Education in Ancient India

[sankar100]

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[url]http://www.hinduwisdom.info/Education_in_Ancient_India.htm


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[kunjuppu]

sankar,

in the internet, you find many many websites, which are prejudiced, biased and above all a work of someone's imagination.

many of us would love to believe about ancient indian glory.

maybe some of us, would also look at the dark side of manu needhi - how it banished the dalits to oblivion. to manu, these folks did not exist.

today their descendents, having found their feet back on the ground, are not only asserting themselves, but are possessed with the anger of a millenium of ancestral displacement.

maybe we can as brahmins, instead of gloating over the past, retrospect, and come to terms with manu influenced hierarchy, which tambrams of today pay lipservice to... one example is the sadhaabishekam invitation that i received recently.. all in the name manu! how insensitive and how arrogant have we become!!

please think those over before boasting over imagined greatness. that will behoof more of your personal wisdom than anything else.

thank you.

 

[sarang]

<edited. Refrain from calling names.> If any part of the article is offensive, then there is some logic in disagreeing. A wild shot like "in the internet, you find many many websites, which are prejudiced, biased and above all a work of someone's imagination" is not going to mean anything unless the they relate to the article referred.

Those who feel guilty are free to wallow without ordering everybody else to jump into the 'pit'. We had a glorious past and the past should be made known to all always.

Todyay, a girl called 'manusmruti' has set a record of some sort - four generations of her family have been in the police force; both she and her father are IPS and are serving at the same time. They have beaten a canadian record of four generations in police with a collective period of 100 years over canadian family's 96 years.

We don't have a single statue for manu whereas we have many for evr. If the invitation is offensive to one's sensibilities, one should stay away6 from the function; or in evr style, blacken the offensive words and move on.

 

[kunjuppu]

sarang,

why dont you address me directly instead of some innuendo 'guilt ridden' stuff.

i personally do not feel any guilt. i am looking at this objectively. prove to me i am wrong. quote several unbiased references and i will believe. just as i believe in valluvar and aryabhatta. but there is no point in agreeing to every post in the web which glorifies india produced by quacks.

having said that, i did not find one reference here to facts.

also, let us go down south to the sangom age, which is glorified for the right reasons. there are documents and works can be referenced.

i am not saying there is no glory of ancient north indian hindus. instead of broad based paintings, let us be more specific, and understand that we tambrams are more of the south, and most of the ancient hindu paen comes from the north.

re manu, do you think, anyone who suggested that we pour lead into the ears of humans if they hear the gayathri (one example) deserves a statue? maybe he does, as a proof of venality.

re periyar, 98% of tamils view him as a reformer. over the course of future history, periyar will be remembered as a reformer, albeit an incomplete one. manu hopefully is cast aside to the dungheap of history and reviled.

you cannot have two standards of values. one for brahmins and one for the rest. and consider them all hindus. have you read what manu says of intercaste marriages? or the treatment meted out to women? i am afraid, the vast majority of hindus today would find manu abhorrent.

thank you.

 

[prasad1]

We have to be proud of our proven achievements. We do have to recognize the mistakes of the past and learn from them.
When a child tries to ride the bike for the first time and falls down, we encourage them to forget the fall and try again. That is the way of life. If we constantly keep reminding the child of the fall, they may never ride again.

People in every walk of life are proud of their achievements. You can be proud of your country, culture, language, family, yourself, etc. That is human nature.
I agree that with the internet there is a lot information out there that is not factual. So we must be careful in what we believe and accept as fact.

The world is not driven by Brahmin-non brahmin fight or believer vs non-believers arguments alone.

That tablet did not make sense to me when we were shown by a friend of mine. Now it makes sense. Thanks
"England's debt to India in pedagogies has been fitly acknowledged in the tablet in Warminister Abbey, which describes Andrew Bell as
"the eminent founder of the Madras System of Education, which has been adopted within the British empire, as the national system of education for the children of the poor."

