Dr. B.R. Ambedkar

[Nara]

Share:

Facebook X (Twitter) LinkedIn WhatsApp Email Share Link

Ancestral calling

Gandhi: “The law of Varna teaches us that we have each one of us to earn our bread by following the ancestral calling. It defines not our rights but our duties.”

BRA:
When can a calling be deemed to have become an ancestral calling, so as to make it binding on a man? Must a man follow his ancestral calling even if it does not suit his capacities, even when it has ceased to be profitable? Must a man live by his ancestral calling even if he finds it to be immoral? If everyone must pursue his ancestral calling, then it must follow that a man must continue to be a pimp because his grandfather was a pimp, and a woman must continue to be a prostitute because her grandmother was a prostitute. Is the Mahatma prepared to accept the logical conclusion of his doctrine? To me his ideal of following one's ancestral calling is not only an impossible and impractical ideal, but it is also morally an indefensible ideal.

Why does the Mahatma cling to the theory of everyone following his or her ancestral calling? He gives his reasons nowhere.

Everybody wants social stability, and some adjustment must be made in the relationship between individuals and classes in order that stability may be had. But two things, I am sure, nobody wants are (i) a static relationship, something that is unalterable, something that is fixed for all times, and (ii) mere adjustment without social justice.

Can it be said that the adjustment of social relationships on the basis of caste—i.e,. on the basis of each to his hereditary calling—avoids these two evils? I am convinced that it does not. Far from being the best possible adjustment, I have no doubt that it is of the worst possible kind, inasmuch as it offends against both the canons of social adjustment—namely, fluidity and equity.

 

[SALEM]

To Nara sir, Ambedkar was convered harijans to Buddisham and some were around 1975 t0 80 in tamilnadu 1 lack dhaliths mass conversion to budisham along with M,Varatharajanar, he is the person who spoiled indian Law because he wanted the only leader for dhaliths and he openly criticized Mahatama Gandhi, who supported Harijans. Nehru and BRA the master mind for assassinateof? s.rk.

 

[nachi naga]

the time of Mahathma Gandhi came,and to be immortalised as a martyr,so an untimely bullet and an unnatural death.hindu fanatics,nathuram godse was used to do this diabolical assasination.bra was more concerned about equitable treatment of people,if that can be used within the scope of scriptures,bra would be happy.as for converting to buddhism,he has become a shunya,which was only outwardly show projected by bra,at heart he was always a sanathana dharma practioner.as bhagavan osho has said,he was an idiot who could not take the fight with mahathma gandhi with a fast,as tit for tat.at that time by hook or by crook,the british christian domination and occupation was the goal.the british christian left no doubt,but the domination is so subtle,we have to be subtler further to detect it,via special relationship with usa,which is,even though an independent nation,but still a domain of King & Queen Of England,on a piece of paper.

 

[SALEM]

To All: the word dalith is from Marthi means suppress(the slave-trade), today in TN we the TBs become Daliths, made by Dravidan parties. since the Dravidan partys headed by mostly Telugus,Malayalies,and Kannadigas. eg: Pitty Thayagarajan, EVR, DrNair, Panagal Raja, Prakasam, and so on, how we will fight against this evil partys is the big? mark. Some one come farword to uplift the TB's. s.r.k.

 

[Nara]

BRA's response to Gandhi continues (edited).....


Some might think that the Mahatma has made much progress, inasmuch as he now only believes in Varna and does not believe in Caste. It is true that there was a time when he believed in Caste, and defended it with the vigour of the orthodox. He condemned the cry for inter-dining, inter-drinking, and inter-marrying, and argued that restraints about inter-dining to a great extent "helped the cultivation of will-power and the conservation of a certain social virtue."

It is good that he has repudiated this sanctimonious nonsense and admitted that Caste "is harmful both to spiritual and national growth....."

But has the Mahatma really progressed?

What is the nature of the Varna for which the Mahatma stands? Is it the Vedic conception as commonly understood and preached by Swami Dayanand Saraswati and his followers, the Arya Samajists?

The essence of the Vedic conception of Varna is the pursuit of a calling which is appropriate to one's natural aptitude. The essence of the Mahatma's conception of Varna is the pursuit of one's ancestral calling, irrespective of natural aptitude. What is the difference between Caste and Varna, as understood by the Mahatma? I find none. As defined by the Mahatma, Varna becomes merely a different name for Caste, for the simple reason that it is the same in essence—namely, pursuit of one's ancestral calling.

Far from making progress, the Mahatma has suffered retrogression. By putting this interpretation upon the Vedic conception of Varna, he has really made ridiculous what was sublime.

While I reject the Vedic Varnavyavastha for reasons given in the speech, I must admit that the Vedic theory of Varna as interpreted by Swami Dayanand and some others is a sensible and an inoffensive thing. It did not admit birth as a determining factor in fixing the place of an individual in society. It only recognized worth.

The Mahatma's view of Varna not only makes nonsense of the Vedic Varna, but it makes it an abominable thing. If the Mahatma believes, as he does, in everyone following his or her ancestral calling, then most certainly he is advocating the Caste System, and in calling it the Varna System he is not only guilty of terminological inexactitude, but he is causing confusion worse confounded.

