Do Hindu Married Women need to wear Thali only made of Turmeric Saradu ?

[prasad1]

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If we were to toe this line, then tomorrow one can start any weird fancy of his/her as a new custom on the premise that it does not invalidate the vedas. Ramayana (Rama - Sita kalyanam) also has panigrahanam only; when those who want to follow in Rama's footsteps, should they not discard the practice?

If Rama did not tie Mangle sutra, when did this practice originated? Why is it only practiced in some region?

 

[zebra16]

If we were to toe this line, then tomorrow one can start any weird fancy of his/her as a new custom on the premise that it does not invalidate the vedas. Ramayana (Rama - Sita kalyanam) also has panigrahanam only; when those who want to follow in Rama's footsteps, should they not discard the practice?

Assuming thAli and mangal-soothrA are one and the same, there are paurAnic references to it such as brahmAnda purANam, Sri LalitA sahasranAmam, saundraya lahiri composed by Adi Sankara etc. The tradition is more than 1200 years old if Adi Sankara is believed to have been born in 8th century AD.

 

[auh]

Assuming thAli and mangal-soothrA are one and the same, there are paurAnic references to it such as brahmAnda purANam, Sri LalitA sahasranAmam, saundraya lahiri composed by Adi Sankara etc. The tradition is more than 1200 years old if Adi Sankara is believed to have been born in 8th century AD.

All the puranas are not accepted by those who call themselves as the hindu folk. You might have heard of the "Vaishnava Sudarsanam (I think, by Seshadri)", in which it is systematically (of course within the confines of the religious logic) that there are a lot of "later year interpolations" that have happened in the saiva puranas (I am not taking sides here, merely explaining how these puranas can be easily demolished). Poetic/religious compositions generally tend to relate to the social customs, and hence the detail should not be taken to conclude.

 

[mraghavan]

The thaali, called in Sanskrit as mangalasutra - the sacred thread, is worn by women to show their divinity. It is not prescribed in Vedas, but it is clearly a Tamil tradition based on temple traditions. The women is adorned with Manjal, much in the way a goddess in a temple is, to show she must be treated with respect and dignity, as she is the official head of the household (the men's dharma is to serve the community, the women is in charge of the home). Fashion statements aside, I think most Brahmins are instinctively rejecting it as it is not a Brahmin tradition. However, to wear one, should not be seen as subjugation, but elevation to a respected place in society.

 

[Rajasekar DC]

Acceptable to whole Hindu Married women Community

Let the doubt raiser ask his wife to remove Thali, and see whether she accepts his proposal

I think wearing majal saradu gives an opportunity to remember husband affectionlately when smearing turmeric at bath and gives an opportunity to husband to tie New manjall saradu when it worn out paving way to intimacy between couple

 

[Brahmanyan]

Do Hindu Married Women need to wear Thali only made of Turmeric Saradu ?.

There is a book written by V.R.Anil Kumar "Vivaha Samskara in Grihya-Sutras of the Four Vedas" has been reviewed
recently in many Religious Magazines. I give below relevent portion of review by S.Jagannatha,Research Scholar, ORI, Samskrita Department, Manasagangotri, Mysore, relating to Mangalasutra in the said book .

For any scholar, chapter 7 is very important because it is of comparative study. Usually in this type of works, all the points are put in a tabular form. But the author of VSG mentions all points one by one in detail. In some cases showing the points in paragraphs is preferable to placing them in a table. Even though repetitions are inevitable in this method, it helps the reader to understand the points vividly. Author writes every point in clear sentences. Suitable time for marriage, qualities of bride and groom, forms of marriage, kanyadana, bathing and dressing the bride, panigrahana (most probably the oldest ritual), saptapadi (mentioned in all Grihyasutras), ashmarohana, lajahoma, agni-parinayana (circumambulating around Agni), grihapravesha, triratravrata and caturthikarman are elaborated. Order of contents of vivaha samskaras follows.
Chaprer 8 is a compilation of major mantras with mentioning the known sources. Variants are shown.Summary follows in chapter 9. Analysis is the main subject of this chapter. It is clearly shown that some rituals were added in later periods. Further evolutions from Grihyasutras like dibbana (baraat in Hindi) are mentioned. Tali (in Kannada) or mangalasutra is not mentioned in any Grihyasutra. We are informed that this custom is taken from the tribal practice. This opinion is already in circulation among Indologists. But it is hard to believe that our ancestors, being staunch conservatives, imitated tribal communities in marriage rituals. Why they should follow lower-class people in only tali when they had so many customary injunctions in scriptures? ......
(Full review is available in the URL:http://www.dkprintworld.com/product-detail.php?pid=1280857365

During the past century we find the Hindu marriage rituals have changed from purly sacrmental to social function by adding and deleting many rituals. Regarding wearing "Thali", it is better to leave the same to one's wish.

Brahmanyan,
Bangalore.

 

[renuka]

. But it is hard to believe that our ancestors, being staunch conservatives, imitated tribal communities in marriage rituals. Why they should follow lower-class people in only tali when they had so many customary injunctions in scriptures? ......
(Full review is available in the URL:http://www.dkprintworld.com/product-detail.php?pid=1280857365

.

I guess to make it less tribal..a Sanskrit mantra was coined!

 

[Raji Ram]

...........Regarding wearing "Thali", it is better to leave the same to one's wish. .........

Dear Sir,

Now a days, everything should be left to one's wish; why ONLY wearing a 'ThAli'?

The oft repeated phrase is 'Intrusion of privacy!'

 

[sangom]

There is a book written by V.R.Anil Kumar "Vivaha Samskara in Grihya-Sutras of the Four Vedas" has been reviewed
recently in many Religious Magazines. I give below relevent portion of review by S.Jagannatha,Research Scholar, ORI, Samskrita Department, Manasagangotri, Mysore, relating to Mangalasutra in the said book .

For any scholar, chapter 7 is very important because it is of comparative study. Usually in this type of works, all the points are put in a tabular form. But the author of VSG mentions all points one by one in detail. In some cases showing the points in paragraphs is preferable to placing them in a table. Even though repetitions are inevitable in this method, it helps the reader to understand the points vividly. Author writes every point in clear sentences. Suitable time for marriage, qualities of bride and groom, forms of marriage, kanyadana, bathing and dressing the bride, panigrahana (most probably the oldest ritual), saptapadi (mentioned in all Grihyasutras), ashmarohana, lajahoma, agni-parinayana (circumambulating around Agni), grihapravesha, triratravrata and caturthikarman are elaborated. Order of contents of vivaha samskaras follows.
Chaprer 8 is a compilation of major mantras with mentioning the known sources. Variants are shown.Summary follows in chapter 9. Analysis is the main subject of this chapter. It is clearly shown that some rituals were added in later periods. Further evolutions from Grihyasutras like dibbana (baraat in Hindi) are mentioned. Tali (in Kannada) or mangalasutra is not mentioned in any Grihyasutra. We are informed that this custom is taken from the tribal practice. This opinion is already in circulation among Indologists. But it is hard to believe that our ancestors, being staunch conservatives, imitated tribal communities in marriage rituals. Why they should follow lower-class people in only tali when they had so many customary injunctions in scriptures? ......
(Full review is available in the URL:http://www.dkprintworld.com/product-detail.php?pid=1280857365

During the past century we find the Hindu marriage rituals have changed from purly sacrmental to social function by adding and deleting many rituals. Regarding wearing "Thali", it is better to leave the same to one's wish.

Brahmanyan,
Bangalore.

Without Anilkumar or Chapter7etc., I have been saying, time and again, that thAli is a custom which was aped by the migrating vedic brahmanas from the peasantry (vELALar) of ancient Tamil land. To call it as a tribal custom will tantamount to saying that the incoming vedic Aryan brahmins considered the Aam aadmi of the Tamil land as nothing more than mere "tribals"!

Brahmins possibly aped this custom for fear of their womenfolk being molested, raped or even taken away by any Tamil man because, without a thAli, it was their custom to look at women without thAli as unmarried and so available for marriage/sexual enjoyment.

 

[sarang]

You have not still accepted that all practices need not be vedas related or need vedic sanction. Customs and practices can be local, borrowed from puranas and itihasas or from the people and community one respects. Customs are acquired or given up after sanction from the community and religious heads.

Our customs have changed a lot in the recent decades - church-hindu wedding ceremony, and lot more.

Without Anilkumar or Chapter7etc., I have been saying, time and again, that thAli is a custom which was aped by the migrating vedic brahmanas from the peasantry (vELALar) of ancient Tamil land. To call it as a tribal custom will tantamount to saying that the incoming vedic Aryan brahmins considered the Aam aadmi of the Tamil land as nothing more than mere "tribals"!

Brahmins possibly aped this custom for fear of their womenfolk being molested, raped or even taken away by any Tamil man because, without a thAli, it was their custom to look at women without thAli as unmarried and so available for marriage/sexual enjoyment.

 

[auh]

You have not still accepted that all practices need not be vedas related or need vedic sanction. Customs and practices can be local, borrowed from puranas and itihasas or from the people and community one respects. Customs are acquired or given up after sanction from the community and religious heads.

Our customs have changed a lot in the recent decades - church-hindu wedding ceremony, and lot more.

On the same token, you have to understand and accept that customs are not sacrosanct either. Since these are acquired sometime in between, they can also vanish somewhere along the journey.

There is no great achievement in sticking to these old customs and practices in modern times.

 

[auh]

Brahmins possibly aped this custom for fear of their womenfolk being molested, raped or even taken away by any Tamil man because, without a thAli, it was their custom to look at women without thAli as unmarried and so available for marriage/sexual enjoyment.

Now that seems very much probable !

 

[auh]

I guess to make it less tribal..a Sanskrit mantra was coined!

Not only the mantra but also a whole set of rituals were fabricated (refer karadayan nombu).

 

[prasad1]

On the same token, you have to understand and accept that customs are not sacrosanct either. Since these are acquired sometime in between, they can also vanish somewhere along the journey.

There is no great achievement in sticking to these old customs and practices in modern times.

Wow watch out you will be branded an "armchir revolutionary" or even a "hindu basher". LOL
I agree with your post.

 

[sarang]

There is a big difference between traditions and practices getting modified or strengthened by natural means and forced to change by abusive rationalists and sword wielding/fire breathing reformists/conversionists.
At the individual level one is free to do what he wants, to value, respect and follow or just walk out. Worst that can happen is excommunication.

Today pope has advised the priests to forgive women who have voluntarily aborted. Means he still considers it as sin, but forgiven without confession!

On the same token, you have to understand and accept that customs are not sacrosanct either. Since these are acquired sometime in between, they can also vanish somewhere along the journey.

There is no great achievement in sticking to these old customs and practices in modern times.

 

[zebra16]

Without Anilkumar or Chapter7etc., I have been saying, time and again, that thAli is a custom which was aped by the migrating vedic brahmanas from the peasantry (vELALar) of ancient Tamil land. To call it as a tribal custom will tantamount to saying that the incoming vedic Aryan brahmins considered the Aam aadmi of the Tamil land as nothing more than mere "tribals"!

Brahmins possibly aped this custom for fear of their womenfolk being molested, raped or even taken away by any Tamil man because, without a thAli, it was their custom to look at women without thAli as unmarried and so available for marriage/sexual enjoyment.

If the male members of a community felt that a woman was available for molestation, rape or for being taken away for sexual enjoyment or marriage just because no marriage mark was available on the woman's neck, what else their belief system can be called other than tribalism? I think even tribalism is a too mild word.

 

[sangom]

You have not still accepted that all practices need not be vedas related or need vedic sanction. Customs and practices can be local, borrowed from puranas and itihasas or from the people and community one respects. Customs are acquired or given up after sanction from the community and religious heads.

Our customs have changed a lot in the recent decades - church-hindu wedding ceremony, and lot more.

Whenever and wherever any plus point about brahmins/tabras is written about, mostly the practice, I find, is to cite the vedic knowledge of brahmins or equally good scriptural origins of our ways of living, customs, etc.

I have never claimed that everything and anything in the brahmin customs is/should be from the vedas. All that I have been pointing out is that "thAlikeTTu" does not form part of the original vedic marriage ritual; if for example we are prepared to allow the IC & IR marriages we can jolly well dispense with the "vedic" marriage and be satisfied with a simple "thAlikeTTu" and registration of the marriage.

 

[sangom]

If the male members of a community felt that a woman was available for molestation, rape or for being taken away for sexual enjoyment or marriage just because no marriage mark was available on the woman's neck, what else their belief system can be called other than tribalism? I think even tribalism is a too mild word.

"tribalism" has been grossly misunderstood by you, or you have no idea of what is bandied about as "sanAtana dharma".

Tribes have very specific and very strict laws and customs relating to marriage/ man-woman closeness which are even more difficult to observe than the lax rules we have now in modern urban, tabra milieu even. The penalty for violating the tribal rules is either death or exile, both equally harsh.

Our much eulogized sanAtana dharma allowed any brahmin to take the hands of any woman, including married woman and if the woman did not object, she was free to go with that man.

