Divorced girl to which Gothra she belong

[sangom]

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Our traditional system recognised a certain group of females a "punarbhoo" - a remarried widow. May be the divorced wife should be ranked above this punarbhoo.

As regards the girl's gotram changing to that of her husband, I have not been able to find any mantra in the brahmin marriage rite, alluding to such a change. But I have noticed invitees, more especially old and middle-aged women from the groom's side making a hubbub saying கோத்திரம் மாத்தப்போறா, கோத்திரம் மாத்தப்போறா. The belief among some tabras at least in these parts of the country is that it is a punyakarma if one listens to the vaadhyaars of the two sides announcing in their most stentorian voices, the pravaras, gotras, the three paternal ancestors of the bride and groom ending with इमाम् कन्याम् and महाविष्णुस्वरूपाय वराय (imām kanyām and mahāviṣṇusvarūpāya varāya) respectively. The next part is kanyaadaanam and maangalyadhaaranam. All these three portions do not have vedic approval. Hence, it is not clear to me on what basis it is said that the married girl suddenly undergoes a change of "Gotra".

Out of the various mantras to be recited in a marriage ceremony, the following is the only mantra which I found to have some distant relevance to the topic under discussion:-

प्रॆतो मुञ्चाति नामुतस्सुबद्धाममुतस्करत् ।
यथॆयमिन्द्र मीढ्वस्सुपुत्रा सुभगाऽसति ॥

preto muñcāti nāmutassubaddhāmamutaskarat |
yatheyamindra mīḍhvassuputrā subhagā:'sati ||

O Indra! thou art bountiful. See that the girl completely leaves her house and does not remain attached to her house. May she be well attached to her husband's house and may she have good children and prosperity.

Since divorce happens because basically the girl is not able to get along either with her husband or with her in-laws or both, I feel the above mantra becomes irrelevant in the case of a divorced marriage. The girl does not even get well attached to her husband's house. Therefore it appears to me that the divorced wife will revert back to her father's gotra on divorce, althouh the children from the divorced relationship will sport their father's gotra.

 

[sangom]

I do not have an argument with you. Divorce is a traumatic experience in any relationship worldwide. It also means that there was a failure to communicate and unreasonable expectations. So it is a misfortune and sometimes the children are the worst sufferers.

Shri Prasad,

Though you have made it clear that you dont want to have an argument with me, kindly permit me to say that divorce is traumatic during its process but not after it is over; in this respect, may be, it resembles delivery.

I can cite two cases about which I have fair knowledge. In one case the husband became an irreversible iskcon follower and one of their Acharyas. The husband's side blame the unhappy married life for the boy running away completely into the clutches of iskcon, from being just a devotee in the periphery. The wife's side say that the boy had a pronounced iskcon mania which was objected to by the wife mildly but his ego made him to disregard her pleas and warnings more and more.

Both spouses were in the top income bracket and were living in metros far away from our place. So, we do not know much about their married life and how it was.

Now, the wife refuses to grant divorce and we understand that she does not want the husband to ever marry. The husband is unconcerned now because he has become a celibate acharya of the iskcon order. One son aged about 8 years is studying in a posh school and the wife lives with her parents and her son; she is not in a traumatic situation nor is the child, though divorce has not taken place.

In another case a H1b visa holder boy married a H1b visa holder girl. There was hardly any compatibility between the two families and between the boy and the girl. Within one or two years of marriage and despite efforts made by the boy's parents to mend the situation, the marriage broke and there was divorce by mutual consent in US. The boy has since married another girl but the parents kept it secret but the bot's side seems quite normal and happy now. The girl's side are richer and the girl's grandfather is a US citizen; we do not know whether the firl remarried.

I can give a few more instances of divorced boys/girls having married second time and living happily as also some cases where the divorced wife is staying with her child without any apparent mental worry.

Hence, I would like to say that divorce is no longer a trauma or black mark once it is over.

 

[Govinda]

Sangom Sir,

Though the conclusions of the above posts were true - like the divorced girl belongs back to the father's gotra and the son belongs to his father's gotra, plus the trauma is over or forgotten after sometime, the girls cannot be blamed always.

 

[sridhga]

Hi,

This is in response to the original poster's query.

The girl loses her father's gothra and gets her husband's gothra upon the first marriage. Any divorce that could take place must have happened under the national/geographic law of the land. That divorce has not taken place under hindu dharma. Hindu dharma lasted for very long time. Geograpies and nations change very often. There is no reason to believe that this does not continue in the future. So the husband's gothra remains after the divorce. Return to father's gothra does not happen because the girl was given away in a 'Kanyadaan'. I am just applying logic based on dharma. Please do not make this controversial. I have all sympathies for someone undergoing or have undergone divorce.

 

[renuka]

Hi,

This is in response to the original poster's query.

