Fate and Free-will

[zebra16]

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This is a topic of fascination both to the proponents and opponents. Is there a freewill and how much free it is. In Hindu traditions, as this also encompasses the doctrine of karma and re-birth, it would be useful to have discussion on the re-birth theory too.

I start off with the cut and paste of message of Sri Sangom posted in another thread.

QUOTE:

"Dear Shri Ravi,

I have read a simile of "Fate & Freewill" saying that it is like a cow tethered to a pole by a strong, unbreakable rope, so that the cow does not go away very far in the grazing. (This is of course a universal practice which most of us must be aware of.) The cow is fully free to graze within that circle (of which the rope-length will be the radius,and the pole will be the centre). It has to strain its neck, feet and, may be the torso also, to graze the immediate vicinity just outside this circle. A mature cow usually can reach one or two feet more in this way if it feels hungry enough and exhausts all the grass within the "fated" circle; but a calf will not be able to reach out that skilfully, nor will it reach that much outside the rope's tether.

Fate & Freewill are exactly like the above. God is not necessary in this. The pole is the "Fate" which controls a man; the length of the rope gets longer as the accumulated results of one's actions. (Whether we limit this to the current birth or extend it to previous births also, will depend on one's religious belief.) In our life this rope-length determines the extend of our "Free Will" viz., how predisposed are we for hard work, to be ambitious, smart and responsible to improve ourselves; a very short rope will curb this freewill very much and the person will then fall in the category you describe as reluctant to improve themselves and if questioned would blame their FATE and or would say that their belief and prayers to GOD is giving no fruits. It may also be noted that more of allowed freewill will lead a person through the right path.

Hence the most important thing for us to do is to ensure that our actions or karma are good. The concept of God is desirable but not necessary. To my very limited knowledge this is the gist of what Buddha preached."

UNQUOTE:

My basic questions are: (i) Why does the God or "the Equiliser" allow the karma to be accumulated in birth after birth; why not deal with it swiftly then and there;

(ii) why do I get punished or rewarded by my karma for the offenses I committed eons before and when I do not have even the faintest idea for which I am being punished or rewarded? Does it serve any purpose to punish or reward me for an unknown karma?

(iii) As per advaitins (I do not know for sure about other vedantins), atma is "akarma and abhoktha". So why punish Narayan's body which houses the atma in this janma for the sins or omissions committed when it occupied Vasudeva's body in the remote past, especially when it is always non-performer and non-enjoyer?

I would be glad to receive responses.

Regards,

narayan

 

[Visalakshi Ramani]

[h=1]23. சுயேச்சையா?[/h]
“நாம் நினைப்பது ஒன்று;
நமக்கு நடப்பது ஒன்று!
நம்மை ஆட்டிப்படைப்பது
நம்முடைய சுயேச்சையா?

இருக்குமிடம் தெரியாத
இறைவனின் இச்சையா?
குருநாதரிடம் கேட்போம்;
கூடிச் செல்வோம் வாரீர்!”

“முளையில் கட்டப்பட்டு
மேய்கின்ற ஒரு பசுவுக்கு,
சுயேச்சை எத்தனையோ,
சுயேச்சை அத்தனையே

இறைவன் தந்துள்ளான்,
இங்கே ஒவ்வொருவருக்கும்.
கட்டும் கயிற்றின் நீளமே
காணும் பசுவின் சுயேச்சை!

முளை அடித்த இடமோ,
முதல்வனின் இச்சையே!
இச்சையும், சுயேச்சையும்
இணைந்துள்ளதை அறிவீர்!”

வாழ்க வளமுடன்,
விசாலாக்ஷி ரமணி.

 

[Visalakshi Ramani]

HOW MUCH FREEDOM HAS BEEN GIVEN TO US?
This short poem discusses whether man is dependent on God or independent.
At times we feel that we have a number of choices and assume that we have plenty of independence. At other times we feel we are forced to go the way some invisible force is pushing us to go.
Let us go to our guru and get this concept cleared.
The Guru says,” We have as much as independence as a cow tied to a post. The length of the rope is the amount of independence we are given by God. But the location of the post is God’s choice. So we depend on God as to where we are born and live but in that place we have limited independence to do or not do certain things.”