 

[sankar100]

kunjuppu,

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manusmṛti

Are you sure the manusmrti mentions all that? What if what you read was a corrupted version and not the original?

Besides, that work does not seem to be authoritative and followed strictly at all.

There were several admirers of the work (people who were not orthodox brahmins or supporters of caste system).

Besides, that article that I showed you, does have citations and references and does not focus exclusively only any single thing. If you go through it completely you would know.

 

[kunjuppu]

kunjuppu,

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manusmṛti

Are you sure the manusmrti mentions all that? What if what you read was a corrupted version and not the original?

Besides, that work does not seem to be authoritative and followed strictly at all.

There were several admirers of the work (people who were not orthodox brahmins or supporters of caste system).

Besides, that article that I showed you, does have citations and references and does not focus exclusively only any single thing. If you go through it completely you would know.

hi sankar,

here is a reference, i request you to peruse.

manu-smriti

this is ofcourse a focused excerpts from manusmriti by a dalit, to prove the abject situation in life as prescribed by manusmriti. i have read a few of these, and i can only say that since there is reference to the original smriti, that these are genuine quotes.

but like anything in the web, these may be wrong or errors, but i have no reason not to believe it, unless proved otherwise, that these quotes are fakes.

i dont know about you, but my sense of decency and honour, tells me, that in no way, can any human being be condemned to status as prescribed by manu. that we are supposed to be twice born and be treated to a post on top of the totem pole, and every other community has their own positions there as defined by their birth, can be questioned.

but what cannot be argued is the treatment meted out to the panchamars, those who are considered so low as to be not within the caste system.

in 50 years of reservations, the bulk of their status have not improved. true, today, the tamil brahmin does not physically abuse the dalit. but there is milleniums of oppression, anger that is now being felt, at the treatment of their ancestors.

most of us would deny us doing any wrong to the dalits. but what is surprising is that many here would deny that our ancestors did wrong too. to them these were flawless, and any mention of ingrained racism perpetuated against the dalits, is a british invention.

i will leave it upto you, in your fairness, to judge.

for me, i am clear where i stand, and what i stand for and what i stand against. thank you.

 

[prasad1]

Mr Shankar,
You do have to admit that any book written at any period of time can not be absolutely right all the time. Every document written is time and place bound. Even bible has some fallacies and has to be modernized to today's need. So 'manusmiriti' is an ancient document that needs to be updated. Indian constitution did that to a great extent. So to that extent you have to accept Mr. Kunjuppu's argument.

Mr. Kunjuppu,
I understand your point, but some error, and mistakes does not make the entire document as invalid. If every word written in the past in subjected to today's standard we will have to ban Shakespeare for "merchant of Venice". Bible for the inconsistencies. A document to be a law today has to meet the constitution and today's government. So Manusmriti is not today's law.
They came up with a document close to a constitution for the time it was written should be appreciated as a historic document.

 

[Nara]

...manu-smriti

this is ofcourse a focused excerpts from manusmriti .

Manu smriti and other Hindu law books in all its glory can be seen here in English translation and here in original Sanskrit text.

 

[Nara]

.....Besides, that work does not seem to be authoritative and followed strictly at all..

Dear sankar100, I request you to state what your proposition is, I am not able to ascertain what that might be either from the link you have provided or from the title of the thread.

About Manu and other smritis, I am with you on one thing, I think you are probably right that there were several interpolations. However, IMO, these interpolations have been to assert the primacy of Brahmins and they have been accepted as authentic and part of the authoritative text. Be that as it may, at this time I would like to further examine a few assertions you have made.

You assert that there was an authoritative form of the smrithies before it got corrupted, ones that were free of any verses K and others like me object to. Probably, but I think you can't cite any unimpeachable evidence to support your assertion.

