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Fate and Free-will
- Thread starter zebra16
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C RAVI
0
Dear Renuka,
The Fate not been yet sealed...Request can be made to Sri Zebra7 to post the translation in a perfect manner, as good as he did in another post.
I have stated above just to indicate the possibilities of Free Will to exist beyond Fate, as per the subect matter of this thread
For sure, the exchange of dialogue between me and Shri Brahin got nothing to do with this subject.
S
ShivKC
Guest
sh.ragy, wouldnt that be a boring life on earth, if all are created identical?
an identical, all white chubby healthy new born getting delivered without pain, all identical weighing 5 pounds and 50 centimeters.
all countries having equal distribution of rivers, all flowing with equal quantity of water like the house hold water taps. all cricket matches automatically declared draw at the end!
all sisters and wives looking same , identical, wealthy and healthy.
would'nt that make us all a non-challenging bunch of human objects, in this earth?
one's suffering also gives joy to another person, and thats the beauty of this creation.
but one thing is identical with all, which has no suffering. its atman.
C RAVI
0
C RAVI
0
Even if we don't pray, good things will come to us as per our FATE/Previous Janma Karma. Even if you pray, bad thinks will come to us to pay off our karma.
The present janma Karma may positively/negatively impact us as per our present deeds.
So, we got to pray to help ourself, to refrain from any bad karma in our present janma.
Just prayer's not enough. Prayers are for our own meditaion purposes, for the purpose of keeping ourself composed. Prayers are to force ourself / to acquire positive vibrations and keep our mind and heart clear and human.
01) Do cash charity as possible,
02) At least once in a year contribute for Anna Dhanam (there are many ashrams, temples, orphanages, old age homes etc.)
03) Give away your old cloths (not torned/destroyed ones) to poors
04) Give some sweets and or cloths and or food to poors (as possible) when ever you celebrate.
05) Take maximum efforts to not to hurt any one by your words and actions.
06) Wish and volunteer OR be ready to accept when offered with a chance to do some kind of services in temples.
07) Be a Chanakyan but don't be a Rakshasan (crooked and cruel)
08) Don't support any one for their wrong doing just because they are your near and dear.
09) Don't take revenge on anyone who spoiled you. Just leave things to God. God will take care.
10) Never ever think, plan and act to acquire other's weath, other's wife/husband.
And in all, Ever Be Afraid Of Your Consciousness.
May we all be Blessed to be Human...
Jai Fate!! Jai Free Will!!
Though belated, thanks.
Sri.Shiv Sir, Greetings. I was not ignoring you; I did not want to discuss that topic with any intensity. Kind of, needed a break from that topic. That's all.
All I said was 'Even a nincompoop like me would never put anyone in harm's way, least of all a child' in post #52, that is if I am a creator. My point was, it may not be 'Godly' of God to be vengeful, to 'punish' creations with physical and or psychological disabilities.
I did not say anywhere about creating 'identical'.
I don't about you, one's suffering does not give joy to me; for that matter, it does not give joy to others members too. How can one's suffering give joy to 'God'? Are you caling such suffering as 'beauty of this creation?'; then such a creator needs his/her/its head examined. So far I have only seen people with Bipolar disorder combined with psychotic behaviour enjoy others suffering.
I don't think you are too clear. If you say Atman doesn't suffer, then what is the point of bringing forward past incarnation's mistakes and dole out punishments for those past mistakes? We know, the body in this generation does not know why it gets punished; from your quote,the whole exercise is pointless, since Atman does not suffer. It doesn't really make sense.
So, in my opinion, either there is no creator; or if there is such a creator, that creator needs a therapy with the psychologists/psychiatrists ASAP.
Cheers!
tks
0
Sri Narayan -
It has been hard to keep up with all the posts and identify important ones for me. I know you posted these questions a while ago and are probably satisfied with all the discussions to the point that this thread may be winding down. Let me share my brief thoughts on this topic that you correctly observe has fascinated opponents and proponents.
First, no one knows and cannot claim to know what happens to any being after death or if any of us had any existence before birth. So this theory of Karma is but a model relying on an objectively unverifiable belief system but claimed to be subjectively validated assuming the subject understand the full aspect of this model. In my understanding, this is a complex model and your questions, particularly the last one underscores this point.
