Do 'pithrus' really curse?

[suraju06]

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Dear Kunjuppu, your post #49:

If Ashvin's was wringing of hands, your post #49 is recommendation for harakiri. Now to the specifics:

since the dawn of the 20th century, the community has gone by the rule of the 3cs - Convenience, Collaboration and Cash.

When was it different? Always these are the driving forces for any culture. If some one says it is not so he is not honest. This applies particularly to minorities and weaklings which brahmins are.

we twisted the rituals to suit our convenience, the vathiars collaborated with us for doing this, and in return we provided them cash in lieu of values. our conscience was cleared, as per 'namesake' we did the 'rituals' and supposedly satisified the pithrus and the rest of the society (so we thought).

Not every one of us. Every community has such blacksheeps. Even Jesus Christ had one amongst his close followers. It was the powerful forces of a monetised economy which drove us away from Sanskrit and out rituals became just meaningless rituals to most of us. It was not as if we deliberately chose to turn every ritual into a meaningless process. We were helpless. Yet those who wanted, learnt the meaning and had the satisfaction of doing a perfect karma. Do we do a ritual to satisfy the society? When do we do that? There you are underestimating the society.

personally, i think, this is the ripe time for reformation of our creed. move away from rituals and into the world of thought. that too simplified thought so that the least common denominator can understand, support, propagate and live by those thoughts. if that is not possible, then i think, we are in for further watering down to eventual merger with our host communities whether it be marathis, punjabis or canadians.

We have had enough of thought and hair splitting interpretion of those thoughts. What we need is a simple understanding of the greatness of our community and genuine pride in having saved it from extinction this far. There is nothing great in other communities which is adequate reward for merger. If you know just one, please let me know. I have very close and intimate understanding of all those communities as I have lived for long in their midst.

that may not be a bad thing, if one feels that this the normal flow of history. and that the past milleniums, with its adherence to the concept of purity of blood and lineage, through arranged marriage, is but a figment of imagination or aberration of norms. i dont know.

Purity of blood and lineage are not things to be dismissed so lightly without even trying to understand them. I have said this already and am saying it again. 1)Culture has an impact at the gene level 2)Cultural practices modify the genes in a fundamental way over thousands of years of adherence to such practices. This is not empty rhetoric. This has been proved scientifically by anthropologists. Please refer to the work of anthropologist Robert Boyd and his colleague from the UCLA.(University of California Los angeles) and at least two other teams of researchers who are working in this area. It is neither a figment of imagination nor an aberration as you are trying to make out. If any thing, your understanding of the subject is completely flawed. You are prejudiced and it would be better if you approach the subject with an open mind forgetting for a moment all the rhetoric and catchy phrases about equality, fraternity etc.

to talk of taking pledges and also getting powerfully positioned tambrams to identify their caste publicly and do religious identity type of things, will eventually smack of hindutva politics, as it invariably becomes a bastion of bashing everyone other than tambrams. that has been the results before, because we have tried. the tambram association is supposed to 'safeguard' our interests, but i think, we will have a big problems identifying what our 'interest' is.

If I studied in IIT and am in a position to decide the selection of a vendor for my company and if I come across two competitors and one of them is an IITian, my natural preference will be for him if other things are all equal. That is the way the society functions. We are all comfortable with a known quantity (Ask Praveen’s computer. It knows a lot about this. If you have doubt move your cursor over the small rectangle you see below my name/avatar here). I said about taking pledges (Pledge #1?) in this context. There is no need to declare and make position statements before deciding on a brahmin in preference to others. Of course it is your right to twist things out of shape and then score a point.

many of us, abhor the concept of separation from our hindu brethren. that type of distinctivity as practised 100 years ago, including agraharam living, does not hold water anymore. it is perhaps that isolation, more than anything else, prevented us from understanding the deep differences between the various tamil hindu groups. to us these were one homogeneous NB, and we can see from another thread by ashwin, who continues to carry that idea. must have been drummed pretty hard and good into his head.