This poem was posted in my blog in 2010 and the English translation was

subsequently added.

you may find these in the A poem a day...thread here also in the literature

section!

 

[Visalakshi Ramani]

we don't know WHY we are being punished or rewarded

since we DO NOT KNOW or remember our past actions.

But if we believe in Karma Theory, we can take care of our present actions

to avoid being punished in our future births!

See how the past, present and future are connected as

one continuous flow of time- which it really is!

Karma theory is just the Cause and Effect!

 

[Visalakshi Ramani]

காரணம் இல்லாமல் காரியம் இல்லை!

just as விதை இல்லாமல் மரம் இல்லை!

 

[renuka]

we don't know WHY we are being punished or rewarded

since we DO NOT KNOW or remember our past actions.

But if we believe in Karma Theory, we can take care of our present actions

to avoid being punished in our future births!

See how the past, present and future are connected as

one continuous flow of time- which it really is!

Karma theory is just the Cause and Effect!

Dear VR Ji,

See I dont know what happened in my previous births or even my future births I will not know..even what will happen tomorrow I dont know but I am 100% sure this thread will be the next hot thread of the Forum.

Its ok..we will watch the debates while singing..

Sanchita Papa Vinashana Lingam Tat Pranamaami Sada Shiva Lingam.
​

 

[Raghy]

Dear Sri.Narayan Sir, Greetings.

Your questions are based, taking for granted that karma theory is correct. What would be the case if karma theory is not correct? Even worse, what if there is no 'equaliser' to deal swiftly or otherwise?

As per the length of the rope, the rope is not equitable in length. For the given same circumstances, the length of the rope is different in USA, Canada, Australia and in India; the length of the rope is not equitable compared to city exposure to village expposure; different depending upon the persons involved, rich/poor/educated/illiterate/orthodox/reformist.... there are many variables.

Cheers!

 

[sravna]

Dear Shri Narayan,

Here's my take:

The extent of your freewill depends on how much you are free from the bondage of the world. Eventually you become totally free. Fate just traces that path to freedom. Fate and freewill thus need not be seen in contrast. Your ulitmate fate is to have total freewill

 

[Raji Ram]

Copy pasting a portion of my write-up today, in the thread 'eNNa alaigaL'.

I have a 100% belief in previous births, after seeing many good people suffer.

"எத்தனை ஆண்டுகள் உலகில் வாழ்வது? - என
சித்தனைக் கேட்டாலும் இயம்ப இயலாது!
.........................
முற் பிறவி மீது நம்பிக்கை இல்லாதோரும் - அதை
இப்பிறவியில் சிலர் படும் பாடு கண்டு நம்பிடுவர்!

எடுத்த இப்பிறவியில் நலம் பல புரிய வேண்டும் - அதனால்
அடுத்த பிறவியில் எளிதாய்க் கடைத்தேற வழி தோன்றும்!"

 

[sravna]

Here's my theory on why we need different births and why there is no dispensation of reward or punishment in the same birth:

There are two ways of knowing things which I call as external and internal. While the ones you know through the external means is what you see in the physical world and learn from those experiences. But that learning alone is not sufficient as your environment you were born and brought up along with heredity limits the type of experiences you undergo. Thus there is the necessity that you need to take several births to undergo comprehensive and complete experiences to achieve real learning that being to be free of ego and bringing the senses and mind under control.

The above is the spiritual goal which in addition to the external learning requires internal learning. The experiences of the previous lives I would assume are assimilated and carried to the future births in a way that is reflected in new nature and personality in the future births. The environment it gets is probably according to its new nature so that the goal of learning is furthered.

Also, I would have the divide, physical and spiritual for the basic nature of a person. If he is on the physical side he tends to believe the external and less driven by the inner voice. The opposite is the case of a spiritual person. So if a physical person is punished for the bad deeds it is for the soul to realize that he cannot get away by doing wrong. In the case a spiritual person is made to suffer it is for a different reason. It is done to expose him to grater and greater pressure so that his mind becomes more and more mature. A spiritual who basically responds to pressure better is thus fine tuned to lead to the final spiritual goal.

