Divorced girl to which Gothra she belong

[renuka]

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IMO. if gothra is changed to that of the new father, the sense of bondage, affection and emotional security would be strengthened between the children and children's new father.

Human's sense of family relationship and values makes true sense only if there exists the sense of "We all are same as a family, linked/bonded to each other, till death keeps us apart".

If such a family decides to not to utter gothra during any prayers, traditional ceremonies, rites etc, than there is no need to think and conclude as what Gothra should they belong to?

Ex Husband off course will always have visiting rights for his children even though the ex wife has remarried. But, IMO, the ex husband should help his children build strong emotional bondage with their new father rather just giving the sense of costodian status of the new father. This sense of custodian status of the new father would by default instill children with the idea of - "The new man of our mother is her's, not ours" / "A father is a father and a custodian is a custodian".

If children are too young, the above would be the right move. If children are grown up adults, than they "know" as what to consider and how to behave.

The above opinions of mine are considering Indian-Hindu family system/values alone, who all wants some tradition to fallow and the Gothra to be associated with.

Dear Ravi,

Do we really need to apply all rules of Gothra change when first and foremost Divorce is not in Sanathana Dharma.
So when people these days have chosen the Civil Law over Sanathana Dharma why do we need to fit in gothra change.
We should either stick to Sanathana Dharma or Civil Law and not amalgamate it cos the DNA of the children dont change with remarriage of a divorced mum.

 

[sangom]

dear ravi,

once again, let me explain. i was not at all talking about you. i respect what you believe, as i respect everyone each their own and they have good reasons.

my note was more rhetorical, in the context of the tambram community, and our insistence generally, re the faith in unbroken lineage.

it is quite possible that most of us have broken lineages, and judging from the DNA mixed blood of other races, but we can believe what we want re gothram, because it 'faith based' and need not be supported by scientific proof or disproof.

i just want to make this clear first. so no hard feelings. english is such a strange language. easy to be misunderstood.

i agree with your logic of single family unit, single gothram.

taking it a step further, if the said child whose gothram was changed at mommy's second marriage, wishes to believe in the purity of gothram, lineage and what not, would he be allowed to switch to the original gothram of his biological daddy?

K,

There were lengthy and perhaps the usual heated exchanges over the Sraaddha mantras which ask Agni (Swadhaa) to take the offering of Havis to one's biological father even if the purported person was not. Viewed in this angle, I think our sages valued the DNA as more important than the legal or public image. What do you think?

 

[C RAVI]

Dear Ravi,

Do we really need to apply all rules of Gothra change when first and foremost Divorce is not in Sanathana Dharma.
So when people these days have chosen the Civil Law over Sanathana Dharma why do we need to fit in gothra change.
We should either stick to Sanathana Dharma or Civil Law and not amalgamate it cos the DNA of the children dont change with remarriage of a divorced mum.

Dear Renuka,

My post was only to answer if the question is to which gothra the children should belong to? To that of Biological Father or New/adopted father. Otherwise I would have not mentioned anything about the Gothra of such children, if such re married mothers and their husbands are not bothered.

 

[C RAVI]

dear ravi,

taking it a step further, if the said child whose gothram was changed at mommy's second marriage, wishes to believe in the purity of gothram, lineage and what not, would he be allowed to switch to the original gothram of his biological daddy?

Shri Kunjuppu,

First of all let me clarify you that, I didn't mistake your post at all. My notes as preamble to my post #24 was just to add what I feel personally about "Gothram", asociated in vedic terms.


AFA I know, there is no vedic procedure to switch over from one Gothram to another. Once the body is formed biologically with the DNA of Father and Mother and when Gotham is associated to the so called head of the family/male/husband, the Gothram would than ever be the one and the only one acquired from biological father. The formation of Human life out of biological father/mother is the visible truth and can never be altered.

So, it all depends on what such family decides for themselves, considering too younger kids. As I have stated in my posts, if the children are grown up adults, they would determine for themselves as what they need, especially in this present era. It all depends on the joint sentiments of the family or the sentiments of the each member of the family.