The main questions then are:
1. Do we understand this model fully and be able to explain phenomena we observe in a satisfactory manner without contradictions in what we observe in day to day life? For example it would seem unacceptable and even incorrect to think that when a large number of people simultaneously die a tragic death (e.g., Tsunami events, 9/11/2001 event where many died jumping off of World Trade Center) that they all somehow 'deserved to die' based on some past Karma. This complex Karma model does not require this to be true though I have known many with flimsy knowledge of the model explain such event away with simplistic ideas. My point is that to validate or invalidate any of this and to see if the model is correct (within its scope of axioms and assumptions) one has to first understand the richness of this model.
2. In my view - who cares that there is a model - complex or simple -is it useful here and now as we go thorough our life.
Your questions are phrased in terms of a 'God' - so let me share my thoughts on this point.
While a concept of personal Isvara has been useful to millions of people to achieve peace of mind in the face of many hidden variables, being that it is subjective it can never be proven in an objective sense. (All my issues with religion center around theologies (including those of unorganized faithfuls who practice atheism under the name of 'logic' ) especially when they spend time trying to convert others or belittle others. I have respect for people that pray to their Isvara regardless of their religion especially if they are able to deal with their issues better in life.)
At an objective level all we have and what we are able discern with sense organs and reasoning capacity is that there seem to be a set of laws that are operating. If they seem to 'fail' then we may end up discovering another law that augments the previous understanding. In that sense laws of physics, laws of Physiology, biological systems, etc to name a few are infallible and could be considered as a personification of Iswara. After all the universe as we observe is intelligently put together, this intelligence reflected in any phenomena we observe. Random systems are very predictable - otherwise we could not have a field of statistics or statistical mechanics. Chaos is understandable in terms of strange attractors. So intelligence of laws could be a model for an impersonal Iswara.
When there is a notion of a 'limited' free will experienced by us (for example I chose to spend time to respond to this and I could have chosen any other activity) and there are sets if laws that hold the system together then there has to he a need for a concept of Karma. Free will is only free when one is allowed to use or abuse or disuse (like some abuse their freedom in this forum
)When abuse is possible the system has to react when the abuse threatens the constitution of the system held by a set of infallible laws. Otherwise the system will not survive.
There is no reason why the 'reaction' to abuse for example has to be instantaneous. It is hard to define exactly what the time frame constitute as instantaneous. If the universe is 14 billion years old then reaction to our action (within this model) in a few years in our life time or within few million years could be considered instantaneous.
Besides there is an assumption in your question and that is the idea that time as we experience is absolute. What is 'then and there' depends on the frame of reference based on our understanding of the physical world.
There was nice article in Scientific American in May 2010 that begins to show time is not necessary to describe any physical phenomena. I found the description interesting because current understanding of 'time' is more in alignment with subjective (Vedic) view of time. I dont want to get into a detailed debate on this but as a subscriber I have a pdf version of this article and can email anyone that is interested. Also stories in Yoga Vasishtam deal with time being not absolute. My point is not to prove that Vedas describe science as we know (which is not true in my view) but that conceptually the ideas of time and space are aligned with current view we have come to understand in the last 100 years.
So 'impersonal God' in the form of 'Dharma-Karma' laws acts - there is only action and reaction, they are relatively instantaneous depending on a point of view. We have no control over this 'law' anymore than we have control over experience of Gravity.
The only approach then is learn the model and see if it is useful in our life.
There is no punishment or reward - only action and reaction that will go on 'forever'.
We did not get to choose our gender, home, parents, height, weight, our gene pool, our level of intelligence and capacities, etc.
We do not get to change this 'action - reaction' effect either. Free will creates new action and thereby new reaction. In a simplistic model, past karmas are expressions of reactions to assertion of free will in the 'past'!
There is an assumption in your question that is made universally by everyone , but wrong.
We did not create this body, we do not control how any of the physiology works, we do not control how our brain or more abstractly how our mind works. We could make body parts but we do so by enabling the natural laws to take place, we do not create new laws. 'Our' Body and Mind are parts of nature and subject to natural laws (impersonal Isvara) . This is explicitly Visible when we 'die' and the body is seen to disintegrate in nature.