The girl loses her father's gothra and gets her husband's gothra upon the first marriage. Any divorce that could take place must have happened under the national/geographic law of the land. That divorce has not taken place under hindu dharma. Hindu dharma lasted for very long time. Geograpies and nations change very often. There is no reason to believe that this does not continue in the future. So the husband's gothra remains after the divorce. Return to father's gothra does not happen because the girl was given away in a 'Kanyadaan'. I am just applying logic based on dharma. Please do not make this controversial. I have all sympathies for someone undergoing or have undergone divorce.

Agreed if you are applying logic of Hindu Dharma here.But just a question...I know Hindu Dharma has no Divorce..then would a subsequent 2nd marriage of the divorced girl be invalid in the eyes of Hindu Dharma?

Thats why I once had said in this thread when the DNA of anyone cant change why the hassle of a Gotra change?
Body is supposed to be a garment which is discarded upon death why are we renaming it?
Dont get me wrong please I am no Atheist or reformist ....just asking a few points thats all.

 

[sridhga]

Let us analyse the second marriage situation that you were mentioning. Who is going to give this girl in 'kanyadaan'? The father has already given her away in the form of 'Daan'. He cannot give again. And the girl who is already married in never called a 'kanya' in Hindu dharma. So the second marriage does not really exist under dharma. Please do not misunderstand me. I am just trying to analyse logically based on dharma. I am neither passing judgements nor castigating people based on their personal lives. I fully sympathize with someone going through turbulent personal life.

 

[renuka]

Let us analyse the second marriage situation that you were mentioning. Who is going to give this girl in 'kanyadaan'? The father has already given her away in the form of 'Daan'. He cannot give again. And the girl who is already married in never called a 'kanya' in Hindu dharma. So the second marriage does not really exist under dharma. Please do not misunderstand me. I am just trying to analyse logically based on dharma. I am neither passing judgements nor castigating people based on their personal lives. I fully sympathize with someone going through turbulent personal life.

dont worry I wont misunderstand you...I have a broad mind.

Ok coming to the terminology "Kanya"..it would be better to term Kanya=unmarried cos if we go by literal meaning Kanya=Virgin which is not always the case for anyone getting married.

We have seen even in Dwapara Yuga where Satyavathi delivered sage Vyasa through first union with Parasara Muni and then married King Shantanu.
So it was accepted then and Sathyavathi's dad actually made demands that her son should ascend the throne...so i am 100% sure there was a Kanyadaan.


So Kanyadhaan is much better understood if it means unmarried.Cos a person divorced or abandoned by husband is technically "unmarried" again.
So when the girl is technically unmarried again I see no harm in a second Kanyadaan.


P.S..I have quoted example from the Mahabharat solely for discussion purposes and not a slander campaign.

 

[sridhga]

For a true follower of The Bhagawat Gita, we are living our lives based on past karma. However, getting a human birth is rare and when we get such birth, we should not squander it. We should work for self realization. We should accept that the Lord is in control and we are just tools/players in his hands. To some extent, divorce goes against this thought process and here the person believes that he/she is going to take back (take control of) his/her life.


Coming to your other point on 'why gotra change is required', I believe that during this human birth, we have many responsibilities. They are grouped as Nitya Karmas, Nymittika Karmas etc. We still need to do our duty as per the Gita. Change of gothra helps one identify the lineage. If the woman does some upadesa based pujas she needs to mention her gothra during invocation. We still need to follow the tradition, vedas and scriptures. For a brahmin reading them is also one of the responsibilities.


I agree to your point that the body is discarded after this life. This, again is from the Gita. However, we still need to perform our duties during this life. That also means we cannot ignore this body or abuse it. The real purpose of this life is to try to attain moksha. One cannot attain that by giving up one's duties.


I tried to add my thoughts to the points that you have put across.

 

[renuka]

For a true follower of The Bhagawat Gita, we are living our lives based on past karma. However, getting a human birth is rare and when we get such birth, we should not squander it. We should work for self realization. We should accept that the Lord is in control and we are just tools/players in his hands. To some extent, divorce goes against this thought process and here the person believes that he/she is going to take back (take control of) his/her life.


Coming to your other point on 'why gotra change is required', I believe that during this human birth, we have many responsibilities. They are grouped as Nitya Karmas, Nymittika Karmas etc. We still need to do our duty as per the Gita. Change of gothra helps one identify the lineage. If the woman does some upadesa based pujas she needs to mention her gothra during invocation. We still need to follow the tradition, vedas and scriptures. For a brahmin reading them is also one of the responsibilities.


I agree to your point that the body is discarded after this life. This, again is from the Gita. However, we still need to perform our duties during this life. That also means we cannot ignore this body or abuse it. The real purpose of this life is to try to attain moksha. One cannot attain that by giving up one's duties.


I tried to add my thoughts to the points that you have put across.

Ok agreed but not everyone has Gotras or are aware of Gotras.
Brahmins know their Gotra well.Most of us Non Brahmins dont really remember or know our Gotra..so how does this rule apply to us who are also practising Hindus?

