Yes, nobody can claim to be the keeper of the truth. But I believe debates can clarify and illuminate facts, and for this reason alone debate, even when not followed by tangible action, is not a useless waste of time.... The seminal question here is not about what is 'right', because what is 'right' in a social context is about evolving civilization. What is wrong today was not wrong in the past in terms of soc ial acceptance.
Yes, I don't see any point in adding to the burden and unhappiness of people already caught in their own circumstance with no possibility of escape. But, when we talk about the past, the antecedents of our present, a worthy objective I see is owning up responsibility, if not guilt. Only when we refuse responsibility we become guilty, IMO.If I remember right, your response was that you did not hurt your elders; feelings.
I think it is not a question of feeling ashamed but only an effort to reiterate that there were historical reasons, very valid at that, for the dislike for brahmins. This becomes necessary at times because many Bs still like to take the view that it was in the past, we were not doing it, etc., but stop short of really giving a signal to the NBs that we are a genuinely changed lot. This creates a curious situation; towards the NBs we still feel that we are somehow superior to them because of the 'glorious' deeds of our ancestors, while, to anyone pointing out that what they feel glorious, was not so creditable after all, they try to take cover under the very argument of yours, viz., that we were not responsible.Dear Professor Nara Ji,
I agree with you. Yes, we can and should reject past ideas / practices that do not fit for life today. But my point is that the human society progresses each day and there is no need to look back in shame, applying today's norms to yester yerar's societal norms.
This is not clear to me. If one is to be judged and treated by others on one's own merit, how will his admitting the wrong deeds of his ancestors decrease his worth? On the contrary, will it not enhance his fairmindedness in other's views? Further, we are not trying to "demonize" our ancestors, but if what they did or believed was such, how can it be helped? For example, will anyone today say that the aztecs were a very kind-hearted people?I am a firm believer in the dictum that one should be judged and treated by others on one's own merit as a full human being today. He/She should not pay for the past 'sins' committed by his/her forefathers. When we demonize our ancestors based on today's standards, we do a disservice to our own selves.
How one takes to a debate decides whether one goes into a defensive mode; obviously both sides will have to defend their respective standpoints and the one who is weaker in arguments and/or supporting evidence will feel that he is on the defensive. If one cannot debate further on strong supporting grounds, one has to magnanimously concede defeat to the victor, but still in today's debates we don't require the vanquished to become the victor's slave or sishya as is narrated in our religious history. If you feel that the weaker party in a debate has to be given some sort of psychological help so that his ego does not get hurt etc., I think such weak-minded people with bloated egos should not enter into a debate first of all.Debates will only change hearts if one is not put in a defensive mode, based on one's emotional grasp to the past to define oneself. Lots of times, the progressives seem to forget this, wanting to eradicate all evil at one go.
This is to the folks who have responded to my posting:
There are many folks here who attach vedic or other sayings at the end of their messages. I was only referring to those who were, in my opinion, said and did things contrary to those messages. If you think that I unfairly made my comment about you, I can only say that please look at your reaction. If you were acting in a way that did not fit my description, then why fret?
I did not mean to say what I said to hurt anyone's feelings. I gave examples to highlight our problems as a community. If you can show me that I am wrong in my assessment with concrete examples, I will stand corrected and apologize.
But the emotional outbursts I see here are just that - emotional.
Regards,
KRS
Sri KRS,
I have absolutely no problem even if I am criticized.
I always welcome constructive criticisms.
All the best
.... I was only referring to those who were, in my opinion, said and did things contrary to those messages. If you think that I unfairly made my comment about you, I can only say that please look at your reaction. If you were acting in a way that did not fit my description, then why fret?
Dear Sri RVR Ji,
I said what I said to illustrate a point. My intention was to give examples on why as a community we do not seem to get united as well as why 'self moderation' is not effective.
Thank you for your response, but my intention was not to crticize anyone in particular.
Regards,
KRS
I think it is not a question of feeling ashamed but only an effort to reiterate that there were historical reasons, very valid at that, for the dislike for brahmins. This becomes necessary at times because many Bs still like to take the view that it was in the past, we were not doing it, etc., but stop short of really giving a signal to the NBs that we are a genuinely changed lot. This creates a curious situation; towards the NBs we still feel that we are somehow superior to them because of the 'glorious' deeds of our ancestors, while, to anyone pointing out that what they feel glorious, was not so creditable after all, they try to take cover under the very argument of yours, viz., that we were not responsible.
The problem with your argument is this. When one says that as a person born in to a Brahmin family I need to take 'ownership' of how anyone else is treated in the past, it perpetuates the issue. History is full of deeds by many, that we would consider as cruel today, by today's standards. I do not feel superior to any other human being, period. If some others feel that way, then, please do not include me in that category. Our community, as a whole has changed and is still changing in our attitudes. It surely will change completely over time. So what is the need for me to take ownership of the past, to do what? Apologize?
This is not clear to me. If one is to be judged and treated by others on one's own merit, how will his admitting the wrong deeds of his ancestors decrease his worth? On the contrary, will it not enhance his fairmindedness in other's views? Further, we are not trying to "demonize" our ancestors, but if what they did or believed was such, how can it be helped? For example, will anyone today say that the aztecs were a very kind-hearted people?
I can only control what I am today. I have no control over what my ancestors did or did not do. There are many reasons why the TN NBs do not seem to like our community in general. But as I have said, if each one of us live by today's mores, then there would not be any issues. No need to explain the past and apologize for it. Apologizing for the past but not changing the behaviour is worse.
How one takes to a debate decides whether one goes into a defensive mode; obviously both sides will have to defend their respective standpoints and the one who is weaker in arguments and/or supporting evidence will feel that he is on the defensive. If one cannot debate further on strong supporting grounds, one has to magnanimously concede defeat to the victor, but still in today's debates we don't require the vanquished to become the victor's slave or sishya as is narrated in our religious history. If you feel that the weaker party in a debate has to be given some sort of psychological help s Noneo that his ego does not get hurt etc., I think such weak-minded people with bloated egos should not enter into a debate first of all.
Vow! On one hand you seem to appreciate today's treatment of the vanquished, but then on the other you show no mercy. Actually, 'debate' is not the correct word to use here. Debate requires knowledge and skill. What we are doing here can be more aptly termed as bantering. No human being is without the emotional part.
Dear Prof.,Shri sangom has given a wonderful response to your post addressed to me, he has put in words my thoughts much better than I ever can.
When a criticism is offered without naming anyone, then, the tendency is for everyone to wonder whether he/she is the intended target. For example, there are two statements that are regularly made in this form,
- there are some here who want to promote their hidden agenda, and
- there are people here who want to show off their knowledge.
I think in the name of being decent they are unconsciously fouling the atmosphere.The writer obviously has somebody in mind, but the statement is so vague it could be taken by anyone to mean him/her, developing ill feeling towards the poster. It muddies the water and does not promote anything positive.
Actually I felt it was directed at me, at my audacity in correcting the rik wrongly posted by another learned member especially since it immediately followed mine.Let me give a concrete example, Raju stated earlier in this very thread quite pithily, "நிறை குடம் தளும்பும். குறை குடமோ கூத்தாடும்." From the interactions we have had, I think this was a dart sent towards yours truly. By not stating it outright I am imagining, rightly or wrongly, that everyone must have gotten the message, but Raju can still maintain, why do you fret unless you think of yourself as one?
I second this with all the force at my command.I think deliberately veiled criticisms need to be avoided as much as possible -- they insert unnecessary ill feelings that don't get aired and sorted out, low-grade conflicts continue, unresolved misunderstandings persist -- not good for our own peace of mind and that of our forum.
I have a permanent quote from Rig Vedha at the end of my postings.
Let me try to understand the meaning of the quote from Rig Vedha
All the best
Dear Suryakasyapa,Even pretense is a starting point. It is a trigger for full search and find. ...
How many people who shout looking at sky know the meaning of the revolutionary word" Inquilab Zindabad" daily heard in Kerala,West Bengal etc.
How many people know in which language it is? Or for that matter the word commonly used by communists to denote their " class enemies" the bourgeois" ? The followers strongly believe the leader,and repeat what is yelled by him. It is just that. May be a few in them may venture to learn further.
...Nobody expected it to know the full meaning. A little innocent gesticulation, a similar sounding repetition ....were all that was needed to entertain the adults around, and make the parents feel proud. But the same child would have learnt the meaning after sometime.....prodded either by chiding adults or encouraging others..or by its own thirst for fullness..
Nobody is talking here about apologising though such a step at a crucial juncture in the not-so-long past by the TB representatives would have been timely. It seems to me that your statement covers people (TBs) who want to cling on to (you used the word "grasp") their past glory without being held accountable for the past mistakes as well. That exactly is the problem. You say they will change completely over time; time is a great leveller, of course and it has worked now and will work always but what we are trying to see is that we TBs do not lose what little foothold we have now and end up simply as diaspora only.The problem with your argument is this. When one says that as a person born in to a Brahmin family I need to take 'ownership' of how anyone else is treated in the past, it perpetuates the issue. History is full of deeds by many, that we would consider as cruel today, by today's standards. I do not feel superior to any other human being, period. If some others feel that way, then, please do not include me in that category. Our community, as a whole has changed and is still changing in our attitudes. It surely will change completely over time. So what is the need for me to take ownership of the past, to do what? Apologize?
I find that tacitly you agree that there is not going to be any change in behaviour. If so since everyone is living by the mores of the times, there should be no problem at all, as you seem to think. But is this the truth? How many TBs, even in this forum, will admit it?I can only control what I am today. I have no control over what my ancestors did or did not do. There are many reasons why the TN NBs do not seem to like our community in general. But as I have said, if each one of us live by today's mores, then there would not be any issues. No need to explain the past and apologize for it. Apologizing for the past but not changing the behaviour is worse.
I am giving my post as well as yours for ready reference. I would like to know where I show no mercy. Is it that the vanquished should be accepted as having won the debate? or, is it your opinion that people with bloated egos will come, debate and then should be allowed to get away with their views intact? And, far from being a good debater you suddenly try to cast aspersion on my debating ability saying that I don't have knowledge and skill. If you really feel so please say so directly instead of resorting to such indirect tactics.How one takes to a debate decides whether one goes into a defensive mode; obviously both sides will have to defend their respective standpoints and the one who is weaker in arguments and/or supporting evidence will feel that he is on the defensive. If one cannot debate further on strong supporting grounds, one has to magnanimously concede defeat to the victor, but still in today's debates we don't require the vanquished to become the victor's slave or sishya as is narrated in our religious history. If you feel that the weaker party in a debate has to be given some sort of psychological help s Noneo that his ego does not get hurt etc., I think such weak-minded people with bloated egos should not enter into a debate first of all.
Vow! On one hand you seem to appreciate today's treatment of the vanquished, but then on the other you show no mercy. Actually, 'debate' is not the correct word to use here. Debate requires knowledge and skill. What we are doing here can be more aptly termed as bantering. No human being is without the emotional part.
Our community, as a whole has changed and is still changing in our attitudes. It surely will change completely over time. So what is the need for me to take ownership of the past, to do what? Apologize?
Nobody is talking here about apologising though such a step at a crucial juncture in the not-so-long past by the TB representatives would have been timely. It seems to me that your statement covers people (TBs) who want to cling on to (you used the word "grasp") their past glory without being held accountable for the past mistakes as well. That exactly is the problem. You say they will change completely over time; time is a great leveller, of course and it has worked now and will work always but what we are trying to see is that we TBs do not lose what little foothold we have now and end up simply as diaspora only.