Since we are able to objectify our body and mind, they are objects and therefore not the Subject ( I)! However in day today experience we think we are this physical beings (where we equate ourselves (subject) with the items we objectify (body, mind)). When we see a chair (an item objectified by us), we do not say I am chair
.. If we do then we have to go to Agra I would prefer to take this up only if you are interested under a Philosophy section.
Could not be more brief - I am bit of an extrovert!
Regards
sravna
Well-known member
Just a paraphrase of what I said earlier. You cannot escape fate as long as you are in the physical world. Fate is tied to space and time. Even God if he takes an avatar is bound by the influences of navagrahas and therefore fate. You get freewill once you attain moksha.
BTW the previous post by Shri.TKS is a good logical explanation
BTW the previous post by Shri.TKS is a good logical explanation
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tks
0
Sravana -
Unfortunately the concept of Kismat from other religions have migrated into the Hindu thinking in the use of words like Vidhi and our actions to subordinate ourselves to this Vidhi!
All metaphors and Drshtantas in Vedas do not teach effect of past Karmas as the only thing acting on us only but that we are endowed with free will here & now to influence the outcome.
So it is not 'either or' but the conjunction is And.
The luck factor is tied to effect of asserting of free will in the past (this life or prior lives in the model) while our results are determined by our actions and assertion of free will here and now.
You get 'free' not 'free will' in attaining the knowledge which is 'like' someone waking up from a dream and realizing that none of the actions in the dream actually apply to that person.
Regards
sravna
Well-known member
Shri TKS,
"which is 'like' someone waking up from a dream and realizing that none of the actions in the dream actually apply to that person."
and also our inability to have done anything about it. We went through our fate,.Thus when we wake up we realize we had no control over it. Also real freewill is sort of an equivalent of omnipotence which is what you become after liberation.
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sravna
Well-known member
The yard stick I use to gauge when freewill is exercised is when you are in total control over what you do or not affceted by maya. Because when affected by maya, self is not acting on its choice but being led by maya. So I am doubtful if freewill can be exercised before enlightenment.
tks
0
Sri Sravana -
We cannot do anything about past actions (of free will) and therefore the reaction is what we have to deal with.
However we are endowed with free will here and now (without waking up from any dream or ignorance). The result is determined by 'vector addition' by our actions due to free will here and now as well as action of Prarabdha Karma per the model.
In some cases the past Karma cannot significantly alter the outcome of what we seek if our assertion of free will here and now is strong.
So all I say as a matter of practical suggestion is for us to focus on what we can accomplish by our free will here and now while recognizing that the outcome we seek is determined literally by million other factors beyond our control, one of which is the effect of our past Karma.
With this recognition without any talk of Moksha which is a completely different topic , we can approach life with an emotional maturity that indicates humility (knowing our action alone cannot cause the outcomes we desire) and courage (that we recognize and are aligned with laws of nature including Karmic laws).
Here is a great post that I came across that explains this point better than I can.
Regards
C RAVI
0
.
Lovely post Sri Sravna...
This is what exactly I keep pondering on. As far as I am concerned, I have no doubt and have no sense of feeling dichotomy between Fate and Free Will. I believe in Maya, I believe in Fate and I believe in Free Will. For me all goes well together with clear realization/feel (to my level) of the each.
I strongly believe that Free Will can not be exercised independent to its force. I believe that my sub conscious mind leads me perfectly towards understanding where I stand to exercise my Free Will and accept my Fate.
If I ponder deep into the subject of Fate and Free Will, in my day to day life, I would just be convinced by myself that my free will is nothing but the outcome of my realization of Maya and Fate.
Yes, like you, I am too doubtful if Free Will can be exercised before enlightenment..
But with my limited knowledge I understand that, to realize the Free Will in full, we got to be as enlightened as Sri Ramana Maharishi, Sri Sheshadri Swamigal and alike
tks
0
One is free to believe any model of their definition.
The Karma-Dharma model is very specific.
There are two phrases at play - 'Free as in "Moksha" ' and 'Free will'
Those that are 'Free' do not have (and do not need) 'Free Will'.
Conversely those who are 'Not Free' which includes most of us, there is an experience of 'Free Will'.
The above point is alluded to by the third question in Sri Narayan's first post in this thread.
