? would tamil literature suffer? cinema suffer? industry suffer? what is it that currently we are so unique, that tomorrow if you erase every tambram in tamil nadu from the face of this earth, that there will be some noticeable consequence? i don't know.

what i do know, is that whatever happens, it is a chain of events, that cannot be turned back. small families, migration to the cities and then abroad, education, loosening of ritualistic lives for various reasons, a willingness to abandon the aloofness and a desire to integrate with the socieity (tamil or desi or angrezi or otherwise) and now intercaste marriages - all play role; not one by itself but a combination or keychain effect of many of them - based on current trend will result in few tambrams in tamil nadu.

i suggested two ways towards a critical mass membership - have larger families starting right now (the effect will come only 25 years later) and there was almost unanimous feeling that this will not fly.

another suggestion, was marry other tamils and bring them to what we think is our brahmin way of living (for most of us it is only veggie food & srarthams) as those days of poojai and punaskaram are as rare as the blue moon. i don' think this suggestion needs the violent anti reaction it deserves. it is atleast a feasible solution.

do we care? i don't know because many of us who went abroad, long ago did so willingly and over the years shred without any inhibition one by one or collectively at one time, many of our 'brahminic' values with various levels of eagerness. that is the truth.

should those of the tambrams still in tamil nadu feel besieged. if i had the attitude of some of those here, i would be too. but then, i always felt that unless one is in harmony with the society he or she lives and adjusts to its mores, one is doomed to frustration and unhappiness. i see a lot of frustration and unhappiness.

i wish these folks well, only because they are to me still, kins in blood, but i suggest that the sooner they wake up to the reality of today's tamil nadu and india, and attune their attitudes to be in sync with the general flow, they would only experience more alienation and above all a feeling that they are increasingly strangers and outcastes in their own country - something that manu and their ancestor consigned to the 25 per cent of the population called dalits, eons ago. the wheel has turned a full circle.

thank you.

ps.. thirisangu sorgam is closer to naragam than otherwise believed. :)
 
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Dear Kunjuppu Sir,
You used to say all members in this forum are honorable with differing opinion. I'm also holding the members in such high esteem and writing this to you.

i wish these folks well, only because they are to me still, kins in blood, but i suggest that the sooner they wake up to the reality of today's tamil nadu and india, and attune their attitudes to be in sync with the general flow, they would only experience more alienation and above all a feeling that they are increasingly strangers and outcastes in their own country - something that manu and their ancestor consigned to the 25 per cent of the population called dalits, eons ago. the wheel has turned a full circle.

Wherever we may live, i assume we come to this forum 'tamilbrahmins.com' on a regular basis because there is a TB in us or we want to see the TB's do good in life. To realize this dream we need to know what are the real problems they face.

Having said that, I think TB's living in TN, Kerala, Bangalore or Delhi will know what the challenges are much better than we living abroad.
If we think this forum does not present a balanced opinion or good representation of such people, we should structure our discussions or add features to enlist more people. This repeated discussion on Manu, orthodoxy, castist, ICM in almost every thread is very tiring and counter-productive and drives many out, IMO.
For a change i would like to see 'How to market the next 'swayamvaram function' to greater audience or what values we TB should uphold in the changing world.

We living abroad depend on second source (newspaper, books, blogs etc) to understand the real issues. So we may not the right context always.

IMO, The sustainable model for progress is "New Ideas/Solutions come from Inside and we support from Outside". and not the other way around.

I'm writing this to you not because i found fault in your post(s), Its just that i though you may find the 'Good Intent' in my posting.

thanks,
 
Dear Sri KRS Ji,

You have put it so very beautifully. A marriage indeed is a personal choice.

People cannot marry inter-caste for the sake of social integration and other such extraneous social factors. This applies to both sorts of unions,
a) between a southie-brahmin and a northie-brahmin, and
b) between a brahmin and a non-brahmin.

We also increasingly see that people no longer remain in a marriage for the sake of caste.

Marriage in any form (whether same-caste or inter-caste), cannot be part of anyone's desire to promote integration with non-brahmins, or promote pan-brahmanism, or be linked with social issues or causes of any manner in any manner.

It is a very personal choice limited to 2 individuals and their respective families.

Regards.
 
Dear Kunjuppu Sir,
You used to say all members in this forum are honorable with differing opinion. I'm also holding the members in such high esteem and writing this to you.

Wherever we may live, i assume we come to this forum 'tamilbrahmins.com' on a regular basis because there is a TB in us or we want to see the TB's do good in life. To realize this dream we need to know what are the real problems they face.