Again, if some take pride in past glory and still think that they are suprior, then as I have said, those will not change. But today's mores stem from a changing world culture and if one does not adapt and change then one will have to face the consequences. But, I do not want to be judged on the basis of my skin color or religion or culture but solely by the force of my character.
I find that tacitly you agree that there is not going to be any change in behaviour. If so since everyone is living by the mores of the times, there should be no problem at all, as you seem to think. But is this the truth? How many TBs, even in this forum, will admit it?
Sir, some change rapidly, others do not need any changes as they are inherently born as humanists and others for whatever reason (security, habit, fear, non reflective etc.) will not change in their lifetimes. Calling them on their behaviour in public is not going to make any difference. But over time, their progenies will change.
I am giving my post as well as yours for ready reference. I would like to know where I show no mercy. Is it that the vanquished should be accepted as having won the debate? or, is it your opinion that people with bloated egos will come, debate and then should be allowed to get away with their views intact? And, far from being a good debater you suddenly try to cast aspersion on my debating ability saying that I don't have knowledge and skill. If you really feel so please say so directly instead of resorting to such indirect tactics.
Regarding showing no mercy, I was referring to your words on asking some folks who do not meet certain conditions not to debate at all. It was done as a tongue in cheek remark. I explained at the start of this response about your last comment above. Hope this explains.
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Dear Shri KRS, Greetings!
I am not so sanguine about the changing attitude of "our community". The change they have embraced are all motivated by material and selfish considerations in the most part. For example, nobody thinks twice about transgressing the injunction against skipping nithya or naimithika karma anushtanam for the sake of personal convenience, and nobody thinks twice about setting aside the ban on crossing oceans for the sake of money. These changes in attitude are motivated by personal gain.
Perhaps your assumptions on the reasons are correct. And if so, what? I believe that the humanism movement essentially rose out of profit motive as the 'rulers' generally understood that they gained from healthy and happy masses.
True change in attitude, the kind emphasized by Thiruvalluvar's பிறப்பொக்கும் எல்லாவுயிர்க்கும், is quite rare. It is slowly taking root among the youngsters, and it is scarring the bezeeses out of the older generation. The attitude shown for icm marriages in this forum and the informal survey of Thiruvanandhapuram participants of Naveena Swayamvaram reported by RVR show this.
Yes, I agree. My only point is that flogging those who do not want to change in public, is not going to result in a change of attitude/behaviour.
I don't think that this is about individual Brahmins feeling guilty or apologizing, even though that wouldn't be a bad thing if each Brahmin does it, in the inner most chamber of their conscience where insincerity and dishonesty cannot enter. It is about fact based understanding of the oppressive way in which the society was organized. The effects of this past oppression is still pervasive, and, further, a lot of the oppression is still being practiced.
But today, it is much much less than how it was in the past. Even in my lifetime I have seen the changes. The anti discrimination laws should be enforced vigorously, on blatant violations of these laws. But the inherent discrimination will take a few generations to go away as the current mores of the society constantly reinforce the values that prevail.
So, in this environment, a formal recognition of the suffering of the oppressed and an offering of collective apology for the past wrongs is not an onerous burden on the descendants of the privileged. This is not a novel idea. The US Congress did it for past slavery, unanimously I might add. US government apologized for the internment of Japanese Americans during WWII and was signed by the doyen of US conservatives, President Ronald Reagan. The government even paid reparations totaling $1.6 billion to those who suffered including to some descendants in cases where the ones who suffered were dead.
As I have said, I do not at all feel responsible / accountable for the actions of my fore fathers. I did not approve and I still do not agree with the actions of those who apologiza and give reparations for past actions. These actions create a victim mentality that perpetuates the issue, in my opinion. As long as the non-discriminatory laws are passed and enforced, to me that is enough.