 

[subbudu1]

Ok agreed but not everyone has Gotras or are aware of Gotras.
Brahmins know their Gotra well.Most of us Non Brahmins dont really remember or know our Gotra..so how does this rule apply to us who are also practising Hindus?

If I am to try my luck with orthodox philosophy. Everyone has to have a lineage. Gotra is a word used for lineage and so they say. As per Hindu tradition none of the Rishis were the first humans. They just founded a lineage on their name. So you have a lineage in your name. In a patriarchal society in your husband's lineage. It may have started as a technicality to identify a common ancestor.

So what is your gotra? If you believe in patriarchal hindu system find out a great ancestor of your husband who has done good to the society. His name becomes your gotra name. If you can locate none begin the gotra with your grandfather or greatgrand father.. If you follow the patriarchal hindu system begin it with your husband's grandfather or his father. It helps atleast all the descendants know who their patriarchal head is. More famous your ancestors are, more you have occasion to lift your collar. If you dont like your lineage the alternate is to hijack somebody's lineage or better still , write a puranam in the name of your lineage. If your husband's ancestors were farmers. Then invent a puranam with the story of a person who came from balarama's plough. If you are ancestor were warriors then invent a story where your ancestors came from the the cow of vasistha and were released during the war with vishwamitra.

Said in jest, I am not saying that brahmin puranas were false. But we must be willing to believe that some masala may have been added by somebody. I would think it is better to be truthful about a lacklusture lineage than invent one or adopt one just for getting a status,

 

[subbudu1]

Agreed if you are applying logic of Hindu Dharma here.But just a question...I know Hindu Dharma has no Divorce..then would a subsequent 2nd marriage of the divorced girl be invalid in the eyes of Hindu Dharma?

Thats why I once had said in this thread when the DNA of anyone cant change why the hassle of a Gotra change?
Body is supposed to be a garment which is discarded upon death why are we renaming it?
Dont get me wrong please I am no Atheist or reformist ....just asking a few points thats all.

Hindu marriage definitely allows remarriage of some kind. I am no expert it just a lucky shot. Wife of Parasara, satyavati married santanu. All her subsequent children were the children of santanu. Since Vyasa was never adopted by santanu he remained the son of his father parasara.
On the other hand Kunti's brief relations with the devas did not change her marital status.
So I do not know about kanyadhan system in this story.
But otherewise the logic of marriage in mahabharata seems as follows

Husband and wife together marriage valid. Children belong to father's lineage.
Husband and wife separate (Parasara and Satyavati), wife is free, goes back to father and marriage as per the rites. Satyavati's father still in control of second marriage. Conclusion if women returns back to father the marriage is in her father's control. The children remain in their own father's gotra. Adoption of anyone is permissible so that changes situations. I would assume that vedic writers would assume that adoption of a dead man's only varisu would be considered cheating and is not necessary for the new husband of his wife.

Husband and wife together. Wife is not separated . Any other relations of wife, children belong to married husband and not to the donor.
Donor worthy then wife is secure. Donor unworthy wife is thrown out.

This is in brief law as seen in Mahabharat.


Husband died, wife can get a child through husband's blood links. It means any brother of husband or husband's father or husband's father's brother and so on. Child belongs to Husband's vamsa only.

 

[renuka]

If I am to try my luck with orthodox philosophy. Everyone has to have a lineage. Gotra is a word used for lineage and so they say. As per Hindu tradition none of the Rishis were the first humans. They just founded a lineage on their name. So you have a lineage in your name. In a patriarchal society in your husband's lineage. It may have started as a technicality to identify a common ancestor.

So what is your gotra? If you believe in patriarchal hindu system find out a great ancestor of your husband who has done good to the society. His name becomes your gotra name. If you can locate none begin the gotra with your grandfather or greatgrand father.. If you follow the patriarchal hindu system begin it with your husband's grandfather or his father. It helps atleast all the descendants know who their patriarchal head is. More famous your ancestors are, more you have occasion to lift your collar. If you dont like your lineage the alternate is to hijack somebody's lineage or better still , write a puranam in the name of your lineage. If your husband's ancestors were farmers. Then invent a puranam with the story of a person who came from balarama's plough. If you are ancestor were warriors then invent a story where your ancestors came from the the cow of vasistha and were released during the war with vishwamitra.

Said in jest, I am not saying that brahmin puranas were false. But we must be willing to believe that some masala may have been added by somebody. I would think it is better to be truthful about a lacklusture lineage than invent one or adopt one just for getting a status,

Good one..actually I always feel each one of us are as distinct as our fingerprints.
So i really dont want to add extra names to my existing name.
After all even if we identify with our Gotra finally we have to ask "Ka Aham?"(Who am I).
And the answer is same for all "Sah Aham"(I am He).
Dont see any Jati,Kula,Gotra in that answer.

 

[N.R.Ranganathan]

Renukaji,
That is in paaramaarthikam. Here the query pertains to vyavaharika.
I went thru' the query again now. I find that she is divorced and is
married to someone belonging to other caste. Why bother about gothra now?