They may either choose to respect the vedic values and performing vedic prayers/rituals and continue to utter Gothram of their Biologocal father. Or they may give more priority to their mother's & new father's sentiment and utter Gothram of the new father/custodian.

Human feelings and emotions are often fragile. If children hate their ex father (knowing or not knowing the truth), they may adopt New Father's gothram, irrespective of vedic importance while performing rituals. And, if they Love their ex father (knowing or not knowing the truth), they may stick to the biological father's Gothram while performing vedic rituals.

In future if not these days, the uttering of Gothram would be rare while performing rarest vedic rituals and just as a matter of vedic formalities. During marriage proposals based on Gothram (if at all still followed), these children may change their mind to switch from their ex father's Gothram to that of their custodian's and vice versa, depending on their liking of a boy/girl :rockon:

IMO, the above are the realities of the practicle life, dosen't matter if we give importance to Gothram system of the vedic rules or not.

 

[Nara]

......taking it a step further, if the said child whose gothram was changed at mommy's second marriage, wishes to believe in the purity of gothram, lineage and what not, would he be allowed to switch to the original gothram of his biological daddy?

K, all this confusion is because of the nonsensical notion of gothram and lineage tracing back to the Vedic times. A child is deserving of our love because she/he is a child, no more.

K, I am sure, just as sure as my own existence, you know it. I know you won't say it in the stark terms that I do because you subscribe to the tactic of stooping to conquer.

I am in no mood to stoop.

We have already conquered K, no need to stoop. The pockets of reactionary resistance is confined to small groups, who better get on with the program or get left behind.

Cheers!

 

[N.R.Ranganathan]

There is a story in one of the upanishads about the gothram of a disciple
who came to a rishi for learning the atma vidya.

The rishi asked him - what is your name , your father's name and gothram ?
The young boy did not know since he had not seen his father at all and was
brought up by his mother. So he came back to the house and asked his mother
to tell him the name of his father and the gothram.

She said ; look son ! I was working as maid-servant in the houses of many
people and I really do not know to whom you were born. So please tell
the rishi the fact.

The boy returned to the rishi and told him the truth and added that his mother's
name is Jabali. The rishi named him Satyakama jabali and adopted him
and taught him the vedas. All because he spoke the truth - sathyam. The
boy later became a great rishi himself.

 

[prasad1]

Dear all,

Can anyone shed some light here..How does ones Gotra change after marriage..is it like how westerners adopt their husbands name after marriage..for example Hillary Clinton takes on name of Clinton after marriage to Bill Clinton or is this change of one's Gotra more complex than that?

Basically..can anyone really change in any aspect?
Our genes and DNA dont..so how does this Gotra change come about?

And what about those who have no Gotra..what about them?Me for example..I dont even know what my Gotra is dont even know if I have one? and neither does my husband know his Gotra(if he has one) so how do these rules apply for a person like me?

Would appreciate some feedback please..

Great post.
I have another post on the subject of Gothram.
In short I believe gothram, kulam, elc have served their purpose and now a burden for us.
In north India some families goes to their family pandith and he ascribes them a gothra. In ISKON every new convert gets a gothra assigned.
Gothra was given importance due to Panini classifying it, there is no vadic legitimacy.

In your case if you really want to find out you can go to family members of your husband and can figure it out. You might also pick one that suits your convenience.

There were originally 7 system of schools, propagated by 7 rishis of Septarisi. Now in India at least 49 Gothras are claimed in upper class and thousands more in other classes. In addition jatis, and kulum is wrongly quoted as gothram.
In Andhra temples if you do not know the pujari will assign you Siva, visnu, or Naga gothram.

 

[renuka]

Great post.
I have another post on the subject of Gothram.
In short I believe gothram, kulam, elc have served their purpose and now a burden for us.
In north India some families goes to their family pandith and he ascribes them a gothra. In ISKON every new convert gets a gothra assigned.
Gothra was given importance due to Panini classifying it, there is no vadic legitimacy.

In your case if you really want to find out you can go to family members of your husband and can figure it out. You might also pick one that suits your convenience.

There were originally 7 system of schools, propagated by 7 rishis of Septarisi. Now in India at least 49 Gothras are claimed in upper class and thousands more in other classes. In addition jatis, and kulum is wrongly quoted as gothram.
In Andhra temples if you do not know the pujari will assign you Siva, visnu, or Naga gothram.

No sir, It's Ok..I dont want to find out too cos even a Gotra is bodily indentification..so why add excess baggage when we eventually need to shed it.
For this birth I am Renuka..God knows what I was before in another birth and what will I be in my next.
For that I need to download all the stored data in the Chitta portion of the Antahkarana into my pen drive and read it..too tedious.

 

[prasad1]

No sir, It's Ok..I dont want to find out too cos even a Gotra is bodily indentification..so why add excess baggage when we eventually need to shed it.
For this birth I am Renuka..God knows what I was before in another birth and what will I be in my next.
For that I need to download all the stored data in the Chitta portion of the Antahkarana into my pen drive and read it..too tedious.

With your knowledge you surely must be at the end of your punerjanmas. You will attain it in this life or next. Wish you success in achieving your desire.

 

[sarang]

Nothing is a burden. They, who believe in gotras may continue their faith. For every belief there will be objections from some quarter.

It is not wise to link modern science with every practice and belief. If ghotra is perceived as lineage and kinship, there is no need to link it with dna or genetics. Like linking dasavatara to darwin's theory. Our sanatana dharma and science are two different streams; there is no need to make one dry to feed the other.

 

[ganukanchi]

Dear nacchinarkiniyan do you expect a pedal fallen from a flower gets back to same flower in nature. try to understand that all these are coined by our forefathers to ensure a good societal setup. do not try to damage it simply because you do not like it.

 

[kunjuppu]

Dear nacchinarkiniyan do you expect a pedal fallen from a flower gets back to same flower in nature. try to understand that all these are coined by our forefathers to ensure a good societal setup. do not try to damage it simply because you do not like it.

hi ganu,

dont you think we should use common sense on the basis of today's knowledge, to make decisions pertaining to our lives?

i do not quite understand your reference to a fallen petal trying to fit itself back to the flower. reminded me of nagesh's quote in a movie, about how one can get toothpaste out of the tube, but cannot put it back in. cute but irrelevant. i think.

our elders practised the defigurement of widows. young women, many not even consummated, on the death of the husband, had their
heads shaved, given white garments, shunned to a corner of the house, considered bad omen, and forced to spend their lives
in shame, isolation and at the mercy of relatives. was there a lot of wisdom in this?

my point, is that if you believe in shunning saha gothram marriage, it is upto you. but if you use your common sense, when you find,
there is no blood relationship identified, what is wrong in a marriage contracted between two people of the same gothram?

this opposed to marrying a mama or athai son or daughter, with 50% common genes?

i think, the smart thing, is to weigh every issue, with the knowledge of today, and not look up to traditions. because in many instances
traditions, have not only been abusive, to the times when they were introduced, but absolutely and morally, for all times.

this is where we separate, i think, smart thinking, from mooda nambikkai. it has nothing to do with 'likes' it has everything to do
what is right, and what makes sense.

upto you sir!!

 

[prasad1]

Post#37
I support K's case fully, Please read the thread 'Gothram as alumni' thread for further reading.
Coming back to original post she can cliam the gothram of her ex husband or revert back to her father's gothram. In our society you still need Gothram.

 

[ganukanchi]

Dear kunjuppu,
my common sense has only made me to arrive at this conclusion that what our forefathers has followed is correct.
because, if X head of a family, which follows our tradition and has no male but only females in their fold, on his death then that family had to look up to X's blood brother or blood brother's family to perform the last rites of X.
this is because X's blood brother or his son/sons forms the same lineage.
if X did not have blood brother then any of his `gothra pangali' mr.Y ie. having the same gothra to which X belongs can perform the last rites.
thus that person automatically becomes attains the status of a brother of the female children left behind by X.
if X's female child got married to mr.Y then how could a wife call her husband as brother, a relationship i still believe that even now bar them from becoming husband and wife because such acts only help us build social network.