A physical person is allowed to grow his ego and perverted intelligence and let them reach a peak. Because he has to know that however hard he tries and however equipped he is, if his intentions are bad his goals will not succeed. After the golden period of the ego comes the realization of truth through the sufferings. The internal thing which has access to all the births correlates the experiences of various births and its nature gets progressively altered. It finally transcends the divide and turns basically spiritual.

The above is how I make sense of the karma theory.

 

[Nara]

I have a 100% belief in previous births, after seeing many good people suffer.

Dear Raji, Greetings!

This is because we humans expect/want some satisfactory explanation for things that happen to us and around us. Among non-humans if calamity befalls, in most cases calamity would mean loss of life, the other animals just go about their business. We humans have excess capacity in our upper chamber that seeks an explanation. When we can't find any rational answers, there is a tendency to simply make one up.

There are lot of things than occur due to the rather unfair and uncaring randomness of nature, a baby born with a hole in the heart, or blind, or with autism -- it is not rational or reasonable, I think, to say these are due to poorva janma karma.

Cheers!

 

[Raji Ram]

Dear Prof. Sir,
Now I am thinking whether I should say, 'Prof is always right'? :decision:

Regards,
Raji Ram

 

[Nara]

...Now I am thinking whether I should say, 'Prof is always right'?

Dear Raji, There is nothing wrong telling me I am wrong , just that I would like to know why I am wrong. Please go ahead and state your view, we can have a fun discussion.

BTW, the question of free will is one of the most vexing ones. I am mulling over the questions Narayan has raised in the OP. If I get to a point of having anything interesting to say I will make a post.

Cheers!

 

[Raji Ram]

Dear Prof. Sir,

I believe in previous birth. But, you don't!

I think what I say is right, right?

On second thoughts..... I should not say that you are wrong because,

according to you, you are right!! (sort of 'samaaLification' )

Regards,
Raji Ram eace:

 

[renuka]

This discussion reminds me of the movie " Vaitheeswaran" acted by Sarath Kumar.
It had a nice twist to Karma,Rebirth and Free Will.
Especially the scene where Sarath Kumar pours water into the mouth of Sayaji Shinde.

 

[Nara]

Dear narayan, Greetings!

Fate and free will is a fascinating subject. We hit a wall whatever answer seems to make sense initially. As your insightful questions show, finding satisfactory answers is vital for people of religious faith and yet their task is hopeless.

If unseen and unknown poorva-janma karma determines our station and proclivities in this life, then where is the question of free choice? If our karma in the present life is a result of our vasana, which in turn is determined by our poorva-janma karma, then, two questions arise, (i) the inevitable infinite regress that leads us to an answerable original karma, one that Abrahamic religions childishly answer as some lady eating a forbidden fruit, and one that Vedantins answer as unanswerable -- anAthi, and (ii) how can we be held responsible for good or bad actions as they are driven by our vasana?

(iii) As per advaitins (I do not know for sure about other vedantins), atma is "akarma and abhoktha". So why punish Narayan's body which houses the atma in this janma for the sins or omissions committed when it occupied Vasudeva's body in the remote past, especially when it is always non-performer and non-enjoyer?

This raises even more unanswerable questions.

BTW, I don't want to get into technicality, but VA's view is jeeva is both the doer and enjoyer, albeit within the suzernity of Parabrhman. The bliss the jeeva gets to enjoy is equal in every measure to that of the Parabrhman.

From a rational POV, we are products of our genes, fashioned over eons of evolution. In as much as we have no control over the genes we inherit, we do not have free will with respect to our innate nature predetermined by the genes.

The next factor that surely has an influence upon the alternative opportunities available to us and the choices we make is the environment in which we grow up and live. This environment is surely not within the scope of our free will.

So, a persuasive case can be made that free will is just a myth. With this I am not suggesting that everything is nicely predetermined and all we have to do is act the part. My argument is, given a set of circumstances, due to our innate proclivities determined by our genes and the environmental conditioning, both being beyond our free will and therefore cannot be pinned on us, whether we have free will or not is not an easy question to answer.

All this is just fine for atheists, but a major problem for theists. If free will is simply a myth, then, we cannot be held responsible for our actions, and therefore a god who punishes us for our sinful karma that did not result from freely made choice, will be a capricious and tyrannical god.