I agree that an apology offered with insincerely is in some sense worse than the crime itself, might as well not offer it. But I am not talking about apology at all. All I am arguing for is jettisoning this exaggerated grand vision of Brahminism as a gift to humanity, when in fact it was institutionalized oppression and exploitation.
Well, one has to admit that the Brahmin Varna was created to serve others and to be the custodians of the welfare of others in the society. I reject the idea that a minority of people manged to create such a exploitive position in the society, with the ready acceptance of the majority of the populace. This does not make sense to me. Over time, in my opinion, Varna became Jaathi by birth and just because this happened, I do not want to throw away all the good my forefathers also did. Yes, I do not agree with the Jaathi system as devised, but then that does not mean that all my forefathers did all wrong all the time.
Let Brahmins apologize if they want to, if that will make them feel better. If done sincerely, it will do the Brahmins more good than the Dalits. But, what is important is for the Brahmins to develop a fact based understanding of the past and fashion their present-day outlook based on that understanding. If they do that, I think, at the very least, they will stop whining about the reservation in education system.
I do not agree with any reservation/quota system. The way to help the oppressed is to equip them with all the tools necessary to compete with everyone on a level playing field. One can not achieve this by punishing a whole clan for the past supposed sins of all their forefathers in the past, nor by not instituting the habits of success to the past oppressed in the modern world. Again, as we have seen, quota system has not produced the success in uplifting these communities. Because of this system, everyone feels victimized and the cycle continues as more and more people expecting hand outs.
The present Federal Government in India is on a program to uplift the education at the lower levels (elementary and high schools), which is quite belated in my opinion. Instead of creating a quota system, if they had allocated money for education at lower levels (admittedly hard to do for a poor country), by now we would not be witnessing the continued issues with some segments of the society. But instead they willy nilly on emotion created the quota system.
As for debates, we can't have a mere disagreement taken as an assault on a person's integrity. We can't have people feeling defensive at the drop of a reasoned and cogent argument. How do you then drive home a point without upsetting the fragile but inflated self-esteem that drives these sensitive tortoises into their defensive but obstinate shells?
Yes, some folks are too sensitive and get easily hurt. But then, I do not agree that any topic under the Sun could be discussed. For example, I would not want to discuss about the parents and Gurus of a person. There are some sacred areas which should be left alone. But again, this differs from person to person, but I would hope all of us at least know those sacred areas so that we do not intrude.
What Shri sangom says is, in an earlier time, if the glowing hagiographies are to be believed, at the end of a debate, the one whose arguments prevailed gets recognized as such. The person running out of arguments admits it honestly and even joins the person with stronger arguments.
But here, you get to be called names.
Yes, calling names is the last action of those who can not argur further on points and so feel hurt and humiliated.
Cheers!
Thanks Sri KRS,
It is very difficult to unite any community and our community is no exception to that rule.
Let us all try to do some thing to the poorer sections of our community. At least on this single point I hope majority of us here will be united . If we do that then it will make lot of difference in the life of such people.
Let us support on educating poorest of our boys. Let us do timely help for medication of our elders. If we do these two, the forum will be noticed by all the members of our community.
I am sure you will agree with me on the above.
All the best
Yes, I agree, truly personal matters must be off limits, like the person himself/herself, family members, etc. But guru/acharya, in as much as they are public figures, must not be off limits. I know what you are getting at. Sai Baba is a controversial figure, there are many for whom he is no less than God, and there are others for whom he is no more than a charlatan. But, in as much as he is a public figure he must not be automatically exempt from criticism. People for whom he is God, must either put up valid arguments or endure the criticism. The same must be true for Sankarachariyar, or Azhagiya Singar, or Andavan. One cannot hide behind long standing tradition to exempt them.But then, I do not agree that any topic under the Sun could be discussed. For example, I would not want to discuss about the parents and Gurus of a person.