I am sure that all his confusion is due to the fact that the Mahatma has no definite and clear conception as to what is Varna and what is Caste, and as to the necessity of either for the conservation of Hinduism. He has said—and one hopes that he will not find some mystic reason to change his view—that Caste is not the essence of Hinduism. Does he regard Varna as the essence of Hinduism? One cannot as yet give any categorical answer.

 

[Nara]

... the word dalith is from Marthi means suppress(the slave-trade), today in TN we the TBs become Daliths, made by Dravidan parties.

SALEM, Could you please elaborate on this a little more? On what basis do you think TBs have become Dalits in TN? From what I have observed, TBs experience discrimination only by the reservation system. Even in this area, it is only the poor TBs who are really affected. What areas of systematic oppression against TBs am I overlooking?

s.r.k.

Are you a different s.r.k. or the same as [email protected], just curious.

 

[[email protected]]

To Prof Nara sir : I just expl that the marthi word and the TBs sufferings not only under Reservations but also other means, the law made by BRA is just a carbon copy of Englands unwritten law.He was not added or modified it,just to get a ministieral berth under Nehru.He made Indian Flag and symbles as Buddish because he converted to that,so our contry is a buddish,in TN is Vaishnava, The srk is old wine in new bottle. s.r.k.

 

[Nara]

BRA's rebuttal of Gandhi's response continues ....

(Just one more and it is over)

=====

The Mahatma says that the standards I have applied to test Hindus and Hinduism are too severe, and that judged by those standards every known living faith will probably fail. But the question is not whether they are high or whether they are low. The question is whether they are the right standards to apply. A people and their Religion must be judged by social standards based on social ethics. No other standard would have any meaning, if Religion is held to be a necessary good for the well-being of the people.

Now, I maintain that the standards I have applied to test Hindus and Hinduism are the most appropriate standards, and that I know of none that are better. The conclusion that every known religion would fail if tested by my standards may be true. But this fact should not give the Mahatma as the champion of Hindus and Hinduism a ground for comfort, any more than the existence of one madman should give comfort to another madman, or the existence of one criminal should give comfort to another criminal.

I would like to assure the Mahatma that it is not the mere failure of the Hindus and Hinduism which has produced in me the feelings of disgust and contempt with which I am filled. I realize that the world is a very imperfect world, and anyone who wants to live in it must bear with its imperfections.

But while I am prepared to bear with the imperfections and shortcomings of the society in which I may be destined to labour, I feel I should not consent to live in a society which cherishes wrong ideals, or a society which, having right ideals, will not consent to bring its social life into conformity with those ideals. If I am disgusted with Hindus and Hinduism, it is because I am convinced that they cherish wrong ideals and live a wrong social life. My quarrel with Hindus and Hinduism is not over the imperfections of their social conduct. It is much more fundamental. It is over their ideals.

The leaders unblushingly appeal to ideals of the past which have in every way ceased to have any connection with the present—ideals which, however suitable they might have been in the days of their origin, have now become a warning rather than a guide. They still have a mystic respect for the earlier forms which makes them disinclined—nay, opposed—to any examination of the foundations of their Society. The Hindu masses are of course incredibly heedless in the formation of their beliefs. But so are the Hindu leaders. And what is worse is that these Hindu leaders become filled with an illicit passion for their beliefs when anyone proposes to rob them of their beliefs' companionship.

 

[Dr.T.N.Jambunathan]

Not able toopen any link to any of the threads posted

 

[Nara]

Hello folks, I must have made a mistake, the last post is not in the thread. So, here it is, the concluding section of BRA's response to Gandhi's criticism.

=======
The Mahatma appears not to believe in thinking. He prefers to follow the saints. Unlike the Mahatma, there are Hindu leaders who are not content merely to believe and follow. They dare to think, and act in accordance with the result of their thinking. But unfortunately they are either a dishonest lot, or an indifferent lot when it comes to the question of giving right guidance to the mass of the people.

Almost every Brahmin has transgressed the rule of Caste. The number of Brahmins who sell shoes is far greater than those who practise priesthood. Not only have the Brahmins given up their ancestral calling of priesthood for trading, but they have entered trades which are prohibited to them by the Shastras. Yet how many Brahmins who break Caste every day will preach against Caste and against the Shastras?

For one honest Brahmin preaching against Caste and Shastras because his practical instinct and moral conscience cannot support a conviction in them, there are hundreds who break Caste and trample upon the Shastras every day, but who are the most fanatic upholders of the theory of Caste and the sanctity of the Shastras. Why this duplicity? Because they feel that if the masses are emancipated from the yoke of Caste, they would be a menace to the power and prestige of the Brahmins as a class. The dishonesty of this intellectual class, who would deny the masses the fruits of their [=the Brahmins'] thinking, is a most disgraceful phenomenon.

The Hindus, in the words of Matthew Arnold, are "wandering between two worlds, one dead, the other powerless to be born." What are they to do? The Mahatma to whom they appeal for guidance does not believe in thinking, and can therefore give no guidance which can be said to stand the test of experience. The intellectual classes to whom the masses look for guidance are either too dishonest or too indifferent to educate them in the right direction. We are indeed witnesses to a great tragedy. In the face of this tragedy all one can do is to lament and say—such are thy Leaders, O Hindus!

=====

What BRA said more than 70 years ago is still true, where are these leaders of Hindus who can deliver them from the morass the Hindu elders see in their youngsters? All the blame cannot be laid at the feet of orthodox religious leaders. The Hindu intellectuals from the ranks of the laity have let down the Hindu masses very badly by simply ignoring the caste issue or, offering lame justification for it as in the case of Cho.

The points BRA raised still remain unanswered. Unless attention is paid to them, the great sanatana dharma will go by the same way a great many religions have gone in the past, which is not necessarily a bad thing.

BRA's points summarized:

1. Caste has ruined the Hindus;
2. The reorganization of the Hindu Society on the basis of Chaturvarnya is impossible because the Varnavyavastha has an inherent tendency to degenerate into a Caste System.
3. Chaturvarnya is harmful, because the effect would be to degrade the masses by denying them opportunity to acquire knowledge, and to emasculate them by denying them the right to be armed;
4. The Hindu Society must be reorganized on a religious basis which would recognise the principles of Liberty, Equality and Fraternity;
5. In order to achieve this object the sense of religious sanctity behind Caste and Varna must be destroyed;
6. The sanctity of Caste and Varna can be destroyed only by discarding the divine authority of the Shastras.

 

[happyhindu]

Dear sir,

Thank you very much for this thought provoking thread. Before i proceed to post my views, I would like put forth an equally thought-provoking observations:

from the 1901 Census

Brahman missions alone could have accomplished little this way, if occupational differences had not already divided the people to the advantage of some and prejudice of others. Human nature has been much the same, I fancy, from the beginning of time; and there is no case, on record, of a man in the full enjoyment of his senses allowing himself to be persuaded into accepting an inferior-'social position for himself and his descendants through eternity. This conceded, it is easy to understand and appreciate the change that is coming over the spirit of the dream. With the (establishment of the rule of a race of people, who, neither by instinct nor by prudential considerations, could be brought to think tenderly of caste distinctions, the system of social division, which, however, satisfactory to the highest castes, must have always been galling to the many lumped together as inferiors, was bound to receive a shock. And the disturbance, that was begun by the mere advent into our midst of the British in a position of supreme political power, is being continued, and in a way perfected, by their justice and education both alike caste-blind. Much of the awe and veneration, in which the highest castes were held by the lower of old, was due partly to all learning being confined to the former and partly to the special political privileges, which hedged them round. The same offence met with different punishments in different orders of society. Now, the advantages of education are open alike to the Brahman and the Dhedh, and both are amenable to the same law. Even Sankaracharya, whose influence with vast sections of the Hindus is undoubted, is not free to issue his bulls of excommunication without sufficient excuse. And the unclean Pariah, particularly in Cities and Towns, knows that he has as much right to walk the King's Highways as the boastful Brahman, who, in the older days, and still in far off village nooks and corners, could not brook his treading the same ground within a measurable distance. More than all, wealth is a very potent factor, both in the way of levelling down caste heights and filling up social depths. A high caste man may have objections to publicly dine with a Pariah, however wealthy; but he realises the latter's importance as acitisen sufficiently clearly to accord him all possible respect. As a matter of fact, a wealthy member of the Dhedh caste is actually the Dharmakartha of a Siva temple in Southern India. And the non-descript classes, who hover round the borders, so to say, of the various castes, when they happen to have acquired some wealth, are constantly tempting unwary members of tho respectable to form marriage alliances ; and when they succeed their respectability advances. Caste pride might protest with all its might, and even out-caste those, who have, in any way, sought to lower it or drag it through the mire. But all this is only for a time. Blood is thicker than water, and, sooner or later, out of such alliances a commingling of castes ensues. This kind of caste obliteration or elevation occurs in another way also. It is said that it takes three generations to make a gentleman. It takes, sometimes, much less time for a man of a dubious social status to become one of a recognised respectability. A Sathani becomes elevated into a Balija often in the course of a few years ; so also a Palli; into a Mudeliar. Only the man must have enough money to silence caste criticism, or smother caste ridicule. From all this, however, it is not to be supposed, that the destruction of the caste system is impending. On the other hand, it is the opinion of many, who have paid any attention to the subject, that it is likely to have a long lease of life yet. Its bonds may seem very weak often; it may not assert itself often times ; it may not be very particular as to which new race or tribe it takes under the shelter of its capacious wings. But in its seeming weakness, its elasticity, lies its strength. As has already been stated, the Aryanity of the Southern Indian Brahmins is very doubtful. But they out-Aryan the Aryan priesthood in practice. The will not permit the existence amongst them, or beside them, of any castes like the Navaaakha of Northern India. They will not take water from any one lower than themselves. This spirit of proud, rigorous exclusiveness characteristic of the renegade, and the man, who is not sure of his own position in a society permeates every caste unit. There is none so loud in protestation against the elevation of inferiors, or so anxious to keep them down, as he, who, after years of struggle, has cured a foot hold in a stratum of society, to which he, in his heart hearts, feels he does not belong. For instance, in the South of India, those most concerned in denying the Shanara the right of entrance into Hindu Temples are the Marawara, whose title itself to be called Hindus it is not easy to recognise, and who, in their physique and practices, carry the most conclusive evidence it is possible to adduce of then aboriginal origin. More recently still, when the Pariahs of Poonamalee. a village near Madras, put forward a claim to the right of spiritual tonsure, those, who opposed it most vehemently, were the Vaishnava classes, not very far removed from them. Further, those who sin against caste rules every day of their lives, are often the very persons, who pretend the most rigid adherence to them, and persecute those, who, less prudent than they, offend more openly.

