Dr. B.R. Ambedkar

[jaisiyaraam]

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I think Brahmins did consider themselves Aryans in one sense or another. Once again, let me remind members, restaurants called Arya Bhavan with the subtitle பிராமிணர்கள் சாப்பிடுமிடம் used to be quite common up until recently, at least one in any town of reasonable size. There may still be some Arya Bhavans sans the subtitle.

Cheers!

Namaste Naraji,

Do you mean TBs considered themselves Aryan after coming across Aryan Invasion/Migration Theory(AI/MT) ie during/after British Rule?

I am sorry, I am not blaming AI/MT and/or British Rule but its a genuine question ie when did TBs started calling themselves Aryans and rest as Dravidians?

Jai SiyaRaam

 

[sangom]

There is no doubt that BRA did what best he could for the country as also for Daliths, in the circumstances which prevailed then. But as a TB forum, we ought to consider what gave rise to so much animosity of Daliths towards the upper castes. If one would study the Manava Dharma Suthra (Sastra) we will find why. BRA was a very learned man and he had first-hand experience of the treatment meted out to Daliths. It will not be out of place here to remember that (as the Sankara Vijayams) say, even Adi Sankara was not free from the caste feelings and that is why he asked the chandala to get off from his (Sankara's) way. Luckily, that chandala happened to be the original Sankara himself in disguise!

 

[Nara]

....., we ought to consider what gave rise to so much animosity of Daliths towards the upper castes. If one would study the Manava Dharma Suthra (Sastra) we will find why.

IMO, there are differences in the animosity felt by the common Dalits living in villages and that felt by the educated Dalits.

The common Dalits living in villages experience untold humiliations and downright violence on an almost daily basis. Here is a Hindu article about one such instance. Such incidences are reported with sickening regularity. The ire of these unfortunate folks are primarily directed at the dominant caste of the the village. This gives a tactical advantage to caste Brahmins and they seize it with glee. They are quick to point out no brahmins are involved, brahmins abhor violence, and other homilies, and absolve themselves of any blame.

The educated Dalits, who is more likely to live in a city and less likely to experience direct discrimination unless he/she visits their village, look at the degradation heaped upon their folks, and their forefathers and foremothers from as far back as the dawn of "civilization", and they seethe in justifiable anger -- who wouldn't? When they try to understand the antecedents of this wretched state, they come face to face with Brahmnism and all its grand dharmashshthras. Then, they rightly hold the caste Brahmins responsible for each and every incidence of discrimination against Dalits anywhere. To them, it is the Brahmins who unleashed this rabid monster and that is not an unreasonable view to hold.

Pardon my mixed metaphor, this dirty oil from the well of Brahminism has been gushing for centuries causing havoc. The caste Hindus did not cause the leak, they are just making a killing out of it. It is the Brahmins who are responsible for this catastrophe and they have to seal it off, but they are not lifting a finger, no they are lifting a finger only to point it at the caste Hindus.

Cheers!

 

[sangom]

Thank you Nara for your detailed picture. The trillion rupee question is "are the brahmins ready to lift their fingers for sealing off the oil-well?"

 

[happyhindu]

Shri Sangom and Shri Nara,

I suppose tehre must be someway to make the dalits feel that they are religious "equals"...if not vedavidya, then a bhakti movement wud also help i feel...it wud be good if some large hearted brahmins come forward and start something like that...

I do not know what sort of humans they were to make the lives of the outcastes, women especially widows miserable, and then claim to be a good dharma...

 

[Raghy]

Sri.Nara said:-

Pardon my mixed metaphor, this dirty oil from the well of Brahminism has been gushing for centuries causing havoc. The caste Hindus did not cause the leak, they are just making a killing out of it. It is the Brahmins who are responsible for this catastrophe and they have to seal it off, but they are not lifting a finger, no they are lifting a finger only to point it at the caste Hindus.

Sri.Nara, Greetings. The leak you are talking about was guarded by sampradhayam until recently. No Brahmin wanted to be seen as the first person to break the sashtras and sampradhayams. It was not a leak though; it was a valve opened, which can be shut off, quite easily.
But now, it does not matter anymore. Most brahmins have lost the key for that valve; that valve is broken, it can't be shut anyway. So, do the brahmins know anything now at all? Yes, they know very well how the oil spill affected persons can be restored. Hope they do it.

(in my post - causing the oil spill by not sharing the knowledge to everyone and sundries; Lost the key now - not responsible for spreading the knowledge now ; knowledge to restore now - the admirable skill to adapt in any and every situation which can be taught to the oil spill affected persons. Here I am not discriminative. Help everyone and sundries, irrespective of the caste).

Cheers!

 

[Nara]

....I suppose there must be someway to make the dalits feel that they are religious "equals"...

Dear HH, IMO, what Dalits want foremost are dignity and self respect. The political and social dynamic is such that they don't want anyone to hand these to them, they are taking it as their right.

The problem, IMO, is not how to make Dalits feel equal, it is how to make TBs and other castes practice equality, dignity, and respect towards everyone. If TBs don't figure this out soon they have to move to other places where they have no choice but to practice equality, dignity, and respect towards everyone.

Cheers!

 

[sangom]

Shri Sangom and Shri Nara,

I suppose tehre must be someway to make the dalits feel that they are religious "equals"...if not vedavidya, then a bhakti movement wud also help i feel...it wud be good if some large hearted brahmins come forward and start something like that...