This is the outcome of binary thinking. By being aware of your roots as a Brahmin how does it make you non-hindu? Why should separation from others come in? Please understand clearly that being aware of your heritage and cultural roots as a Brahmin is not to automatically bestow any superiority to you. Why do you translate the Brahmin and others equation into a superior and inferior equation. They are not the same. Being a Brahmin I do not claim any inherent superiority nor do I accept any inherent inferiority. I am just saying I am a Brahmin. The rest is all politics.

many adhere themselves to mutts like kanchi or sringeri. but these are rock hard residences of status quo. the previous kanchi mutt head is supposed to have begged gandhi to call of vaikom struggle, as entry of dalits would eventually result in the destruction of sanatana dharma. everyone of us can wonder, on this action from a supposed learned pontiff, the fairness and empathyness of this attitude, as viewed by a God common to us all. in a world of equals, there should be no nandanars, and no need to deify him. for all of us are either nandanars or achaarayars.

I do not know as to what was the reasons for the stand taken by Kanchi Acharya if at all he had taken such a stand. I will do some research and come back. Till then I have nothing to say about this.

i think no amount of hand wringing or breast beating is going to change the way the community is going. we can speculate on the results. but the facts are that agraharams are deserted. our girls are doing better and earning more than the boys. they are more open to marriages outside of our caste. and a significant portion of our community is outside of india. i may even venture to say, with a certain amount of confidence, that the majority of tambrams live outside of tamilnadu - just a gut feeling there.

I do not agree with handwringing when there is a problem. Nor do I applaud doomsday soothsayers with their easy solutions to give up every thing that is dear and merge and float in the stream listlessly and aimlessly. Brahmin girls and boys married other caste men and women in earlier times too. It is not something which bothers me too much. It all depends on the upbringing and circumstances. Parents are the culprits. In all such cases the parents have failed miserably in their duties to the children. May be in order to silence the conscience which is pricking, they pat themselves on their back saying they are cosmopolitan in outlook and are modern. Pathetic creatures, they can not live peacefully otherwise. Agraharams are deserted because the economy is changing its shape. From being an agrarian economy it is becoming a manufacturing economy. What is applicable to Brahmins is equally applicable to other communities too. There are thevar and chettiyar girls marrying Brahmin or nadar boys because of opportunities which are many these days as compared to earlier times. But that does not make intercaste or interreligious marriages desirable or preferred unions. It is not as if every Brahmin girl is standing in a queue to marry boy from a different community.

with all this in the momentum, with an absolute zero in terms of leadership of any kind, and absolutely no vision of what we should be in the future, and having pangs over an imagined but what i think is a highly flawed past, i think, all we can do, to instant outbursts of folks like ashwin (he is gone now i think never to appear again), is to mope and mumble, pat some consolation, and keep on moving, doing the very same things, that some feel are inimical to our existence, and yet practise it.jai tambram!

Our past was not a flawed one. It was a glorious one. It remains a glorious one even today as many of my friends from other communities say. They all prefer to buy their houses in Brahmin localities in cities. They want their children to pick up friends from Brahmins in preference to others. It was flawed only in the eyes of a few casteist politicians and it will remain that way. We do not want to change them.
Your understanding is highly skewed. Please come back to firm ground.
And finally I have to say this. If you have settled down in Canada, please choose a girl or boy for your children from the available local population and celebrate the marriage because your options are not many. But for us here in bharathvarsh we still have our options. So what is applicable to you may not be applicable to us here. So please keep whatever you have with you and be happy. Your attempt to sell your formula to us here is clumsy.

Cheers.

 

[kunjuppu]

... But for us here in bharathvarsh we still have our options. So what is applicable to you may not be applicable to us here. So please keep whatever you have with you and be happy. Your attempt to sell your formula to us here is clumsy.

Cheers.

dear suraju,

thank you for your thoughtfully analytical dissection. but i am sort of disappointed with your final punch line re 'selling my formula'.

i do wish to withdraw any attempt to sell any viewpoint. i was coming from a viewpoint of frank realism. certain things like flawed or glorious past is a matter of personal opinion, again based on whether one believes in inclusive hinduism or considers it as a B/NB divide.

also it is also all in the past and the consequences are reverberating and will do so for long. you are only wrong, if you think, i do not share the pain. i do probably as much as anyone else with a tambram heritage, but our analysis process, while in parallel are different in content.

again it is not worth even wasting any time between you and me. re gandhi and kanchi mutt, here is what jeyamohan says. nobody could call jeyamohan anti hindu or anti brahmin.

http://www.jeyamohan.in/?p=26022

 

[sravna]

Dear Shri Kunjuppu,

Those who believe in our glorious past cannot be faulted for that. Though there were flaws in our past as is inevitable in any period of time, that fact doesn't take away all that was good. I would say our insights into the workings of nature and the knowledge we developed in various spheres of life and the way we saw the unity in any diversity are all commendable ones. I would add that the solutions of the west for the same problems which are followed by the majority of the world population are very much myopic.

The talk about the need to practice equality is more a lip service today than being in real practice. Prejudices exist in the society left, right and center. That is basically due to the flaws in the human mind. Ironically the solution to set right such flaws can be got from our past knowledge which you see as flawed.

There is no crime that is being committed when a brahmin way of life is practised. Actually that should be welcomed by one and all because it is directed towards seeing unity, harmony and peace. No wonder those who see that truth stand firm by it.

 

[XLR8R]

They might, but it depends on whether you are going down the same dark path or not. Karma is still important and there is a balance between blessings and curses. Thus, keep good karma and you will be fine.

 

[sarang]

Well put. The neo-mlechas' chest thumping is oK as long as they thump their own chests

By the way, mlecha is not a derogatory word. Mlechas too have right to survive if they mind their own business.

Dear Shri Kunjuppu,

Those who believe in our glorious past cannot be faulted for that. Though there were flaws in our past as is inevitable in any period of time, that fact doesn't take away all that was good. I would say our insights into the workings of nature and the knowledge we developed in various spheres of life and the way we saw the unity in any diversity are all commendable ones. I would add that the solutions of the west for the same problems which are followed by the majority of the world population are very much myopic.

The talk about the need to practice equality is more a lip service today than being in real practice. Prejudices exist in the society left, right and center. That is basically due to the flaws in the human mind. Ironically the solution to set right such flaws can be got from our past knowledge which you see as flawed.

There is no crime that is being committed when a brahmin way of life is practised. Actually that should be welcomed by one and all because it is directed towards seeing unity, harmony and peace. No wonder those who see that truth stand firm by it.

 

[Raji Ram]

Each one of us have the right to have our own way of living. No problem arises as long as it does not hurt

others! I do not follow the strict 'madi' or 'AchAram' every day. They are reserved only for special days!

When I allow my helper maid in all the rooms in my sweet home, my in-laws object to it! I tell them that

if she is clean, I don't have any problem of letting her in!
So it is the mind set which decides whether something is right or wrong! :decision:

 

[sangom]

Will someone please answer my genuine question?

Is there a putra dosham and putri dosham too? Are there any parihArams for that too?

Shri Narayanan,

I have heard some good jyotishis using the term "putra dosham" but it is in a different connotation; i.e., the horoscope shows unsatisfactory or outright evil as regards putra bhAvam or the house relating to progeny. Again, this can work in many different ways but the one sure conclusion to be drawn is that the person whose horoscope shows such dosham will have to undergo many troubles on account of his/her children or the lack of progeny. This term applies to "putrees" also.

I know a woman whose horoscope showed such a feature. The woman was already old and had two daughters and there was not much scope of a third child being born to the couple. So, I told her that she should be prepared to face a lot of troubles on account of either or both of her daughters. She then brought the horoscopes of both the daughters and also told that another native jyotsyan (called "kaNiyAn") had also told her that her second daughter will "make her drink much tears", a phrase which means that the second daughter would cause much sorrow and anguish to the mother. This actually happened and this illiterate mother suffered many years of troubles, sorrow, had to sell her house and go settle with her other (elder) daughter and so on; all these she did in a stoic manner and at present there seems to be some peace but one cannot say what the future holds for this poor woman.