 

[ganukanchi]

Dear prasad1
i do support your view that our society still need gothram and that a divorced woman could claim the gothram of her ex-husband.
at any cost she cannot revert back to her father's gothram because when marriages are solemnized, as per our tradition, the girls father says he hands over his daughter born in his gothram to the bridegroom's family and the bridgroom's father accepts her into his family by declaring that from that moment she belongs to his gothram.

 

[prasad1]

Dear prasad1
i do support your view that our society still need gothram and that a divorced woman could claim the gothram of her ex-husband.
at any cost she cannot revert back to her father's gothram because when marriages are solemnized, as per our tradition, the girls father says he hands over his daughter born in his gothram to the bridegroom's family and the bridgroom's father accepts her into his family by declaring that from that moment she belongs to his gothram.

The divorce was not sanctioned in our 'dharma'. So it is new situations and needs a new solution. If the ex-husband wants her not to use his name as her last name, it can be true for Gothram. I do not know the need for a Gothram for her. If it is for re-marriage then that complicates the problem even more.
My contention is that there is absolutely no connection between linage and Gothram. If there was one at some time that has been corrupted and has no value in the present day world.

 

[natpushpa]

Dear Prasad, Once got married the bride belongs to bridegrooms gothram. If divorced , she comes back to her fathers gothra, when she is considered for remarriage. This is my personal opinion. Kindly refer the following: “In the Hindu society, the term Gotra broadly refers to people who are descendants in an unbroken male line from a common male ancestor .” “ Thus, GOTRA became a genetic inheritance of health, stregth and knowledge. So,
seeing the fraternity among same Gotra, marriage between a pair
of same GOTRA was BANNED, perhaps for genetic reasons. Of course, all
religions prohibit marriage between brother and sister because
of same reasons, whether they knew about DNA or not. So even now,
Brahmin families follow the same rule of marrying from other Gotras.”
Marriage Comptibility around the Gotra Agreement.
"This lineage (gotra) of horary sages is based on two factors; birth and learning., i.e. from father to son; and teacher (mentor - preceptor) to disciple. the 28 stars (nakshatras) including Abhijit (which is placed in Capricorn between Uttarashadha and Shravan) have been distributed among the above sages at the rate of four asterism's per sage as follows:
(1) Marichi: Aswini, Pushya, Svati, Abhijit.
(2) Vasishta: Bharani, Ashlesha, Vishakha, Shravan.
(3) Angiras: Krittika, Magha, Anuradha, Dhanistha.
(4) Atri: Rohini, Purvaphalguni, Jyestha, Shatabhishakam.
(5) Pulastya: Mrgashirsha, Uttaraphalguni, Mula, Purva Bhadrapad.
(6) Pulaha: Ardra, Hasta, Purvashadha, Uttarabhadrapad.
(7) Kratu: Punarvasu, Chitra, Uttarashadha, Revati.
It is said that identical gotra of a boy and girl would lead to calamity. If they belong to different gotras, their union will lead to happiness, prosperity and progeny. This subject can be looked into from another angle. If the stars obtained from the longitudes of their respective lagnas belong to the same gotra or different ones, their effects would be in order moderate or excellent."(M. Ramakrishna Bhat. essentials of Horary Astrology, pages 141-142.) Natpushpa.

 

[prasad1]

Mr. Natpushpa,
There is a thread Gothram - alumni


There is no point in repeating it. Suffice to say that the POV your present is one of the views. We all particularly TB's have an opinion.

 

[sarang]

Do not bring genetics to explain gotra tradition. Like linking darwin's evolutuion theory to explain dasavatara. Dasavatara belief will remain eventhough darwin's theory is in tatters or going that way.

I believe bengalis with the same surnames do not marry (mukerji-mukerji) and koreans also avoid same surname marriage. There is no law against such marriages in India and korea, but similar customs prevail.

 

[sangom]

Why not we give birth to a new gotra by the name "Divorce Gotra" and put all the divorcees - male and female - in that Gotra? This will prevent divorcees again marrying another divorcee; it will also very effectively prevent the divorced ex-husband and ex-wife coming together again.

 

[prasad1]

Why not we give birth to a new gotra by the name "Divorce Gotra" and put all the divorcees - male and female - in that Gotra? This will prevent divorcees again marrying another divorcee; it will also very effectively prevent the divorced ex-husband and ex-wife coming together again.

Sir Sangom,
I did not expect that from You.
In normal circumstance it might be funny, but nobody's misfortune should be funny to others. I am sorry

 

[sangom]

Sir Sangom,
I did not expect that from You.
In normal circumstance it might be funny, but nobody's misfortune should be funny to others. I am sorry

Shri Prasad,

Divorce is not misfortune today; it is fortune. Two people who cannot get along as husband and wife are either allowed to break the contract of marriage by mutual consent or by judicial authority. And, I have not so far heard of any instance of the divorced pair reuniting. Almost all the divorced persons have married (prefer to marry) never married persons of the opposite sex; at least that seems to be the Indian trend so far. So, imho, I am not joking on some other's misfortune.

I had to react the way I did because the posters here seem to feel it is a very great matter of supreme importance. If the girl's gothram really changes to that of her husband's (i.e., she becomes a descendant of the rishis from whom the husband also descended, does she not become sagotra at that moment? So, at what point of time and by which artifice is the gotram changed?

Now, if the said girl is divorced how do we reinstate her into any gotra except by following the same artifice - another marriage? That means she is gotraless during the interrugnum; how can that be since every brahmin boy and every brahmin girl must belong to some gotra at all times? What will be the difference if the girl divorces her husband instead of he divorcing her?

It is after such intense introspection of various such points relating to this earth-shaking matter that I decided about a new "divorce" gotra. Again, it does not appear to me to be a joke based on somebody else's misfortunes or troubles.

BTW, don't you feel many of the common jokes are based on somebody's predicament, misfortune, etc?

 

[kunjuppu]

sangom,

i must be really going out of my mind. i have never seen such a senseless thread as this. who cares about gothrams? when someone divorces, all it means is that gothrams, horoscopes, astrologers all have failed utterly, in providing a satisfying marriage.

to me, it is like counting the mustard seeds, while melons are being stolen!

folks appear not to have any perspectives. atleast to me.

 

[prasad1]

Shri Prasad,

Divorce is not misfortune today; it is fortune. Two people who cannot get along as husband and wife are either allowed to break the contract of marriage by mutual consent or by judicial authority. And, I have not so far heard of any instance of the divorced pair reuniting. Almost all the divorced persons have married (prefer to marry) never married persons of the opposite sex; at least that seems to be the Indian trend so far. So, imho, I am not joking on some other's misfortune.

I had to react the way I did because the posters here seem to feel it is a very great matter of supreme importance. If the girl's gothram really changes to that of her husband's (i.e., she becomes a descendant of the rishis from whom the husband also descended, does she not become sagotra at that moment? So, at what point of time and by which artifice is the gotram changed?

Now, if the said girl is divorced how do we reinstate her into any gotra except by following the same artifice - another marriage? That means she is gotraless during the interrugnum; how can that be since every brahmin boy and every brahmin girl must belong to some gotra at all times? What will be the difference if the girl divorces her husband instead of he divorcing her?

It is after such intense introspection of various such points relating to this earth-shaking matter that I decided about a new "divorce" gotra. Again, it does not appear to me to be a joke based on somebody else's misfortunes or troubles.

BTW, don't you feel many of the common jokes are based on somebody's predicament, misfortune, etc?

I do not have an argument with you. Divorce is a traumatic experience in any relationship worldwide. It also means that there was a failure to communicate and unreasonable expectations. So it is a misfortune and sometimes the children are the worst sufferers.

I agree with Kunjuppu that this thread has no purpose. So is the Gothram, serves no purpose.

Let us give a new twist What if the girl was NB married to a B. What is her caste after divorce?

I think all birth based divisions are wrong, will it ever be possible to get away from birth based divisions? NO NO NO

Look at Obama they conveniently call him black President, mixed race President . So it seems Indians are not the only one to caught up in birth based grouping.

 

[N.R.Ranganathan]

Sir,
After the divorce by legal means, how does gothra matter ? Our dharma sastras
do not recognise divorce because marriage is solemnised before agni and by other
vedic rituals. It does not allow removal of mangal sutra except in the case of
death of the husband.

For a divorced wife, gothra does not matter at all.