On the other hand, I can cite exact chapter and verse (I have done so earlier) in which Adi Sankara and Bhagavat Ramanuja cite these smirthies to point out that Shudras, not even pancamas, even shudras, will have to suffer the punishment of molten lead poured into their ears and/or their tongues cut out. So, whether or not these vile verses were inserted into an original pristine text, one that is authoritative version in your opinion, it is undeniable that the version acknowledged by the patron saints of at least two dominant branches of Brahmins as authoritative is the one you suspect is a corrupted version.

The next assertion you make is that these "corrupted" versions were not strictly followed at all. I agree partially. First of all, it is impossible to strictly follow these smrithees. On the one hand it prescribes very strict austere life style for Brahmins, and at the same time it also requires them to be rewarded with wealth at every turn. One may come up with some convoluted rationale for this. But, these are the same verses, corrupted or not, that were also used to justify segregation and oppression of large segments of the population.

Further, what we see even today is, and this is verifiable fact, not a single syllable of the version of these smrithees that you say are corrupted can be changed, according to some of the most revered acharyas. So, whether one follows every last syllable of these vile smritees strictly or not, they are hailed as inerrant words of the divine, no interpolations is conceded.

Next, you say there are several admirers of these Smrithees who are not orthodox brahmins or supporters of caste system. I request you to identify who they are. Also, please discuss why their opinion deserves our consideration any more than those who lived and suffered the consequences of these smrithees.

Thank you, Cheers!

 

[prasad1]

Mr. Shankar,
The article you cite in your original post is very detailed. Manusmrity is only a minor part of it. It gives the complete history of achievements which is getting lost in this thread. Please give a concise version of the worthwhile achievements from this document to make your point. When you see a mistake accept it and move on. Good luck.

 

[happyhindu]

On the other hand, I can cite exact chapter and verse (I have done so earlier) in which Adi Sankara and Bhagavat Ramanuja cite these smirthies to point out that Shudras, not even pancamas, even shudras, will have to suffer the punishment of molten lead poured into their ears and/or their tongues cut out. So, whether or not these vile verses were inserted into an original pristine text, one that is authoritative version in your opinion, it is undeniable that the version acknowledged by the patron saints of at least two dominant branches of Brahmins as authoritative is the one you suspect is a corrupted version.

I wonder what was the need for philosophers like Shankara and Ramanuja to cite the smrithis. Very very very very sad indeed......

Hinduism must be the only religion where feudal labour laws are considered divine. I would not blame the people of the past, whatever happened is over. The circumstances of the past do not beget in present times.

But the present world is a different one. So am not able to accept continued adherence for those 'divine' labour laws, despite all of us living under a democracy.

I wonder what the government could do further about dharmashastras which conflict with present-day laws....

 

[subbudu1]

We must be clear that Indian society infested with caste based divisions was still a society which had made quite a number of advancements in technology and literature. So there are bound to be positive things about our education system which was relevant to those days. It may have been curtailed by caste based rules but by and large we were educationally advanced compared to many of the countries. A blind belief in the glory of those times is uncalled for. While brahmin education did have many restrictions. But I assume that Universities like Nalanda did take many steps forward in providing a more open and broad based education. Even greek universities provided residential education I suppose and that might have been the story everywhere.

Personally I do think that University system where grown up adults , pursuing education , stay together in the dorms or hostels, can learn lot more than at home. It is the peer community that influences the thinking of the individual. Modern education has already been influenced by this age-old tradition . In the west I would assume that young under graduates would study together in universities , rather than take up residences at home. However it would be even better in a university where children are all very very motivated and have few distractions. Home is and can be a very big distraction.

A question to be asked is, "Was the positives in Ancient Indian Education any way unique?" I would think the times of Nalanda may have been the time when you could see aspirants from across the globe come to India. It might have been the glorious days of our education. But what is the point in beating past glory when we cannot resolve the problems of education now, when we seriously lack behind inspite of the money that we spend in Education? Our universities and colleges have no intention to modernize and improve our education!