In the end, what matters for most of us who are not enlightened is a simple guideline that says - do you best to attain what you want within the confines of Dharma .
In that sense, a person of high personal integrity, one who is compassionate and who believes in Atheism and a strong commitment to 'doing the right thing' is far more likely to assert their free will and be successful than those who think they are 'God fearing' and understand this 'Karma-Dharma' theory partially yielding to the 'Vidhi' every time a problem comes in their life.
sravna
Well-known member
One might ask if one is acting according to maya how would he be held responsible for his actions. We can explain this by saying that the purpose of life is to learn , to learn that if you need to be in self control. So again how can one be in self control when under the influence of maya? Your innate qualities and environment in which you are born help in this.
These two factors could make you either do good or bad. But the point is, the choice of the environment and the innate abilities which make us dispend or add on to our karmic debt is beyond our control.
btw, the reason I think we the effect of our actions are felt in future births is because contrary results would have been obtained in the birth in which the deed was done. In the birth in which the karmic debt is dispensed, the right results happen. The way it happens would make the soul believe what happened in the previous birth did not reflect reality but what happened in this birth does. What better and firmer way to make us disbelieve in wrong than by first making it think it is right and then disproving it?
These two factors could make you either do good or bad. But the point is, the choice of the environment and the innate abilities which make us dispend or add on to our karmic debt is beyond our control.
btw, the reason I think we the effect of our actions are felt in future births is because contrary results would have been obtained in the birth in which the deed was done. In the birth in which the karmic debt is dispensed, the right results happen. The way it happens would make the soul believe what happened in the previous birth did not reflect reality but what happened in this birth does. What better and firmer way to make us disbelieve in wrong than by first making it think it is right and then disproving it?
sravna
Well-known member
Freewill is the freedom to choose our actions. This definition is good only for the physical world. In the spiritual realm we wouldn't have choices to choose from as it is a timeless realm but only the experience of being free from constraints something akin to having freedom to choose and always having made the right choice
sravna
Well-known member
Dear Shri TKS,
I am writing this in response to your views on free will in some other thread. I thought it is appropriate to discuss it in this thread. I would like to elaborate my views on this.
Among other things you said:
1. Ability to abuse is required for genuine freedom
2. We need freewill to gain knowledge and recognize the nature of true self.
The one who abuses dharma and is taking the wrong path is like a man in darkness. The one who is led out of darkness into light or when he turns to the spiritual path the light seems too glaring for him. In other words he errs on the positive side. Too much compassion and similar positive emotions. Here too he is led as he is blinded in a different way. But now he is on the right side. Then he realizes excesses are bad and blinds him. He realizes the need for balance and sees the reality.
So all through the journey of the souls it is necessary to lead the souls if they are to learn the right lessons and eventually get liberated. That is the reason freewill is not an option in the physical world.
I am writing this in response to your views on free will in some other thread. I thought it is appropriate to discuss it in this thread. I would like to elaborate my views on this.
Among other things you said:
1. Ability to abuse is required for genuine freedom
2. We need freewill to gain knowledge and recognize the nature of true self.
The one who abuses dharma and is taking the wrong path is like a man in darkness. The one who is led out of darkness into light or when he turns to the spiritual path the light seems too glaring for him. In other words he errs on the positive side. Too much compassion and similar positive emotions. Here too he is led as he is blinded in a different way. But now he is on the right side. Then he realizes excesses are bad and blinds him. He realizes the need for balance and sees the reality.
So all through the journey of the souls it is necessary to lead the souls if they are to learn the right lessons and eventually get liberated. That is the reason freewill is not an option in the physical world.
tks
0
Sravana-ji -
Not sure you were expecting a response from me.
1. Yes, true freedom in any context means freedom (not ability necessarily) to abuse, disuse or use the privilege granted. In USA freedom of expression means one is free to burn the flag even if many may find it unacceptable. ACLU which is a liberal guardian of freedom of speech has often appointed and paid for lawyers (sometime Jewish) to defend the expression of hatred towards Jews.
In this forum itself there is room for abuse. The privacy is accorded to anyone. But integrity while expected by members is not enforceable. So it is possible for someone who is a non-Hindu to come here, not reveal any of their true background voluntarily but use the privilege to belittle religious expressions or teachings.