Though this was written in 1901, more than a 100 years back, how true it has been since the years...

contd..

 

[happyhindu]

This is another post I wish to make before putting forth my views. It is the case study of Shanans from the same Census report in connection with the riots of June 1899 between Shanans and Marawars (i cud not help smiling abt the Shanans' Cash part - imagine making coins to build a caste case!!):

Shanans..…by their claims to be Kshatriyas and to enter the Hindu temples. The Shanans were the first to resort to violence, attacking the Maravans' quarters in Sivakasi on the 26th April. In June the Maravans retaliated and 889 Shanans' houses were destroyed in Sivakasi and 1,684 in the district as a whole. Lives were lost 870 persons were arrested and a force of punitive police is still quartered in the district.

The immediate bone of contention on that occasion was the claim of the Shanans to enter the Hindu temples in spite of the rules in the Agama Shastras that toddy-drawers are not to be allowed into them, but the pretensions of the community date back from 1858, when a riot occurred in Travancore because female Christian converts belonging to it gave up the caste practice of going about without an upper cloth. Shortly after that date pamphlets began to be written and published by people of the caste setting out their claims to be kshatriyas.

In 1874 they endeavored to establish a right to enter the great Minakshi temple at Madura, bat failed, and they have since claimed to be allowed to wear the sacred thread, and to have palanquins at their weddiags. They say they are descended from the Cherai Chola and Pandya kings, they have styled themselves Kshatriyas in legal papers, labelled their schools Kshatriya Academy / got Brahmans of the less particular kind to do purohit to work for them, had poems composed on their kingly origin, gone through a sort of incomplete parody of the ceremonv of investiture with the sacred thread, talked much but ignorantly of their gotras, and induced needy persons to sign documents agreeing to carry them in palanquins on festive occasions. Their boldest stroke, however, was to aver that the coins commonly known as 'Shanans' cash ' were struck by sovereign ancestors of the caste. These are Venetian coins often found in the south and they are called ‘Shanans' money ' by the common people merely because they have upon them a cross which looks like a toddy palm.

Referring to court case…..

..their claims chiefly upon etymological derivations of their caste-name Shanan, and of Nadan and Gramani, their two usual titles. .. Begarding the derivation of the words Shanan, Nadan, and Gramani much ingenuity has been exercised. Shanan is not found in the earlier Tamil literature at all. In the inscriptions of Rajaraja Chola (A. D. 984-1018), toddy-drawers are referred to as Huvans. According to Pingalandai a dictionary of the 10th or 11th century, the names of
the toddy-drawers castes are Palaiyar, Tuvasar, and Paduvar. To these the Ckuddmani NihandUf a Tamil dictionary of the 16th century, adds Saundigar.. The title of the caste is Naddan, and it seems more probable that it refers to the fact that the Iluvan ancestors of the caste lived outside the villages (South Indian IfueripHont, Vol. II. Part 1). But even if Nadan and Gramani both mean 'rulers ', it does not give those who bear these titles any claim to be Kshatriyas.

Contd..

 

[Nara]

..those, who opposed it most vehemently, were the Vaishnava classes, contd..

What a shame! More than 1000 years ago it was the SVs who were in the vanguard of social change. Today, they mouth eternal deference to Acharya Parampara, but violate even the most basic of their teachings. If you did not mention the date and change the way Poonamali and a few other words are spelled, no one could tell it was not written yesterday.

Looking forward to more....

Cheers!

 

[happyhindu]

Am summarizing my views here:

• Practicality:

Someone v.close thot I have gone mad to talk about including the " lower castes" into priestly services. I was told ‘see those mala madiga fellows, they are only fit to drink and beat their wives’. Truly enuf, if a man chooses the bottle and its inherent tamasa gunam, has he not preferred his varna himself (I refer to Shri Saidevo’s post on Varna being a preference)? Such a drunkard does not need anyone to define him. He has defined himself. How did BRA expect to accommodate such people into the scale of ‘higher castes’? Is it practical?

• Arya Samaj (AS)

I had no idea BRA thot AS was impractical. His contention against varna system was that an undeserving person is not going to quit the caste he is born into. True. But is quitting Hinduism itself the answer? Does everything about the religion get defined by caste alone? Unfortunately, a pontiff too had mentioned AS in the context of mentioning that it is not possible to create a new class of priests. Today we can only dream of a dialogue b/w the 2 Saraswathis, the founder of AS and the pontiff. But at large, whatever may be the historicity of caste, I certainly do not think preventing a man from sanskritising himself was right (like what the Peshwas did). Every man has every right to improvise on himself on what he thinks is social acceptance of the respectable kind. Preventing a man from doing so (with religious policing) is where I think, lies the problem.


Sorry sir need to go will continue..

 

[Nara]

Hello HH,

How did BRA expect to accommodate such people into the scale of ‘higher castes’? Is it practical?