Having said that, I think TB's living in TN, Kerala, Bangalore or Delhi will know what the challenges are much better than we living abroad.
If we think this forum does not present a balanced opinion or good representation of such people, we should structure our discussions or add features to enlist more people. This repeated discussion on Manu, orthodoxy, castist, ICM in almost every thread is very tiring and counter-productive and drives many out, IMO.
For a change i would like to see 'How to market the next 'swayamvaram function' to greater audience or what values we TB should uphold in the changing world.

We living abroad depend on second source (newspaper, books, blogs etc) to understand the real issues. So we may not the right context always.

IMO, The sustainable model for progress is "New Ideas/Solutions come from Inside and we support from Outside". and not the other way around.

I'm writing this to you not because i found fault in your post(s), Its just that i though you may find the 'Good Intent' in my posting.

thanks,

sures, i do not know where you are outside of india. this is a free forum and i think you or i are allowed to say what we want within limits. otherwise praveen will throw us out.

re tambram's challenges, if you want to talk about them, please feel free. or ask your friends or relatives in india to write here. i hope i am not stopping you. i am yet to hear from you on that, and if the post interest me, i would consider it an honour to reply. but many posts here are of a nature, and which i do not either know what to say or would not like to say it. so i prefer to pass them on.

you have quoted selectively from a detailed post about why i started this thread. if at the end of it, my summary is something that you want to challenge, please go ahead. what did you think of the tracing of the cause and the resultant effect? i think i did it pretty well ")

i dont agree with you as to what should be structured, balanced, representation of such people etc. again, i repeat, people are more than welcome to skip whatever i write. if you and some others have told me that i should not write on certain topics, my reply to you, is avoid reading what i write. i think that my posts are within the decorums of this forum. otherwise i would have been told.

i write for my own pleasure primarily. if somebody likes it good. if not, equally good. if they get abusive, praveen will take care of them. otherwise it shows weakness of arguement or lack of culture. i prefer civilized dialogues on topics which i feel are to my liking or dear to me. why should you have any objection to this? pray who are you to advise me of this?

let me give you my answer to your swayamvaram question: if you have not read RVR, he has clearly stated that the ratio of girls to boys is 1:3. it has been consistent. the situation appears to be the same everywhere. are you asking someone to find hidden girls? suggestions were to either find girls outside of castes or state. outside of caste has been vetoed. outside of state appears to be viable but then marriage is a private affair between two entities - whether it be boy/girl or two families. all the best to them.

again, i do not have anything to say about values of tambrams. to me, it appears we have evolved and adjusted to the fast changing society, alteast by and large. i am the last person in the world to preach values. i think these are personal and as long one is honest, truthful, hardworking and above all has an inclination to treat every human as equal, he or she should be ok in my set of values.

i live abroad and i can write what i want, in the way i see it. you have the same right as i do. sures, i don't understand what is your problem here in deferring to resident tambrams re issues. the issues of one family is different from another, and the more enterprising ones go ahead and fight and resolve their issues. i think you are trying to say something of the effect that it is none of my business to comment on many topics that i do. i do beg your pardon to disagree.

btw did you see at the top of the page the mission statement of this forum 'brahmin community spread across the entire globe' - does that not tell you something? thank you.
 
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Dear Sri suresoo Ji,
It is quite okay for you to attack my responses directly. If you have logic, I will defend myself.

But this type of using another's response to my posting and making nonsensical comments on my posting is, in my opinion not straight up.

By the way, did you read my comments properly? Your posting seems to me like you are building on further castles on top of what Sri RVR Ji has already done. It is to just run away with imagined words and build cases against those. I do not think you are presenting a good case for yourself.

Regards,
KRS
Dear RVR Sir,

RVR's response to @KRS in blue


If the public opinion (polls) do not fit the narrative, the next thing is to find fault in the process to claim invalidity.

"It is a standard practice to 'shoot the messenger' if the message is not conducive."

You are all doing a great service to the community by organizing "swayamvaram functions". I wish good luck in future efforts.

thanks,
 
Thank you Srimathi HH Ji,
I agree with your words 100%.
Regards,
KRS
Dear Sri KRS Ji,

You have put it so very beautifully. A marriage indeed is a personal choice.

People cannot marry inter-caste for the sake of social integration and other such extraneous social factors. This applies to both sorts of unions,
a) between a southie-brahmin and a northie-brahmin, and
b) between a brahmin and a non-brahmin.

We also increasingly see that people no longer remain in a marriage for the sake of caste.