 

[sangom]

p.255 from Education in Ancient India by Dr. A.S. Altekar


"Towards the beginning of the 9th century A.D., the creative vein in the Indian intellect got fatigued after an intense activity of more than 2,000 years. Hindu intellect had probably become old and no longer possessed the energy necessary to open out new paths of thought and action. Probably the heritage of the past became so great that all the ability of scholars was engrossed in preserving it. As also was the case in Europe down to the 16th century A.D., the habit of looking back to the past for inspiration and guidance became quite common ; it began to be instinctively felt that not much could be expected from the present. The golden age of inspiration had gone, no new achievements were possible, the best that the age could do was to preserve, expound or comment upon the masterpieces of the past. Hindu educational system was unable to create minds powerful enough to rise above the influence of these theories. For the last one thousand years and more, the Hindus have been writing only digests and commentaries on the works of earlier periods. Creative activity has come to a practical standstill."

It seems to me that the webpage cited by the OP is gloating over past glory, the very defect which Dr. Altekar says, infected the Hindu intellect ever since the beginning of the 9th. century A.D. When will we stop this? I think the title "Cry, my beloved country!" should have been more appropriate to such webpages.

I furnish below pp252 to show one instance of the past glory!

Under such circumstances, there was not much scope left for research and originality in those matters where opinions were expressed in sacred texts. A concrete case may be given to illustrate the point. In the infancy of astronomy, the eclipses were explained by the mythological
stories about Rahu and Ketu attacking and temporarily overpowering the moon and the sun. It
was an evil day for the advance of astronomy when this mythological version got a canonical sanction by its inclusion in the Puranas. Hindu astronomers like Aryabhata, Brahmagupta,Varahamihira and Bhaskaracharya knew the true causes of eclipses, but felt powerless to carry vigorous propaganda to explode their popular and mythological explanation canonised by the Puranas. Nay, Brahmagupta, with a view to win cheap popularity, went to the extent of advocating that the popular view was correct, when he knew full well that such was not the case. In Chapter I of his Brahma-siddhanta, he gives both the popular and scientific theories about the eclipses, but advocates the cause of the former. "Some people think that the
eclipse is not caused by the Head (of Rahu or Ketu). This, however, is a foolish idea. The Veda, which is the word of God from the mouth of Brahman, says that the Head eclipses, likewise Manusmriti and Gargasamhita". What is, however, most lamentable is that Brahmagupta, who knew full well the real cause of eclipses, should have proceeded to condemn Aryabhata,
Varahamihira, Srlshena and Vishnuchandra for expounding the unorthodox but scientific theory that eclipses are caused by the shadow of the eaith. It is important to note that Brahmagupta becomes guilty of intellectual and moral dishonesty because he was anxious to win cheap popularity by supporting the popular view that what was contained in the Vedas and Manusmriti could not be untrue. It is interesting to note that Varahamihira first combats the Rahu-Ketu theory, but then immediately succumbs to it. Aryabhata alone has perhaps the moral courage to be consistent with his intellectual convictions. But he also only hints that the popular theory is wrong, but does not dare to attack it openly. If the Rahu-Ketu theory of eclipses has continued to retain its hold over the popular Hindu mind for the last 1500 years and more, inspite of the scientific discovery of the true cause of eclipses, the reason is that Hindu scholarship of later times was too much in the leading strings of religion to carry on active propaganda against its
hypotheses.
Those who like to sing paeans for the Hindu religion, should rethink and realize that it was the religion's suffocating stranglehold which destroyed the scientific and technological advances which India could have achieved if only people had been able to break free of its stranglehold. But, as Dr. Altekar says, Indians got reduced to a set of zombies trained to eulogize their past and to write digests and commentaries on the works of the past. Let our younger generation which has now secured a chance to flourish in foreign lands like US, UK, etc., come out of the religious fantasy; to copy what Karl Marx said, "Hindus who are NRIs & PIOs unite, you have nothing to lose except the deadweight of religion."

 

[Nara]

... Let our younger generation which has now secured a chance to flourish in foreign lands like US, UK, etc., come out of the religious fantasy; to copy what Karl Marx said, "Hindus who are NRIs & PIOs unite, you have nothing to lose except the deadweight of religion."

I support this call with every fiber in my body.

 

[prasad1]

There is lot to be proud of our achievements. Just as we are proud of the achievements of our children, we do not go about telling the world that he failed driving test, or got failing grade in his/her 4th grade math homework.

Religion is like the 'American infrastructure' it is the best and has sustained us. It has helped us flourish and reach great heights. Do we 'falling bridges' in religion and from time to great thinkers have come along to repair those 'falling bridges'. Do we have people like 'republicans' to point finger and do nothing of course.

Kabir, raja ram Mohan roy, Gandhi, Dayanada Saraswati, etc changed the society. Only majority can change a society, minority can only cry. If the whites in America did not support the emancipation of black, African american today would not have the rights.

 

[sangom]

There is lot to be proud of our achievements. Just as we are proud of the achievements of our children, we do not go about telling the world that he failed driving test, or got failing grade in his/her 4th grade math homework.

Shri Prasad,

True we may have many things of which to be proud of. Nobody is disputing that. Also true that we should not be complaining of our failures and make a permanent tragic face. But what is it that makes many - from the hindutva side as also people having a feeling of being true hindu, etc., which makes them trumpet the past achievements when they are acutely aware that our slate has been blank for nearly two millennia, as Dr. Altekar says? IMO, it is just a psychology of gloating too much over your past glories when your present is an abject blank.
This psychology may be seen well-presented in the Malayalam novel Ntuppuppaakkoraanaendaarnnu (my gran'dad owned an elephant!) written by Vaikkom Muhammad Basheer, the famous Malayalam story teller.

Religion is like the 'American infrastructure' it is the best and has sustained us. It has helped us flourish and reach great heights. Do we 'falling bridges' in religion and from time to great thinkers have come along to repair those 'falling bridges'. Do we have people like 'republicans' to point finger and do nothing of course.
If the whites in America did not support the emancipation of black, African american today would not have the rights.

As I am not familiar with US affairs, no comments.

Kabir, raja ram Mohan roy, Gandhi, Dayanada Saraswati, etc changed the society. Only majority can change a society, minority can only cry.

IMHO, none of the above could bring in any change even among the majority of the people; though they might have been great people in their own right, what best they could do was to create a certain following of their own and spread their views among those followers; Gandhi was also not an exception to the above, but because his congress could succeed in getting Independence from British rule, we mistake him to have changed a whole society. But how many Indians were congress people even at the time of Independence? Nehru and congress got less than 45% of the votes polled in the 1951 general elections, fyi.

 

[prasad1]

Gandhi was also not an exception to the above, but because his congress could succeed in getting Independence from British rule, we mistake him to have changed a whole society. But how many Indians were congress people even at the time of Independence? Nehru and congress got less than 45% of the votes polled in the 1951 general elections, fyi.

Fair arguments, any view to be successful you need followers, If Jesus did not have followers there will be no Christianity. If people do not want to change you can not change them. The suggestions are for the believers. But that is true in any walk of life. But the reverse is also true, if you Keep telling our people that they are stupid, and they had this practice which was bad, or you have the bad habit of wasting time in social,cultural, or religious activity. Then you might get a following. So now we have disillusioned, disgruntled people with no goal and no leader. That will lead to anarchy and people will kill each other.

When a house is crumbling, you need to provide an alternative accommodation before destroying the house. We all are limitation (some may not agree), we all are looking to associate with success. When Bhidra wins his Olympic gold whole India is thrilled. When China wins 50 Gold we don't even know one name. So I would not want to lie and claim credit for something that is not true, but I can claim if there is 50-50 chance that there is no other.

I wanted to claim a name for a my business, I submitted copyright and was given that name. After 5 years due to acquisition a much bigger company with the same name is in my town. I feel that i lost business, and now I have to change my company name. I can definitively claim that I was the first and I have papers to prove it, but it is a legal hastily not worth the trouble.

So if the Greek claim they invented zero, and they have better lobby they get the credit. If our lobby becomes bigger and we prove that Zero was known to Indian long before Greek. We win the argument. So it is there word against our word.

 

[happyhindu]

So if the Greek claim they invented zero, and they have better lobby they get the credit. If our lobby becomes bigger and we prove that Zero was known to Indian long before Greek. We win the argument. So it is there word against our word.

People cannot win arguments merely by lobbying and making claims. They wud need to provide relevant evidence. On this very forum there are religious hindus making claims without evidence. Ofcourse escapist routes exist; and so one wud expect to make fantastical claims on vedas, vedanta, ancient india, ancient education, etc - and expect to be accepted merely for their word. When it comes to evidence, things could come falling apart...

 

[sangom]

Fair arguments, any view to be successful you need followers, If Jesus did not have followers there will be no Christianity. If people do not want to change you can not change them. The suggestions are for the believers. But that is true in any walk of life. But the reverse is also true, if you Keep telling our people that they are stupid, and they had this practice which was bad, or you have the bad habit of wasting time in social,cultural, or religious activity. Then you might get a following. So now we have disillusioned, disgruntled people with no goal and no leader. That will lead to anarchy and people will kill each other.

Dear Shri Prasad,

The point is not that we should not even be justifiably proud, if we have a fool-proof case, nor that we should go on berating our position like what you say, "stupid, and they had this practice which was bad, or you have the bad habit of wasting time in social,cultural, or religious activity". The issue is whether it is not a symptom of the psychology of the utter bankruptcy today of the Indian (read Hindu, because other religionists of Indian origin do not seem to have this proclivity) mind in SET which makes so many people to go on unnecessarily harping on some of the supposed past achievements. If you can follow Malayalam and will read the story referred to by me, you will find a strikingly similar mindset in a Muslim woman, reduced to near pauper-stage, borrowing things from all and sundry (short of open begging) but often saying "my grandad owned an elephant", often, thinking that people (society at large) will be taking her as a rich person. Are the hindutva-greatness trumpeteers not exhibiting a similar mind-set?

Given below are some comments from a paper, which I think are relevant to this issue; the full paper can be read in the url given at the end.

There are, of course, other analyses of what ails science in India. Some claim that the emphasis of science in our country on theory and the avoidance of the practical is a result of our long, brahminical traditions. This may be so, but the insight hardly helps us find immediate, operational solutions.

Among the ‘internal factors’, namely those which are amenable to decision-making processes within the scientific community, certainly the most important are the relevant priorities and allocations assigned to different S&T areas. Society supports scientists in their work because of an expectation that the returns will amply pay for the investment. Looking at the allocations for the different sectors in the economy, clearly the assumption among our scientific decision-makers is either that only the rich can make use of scientific innovations or that science has no possible relevance to lives of the poor.(Science and technology for sustainable development)

When a house is crumbling, you need to provide an alternative accommodation before destroying the house. We all are limitation (some may not agree), we all are looking to associate with success. When Bhidra wins his Olympic gold whole India is thrilled. When China wins 50 Gold we don't even know one name. So I would not want to lie and claim credit for something that is not true, but I can claim if there is 50-50 chance that there is no other.

I wanted to claim a name for a my business, I submitted copyright and was given that name. After 5 years due to acquisition a much bigger company with the same name is in my town. I feel that i lost business, and now I have to change my company name. I can definitively claim that I was the first and I have papers to prove it, but it is a legal hastily not worth the trouble.

So if the Greek claim they invented zero, and they have better lobby they get the credit. If our lobby becomes bigger and we prove that Zero was known to Indian long before Greek. We win the argument. So it is there word against our word.

If what you write above is to justify the "tooting own glories" syndrome, then I think it is not correct. Instead of simply writing many, many web pages and writing in web forums like this by ever so many people, which will have no effect, it is for all such people to analyze how much the Indian government is wasting in the name of scientific research, the dismal performance of many of our research establishments in terms of inventions/discoveries, and to create a strong lobby which will act as a watchdog on the scientific work being done in the country and how well it is done.

I have written elsewhere in this forum, how the scientists of the Bhaba Atomic Research Centre used to spend their days reading weeklies and magazines, riding through the town in the buses owned by BARC after just signing attendance! Similarly, how the scientists of VSSC, deputed with a mission to get at the technical secrets not divulged by the french company manufacturing missiles for weather forecasting, connived at not learning the thing and ensuring "foreign deputation" to ever so many of their colleagues and bosses.

Instead of being aware of the stinking state of Scientific research or invention/discovery now, what earthly benefit will we get by simply gloating over some ancient past? And what plans have the websites like Hindu wisdom and its author, Sushama Londhe, Indian-American who came to the U.S. as a graduate student 30 years ago, and has settled there for good for improving the present India?

 

[happyhindu]

Sangom Sir said (These words should be etched in gold) :
Instead of being aware of the stinking state of Scientific research or invention/discovery now, what earthly benefit will we get by simply gloating over some ancient past?

Once upon a time traditional sciences like siddha medicine, ayurveda, native astronomy, etc were ahead for their times. But today not so.

Religionists may not agree but modern science is indeed very far ahead of traditional sciences today. I would say know the past, but instead of gloating over it, find ways to innovate and progress in the present.

Religious adherence has a dangerous way of confusing people. The worst example of religious education is this sort being taught in a modern world of science and technology -- Pakistan schools teach Hindu hatred: US commission - The Times of India

 

[prasad1]

Sangom sir post#20 as usual is well written.
If you do not toot your horn nobody will give you any credit. When Indian companies sell their services in other countries do you think they go and bad mouth Indian workers, and Indian facilities. If they all did exactly what your friends do on this site, we would get the MNC to relocate their research facilities to India. If Indian traditions and Indian are as bad as your group suggests we should not be as successful as we are. Thankfully they all read some other site to praise our achievements. Famous Journalist, politicians, economist, and even casual visitors are in awe of our achievements. I guess to your group it will matter only when a "vallakaran" says it, otherwise you will say you are tooting your horn.

 

[sangom]

Sangom sir post#20 as usual is well written.
If you do not toot your horn nobody will give you any credit. When Indian companies sell their services in other countries do you think they go and bad mouth Indian workers, and Indian facilities. If they all did exactly what your friends do on this site, we would get the MNC to relocate their research facilities to India. If Indian traditions and Indian are as bad as your group suggests we should not be as successful as we are. Thankfully they all read some other site to praise our achievements. Famous Journalist, politicians, economist, and even casual visitors are in awe of our achievements. I guess to your group it will matter only when a "vallakaran" says it, otherwise you will say you are tooting your horn.

Dear Prasad,

In some sense I had a hunch of some response of this type from you or your friends. I hesitate to agree with your assessment that MNCs come to India because of of our (Indian) traditions and Indians being not bad; imo, the MNCs come here because we have had a huge, adequately trained and young workforce who were very familiar with English and was intelligent enough to understand the nuances of computer science adequately. Similar workforces are available in China too, but it is handicapped by the lack of knowledge of English; China is therefore, reportedly preparing a million strong computer workers, and, once these are ready, you will find MNCs relocating - as completely as possible - to China. You will be amused to read this report India tries outsourcing its outsourcing - The New York Times

I do not think TCS/Infosys/Wipro or any other IT company gets its outsourcing job contract because the foreign client, whether in US, Sweden or Newzealand, read web pages like Hindu Wisdom - Education, or try to get familiar with what the ancients seers or sages wrote in sanskrit about mostly theoretical topics. I have already given some extracts from Dr. A.S. Altekar's book which reveals how some of the so-called great minds of the "India that shone" were intellectually dishonest. And yet, we people, without a good grasp of sanskrit or our so-called great achievements by reading first hand, the concerned treatises or commentaries thereof, merely shout "glory be to ancient India" ass if we are a group of zombies.

Perhaps the mistake of or was it partiality?, of history was that we did not have a revolution like the great French Revolution which is described in the following terms: (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/French_Revolution):—

French society underwent an epic transformation as feudal, aristocratic and religious privileges evaporated under a sustained assault from radical left-wing political groups, masses on the streets, and peasants in the countryside. Old ideas about tradition and hierarchy - of monarchy, aristocracy and religious authority - were abruptly overthrown by new Enlightenment principles of equality, citizenship and inalienable rights.

In India the aristocracy and religious authority were in a rather seamless union and the masses, peasants, etc., were suppressed and converted to live as despicable specimens of humanity on the outskirts of the villages, near cremation ghats. We had, instead, many foreign invasions but all through those, the interests of the invader/conqueror and the indigenous aristocracy and religious authority coincided in the one item, viz., the keeping of the poor under control and suppression. Hence, India was bypassed by egalitarian reforms and that is the root cause of the present wretched state of India's not being a front-rank country as far as SET is concerned. We are now gloating over some passing economic improvement due to our ability to be English knowing, English-speaking factotums for the countries which have gone miles and miles ahead in SET and MNCs from those.

Even Sushama Londhe who is the root cause of this thread has gone to US after her graduation and is singing paeans of ancient Indian wisdom from there, not from India. In short, Indian wisdom, is wisdom which has become ancient, i.e., past expiry date.

 

[prasad1]

"The grass is always greener on the other side of the fence." It means that things always seem better elsewhere.

I do not know the French society before revolution, and not enough royalty were left to defend their culture, History is written by the victors.
We know a lot of revolution that produced the wrong results.
Ayatolla Iran. Cultral revolution in China, Khemar rouge in Combodia, etc.

A gradual change from within is better method for the life of people like us.
Look at the industrial revolution, or DotCom revolution etc.

 

[kunjuppu]

"...

A gradual change from within is better method for the life of people like us.
Look at the industrial revolution, or DotCom revolution etc.

neither of these were 'gradual' afaik.

the industrial revolution in england, was accompanied by wholescale migration of farmers made landless by the land consolidation acts, which basically brought small farms together into large farms, and in a direct way provided human fodder to feed the enormous appetite for labour in the urban factories.

urban blight, child labour, slums, dangerous work conditions, working 12 -16 hours a day without a break and days off, industrial accidents etc were the norms and results of industrial revolution of europe 18 19th centuries. one has to only read dickens or any writer of those times to understand the horrors. so prasad, it is wrong to say that industrial revolution was gradual peaceful etc.

lots of workers died in the mines and factories. as many were shot point blank when trying to protest or form unions.

re dot.com, this is recent memory. this revolution made paper millionaires of many and pauperized thousands of gullible investors. it wreaked havoc on work culture and prospects for north americans. whereas in 70s, 80s an IT career was lifelong viable option and eagerly sought by north americans, with the inflow of dot.com's appetite for cheap mass labour and transfer of labour to india, while benefitting the latter has destroyed the middle class aspirations of many poor folks in the usa and canada. so, it was not all that of a panacea here.

add to it, while it has brought prosperity, it has also caused turbulence, in freeing our womenfolk from the clutches of greedy inlaws and servitude attitude expected of boy's parents when they hunted for brides for their sons. this is among the most welcome developments in my opinion, and set right eaons of wrongs done against the parents, for the simple act of giving birth to girls.