There are all kinds of people in the world. People behave in many different ways depending on occasion, place, and circumstance. So, I don't think BRA was expecting anyone to be placed in a caste hierarchy at all, he wanted caste system done away with.

• Arya Samaj (AS)

I had no idea BRA thot AS was impractical.

I think BRA was sympathetic to AS, but was of the opinion their attempt to reform Hinduism while retaining the Chaturvarnya system, albeit not based on birth, was doomed to fail. He explained his reasons in detail. I agree with his arguments. The main points in my opinion are these:

• Human condition do not fit neatly within four categories.
• It is not possible to make FCs give up their status voluntarily
• Even if AS succeeds in reforming Chaturvarnya system as one that is not brith based, by its very nature the system will revert back to one that is birth based.

.. Does everything about the religion get defined by caste alone?

As long as Dharmashsthras are given place of veneration caste will remain the defining feature of Hindu religion.

Cheers!

 

[happyhindu]

Originally Posted by Nara
There are all kinds of people in the world. People behave in many different ways depending on occasion, place, and circumstance. So, I don't think BRA was expecting anyone to be placed in a caste hierarchy at all, he wanted caste system done away with.

With due respect to BRA, i think the problem started only when sanskritisation became difficult in practice. So the caste system itself was not to be blamed.

In the 11th and 12th centuries when tribals were converting to brahmins, there was no anti-brahmanism. In the 15th and 16th centuries, brahmins were very much part of the elitist social scene. There was no anti-brahmanism at that time either.

The problem, imo, started in the 18th century, when the British began collating caste data. It tended to bracket people in a fixed caste mold, making caste very publicly known. As long as "silent-sanskritisation" was going on, there was no anti-brahmanism. Once the venues turned difficult, anti-brahmanism started.

Wrt Peshwas, what was their prob if some castes wanted to allow or prohibit widow remarriages (why did they have to interfere in such things). Their unncessary interference, plus the attitude of pouring stuff into the ears of other castes just to show their power, i think, marked the beginning of anti-brahmanism in those regions. No wonder Ambedkar is a Maharashtrian.

The peshwas, are quite a group, i must say. One genetic study found the Chitpavans to be a recent migrant group from the western trade zone, and therefore unrelated to the vedic migrations. In fact, whatever vedic the bulk of them have is recently acquired. Which explains why they did not want others emulating the same scenario to safeguard their position (i refer to the 1901 census that says: There is none so loud in protestation against the elevation of inferiors, or so anxious to keep them down, as he, who, after years of struggle, has cured a foot hold in a stratum of society, to which he, in his heart hearts, feels he does not belong).

The bulk of them it is said, were involved in agriculture until Balaji Vishwanath Bhat happened to them. He pulled up several of them into the social polity scene. And they shone. In colonial india, all that was seemingly required to be listed as brahmin was some social customs, the sacred thread and some orthopraxy which was not tuf to adopt (by new converts). What was mainly required was affiliation to a mutt.

If one were to start looking for origins of mutts, i suppose quite a few wud end up in the colonial period, from the late 17th century onwards. A small group starts a mutt affiliation (which is usually by brahmins proper) but the bulk of them, including enterprising new converts who adopted some orthopraxy, joins it. Imo, if sanskritisation had continued till date, no form of anti-brahmanism wud have ever surfaced.

I think BRA was sympathetic to AS, but was of the opinion their attempt to reform Hinduism while retaining the Chaturvarnya system, albeit not based on birth, was doomed to fail. He explained his reasons in detail. I agree with his arguments. The main points in my opinion are these:

• Human condition do not fit neatly within four categories.
• It is not possible to make FCs give up their status voluntarily
• Even if AS succeeds in reforming Chaturvarnya system as one that is not brith based, by its very nature the system will revert back to one that is birth based.

1) Yes, 4 categories are not enuf (but then the uttara mimansa followers wud say varnas are not linked to occupations).

2) Yes, we cannot expect the underserving amongst the FCs to give up their status, which is why i think, caste has nothing to do with the state of the spirit today. Its a mere symbol of social status, and fodder for ego wars.

3)
I disagree. Each time any religion tries to make one way as the only way, the system fails. We need 2 or more systems acting simultaneously, helping the system to stay in a constant state of flux (like osmosis thru a semipermeable membrane acting like a filter).

As long as sanskritisation keeps happening on one hand, and claims of being birth-based remains on the other hand, there is no prob. When venues for sanskritisation are stopped, then probs crop up. And truly enuf, a dad's character can be passed on to the son, but a son does not inherit the dad's cirumstances. I do not think a man's character depends on his dad's occupation either.

As long as Dharmashsthras are given place of veneration caste will remain the defining feature of Hindu religion.

Cheers!

I think only small portions (the law ones) are inapplicable in the present times. And Wrt to them, i plan to start posting on it to shri saidevo from Jun 2nd week onwards. We will continue more on this then. It wud also answer some points by the poster, WeAreTheFire. Hope that is okay.

Best regards.

 

[Nara]

With due respect to BRA, i think the problem started only when sanskritisation became difficult in practice. So the caste system itself was not to be blamed.

Dear HH,
Sanksritization giving upward mobility hard to establish. If it did, it could not happen overnight, and further, it goes only to show some castes made it to a higher status in the system, not that the system was/is benign.