2. To the extent we can discern animals do not seem to have free will. They respond to needs and act according to their nature. When I was growing up in New Delhi I once saw a group of cows charing across the streets. We were small and ran away but one of the cows hurt a small girl who was only 4 years old. I dont think the cow that did the damage felt any remorse and in our model will not face any bad karma
Without being endowed with free will the possibility of getting past our ignorance (which is our initial condition) to realize our true nature is not possible.
- You can recognize that you are endowed with certain free will; you chose to write this message, you make decisions everyday - some come true , some do not. But it does not diminish your ability to assert your free will. An animal does not have this capacity. You even have the free will to deny to yourself that you lack capacity for free will
- There are really no 'right' or 'wrong' in an absolute sense! What determines what is right? If you say - Dharma - I will say how did you figure that out?
Why should a person really turn to a spiritual path? What does spiritual path anyway? is it reading about some scriptures, or going to some temples?
Why must one do any of this? To me words like 'spiritual' is vague - it has too many meanings depending on who you ask.
- You are making up a theory about some 'light' that is blinding. You have the free will to make up anything you want but there is no basis for this. Also what does err on positive side anyway? Who determined what is positive, negative and errors? Where is the mid point? Some scripture can unconditionally tell you what is right or wrong. Remember our Vedas do not have any commandments like the Biblical religions. (There is a profound reason for this and is a big topic by itself in my view.)
- Why is compassion so great? It is the same Iswara that created opposite of compassion too and that exists too in the world in abundance. By the way, in Gita - Lord Krishna says he is manifested as desire in all beings. That is an unconditional statement. He is there in the desires of a person wanting to go on a pilgrimage or wanting a nice car as well as desires of a pedophile or a serial killer! If you say Iswara makes up lower level and higher level beings then the whole thing make no sense since there is no reason why Iswara must create such good and bad things in life.
- Why should Iswara create souls, bind them and then provide a light so blinding that the soul is led to do right things and then grant that soul a way to be 'liberated'? If there is none other than Iswara in the world it would be nonsensical do to thing like this to the souls that he or she creates!
At the same time there is this Maha Vakya - Tat Tvam Asi ! It is unconditional. It does not say you will become or anything about lower and higher beings. It says you already are Free here now!
Given the various messages we see, my point is that we tend to make things up to deal with apparent contradictions.
If there are not proper answers which reconciles all these ideas then when 'really bad things happen to good people' one is driven to anger and declare all these to be nonsense.
In the mean time - it is lot easier to recognize free will by your own life experience. You have the free will to make things up and deny your free will experience.
There is no other world other than the physical world that we perceive. As human being you are endowed with free will in matters related to living our life.
sravna
Well-known member
Sravana-ji -
Not sure you were expecting a response from me.
1. Yes, true freedom in any context means freedom (not ability necessarily) to abuse, disuse or use the privilege granted. In USA freedom of expression means one is free to burn the flag even if many may find it unacceptable. ACLU which is a liberal guardian of freedom of speech has often appointed and paid for lawyers (sometime Jewish) to defend the expression of hatred towards Jews.
In this forum itself there is room for abuse. The privacy is accorded to anyone. But integrity while expected by members is not enforceable. So it is possible for someone who is a non-Hindu to come here, not reveal any of their true background voluntarily but use the privilege to belittle religious expressions or teachings.
2. To the extent we can discern animals do not seem to have free will. They respond to needs and act according to their nature. When I was growing up in New Delhi I once saw a group of cows charing across the streets. We were small and ran away but one of the cows hurt a small girl who was only 4 years old. I dont think the cow that did the damage felt any remorse and in our model will not face any bad karma
Without being endowed with free will the possibility of getting past our ignorance (which is our initial condition) to realize our true nature is not possible.
- You can recognize that you are endowed with certain free will; you chose to write this message, you make decisions everyday - some come true , some do not. But it does not diminish your ability to assert your free will. An animal does not have this capacity. You even have the free will to deny to yourself that you lack capacity for free will
- There are really no 'right' or 'wrong' in an absolute sense! What determines what is right? If you say - Dharma - I will say how did you figure that out?
Why should a person really turn to a spiritual path? What does spiritual path anyway? is it reading about some scriptures, or going to some temples?