Marriage in any form (whether same-caste or inter-caste), cannot be part of anyone's desire to promote integration with non-brahmins, or promote pan-brahmanism, or be linked with social issues or causes of any manner in any manner.

It is a very personal choice limited to 2 individuals and their respective families.

Regards.
 
Dear Professor Nara Ji,

You said:
I have been asking this question from my early days in this forum. No convincing answers have been presented. I wonder whether you will be any more lucky finding an answer than I have been

These are the sort of questions that make some of our brothers to think that we are anti Brahmins. Hopefully, some of them will understand ultimately that these are valid questions and by trying to answer, our community, in my opinion can contribute immensely to the mankind.

Regards,
KRS
 
Dear Kunjuppu Ji,

I think it is really a difficult situation for the tambram boys today. I totally forgot about the ration of boys to girl ratio while making the post above. But some say there are sufficient girls, just that these girls are not willing to marry guys placed in ordinary jobs.

Anyways, its the guy who has to make the choice...if he wants a northie-brahmin girl, he can go for it..And if he wants a non-brahmin southie he can go for it...the choice belongs to the guy...hopefully he will inform himself well about both the choices, and meet the girl a few times, before taking the plunge..
 
Dear Sri KRS ji,

My views are in blue.

Dear Sri RVR Ji,

Finally I got an answer that points out to the reason why our community should be preserved: That the brahmins are supposed to be selfless, live to uplift the society and promote the noble ideas such as non-violence, Truthfulness etc. Yes, I also get from Swami Vivekananda that the ideal Hindu man is a brahmin. But then, this where the rub is. A lot of caste brahmins I know today do not practice the above. I have already mentioned that the cultivation and practice to put a man to do all the above are outlined through the four ways, even though our community had over time evolved in to following the rituals as laid down in the Karma Khanda of the Vedas. And I dare say, that this purva mimamsa practice, which is what in my opinion is viewed as 'Brahminism', brings no value or least value to the society as the whole varna chain is broken in to pieces that can not be put together. The 'ideal' brahmin does not exist anymore. Instead we now have to pat our backs for contributions to the society in a limited ways, in a secular setting, be it getting nobel prize, or contributions to the secular arts. In other words, while the brahmins of yesteryear earned the respect of the society for living selflessly and solely for the uplift of the society in all spheres, that is not the case today.

Thanks for you above comments. Most of the brahmins particularly from fairly well to do sections continue to do social service. May be they are not seeking publicity. Even poor people are coming forward to do voluntary service without expecting anything. During their prime employment period, they are unable to spend their time for such social work but they contribute monetarily. But post retirement they are actively spending their time for social work not only to our community but to the society as a whole which probably most of the eminent members here are not aware of. Some people mastering vedhas, upanishads, slokas etc and again they are not expecting any money for their performance.They voluntarity come to various functions and perform excelently which all of us should appreciate

This is why you look at your forefathers' leaving the legacy of taking care of the village by a Trust comes in. By the way, we have the same deal in our village. Our role had become secular, nothing to do whether we are 'brahmins' or not. This, while noble, in my opinion has nothing special attached to it - our community like everyone else work, make money and contribute to the society anyway we can. While we do have some cultural aspects of our tribe that are worth preserving (our habits, reverence for education etc.), again, these are very generic. This is why, I believe that our community over time will become diffused, starting with those of us living abroad and then in India.

I have to defer with you a little bit on this. Only our community members took the lead and initiated the work in my native village which other communities are fully co-operating. Our community has to take the lead role and initiate wherever possible in such works. It is not to get some special status in the society but to act as a catalyst in the whole process. Once we act as catalyst or focal point, other communities also contribute to the work with more sincerity forgetting their local differences.

I usually do not comment on ICMs. Mainly because, marriages are personal choice nowadays and any broad statements like one should marry / not marry from this clan or the other, while may serve as a guide post or caution, do not in my opinion has value. It is at each family level and in the long run, these ICMs do not really matter anyway.

Again thanks for putting the issue in a better perspective. Personally I have not supported or opposed ICM in this forum. I have also quoted previously from the Brahmin Nayanmars -Sundarar, Sambandar life histories where inter caste marriages were very much prevalent during 7th to 9th Century AD and Lord Shiva himself has blessed such marriages. But during subsequent periods things have changed and nobody knows why it got changed.

But one thing we have to appreciate that arranged marriages have worked very well in the past and also working fine even now. Failure rates are negligible. Most of these arranged marriages have taken place within the concerned caste itself whether it is in brahmin or in some other communities.