I also agree that anti-brahmin feeling was not, perhaps could not be, expressed openly.

Sometime back there was a story about a dalit youngman into whose mouth human excreta was forcibly thrusted for the crime of walking with his slippers in the street where caste Hindus lived. In a previous era a Dalit would never have dared walk into the street, let alone with the slippers. But they are not taking it any more and violence ensued.

I saw an interview of both sides on TV. The caste Hinuds asserted they lived with the Dalits in perfect harmony as long as they can remember and these troubles are recent. When the Dalits were asked about it they readily agreed that calm will immediately return if they also are meek and submissive like their forefathers were.

Caste is at the root of all this evil. Its eradication is what people with compassion must aspire. With more education comes understanding of injustice which generates resentment. It will take a while for forget and forgive, but a day will come when these things will be past nightmares. But during the transition period those who stood on top of this heirarchy providing divine justification must face the music, it is a small price to pay compared to what the Dalits paid over centuries and continue to pay as we speak.

...The problem, imo, started in the 18th century, when the British began collating caste data.

The story of Sahmbuka was known to Shankara and Ramanuja, both cite it to deny Vedic study to Shudra. This story is particularly instructive, so is Nandanar, that castes did not live in an idyllic fashion side by side. Dalit's could not live in the villages from a time when there was no magna carta, let alone the East India கும்பினியார்.

The rise of anti-brahminism may have chronological correlation with the time of British in India. But IMO, it is more a case of NBs coming of age so to speak, like the Dalits who refuse to take it any more. Unlike the Muslim rulers, British time lasted only for about 150 years. But, tremendous changes took place during this relatively short period of time. The old norms of social intercourse and balance of power underwent seismic change. Pamela Price, "Ideology and Ethnicity under British Imperial Rule: 'Bramans', Lawyers and Kin-Caste Rules in Madras Presidency", Modern Asian Studies, 23, 1 (1989) pp 151 - 177 gives a fascinating account of this and lays bear the seeds of the Justice Party and the anti-Brahmin feelings.

Such clashes between B and upper NB were not uncommon if the puranas have any kernel of truth in them. But, this time, the upper-caste NBs had EVR with them. He successfully expanded the scope to include anti-Brahminism. Further, he managed to pit TB against everyone else. He owed his success to a large measure on the short-sighted and egotistical stupidity of Brahmins themselves, taking pride in their Sanskrit separateness. Even though the contribution of TBs to Tamil literature is enormous, even though their cultural identity was essentially Tamil, they harbored and still harbor an air of superiority which is why in spite of the general good will among common people there is wide spread support for anti-brahmnisim.


So, IMO, many factors contributed to what many here lament as Brahmin hatred. Yes, signs like Parpanarkal ozhika is bad. But I have seen in my own life time restaurants with sign board, பிராமணர்கள் சாப்பிடும் இடம். We can blame the British for a lot of things, but anti-brahmin and anti-brahminsim is our own making.

Which explains why they did not want others emulating the same scenario to safeguard their position..

This captures the essence of caste system. While upward movement is possible, it did not come easy, it came at the expense of some other group, and safeguarding the hard fought higher status required erecting the wall of separation between layers of castes, as quickly and as firmly as possible.

Cheers!

 

[happyhindu]

Dear HH,
Sanksritization giving upward mobility hard to establish. If it did, it could not happen overnight, and further, it goes only to show some castes made it to a higher status in the system, not that the system was/is benign.

Dear Sir,

Actually am not really comfortable with the term sanskritisation. Its a recent term. It does not take the ancient past into account. Because whatever is there in hinduism is all about indigenous practices that are tribal in origin (some of the old practices are still preseved in the northeastern tribes like the wanchao culture where the tribe is divided into 4 classes. Movement from one class is not uncommon. example: if a commoner displays exemplery strength, he gets a special tatoo and is absorbed into the warrior class..)

Frits Staal explains that the vedic (early sanskrit) speakers came from the northwest, mingled with the indigenous tribes (some matrilineal, some patrilineal). At this point, the native tribes of the sub-continent were already divided based on occupation. The vedas were composed after this. This explains why there are mundari / protomundari, austro-asiatic, tibeto-burman, dravidian, etc substrates / words in the vedas. They cud not have been composed in isolation somewhere in siberia. There was no AIT (atleast not at this point). [please do read the book Discovering the Vedas, its really intersting].

This comingling of native tribes and vedic speakers was in the very remote ancient past, before 10k bc. So to being with, all of us are adi-vasis, ancient dwellers of india. The rigid caste system happened only later. And even until date, there are tribes that adopt some practices and move into a caste (btw, tamil nadu has one of the lowest number of tribes in india, orissa, gujarat and the northeast are high on it. Dravidian speakers are said to have killed off the native mundari men and violated the women. Tamil language too is said to have eschewed the older kolarian / mundari / austro-asiatic groups leaving very little or no mundari substrate in the tamil language.

Wrt the recent inclusion into a caste, it wud be intersting to have a dna surname project based on the sharma / sarma surname amongst southindians, esp those of Kaundinya, Bharadwaja, Kashyapa and Parasara gotras. Let them be compared to samples taken from diff tribes. Lets see how far back they go into sharing the same parentage. I wud suspect it wud be the 11th to the 13th centuries. With the advent of new markers, rapid technology, this and anything else too is possible.Things are also easy to establish based on the more than sufficient historical evidence available.

I do not think the caste system (varna vyavastha) was bad in the past. It must have served the purpose of an organized tribe / settlement well enuf in places where it was follwoed and where it applied. But some cultures did not come under vedic proper at certain points in time...Please read this; this did not come under the vedic proper (sister's sons bcome heirs - in kerala? Bahlika Culture - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia ) - how can one assign a varna to these cultures today?

Even in kuru proper (where all brahmanical orthopraxy was developed), things obviosly changed. They were different at that time, and are not the same today (ex: satyavati who begot vyasa from parashara was from the boatmen / fishermen group, and considered kshatriya then, but today we do not call fishermen and paalkarans (golla milkmen) as kshatriyas). Things changed over time. We are talking of atleast 3000 years back and India has seen a lot more invasions and religious / cultural re-organizations since then.

Its the rigidity of the caste system that does not help.

I also agree that anti-brahmin feeling was not, perhaps could not be, expressed openly.

Sometime back there was a story about a dalit youngman into whose mouth human excreta was forcibly thrusted for the crime of walking with his slippers in the street where caste Hindus lived. In a previous era a Dalit would never have dared walk into the street, let alone with the slippers. But they are not taking it any more and violence ensued.

I saw an interview of both sides on TV. The caste Hinuds asserted they lived with the Dalits in perfect harmony as long as they can remember and these troubles are recent. When the Dalits were asked about it they readily agreed that calm will immediately return if they also are meek and submissive like their forefathers were.

Caste is at the root of all this evil. Its eradication is what people with compassion must aspire. With more education comes understanding of injustice which generates resentment. It will take a while for forget and forgive, but a day will come when these things will be past nightmares. But during the transition period those who stood on top of this heirarchy providing divine justification must face the music, it is a small price to pay compared to what the Dalits paid over centuries and continue to pay as we speak.

The story of Sahmbuka was known to Shankara and Ramanuja, both cite it to deny Vedic study to Shudra. This story is particularly instructive, so is Nandanar, that castes did not live in an idyllic fashion side by side. Dalit's could not live in the villages from a time when there was no magna carta, let alone the East India கும்பினியார்.

The rise of anti-brahminism may have chronological correlation with the time of British in India. But IMO, it is more a case of NBs coming of age so to speak, like the Dalits who refuse to take it any more. Unlike the Muslim rulers, British time lasted only for about 150 years. But, tremendous changes took place during this relatively short period of time. The old norms of social intercourse and balance of power underwent seismic change. Pamela Price, "Ideology and Ethnicity under British Imperial Rule: 'Bramans', Lawyers and Kin-Caste Rules in Madras Presidency", Modern Asian Studies, 23, 1 (1989) pp 151 - 177 gives a fascinating account of this and lays bear the seeds of the Justice Party and the anti-Brahmin feelings.

Such clashes between B and upper NB were not uncommon if the puranas have any kernel of truth in them. But, this time, the upper-caste NBs had EVR with them. He successfully expanded the scope to include anti-Brahminism. Further, he managed to pit TB against everyone else. He owed his success to a large measure on the short-sighted and egotistical stupidity of Brahmins themselves, taking pride in their Sanskrit separateness. Even though the contribution of TBs to Tamil literature is enormous, even though their cultural identity was essentially Tamil, they harbored and still harbor an air of superiority which is why in spite of the general good will among common people there is wide spread support for anti-brahmnisim.

So, IMO, many factors contributed to what many here lament as Brahmin hatred. Yes, signs like Parpanarkal ozhika is bad. But I have seen in my own life time restaurants with sign board, பிராமணர்கள் சாப்பிடும் இடம். We can blame the British for a lot of things, but anti-brahmin and anti-brahminsim is our own making.

This captures the essence of caste system. While upward movement is possible, it did not come easy, it came at the expense of some other group, and safeguarding the hard fought higher status required erecting the wall of separation between layers of castes, as quickly and as firmly as possible.

Cheers!

What people are doing now is bad. Wrt the dalits, i can understand what the scenario is [a nb commented 'they (dalits) are having such desires (for vedam) because it is kaliyugam' - its like saying they are at fault merely for having such a desire].

I suppose i am an infinitely stupid fool living in a self-deluded world - but imagine an india with no barries, one can choose whichever caste one wants to get absorbed into (but based on abilities only, not mere desires) - imagine everyone having access to vedam, and chanting vedas if they so wish to, it wud be a GOLDEN AGE indeed. To me dharma broke down when kaliyugam started itself. What can one say long after dharma has broken down - YouTube - Hariharan singing Krishna Nee Begane Baro in Seattle (?????)

Its sad that Shri Shakara did not do much despite the ManishaPanchakam. But am not sure abt Shri Ramanuja. Please have a look at this: brief account of reformist and protestant communities of Andhra Did not Shri Ramanuja absorb ppl from all walks of life into SV?

Let there be no more Nandanars. And let peace prevail.

 

[RVR]

Sanskrit was in the domain of Brahmins in Tamilnadu. Unfortunately other communities didn't took interest in Sanskrit.

It is not the same with other states. For example in Kerala, everybody recites slokas in sanskrit.Chinmayananda and Swami Ranganathananda of Ramakrishna mutt are Nairs by birth. Both of them are well versed in Sanskrit .

Brahmins have contributed to Tamil throughout the history of Tamil. Recent history shows how U Ve Swaminatha Iyer recovered old Tamil Literature from ruins. Subramanya Bharathi and Rajaji made lot of contribution to Tamil Literature.

Even in the religious front, saints from brahmin community have contributed to Bakthi Literature in Tamil to a great extent.

Ramana Maharishi composed Sri Arunachala Aksharamanamalai (The Marital Garland of Letters) in Tamil only.

Vallimalai Satchidananda Swamigal was responsible for bringing `Tiruppugazh' to the lime light again. Personally I know Late Sri Krishna Iyer, disciple of Vallimalai Swamigal and both of them did a wonderful job in propagating Tiruppugazh.

My experience with Vallimalai Satchidananda Swami

Paramacharyal is well versed in Tamil literature and he propagated Bakthi Tamil Literature to a great extent. Thiruppavai, Thiruvembavai, Thiruppalli Ezhuchi, Kolaru Pathigam etc were popularised by Him only.

All the above happened in the last century only when Dravidian movement started rising.

But some how a wrong impression has been planted in the mind of general public that Brahmins are against Tamil and are closer to Sanskrit.

Unfortunately Brahmin community also kept silent and didn't do much to remove this propaganda.

All the best

 

[happyhindu]

Sanskrit was in the domain of Brahmins in Tamilnadu. Unfortunately other communities didn't took interest in Sanskrit.

...
But some how a wrong impression has been planted in the mind of general public that Brahmins are against Tamil and are closer to Sanskrit.

Unfortunately Brahmin community also kept silent and didn't do much to remove this propaganda.

All the best

Not sure how much it is true abt Sanskrit being the domain of brahmins in tamilnadu. Telugu folk in tamilnadu used to produce literature in sanskrit. Infact, if am not wrong the nayaks were giving the highest importance to sanskrit (not to telugu).

I think the wrong impression came about bcoz brahmins preferred to be called aryan instead of dravidian.

And the prob with NBs was that they preferred tamil with the purist angle; and were rather parochial in not allowing mingling of non-tamil stuff with tamil.

Please correct me if am wrong.

 

[Nara]

....And the prob with NBs was that they preferred tamil with the purist angle; and were rather parochial in not allowing mingling of non-tamil stuff with tamil.

The Tamil purity movement is only of recent origin. Even Tholkappiyar lays out rules for adopting foreign words -- திசைச் சொல். One possible reason for this is the deification of Sanskrit and the putting down of the vernacular.

Cheers!

 

[Nara]

..... But some how a wrong impression has been planted in the mind of general public that Brahmins are against Tamil and are closer to Sanskrit.

The reasons are very clear, Brahmins not only put Sanskrit ahead of Tamil. This is so even today, look at the recent conflict in Chidambaram.

Cheers!

 

[Nara]

Did not Shri Ramanuja absorb ppl from all walks of life into SV?

Yes, Bhagavat Ramanuja was a great reformer. What he did 1000 years ago is a wonder to behold. But his reforms did not breach the most fundamental varna taboos. Consequently, his reforms petered out and today SVs are among the worst casteists of them all.

Around the same time as Bhagavat Ramanauja there was Basavanna doing about the same thing. He went far beyond Ramanuja. He rejected Brahminism completely. But he still stayed within the Hindu fold and therefore, in due course of time, got absorbed as another caste. The same happened with the Sattada SV, some of whom were said to be Brahmins casting aside their Brahmin caste. Today, Sattada SV is another caste. This is why I agree with BRA, caste cannot be eliminated unless the blow is struck at the deepest of its deep roots, scriptures.

In the golden age you dream about why should there be any caste at all. In my view, if anyone can choose to pursue whatever that interest them and caste is a thing of long gone past, that is a good thing -- we may still not be in a golden age, but there cannot be a golden age with caste still in vogue.

Cheers!

 

[RVR]

Not sure how much it is true abt Sanskrit being the domain of brahmins in tamilnadu. Telugu folk in tamilnadu used to produce literature in sanskrit. Infact, if am not wrong the nayaks were giving the highest importance to sanskrit (not to telugu).

I think the wrong impression came about bcoz brahmins preferred to be called aryan instead of dravidian.

And the prob with NBs was that they preferred tamil with the purist angle; and were rather parochial in not allowing mingling of non-tamil stuff with tamil.

Please correct me if am wrong.

Brahmins never called themselves as Aryans or Dravidians. It is the creation of Dravidian movement.

Brahmins in Tamilnadu are classified under `Pancha Dravida Brahmins' only.

Brahmin communities - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

I don't know from where the word `Aryan' got associated with brahmins.

All the best

 

[Nara]

...I don't know from where the word `Aryan' got associated with brahmins.

I think Brahmins did consider themselves Aryans in one sense or another. Once again, let me remind members, restaurants called Arya Bhavan with the subtitle பிராமிணர்கள் சாப்பிடுமிடம் used to be quite common up until recently, at least one in any town of reasonable size. There may still be some Arya Bhavans sans the subtitle.

Cheers!