Astrologers say many parihArams for both the dOshams — of not having children and of having troublesome children, and many people spend hard-earned moneys on such parihArams. Statistically, 50% may get some benefits on account of doing such parihArams while the other 50% may not. I pesonally believe that it is best to be stoic in such matters even if it may be a cause of some social criticisms and even shame for honourable parents.

 

[Raji Ram]

Again talking of MAndhi. One of my close relatives had a lot of trouble because of his daughter!

Then they found out that it is because his horoscope had MAndhi in the fifth place from Lagnam. :evil:

 

[sangom]

Again talking of MAndhi. One of my close relatives had a lot of trouble because of his daughter!

Then they found out that it is because his horoscope had MAndhi in the fifth place from Lagnam. :evil:

Dhooma, Vyateepaata, Parivesha, Indrachaapa, Upaketu, Kaala, Mrityu, Ardhaprahara, YamakaNtaka, Gulika and Maandi are 11 upagrahas which are found referred to in the various standard astrology texts. All of these generally create problems and difficulties and the more (funny) and relevant point is that different methods for calculating their position in the horoscope are also in vogue. There is, therefore, no great value in predicting anything based on these upagrahas, imo. Also note that mAndi is also called guLikan by many Kerala astrologers perhaps because they are unaware that both are separate upagrahas according to some texts on astrology.

You had a doubt about twins born minutes apart. There is one system which depends on the shashtyamsa chart and people who have learnt that say that this shashtyamsa chart will give a clear idea about the good and bad karmas causing the particular birth and which aspects of the life of that person will be favourably or adversely affected, etc. Since the shashtyamsa chart usually in about 2 minutes or so, the difference in the lives of twins may be predictable by people who are adept in shashtyamsa readings.

However cases of conjoined (Siamese) twins one of whom dies as a result of the surgery to separate them, is a real tough problem for astrology, I think.

 

[Raji Ram]

Dear Sangom Sir,
Thank you very much for the detailed reply. Make me think, 'Ignorance is bliss'!! eace:

 

[B.Krishnamurthy]

A famous astrologer with more than 60 years of experience in Srirangam told me in 1986
that he was finding most of the Horoscope (in his later years) with some Dosha or the other
and rarely came across clean Horoscopes.When he started practicing Astrology,he found a majority of Horoscopes without Dosha.This could be due to change in our lifestyles in recent years.
A colleague of mine(an orthodox Vaishnavite)lost his two brilliant sons in similar circumstances.
The first son died in IIT hostel(natural death)and a few years later his second son also died in the same hostel under similar circumstances.The poor guy and his wife are still living without any children.
In many cases the children die while their parents are alive.
One learned Scholar advised me to do the following every year
On a NEW MOON(Amavasya)day(preferably the month in which the father or any other elderly member had expired)place a plantain leaf in your Pooja Room and keep rice,vegetables (which we use normally on
Amavasya days)fruits etc.All the members of the family will take bath and participate in the prayers.Pray to all forefathers to bless the present and future generations in the family to lead a peaceful life and to pardon the future generations for any deficiency or failure to perform any rites for the forefathers. The items placed in the plantain leaf will be cooked and shared by all members of the family.No purohit or any outsiders.It will be a purely family affair.
I was performing for a few years.After the demise of my wife,I could not continue.
It gave me mental peaceand satisfaction that I could remember and honour my forefathers.

 

[Raji Ram]

............ It gave me mental peaceand satisfaction that I could remember and honour my forefathers.

Dear B K Sir,

In Chinese tradition also there is a 'day' to pray the forefathers (and foremothers!)

On that particular day, a nice feast is prepared and all the items are kept on the dining table.
They pray the ancestors to bless them with a happy and peaceful life. Then have the feast! ray2:

 

[kunjuppu]

dear BK,

we do many things to give us peace of mind. God Bless you sir, and hope you had/have the strength to go through life without your spouse. they say that it is the loss of the spouse, which is the biggest shock in one's life (surprisingly not the child, though i would have thought such).

re pithrus - it is a matter of deep faith. if our ancestors really care about us, will they be so selfish in spirit as to be demanding of material things which they cannot relate to anyway due to their own nonmaterial self?

and from then on, takes several branches of thought, all of them either acquiescing out of fear, to some rituals, or carrying on life, to the best of effort attitude.

i still remember my mother getting so upset when on thevasam day, that pithru, in the form of a crow, would not appear, or would not partake of the rice pindam. such needless and irrational worry and upset! and overall the underlying fear. and throw some guilt into it.

can you ever justify passing on this type of stuff to the next generation?

sir, i dont know. dont have answers. ancient societies like india or china or europe, are filled with demons, spirits, pithrus, ghosts, mohini pisasus and angels. how we deal with this, i dont know. all i remember, is that there used to be a mango tree, outside my window, and on hot still nights, i used to imagine spirits occupying it, and inspite of 100+F heat, used to slam the windows tight shut.

 

[renuka]

You guys should check out Chinese doing ancestral worship during the Hungry Ghost Month which coincides with the Hindu Pitru Paksha.

They make all sorts of paper objects and burn them..so that it reaches Pitru Loka.

It is believed that for the Hungry Ghost Month..the gates of hell is open and all ancestors come and stay for almost 1 month with their descendants.

The whole month is full of activity and some dance and songs are also done to entertain the dead...becos it is believed that the dead too join in the dance and song!
Sometimes real sexy dance too are done!LOL

Anyway the paper objects are made to resemble real objects and it can range from money..to cars and now lap tops,Ipads, Smart phones too are made and burnt in fire.

Horses,apartments, maids made from paper and burnt in fire so that the dead will get them up in hell too.

I don't know why Chinese never talk about heaven but they only talk about hell.

Personally I feel all forms of ancestral worship is just to satisfy the human mind that they are showing some form of thanks to their ancestors.

But frankly speaking I do not feel we need to go overboard at times cos at the end of the day all forms of relationships are supposed to cease upon death so why prolong attachment for the departed??

Why make them yearn for us instead of letting them workout their own Karma?

And further more to a certain extent all this practice of ancestral worship is for the economical gain of all quarters of society and in that process everyone gets a cut from it(gets some money).

Some astrologers or priests are able to predict enough things beyond the scope of imagination which I wonder if it is true to start with in the first place.

But sometimes I wonder if the practice of ancestral worship actually takes us away from worshiping God??
Cos if we surrender everything to God and let God decide why do we need all these?

I guess if we behave well in this world we can safely sing:

"Chandrasekharamashraye Mama Kim Karishyati Vai Yamaha"(when I have surrendered unto Chandrasekhara what can Yama do unto me)


Vaishnava option:

devarṣi-bhūtāpta-nṛṇāṁ pitṟṇāṁna kiṅkaro nāyam ṛṇī ca rājansarvātmanā yaḥ śaraṇaṁ śaraṇyaṁgato mukundaṁ parihṛtya kartam

"Anyone who has taken shelter of the lotus feet of Mukunda, the giver of liberation, giving up all kinds of obligation, and has taken to the path in all seriousness, owes neither duties nor obligations to the demigods, sages, general living entities, family members, humankind or forefathers." Such obligations are automatically fulfilled by performance of devotional service to the Supreme Personality of Godhead.
(Taken from BG as it is)

 

[tbs]

hi renu,
there is a mantra...bhoota pretha pisacha brahma rakshasa yaksha yama dhoota saakini daakini......so there is some connection

with pitru dosham/sapam......

 

[renuka]

hi renu,
there is a mantra...bhoota pretha pisacha brahma rakshasa yaksha yama dhoota saakini daakini......so there is some connection

with pitru dosham/sapam......

Dear TBS Garu,

All these pisacha,bhoot are there in their own realm..if they bother us then recite:

bhoot pisaach Nikat nahin aavai
Mahavir jab naam sunavae

 

[Raji Ram]

When I visited Kerala last year, I came to know about 'Vishnu Maya' temples. Some families build their own

temples, to get rid of the 'seyvinai' by their relatives! One of the roads had many Vishnu Maya temples.

After some parihArams are done, the money 'kept' separately reaches the 'Hundi' of the temple. It is said

that we should NOT accept any prasAdham from the temple! It was something new I never heard of earlier!

Read more about Vishnu Maya here

 

[Raji Ram]

Vishnu Maya:

Picture courtesy: Google images.

 

[sangom]

Beliefs as conveyed in post#62 to 64, the idea of vishnu maya etc., are, to speak the truth, man's own creations out of his fertile imagination. Reciting slokas or mantras or visiting certain temples, etc., to find a cure for some kinds of physical and/or mental afflictions is, at best, a childish way of consoling oneself. If the affliction itself is/was entirely due to one's own sub-conscious guilt feelings then, may be, these childish cures work in such cases. But when the afflictions are more drastic or serious then such cures may not work and one will have to suffer the ailment till the bad effects of one's past karmas get nullified by the suffering.

Proposing bhoota, pisAca, etc., and also pitru sApam are simply labels to the type/kind of suffering/affliction.

 

[Raji Ram]

People might not curse their own descendants but some do black magic for the down fall of their relatives!

The 'grinding of chillies' is a way of prayer in MAsaNi amman temple in our village, which is now very popular!

"Merchants meeting loss in their business, people hassled by enemies, women or men who lost their belongings

take bath, sport holy ashes of the shrine, grind red chillies in stone grinder of the temple, smear the paste on the

stone of Justice called ‘Neethi Kal’!"

Read more here

As Sangom Sir has pointed out, all these are ONLY beliefs!

 

[renuka]

I was just thinking that astrology would have started off as science of interpreting our on going Karma.

It is like how when we are sick we send our blood for analysis to know what is the causative factor.

So astrology is also a diagnostic tool but I feel Pariharams got into the way much later and commercialized the whole scene.

Since Karma has to be endured nothing really can be done..Pariharams and rituals are just ways to divert the mind.

I know a family where every member converted to Christianity cos someone told them that they have some ancestral curse and if they change religion all problems will be solved!

But even after conversion the problems are still there but they keep saying they feel better and life is more peaceful.

They just diverted their mind by spending lots of time in the church.

So basically it is up to us to divert our mind in the best way known to us!

 

[Raji Ram]

........... I know a family where every member converted to Christianity cos someone told them that they have some ancestral curse and if they change religion all problems will be solved!

But even after conversion the problems are still there but they keep saying they feel better and life is more peaceful........

Dear Renu,

Probably they believe that God is NOT one! They are different in different religions.
The ancestors might be scared to harm the converted descendants!! :scared:

P.S: May be they can read the new thread started by you!

 

[Raji Ram]

I do not want to start a new thread for this Q. It is 'Can the fetus curse its parents?'

Why I am asking this is because three of my close friends who aborted the third child have problems with the

son / daughter born earlier. Does the fetus curse the parents to have unhappy life later on?

 

[kgopalan]

fetus will never curse . it will never do harm.

 

[sangom]

I do not want to start a new thread for this Q. It is 'Can the fetus curse its parents?'

Why I am asking this is because three of my close friends who aborted the third child have problems with the

son / daughter born earlier. Does the fetus curse the parents to have unhappy life later on?

Foetus by itself may not be able to curse, but those parents who had a way of experiencing the results of their past Karmas with three children stopped that and as a consequence, they have now to face the problems with the senior child. We should never attempt aborting a foetus though using prevention methods (condom, loop, pills, etc.) will be OK from the Karma pov. Just my view only pl.