In an arranged marriage it is not just integration of a boy and a girl but it is much more than that. Both the immediate families gets integrated. Close relatives of both the families are getting integrated. I have seen in my village and neighbouring villages when such marriage takes places between a boy and a girl from two independent villages, both the villages gets integrated . In such an environment, both the boy and girl are made to keep the integration alive as their stakes have become very high in the society. There are elders on both side to intervene and correct even if some difference crops up at a later stage. This practice has been working beautifully till date.

I am just recollecting an incident in New York way back in 1994. My brother and me were waiting in the `Q' to board the boat to visit Statue of Liberty. We noticed a boy and a girl publicly kissing each other in the same Q . I was just wondering, `if they like each other so much, why so many divorces are taking place in the American society'. I asked my brother who visits USA almost every year but he didn't had any answer.

After returning to India, I saw few dogs in my street making intercourse publicly. The next day I saw the same dogs fighting each other bitterly in the same street. I earnestly felt that we human beings should not adopt the dog mentality and value the marriage as a `sacred' event respecting our culture, traditions and values.

Personally I don't want to interfere in the system which is working fine for generations. If the Tamil Brahmin community wants to go for inter caste marriage let them do so. If they want to go for Inter Brahmin marriage, let them do so. We are just playing a facilitators role in the Swayamvaram functions and it is up to the individuals to take decisions in the best interest of their children and family.


The reason I commented here, because Sri Kunjuppu Ji cited me and comments were made.

Now to the other two points. Again, respectfully, I still do not understand any connection between the countries we live in and our community fellowship. When sri Kunjuppu says that ICM is one way to increase our clan, he is correct. When you say that that can not be applied to the local conditions in India, you may be correct. But, I do not see, where 'all the western living' barhmins are saying the same things! I would go even so far as to say that members of our community living in the west generally have a better understanding of what is going on in our community in India than our brothers like you who understand what is going on in the 'west'.*

Again I stress here that I don't have any personal preferences. In the swayamvaram functions, we are just playing the role of facilitators only. I want to further stress here that organisers of swayamvaram functions or the `tamilbrahmins.com' doesn't have any role in individual alliances and such alliances are made absolutely at the discretion of the individuals concerned.

But I got feed back from some of the participants that they don't like some of the writings here on inter caste marriages particularly by members living in Western countries. The same message was also expressed by local Kerala Brahmana Sabha and Tambrss members belonging to Kanyakumari, Tirunelveli and Tuticorin belt. Just like telling our friends here to restrain from such writings repeatedly here, I have also told the other side that it is just suggestions from our western counterparts and please don't take all these things to your heart.

To tell you frankly my position has become a `Thirisangu Swargam' after seeing both extremes. But I am very much sure that our community in Inida is not at the `Thirisangu Swargam' stage and definitely they have better clarity and understanding of the situation. The same people who were holding sub-caste mentality in their minds some time back are changing to Inter Brahmin Marriage proposals.


Your third point about the poll. I was careful not to say 'not broad minded' about our folks attending the swayamvarams and that is exactly why I said 'without negativity' in my posting. My implication was about the poll (well amplified by Professor Nara Ji) and not to criticize, oppose or belittle any folks.

Frankly none of the organisers are experts in conducting such polls. However before venturing in to such a survey, we consulted office bearers of local Brahmin associations of both Kerala and Southern Tamilnadu. The questionnaire was carefully prepared taking most of their sentiments into account.
We cannot hire the services of a professional market research agency as it may cost anywhere between 4 to 5 lakh Rs for this activity alone. However I request all our honourable members not to under estimate the calibre of the participants and they know very well what they want.

This is why I have consistently opposed any idea of some folks here thinking that orthodoxy and conservatism should go away from our community. Everyone has the right to go for any alliance they want and I do not look down on anyone who want only brahmin alliances.

Thanks for your above statement and I am also having similar sentiments only. I wish all our honourable members here to follow the same priniciple.

All the best
 
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Sri KRS ji said,

These are the sort of questions that make some of our brothers to think that we are anti Brahmins.


Definitely I am not terming you as anti-brahmin. When both of us are discussing certain issues affecting our community, we cannot prevent our esteemed colleagues coming in between with their views. However I am giving importance only to your views and hereinafter I shall discuss only with you in this thread ignoring all comments made by our esteemed colleagues.

I would also request you to keep my above sentiments in mind. Any passing comment just like the above are likely to hurt my feelings also as I never thought either in the past or now that you are `anit-brahmin'

All the best
 
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It is quite okay for you to attack my responses directly. If you have logic, I will defend myself.