Why must one do any of this? To me words like 'spiritual' is vague - it has too many meanings depending on who you ask.
- You are making up a theory about some 'light' that is blinding. You have the free will to make up anything you want but there is no basis for this. Also what does err on positive side anyway? Who determined what is positive, negative and errors? Where is the mid point? Some scripture can unconditionally tell you what is right or wrong. Remember our Vedas do not have any commandments like the Biblical religions. (There is a profound reason for this and is a big topic by itself in my view.)
- Why is compassion so great? It is the same Iswara that created opposite of compassion too and that exists too in the world in abundance. By the way, in Gita - Lord Krishna says he is manifested as desire in all beings. That is an unconditional statement. He is there in the desires of a person wanting to go on a pilgrimage or wanting a nice car as well as desires of a pedophile or a serial killer! If you say Iswara makes up lower level and higher level beings then the whole thing make no sense since there is no reason why Iswara must create such good and bad things in life.
- Why should Iswara create souls, bind them and then provide a light so blinding that the soul is led to do right things and then grant that soul a way to be 'liberated'? If there is none other than Iswara in the world it would be nonsensical do to thing like this to the souls that he or she creates!
At the same time there is this Maha Vakya - Tat Tvam Asi ! It is unconditional. It does not say you will become or anything about lower and higher beings. It says you already are Free here now!
Given the various messages we see, my point is that we tend to make things up to deal with apparent contradictions.
If there are not proper answers which reconciles all these ideas then when 'really bad things happen to good people' one is driven to anger and declare all these to be nonsense.
In the mean time - it is lot easier to recognize free will by your own life experience. You have the free will to make things up and deny your free will experience.
There is no other world other than the physical world that we perceive. As human being you are endowed with free will in matters related to living our life.
Dear Shri TKS,
In my view we first need to get the big picture right . Then everything falls into place. That is the importance of understanding higher philosophies like advaita etc. I have given my views on the big picture in a different thread on advaita. Let me briefly discuss that here.
Non-dualism is the only tenable hypothesis. Everthing else is self contradictory. If you want to debate on this let us do so in a different thread. Now assuming the above, the purpose of existence of the physical world is mainly twofold. It shows how the ultimate truth manifests in brahman or the higher reality through learning in the physical world. It is just playing out of the expereinces. The second reason is for these expereinces to be blissful for the higher reality. The higher reality feels these expereinces in a unified way which causes that bliss. If you want to discuss further on the above points too, I am willing.
So there is a reason why physical world exists and why it is inseparable from the spiritual world. When you think that the physical expereinces or events are thus the expansion of the spiritual essence you would conclude there is nothing called freewill in the physical world. Everything that happens here in this kalpa and in all the kalpas is a part of experience of brahman in the timeless realm.
tks
0
Sri Sravana -
There is nothing to debate. For one I feel you are making things up
If you are happy with the model you have in your mind that is fine - I asked you specific questions for you to think about if what you are making up makes sense to you. If it does, that is great.
sravna
Well-known member
Sri Sravana -
There is nothing to debate. For one I feel you are making things up
If you are happy with the model you have in your mind that is fine - I asked you specific questions for you to think about if what you are making up makes sense to you. If it does, that is great.
Dear Shri TKS,
You may say that I am expressing my point of view and that you do not agree, that is fine. You are free not to give reasons for not agreeing with my pov. But saying that I am making things up gives me an impression that you are not willing to consider pov other than your own.
tks
0
Sri Sravana -
I dont have a POV, I dont think I am trying to come up with a POV.
If I were to discuss politics or some other topics, POV is significant.
Here we are talking about subject matter that described universal truths. There is only one yardstick - either we have a correct understanding or we dont.
One way to find out if we have a correct understanding is to not make things up that is not described, and that there is no contradiction in the understanding.
The reason to take this approach is because this subject matter has been most scrutinized over centuries and there is not contradictions in what it teaches. I approached the subject with great deal of skepticism and I have not found contradictions yet. I am still a learner and student.
In my understanding of your posts you mentioned many things that are not in our Upanishads but you have the free will and right to believe anything.
I asked you a number of questions to challenge your understanding in post #96. You have not answered them - you dont have to.
My point is if you are clear about the model you have in your mind that is great, there is no debate possible or needed.
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