I therefore feel that you are making a statement just for grabbing some attention, but without any background.

 

[a-TB]

I think most customs have value only because a group of people have bestowed that value on that custom.
All that matters is that those people think it is a big deal.

For others the customs on which they place a value could be different.

We could get along by mutual respect of the customs involved.

 

[zebra16]

I therefore feel that you are making a statement just for grabbing some attention, but without any background.

It seems you are incapable of posting more than 40-50 posts without attempting to put down one or another poster.

"tribalism" has been grossly misunderstood by you, or you have no idea of what is bandied about as "sanAtana dharma".

And you cannot desist bad-mouthing "sanAtana dharma" even when there was no provocation.

Tribes have very specific and very strict laws and customs relating to marriage/ man-woman closeness which are even more difficult to observe than the lax rules we have now in modern urban, tabra milieu even. The penalty for violating the tribal rules is either death or exile, both equally harsh.

So why were you finding fault with Brahmanyan's post or Anil Kumar and made a Holier-than-thou statement like this :

Without Anilkumar or Chapter7etc., I have been saying, time and again, that thAli is a custom which was aped by the migrating vedic brahmanas from the peasantry (vELALar) of ancient Tamil land. To call it as a tribal custom will tantamount to saying that the incoming vedic Aryan brahmins considered the Aam aadmi of the Tamil land as nothing more than mere "tribals"!

Is it that you alone are the Brahma-rishi vasishta of anti-sanAthana Dharma?

At the end of the day, notwithstanding your loud protestations and award of certificate of merit to "tribals", a community which considered women not wearing marks of marriage as easy pickings for molestation, rape or abduction does not come out as a community unit with high morals.

 

[balaji7820]

IMHO, it reminds both the partners about the oath that both took when they got married in front of the agni. Marriage is not about the individual but about two families coming together to bring the next generation into this world. The thali is a reminder for both the husband and wife to ensure that all their actions, thoughts, etc are towards ensuring that the next generation is provided with best of health and wisdom, mind you it has nothing to do with money. If you have personal ambitions please do not marry, if you decide to get married personal ambitions, needs, wants etc must be forgotten.

 

[Brahmanyan]

Do

You have not still accepted that all practices need not be vedas related or need vedic sanction. Customs and practices can be local, borrowed from puranas and itihasas or from the people and community one respects. Customs are acquired or given up after sanction from the community and religious heads.
Our customs have changed a lot in the recent decades - church-hindu wedding ceremony, and lot more.

Yes, very true. No custom is static, they change rapidly according to the changes in the Society. Let us look at our dress today, as compared to previous generation both male and female attires have changed. Traditional form of dressing has been reserved for religious occasions only.

Fifty years ago did we hear the words "Mehandi ceremony" in our weddings ! No Sir. Today it has become a part of our weddings along with "Sangeeth" and "Dances". "Mehandi" or "Henna" has migrated to India from the Middle Eastern traditions.

Brahmanyan,
Bangalore.

 

[renuka]

But whatever said and done I find the Sangeet sessions too loud for my liking..at times its too brazen in my opinion.
Some females sing on top of their voices..just too loud.

 

[krish44]

IMHO, it reminds both the partners about the oath that both took when they got married in front of the agni. Marriage is not about the individual but about two families coming together to bring the next generation into this world. The thali is a reminder for both the husband and wife to ensure that all their actions, thoughts, etc are towards ensuring that the next generation is provided with best of health and wisdom, mind you it has nothing to do with money. If you have personal ambitions please do not marry, if you decide to get married personal ambitions, needs, wants etc must be forgotten.

Marriage does not mean that other needs ,wants of the individual cannot be realised or should be forgotten.

There is space for everything in life.

Only we should know how to fulfill all our needs making space for them in an active life.

I believe marriage leads to a larger circle of relatives to bank on . Each one is a potential resource.

Next generation requires our help only for a few years About 20-25 years in a long life span of 70 plus. That is also not a full time job during those years. After that

only parents want them not children.

So why talk of marriage as end of the world and a kind of total darkness after tying a thali on some innocent girl.

marriage is just one more event ,like birth,or death

 

[krish44]

But whatever said and done I find the Sangeet sessions too loud for my liking..at times its too brazen in my opinion.
Some females sing on top of their voices..just too loud.

Nothing prevents in collecting some melodious voices for sangeeth.

In north india there are specialised groups for that.

Even in south some specialise in wedding songs -I have across some professionals singing them in brahmin marriages