But this type of using another's response to my posting and making nonsensical comments on my posting is, in my opinion not straight up.

By the way, did you read my comments properly? Your posting seems to me like you are building on further castles on top of what Sri RVR Ji has already done. It is to just run away with imagined words and build cases against those. I do not think you are presenting a good case for yourself.

The main intent of my response is to appreciate the efforts of @RVR and fellow volunteers in organising the 'swayamvaram functions'. Hence i responded to his observations and attempted to put the critiques in perspective.

@RVR had attempted to get the opinions/sentiments of common Man in an Organized function. I think that is the better way to learn the challenges faced by the community. I do not see that as an
castles building exercise.

If i felt the need to attack your views, i would have addressed it to you, Now i'm starting to understand the meaning of Americans saying "Civilian Casualty are unintended consequence Of war".


Hope you understand,
 
Dear Kunjuppu Ji,

I think it is really a difficult situation for the tambram boys today. I totally forgot about the ration of boys to girl ratio while making the post above. But some say there are sufficient girls, just that these girls are not willing to marry guys placed in ordinary jobs.

Anyways, its the guy who has to make the choice...if he wants a northie-brahmin girl, he can go for it..And if he wants a non-brahmin southie he can go for it...the choice belongs to the guy...hopefully he will inform himself well about both the choices, and meet the girl a few times, before taking the plunge..

happy, i do not want to put on airs... but repeat, the pool is much smaller. it does not matter even if there are equal numbers of boys to girls.

i repeat, when you go to the market, to buy 1kg of brinjal, would you not go to the vendor with the largest heap, so that you can pick better grade of brinjals. ultimately you want the best for your kitchen.

it is not a good analogy, i agree. but if a boy wants to marry a girl, and there is only one to chose from vs probably 50 for his father, and 500 for his grandfather, you can imagine his predicament.

nobody is promoting ic marriages here.all i am saying, is that over 60 years with smaller families, we have reduced the choices and i don't know, maybe girls are not happy with the options they have. i have not heard complaints from girls' parents here. either they are not present here or are keeping quiet.

the swayamvaram, bless the efforts of the organizers, feedback was the overwhelming presence of boys. everything being equal, RVR felt that there are more boys and dearth of girls, though he felt it was temporary. i will bow before that judgement, though my gut feeling says, that it is likely to continue.

the current generation is having even less offsprings and marrying late. how can we constantly produce more marriageable folks to suit our caste subcaste preferences if we do not have a critical pool to chose from.
 
...This is why I have consistently opposed any idea of some folks here thinking that orthodoxy and conservatism should go away from our community. Everyone has the right to go for any alliance they want and I do not look down on anyone who want only brahmin alliances.

Thanks for your above statement and I am also having similar sentiments only. I wish all our honourable members here to follow the same priniciple.

All the best

dear venkat,

a couple of points, if i may.

if members wish others not to comment, they can skip reading the posts. i think that is the best way to make a statement. i read only certain threads and even within it only certain posters.

this is an open forum, and it is not only those abroad, but also within india, who come together on certain issues and differ on others.

what bothers me, is that certain issues like ic marriages, appear to be defining friendships. i had one member pm me, and whom i hold in high esteem, tell me that the person would sever relationship with me because of my views on ic marriages. even though we may agree on many other areas of mutual concerns.

i feel sad about such reactions, for even within a family, members disagree often stressfully. i do not certainly wish the source of disagreement on one thread, to be carried over to another thread, or to define friendship or banish one. people can be good friends, even though they may disagree.

it is in this context, i feel that those who are sensitized by some postings on ic marriages, give these posts its rightful due from their viewpoint - ie ignore it. to do it otherwise would be akin, i think, to irrritate a festering sore, with a septic pin. but let us not shut out views because someone does not like it.

hope this sounds fair, even though it may not be to many people's liking. thank you.
 
Dear Kunjuppu Ji,

I agree 100 percent with what you say. Personally i too feel that a tambram has more in common with a southie than a northie. And as you rightly say, considering that the current breed is reproducing late and insufficiently, the prob of finding tambram brides is not going to go away in the future. Lets hope the guys lower their expectations and just go ahead and marry. But how and who is the big question...perhaps everything is destained in heaven...

I thot females always got less merely for being a female. But now suddenly i am thanking god that there are good enough reasons to be a female in this world :) ( this situation of not finding brides is getting common across other communities too..)..
 
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