This is a problem even in the secular arena. How can we hold mass murderers and rapists responsible for their actions if their actions were just an accident of natural mutation of their genes? Well, the secularists can find an easy answer, namely, we incarcerate these people for the protection of rest of humanity, irrespective of whether they chose to act based on free will in violent and despicable ways or not. This is why (i) capital punishment is untenable, and (ii) those who are incarcerated must be treated in a humane way.

All said and done, fate - predetermined in a religious or secular way -- and free will, is a complex problem, one that may not have an easy answer at all.

Cheers!

 

[sravna]

Shri Nara,

Many of our questions will be answered if we take our sufferings not as a punishment but as the way we learn and mature. It is how our mind finally becomes unaffected by anything and stays balanced.

 

[Nara]

Many of our questions will be answered if we take our sufferings not as a punishment but as the way we learn and mature. It is how our mind finally becomes unaffected by anything and stays balanced.

Sravna, this is alright in an universe free of an omniscient, omnipotent and compassionate god. In an universe ruled over by a god suffused with such omni-characteristics, there is no need to predicate learning and securing maturity upon suffering.

Cheers!

 

[renuka]

Shri Nara,

Many of our questions will be answered if we take our sufferings not as a punishment but as the way we learn and mature. It is how our mind finally becomes unaffected by anything and stays balanced.

I fully agree with you Sravna.Its only us who view any happening as a reward or suffering becos of the thought of pairs of opposites in us.
In reality there are only experiences.

 

[sravna]

Sravna, this is alright in an universe free of an omniscient, omnipotent and compassionate god. In an universe ruled over by a god suffused with such omni-characteristics, there is no need to predicate learning and securing maturity upon suffering.

Cheers!

As Renuka says everything is an expereince. How to make us to avoid doing something which would cause our own downfall? By making the experiences unpalatable right?

 

[C RAVI]

Dear Renuka,

The below is the extact from your post under the thread - "How much of a hyporcrite we all are"

Dear Sangom,

That's the chances we take with life.. no one really knows tommorow.

I have 2 doubts. Hope you or any one can enlighten me.

1) Many practical/intelligent/successful people say that if you apply your brain and efforts properly, you can predict where and how you would be in future and thats how we are now here, dwelling on a higher sumit.

I want to know as whether medical advancement could prove it? And if anything can be done to the brains of the kids (based of the genetic qualities of the kid's successful/intelligent parents and their full efforts to equip their kids) who are not at all able to grasp education and excell in life; so that the child can be as briliant as his/her parents or can go even higher?

2) Non technical/scientific -

We may say for instance...

Coincidence is : I'm talking to my friend on the phone and we happen to be in the same mall!

Fate is : I accidentally spill soda on a stranger, we strike up a conversation, and end up being married forever.

Based on the above example, want to know as how can and whether we can accept the concept of FATE, that is considered as imaginary by many.

Just a curiosity...

 

[Iyyarooraan]

A couple past middle age was on the side walk, and the man loudly said "incidentally I whistled for a tax which did not come by 25 years ago!

 

[C RAVI]

A couple past middle age was on the side walk, and the man loudly said "incidentally I whistled for a tax which did not come by 25 years ago!

Sri Ayyarooraan,

A great eye opener for people who believe in fate... ...Well, do you mean to say that, the man instead of just whistling for a taxi, should have ran away 25 years ago, instead of blaming his FATE (which didnt offer him a taxi), and by that way, he would have been much happier now with some other lady? LOL...

Might be his FATE didn't allow him to think briliantly (when he could think many for his life with his briliant brain) and escape..Can't it be this way?

I have come accross stories where a husband escaped from his legally married wife to happily live with another lady (as per his brilient brain) and at last had to come back to his first wife with lots of guilt and shame (having his heart broken with his new lady)...Similar cases happened with the escaping ladies. Either they have come back or never, but were undergoing distress with their new lady/man.

 

[Iyyarooraan]

[FONT=&quot]Shri Ravi Sir – If the man had run away without waiting for taxi it would have been his will not to learn about the WORLD. Probably fate flicked to entice him. As for 2 wives, the first one could be his fate and the second his will. His Will run for a while provided fate does not make the two wives as friends. In the end he would be sandwiched between two fates. [/FONT]

 

[C RAVI]

I just loved your posts Sri Iyyarooraan....