I do not know what sort of humans they were to make the lives of the outcastes, women especially widows miserable, and then claim to be a good dharma...

Shri Happy Hindu,

I feel that unfortunately valuable time has been lost. The Dalits have some privileges now (reservation) and in effect they are in the same position with respect to the higher castes now, as the latter were in the past. So, even if large-hearted higher caste people come forward as you suggest, that offer will most certainly be scorned, I feel.

As to the mentality of our ancient priestly class, I suppose you will be aware of the mantras, 'yan mE mAtA....' used in our SRAddha and SapiNDeekaraNam ceremonies. That is what they were!

 

[[email protected]]

To All: The Word ARYAN means Leader or Head of the Group.Due to Rajajis assn with Dravidan movements this Word become Brand name. Upto 1940's no such feeling was there. TBs were never treated other communites as lower and honestly speaking each community given a responsible share in all activities.The main issue started only when Rajaji wanted KULA Kalvi system all this problums started. To day any one can do any jobs, Business, only require money. Even money is there intercaste marriages become common. s.r.k.

 

[kunjuppu]

even now there are folks who try to justify the kula kalvi thittam, and attribute it to the 'ignorance' of the socalled lower castes for not appreciating its essential goodness.

also, they attributed periyar's propaganda against rajaji as a cause for this failure of the thittam.

what i am surprised (& i guess i should not be) is that rajaji missed the aspirations of the common folks. the sons of scavengers, agricultural peasants or potters for that matter, aspired to be doctors, accountants, lawyers.

intrinsic assumption in the kula kalvi thittam was the son will take up the father's profession, though this was never overtly mentioned. hence the politicians of the time could make heyday over it.

had rajaji exhorted all the other castes to buck up, and challenge them to beat the brahmins in education, and aspire to be the same lawyer, engineer or doctor, he would have been a hero. i think.

there might not have been the residual anti brahmin feeling, which for the past few generations we have found embedded in tamil nadu.

now we have doctors, lawyers, engineers from all castes, and i do not know why rajaji could not envision this landscape. he was a honest and good man, but a brahmin of his times.

 

[sangom]

even now there are folks who try to justify the kula kalvi thittam, and attribute it to the 'ignorance' of the socalled lower castes for not appreciating its essential goodness.

also, they attributed periyar's propaganda against rajaji as a cause for this failure of the thittam.

what i am surprised (& i guess i should not be) is that rajaji missed the aspirations of the common folks. the sons of scavengers, agricultural peasants or potters for that matter, aspired to be doctors, accountants, lawyers.

intrinsic assumption in the kula kalvi thittam was the son will take up the father's profession, though this was never overtly mentioned. hence the politicians of the time could make heyday over it.

had rajaji exhorted all the other castes to buck up, and challenge them to beat the brahmins in education, and aspire to be the same lawyer, engineer or doctor, he would have been a hero. i think.

there might not have been the residual anti brahmin feeling, which for the past few generations we have found embedded in tamil nadu.

now we have doctors, lawyers, engineers from all castes, and i do not know why rajaji could not envision this landscape. he was a honest and good man, but a brahmin of his times.

I am surprised that a Gandhian like Rajaji could insist on something which would have the effect of strengthening the caste divide. Google showed the following web page which may be telling the truth.

Thinnai - ????? ????? ????? ????? ??????????? ?????????... (print view)

 

[SALEM]

To Kunjuppu sir, To day Kula Thoziyel is the best Politicians sons become politicians,GOVT employs sons and Daug become govt servent,like on . s.r.k.

 

[suraju06]

The final solution

IMO, there are differences in the animosity felt by the common Dalits living in villages and that felt by the educated Dalits.

The common Dalits living in villages experience untold humiliations and downright violence on an almost daily basis. Here is a Hindu article about one such instance. Such incidences are reported with sickening regularity. The ire of these unfortunate folks are primarily directed at the dominant caste of the the village. This gives a tactical advantage to caste Brahmins and they seize it with glee. They are quick to point out no brahmins are involved, brahmins abhor violence, and other homilies, and absolve themselves of any blame.

The educated Dalits, who is more likely to live in a city and less likely to experience direct discrimination unless he/she visits their village, look at the degradation heaped upon their folks, and their forefathers and foremothers from as far back as the dawn of "civilization", and they seethe in justifiable anger -- who wouldn't? When they try to understand the antecedents of this wretched state, they come face to face with Brahmnism and all its grand dharmashshthras. Then, they rightly hold the caste Brahmins responsible for each and every incidence of discrimination against Dalits anywhere. To them, it is the Brahmins who unleashed this rabid monster and that is not an unreasonable view to hold.

Pardon my mixed metaphor, this dirty oil from the well of Brahminism has been gushing for centuries causing havoc. The caste Hindus did not cause the leak, they are just making a killing out of it. It is the Brahmins who are responsible for this catastrophe and they have to seal it off, but they are not lifting a finger, no they are lifting a finger only to point it at the caste Hindus.

Cheers!

So the solution is:

Somehow convert all brahmins into stones or donkeys in one stroke or better still throw them into the Arabian sea and Bay of Bengal and live happily:happy: thereafter in love and peace with the caste hindus. Jay ho.:lalala: