Fate and Free-will

[B.Krishnamurthy]

Share:

Facebook X (Twitter) LinkedIn WhatsApp Email Share Link

In many legal documents,one is required to declare and sign, where this 'OF my own free will' is compulsorily added.Does this come under 'Fate' or 'Freewill'

 

[renuka]

Dear Renuka,

The below is the extact from your post under the thread - "How much of a hyporcrite we all are"



I have 2 doubts. Hope you or any one can enlighten me.

1) Many practical/intelligent/successful people say that if you apply your brain and efforts properly, you can predict where and how you would be in future and thats how we are now here, dwelling on a higher sumit.

I want to know as whether medical advancement could prove it? And if anything can be done to the brains of the kids (based of the genetic qualities of the kid's successful/intelligent parents and their full efforts to equip their kids) who are not at all able to grasp education and excell in life; so that the child can be as briliant as his/her parents or can go even higher?

2) Non technical/scientific -

We may say for instance...

Coincidence is : I'm talking to my friend on the phone and we happen to be in the same mall!

Fate is : I accidentally spill soda on a stranger, we strike up a conversation, and end up being married forever.

Based on the above example, want to know as how can and whether we can accept the concept of FATE, that is considered as imaginary by many.

Just a curiosity...

Cute questions Ravi..

1)Ok first question.See medically we are told that if we follow a well balanced lifestyle of moderation we have a higher chance of leading a longer and healthier life,But you see Ravi, for example I lead a moderate life..Only 1 major meal a day and other meals mainly fruits and milk,regular exercise etc but there is no guarantee I wont get knocked down by a lorry when I cross a road and some guy with cancer might actually survive it and lead a longer life.

So future is only a speculation nothing more.

Ravi regarding whether brains of kids can be altered..why do you want to alter them in the first place? Do you really think that book knowledge intelligence is the only answer to our existence?
I feel unless something is Pathological and Life threatening dont mess with nature.Nature knows best.

2)Your second question is really good.Ravi I feel Fate itself evolves with time,place and person.
Those ancient days..some guy will be riding on a horse and he will hear some girl singing and her voice can travel as far from Kashmir to Kanya Kumari and he follows her voice and sees a girl under a water fall and they fall in love.

Some used to rely on pigeons to exchange love notes and then later relied on Mr Postman.

Now days why go to a mall..even in Yahoo Messenger,Google talk,Skype itself many fall in love and get married.

That way we can also say when a married man or a married woman falls for anyone else its also Fate.Just say a married guy spills soda on another married woman Fate might unite them too isnt it or is Fate here strictly monogamous?

 

[Yamaka]

What's my Fate and my Free Will?

As I have said it before many times, I just don't believe in the Gods that man created with their Holy Books of Vedas/Puranas, Koran, Bible and Torah etc. etc.

My Fate is not sealed by anybody... I am not destined to fail or succeed.. those are the words of Religious Orthodoxy which I oppose for a long time.

However, my parents gave their haploid (23 chromosomes) DNA each. At the time of fertilization, and soon thereafter so many things happened just before the fertilized egg started dividing as a diploid DNA (46 chromosomes); the process called Genetic Recombination where many known and unknown things happened... my FATE here is partially sealed. The fertilzed egg divides and makes 2,4,8,16 cell stage, each cell is capable of growing as a full adult - hence called embryonic stem cells.

Then differentiation occurs and the baby is formed... in all the environment of the mothers' womb is very important.. here again my FATE is partially sealed.

Nature (my diploid DNA) and Nurture (my environment) together partially have sealed my FATE.

Very similar, though not identical, FATE was sealed in many kids' case from my village.

Then why didn't more of them take the path I took? I call that as due to my FREE WILL.

I started my journey with odds stacked against me 1: million, perhaps.. but I always realized that I must work harder than anybody around me, I must sleep only 6 hours a day, I must always be competitive to succeed etc etc... this when I told many of my classmates, who will ridicule me and say, "A crazy nut".

In my High School, I always wanted to be the top scoring student.. if I don't get the top spot, I will curse myself... which my parents never insisted; what all they would say is "Be a good student, don't get into trouble with anybody" that's all.

Therefore, I believe something in me - my personality, perhaps, said that I must be hyper-competitive to succeed in life.

Once, in English class, I translated a passage to Tamil and the whole class and the English teacher (the Headmaster) also did... When each one was read openly, mine was considered the best even beating the Headmaster, who grinned and asked me
"How did you do it?"

"Incredible" he muttered... all happened in the class room.

The same hard work and hyper-competitiveness in me force me to be FEARLESS and go against any and all odds.... I admit one day I may fall down harder or may not!

That's my personality, my FATE and my FREE WILL, I submit.

I expect critique of this attitude... the "anally compulsive" attitude of mine!

Cheers.

 

[C RAVI]

Thanks for your reply Renuka. My reply in blue..

Cute questions Ravi..

1)Ok first question.See medically we are told that if we follow a well balanced lifestyle of moderation we have a higher chance of leading a longer and healthier life,But you see Ravi, for example I lead a moderate life..Only 1 major meal a day and other meals mainly fruits and milk,regular exercise etc but there is no guarantee I wont get knocked down by a lorry when I cross a road and some guy with cancer might actually survive it and lead a longer life.

So future is only a speculation nothing more.

Ravi regarding whether brains of kids can be altered..why do you want to alter them in the first place? Do you really think that book knowledge intelligence is the only answer to our existence?
I feel unless something is Pathological and Life threatening dont mess with nature.Nature knows best.

- I am not at all interestied in altering children's brain to match with their parent's briliant brains. I just asked on behalf of highly qualified/intelligent/shrewd/successful many parents who are worried of their children's incapabilities in many ways and don't believe in FATE. (obviously every parent won't give up in terms of FATE and would do their best to train up their wards. Still, want to know how such parents can be satisfeid scientifically in this technological world?)


2)Your second question is really good.Ravi I feel Fate itself evolves with time,place and person.
Those ancient days..some guy will be riding on a horse and he will hear some girl singing and her voice can travel as far from Kashmir to Kanya Kumari and he follows her voice and sees a girl under a water fall and they fall in love.

Some used to rely on pigeons to exchange love notes and then later relied on Mr Postman.

Now days why go to a mall..even in Yahoo Messenger,Google talk,Skype itself many fall in love and get married.

That way we can also say when a married man or a married woman falls for anyone else its also Fate.Just say a married guy spills soda on another married woman Fate might unite them too isnt it or is Fate here strictly monogamous?

Off course, a married guy having such a incident may be fatted to elope with another married lady as per the FATE of that man and his wife...However in such a case a person has to question himself/herself as who is he/she? If he/she has the consciousness that he/she is married, committed and is rersponsible towards his/her spouse and family, than he/she can escape from his/her own LUST. If still happens, than certainly it's FATE of both the doer and the spouse at the receiving end.

 

[renuka]

Dear Meghavarshini,

I remember in a thread which was started by Sarvajit you had written a response saying Jeevatma is eternally wedded to Paramatma..i remember reading that.

Ok having said that why do you still hesitate to enter a temple or prayer room during menses..can we dislodge Paramatma from us on the days we menstruate?
No isnt it!! So why the restriction to enter a man made structure eg temple & prayer room? So I guess its a man made rule too mostly related to hygiene which is not really a concern these days with improved sanitary conditions.

 

[Raji Ram]

Dear Renu,

Too tired? I think your post #30 should be in another thread!

Raji Ram

 

[kunjuppu]

ravi & renuka quotes below: Your second question is really good.Ravi I feel Fate itself evolves with time,place and person.
Those ancient days..some guy will be riding on a horse and he will hear some girl singing and her voice can travel as far from Kashmir to Kanya Kumari and he follows her voice and sees a girl under a water fall and they fall in love.

Some used to rely on pigeons to exchange love notes and then later relied on Mr Postman.

Now days why go to a mall..even in Yahoo Messenger,Google talk,Skype itself many fall in love and get married.

That way we can also say when a married man or a married woman falls for anyone else its also Fate.Just say a married guy spills soda on another married woman Fate might unite them too isnt it or is Fate here strictly monogamous?

Off course, a married guy having such a incident may be fatted to elope with another married lady as per the FATE of that man and his wife...However in such a case a person has to question himself/herself as who is he/she? If he/she has the consciousness that he/she is married, committed and is rersponsible towards his/her spouse and family, than he/she can escape from his/her own LUST. If still happens, than certainly it's FATE of both the doer and the spouse at the receiving end.

here is a true story, fictionalized in the novel, 'ancient promises'

jaishree misra (nee nair) is a indlich malayali author. not sure if her lifestory is fate or what?

her father was in the air force, and while posted in new delhi, she fell in love with her neighbour, a north indian.

the family disapproved, and soon she was packed off to the south, and quickly into an arranged marriage.

soon a daughter was born. the daughter has severe learning disabilities.

like tambrams, the nairs, too apparently are ashamed and hide their handicapped. moreover, the in-laws blamed her for producing a 'damaged' child (i have seen this in my own family and friends' too).

jaishree went to england with her daughter, leaving her husband & family, with a view to finding better education and health care for her daughter.

in london she met her childhood love again. he had remained unmarried.

well, there is a happy ending. she ended up from jaishree nair to jaishree misra.

is this fate? free choice? or what?

 

[C RAVI]

I expect critique of this attitude... the "anally compulsive" attitude of mine!

Cheers.

Shri Yamaka,

I bow my head before your attitude and fulfillment. For sure, a highly self confident and talented person like you would have his/her success and happiness throught out life.

IMHO, there can't be a single negative critique to your attitude and belief.

A person who realizes and believes in FATE can be well criticised and even humilated for his failures and the person himself/herself would be in a pathatic situation. But without any doubt, there would not be any one who would be taunting such a great attitude, killer instict and talents that you got all your life.

You have a personality that deserves recognition and acceptance by any one, IMHO..

 

[C RAVI]

ravi & renuka quotes below: Your second question is really good.Ravi I feel Fate itself evolves with time,place and person.
Those ancient days..some guy will be riding on a horse and he will hear some girl singing and her voice can travel as far from Kashmir to Kanya Kumari and he follows her voice and sees a girl under a water fall and they fall in love.

Some used to rely on pigeons to exchange love notes and then later relied on Mr Postman.

Now days why go to a mall..even in Yahoo Messenger,Google talk,Skype itself many fall in love and get married.

That way we can also say when a married man or a married woman falls for anyone else its also Fate.Just say a married guy spills soda on another married woman Fate might unite them too isnt it or is Fate here strictly monogamous?

Off course, a married guy having such a incident may be fatted to elope with another married lady as per the FATE of that man and his wife...However in such a case a person has to question himself/herself as who is he/she? If he/she has the consciousness that he/she is married, committed and is rersponsible towards his/her spouse and family, than he/she can escape from his/her own LUST. If still happens, than certainly it's FATE of both the doer and the spouse at the receiving end.

here is a true story, fictionalized in the novel, 'ancient promises'

jaishree misr (nee nair) is a indlich malayali author. not sure if her lifestory is fate or what?

her father was in the air force, and while posted in new delhi, she fell in love with her neighbour, a north indian.

the family disapproved, and soon she was packed off to the south, and quickly into an arranged marriage.

soon a daughter was born. the daughter has severe learning disabilities.

like tambrams, the nairs, too apparently are ashamed and hide their handicapped. moreover, the in-laws blamed her for producing a 'damaged' child (i have seen this in my own family and friends' too).

jaishree went to england with her daughter, leaving her husband & family, with a view to finding better education and health care for her daughter.

in london she met her childhood love again. he had remained unmarried.

well, there is a happy ending. she ended up from jaishree nair to jaishree misra.

is this fate? free choice? or what?

Sri Kunjuppu,

The girl in the story has not eloped with other guy, leaving her supportive/kind hearted husband and inlaws. What she did was right and the believers of FATE would say that, she had a Good FATE to her favor after lots of ordeal.

With my limitted understanding, I would say that there are many such cases. Many strange and unexpected happenings takes place and the results would be ultimately found to be the actions of we humans. That's the fact also. We live and see others living around us. So certainly each actions/incidents are bound to be the actions of we humans (other than natural calamities).

Thus, IMHO, I don't think its so easy to convience the two groups with two different belief and understanding, to accept either one (FATE / Freewill).


At he most, I could conclude for myself that, growing children should never be made to realize the concept of FATE by the believing parents.

 

[Nara]

....Then why didn't more of them take the path I took? I call that as due to my FREE WILL..

Y, if the theory of evolution is to be believed, which I do, the process of the two half-dna's combining to form a new one, is one with a certain degree of randomness. Otherwise, if the two-halves can only combine in one way all the children of the same two parents will be 100% genetically identical. The natural randomness in the process plays tricks and certain alleles are dominant and certain others are recessive. So, a persuasive case can be made that your drive to succeed against all odds, which I applaud, is a result of this natural process endowing your dna with alleles for such success rather than your own free and indomitable will.

Cheers!

 

[Yamaka]

Y, if the theory of evolution is to be believed, which I do, the process of the two half-dna's combining to form a new one, is one with a certain degree of randomness. Otherwise, if the two-halves can only combine in one way all the children of the same two parents will be 100% genetically identical. The natural randomness in the process plays tricks and certain alleles are dominant and certain others are recessive. So, a persuasive case can be made that your drive to succeed against all odds, which I applaud, is a result of this natural process endowing your dna with alleles for such success rather than your own free and indomitable will.

Cheers!

Dear Nara:

We need more data about the lives of "Identical Twins" raised in different environments and "Fraternal Twins" raised in the same and different environments etc to get more insights into the process of Genetic Recomibination and the roles of different environments.

However, your assertion is quite possible.

But, my guess is the so-called Genetic Factor(s) and Environmental Factor(s) all constitute about 40%-50% of the personality and the rest goes to "Free Will" part of it.

My thesis is one can change the "Fate and Destiny" as determined by genes and environment by your Free Will, if you dearly want to.

Perhaps, this is the basis of the Criminal Justice System and the Crime and Punishment...

Cheers.

Regards

Y

ps. Perhaps, we need to define the term "Free Will" first. To me this is simply a deep desire going against all odds to achieve something normally considered "not possible"!

If you trace human history, very many things were considered "not possible", but still we made tremendous progress since at least the time of Jesus... why? I believe some of us at least didn't want to take what was given, but believed strongly - by their Free Will - better things are quite possible; they persevered and "invented" and "discovered" very many modern ideas and things. I am just blathering and meandering here....Lol.

Others may intervene and chime in please.

 

[Yamaka]

Shri Yamaka,

I bow my head before your attitude and fulfillment. For sure, a highly self confident and talented person like you would have his/her success and happiness throught out life.

IMHO, there can't be a single negative critique to your attitude and belief.

A person who realizes and believes in FATE can be well criticised and even humilated for his failures and the person himself/herself would be in a pathatic situation. But without any doubt, there would not be any one who would be taunting such a great attitude, killer instict and talents that you got all your life.

You have a personality that deserves recognition and acceptance by any one, IMHO..

Dear Ravi:

I have lots of critics in my circle... they all wish "When, the Game will be over for Y?"

Many have predicted, "One day the Almighty will punish him for not praying... not raising kids in a religious way... one day he will lose everything has has... just wait and watch".

I told those people "Bad things could happen to me and YOU - the Orthodox/Traditional people who worship Gods all day everyday... I may stumble and break my knees... but believe me I will always try hard to stand up and walk like a man.... I will not cry and disappear into darkness"

"I promise you...." I believe this attitude comes out of sheer belief that I can fix things, if they go bad--- Just keep working hard, very hard to get what you want!!!

Cheers.

ps. I always talk about my life - not to "advertise" me to the world. Not blowing my own horn.... This is to counter an age old argument "Oh, whatever Y says is all just THEORY - Pipe Dream, just can't be practiced.... one just can't succeed if you believe him.... you only invite sorrow and failure... for God is everything"

I want to talk about what's feasible only!

 

[renuka]

Dear Renu,

Too tired? I think your post #30 should be in another thread!

Raji Ram

Ya you are right...It was midnight here when I wrote that post..
thanks..i will paste it in the other thread.

renu

 

[renuka]

Dear Ravi,

you wrote:-

I am not at all interestied in altering children's brain to match with their parent's briliant brains. I just asked on behalf of highly qualified/intelligent/shrewd/successful many parents who are worried of their children's incapabilities in many ways and don't believe in FATE. (obviously every parent won't give up in terms of FATE and would do their best to [COLOR=#DA7911 !important][FONT=inherit !important][COLOR=#DA7911 !important][FONT=inherit !important]train[/FONT][/FONT][/COLOR][/COLOR] up their wards. Still, want to know how such parents can be satisfeid scientifically in this technological world?)

You will be suprised to know that most parents who want to alter their children's ability and "Fate" mostly are outwardly "religous" types.

I cant understand when they claim to be religous yet they seek an astrologer to predict the most favourable time of birth for their unborn child and go in for a
Cesarean Section. I have many relatives who have done this.

They put their unborn child at risk of C section just to play around with time of birth for a more favorable Fate in life.

Then when the child is older..these same parents resort to all sorts of "mind stimulating techniques" usually organized by some profit seeking groups.

So I really wonder what ever happen to their faith in God.They seem not to trust God 100%.

I have seen some atheists who just live with the "whatever will be will be" thinking and rely on sincere hardwork and accepts the outcome.

Thats why I never really consider an Atheist/Agnostic not really having faith in God. Nara anna are you listening?

 

[Nara]

Thats why I never really consider an Atheist/Agnostic not really having faith in God. Nara anna are you listening?

Renu, I am not like Christopher Hitchens, an anti-god. In some ways it would be nice if there is a superior power who takes care of all our wants. But, the reality is, there is no god who cares about our affairs. We have only each other, and isn't that wonderful? We can't just blame our shortcomings on god given fate. All we have is each other, to make the best of it, or the worse of it. Such a realization, IMO, will foster love and compassion, as opposed to organized religion that relies on blind faith to promote superstition, and, foster hatred.

Cheers!

 

[Brahin]

Dear Ravi,

Fate is when a guy spills soda on a girl and Free Will is when she slaps that guy.

 

[kunjuppu]

I have seen some atheists who just live with the "whatever will be will be" thinking and rely on sincere hardwork and accepts the outcome.

Thats why I never really consider an Atheist/Agnostic not really having faith in God.

renu,

i dont understand this logic. are the two statements not contradictory ie the first does not lead to the next. no?

 

[renuka]

renu,

i dont understand this logic. are the two statements not contradictory ie the first does not lead to the next. no?

Dear Kunjs,

When I wrote that line..I was shuttling between the kitchen and my lap top.
I thought while waiting for the food to simmer I can have a Quickie post here.
When I look at the point you brought up on what I wrote..you are right its like a dish without salt I feel. Thank God the lunch i cooked tasted good.

 

[C RAVI]

Dear Kunjs,

When I wrote that line..I was shuttling between the kitchen and my lap top.
I thought while waiting for the food to simmer I can have a Quickie post here.
When I look at the point you brought up on what I wrote..you are right its like a dish without salt I feel. Thank God the lunch i cooked tasted good.

Yes, its like a hungry man was feeded and relieved from starving and gone to death...But it didn't tasted good. And still the hungry man is soo happy and wish the person who feeded him.

 

[zebra16]

Namaste Sri Raghy Sir,

Referring your msg # 7, I am inclined to think that there is some stuff in karma theory. I cannot think of any other reason for the sufferings some kids undergo (for no fault of their own) when they are born as physically or mentally challenged. If there is no "equaliser", I would presume that only the fittest will survive and there would be no room for any living being other than the "fittest" on this earth.

Does not the non-parity in the length of the rope indicate that some are born (and in most probability will be) less equal than others? If not karma, what would be the reason for this disparity?

Regards,

narayan

 

[zebra16]

Shri Nara,

Many of our questions will be answered if we take our sufferings not as a punishment but as the way we learn and mature. It is how our mind finally becomes unaffected by anything and stays balanced.

Sri Sravana Sir,

The problem is none (may be there are exceptions) remember experiences of previous birth, so the sufferings go waste and may be we are committing the same mistakes we had committed in the past. So how can we be thought to be maturing? and maturing for What? If we are not going to be re-born in karma-bhoomi, what is the use of this experience of whole life?

Unless the mind is de-linked with other motor organs (which then makes the living quite useless), how can it remain unaffected? It can perhaps be taught not to react or it can be trained to resign to the situation. But would that be maturity?

Regards,

narayan

 

[Raghy]

Namaste Sri Raghy Sir,

Referring your msg # 7, I am inclined to think that there is some stuff in karma theory. I cannot think of any other reason for the sufferings some kids undergo (for no fault of their own) when they are born as physically or mentally challenged. If there is no "equaliser", I would presume that only the fittest will survive and there would be no room for any living being other than the "fittest" on this earth.

Does not the non-parity in the length of the rope indicate that some are born (and in most probability will be) less equal than others? If not karma, what would be the reason for this disparity?

Regards,

narayan

Sri.Narayan Sir, Greetings.

I am stepping out to go to work; I will address your message in detail tomorrow, please. My message in post #7 is a loaded message. I asked too many questions, drew attention to too many variables. So, kindly bear with me now, please. thanks.

Cheers!

 

[chiller79]

People!!!
Even i hate this theory of karma. We are being punished for which we cannot remember now.
God designed everything in such a way that we cannot question him, and later he will make us realise or convince us or create a situation that everything happened for our own good.
How many of you are here saying that your prayers are not fullfilled in right time ?
We pray for money, job, happiness which we may get after many years not when we desperately want
We pray asking for a baby which we may get only after 5 or 7 years ?
And when we ask great spiritual leaders we get reply that everything happens according to law of karma.
If he is really the almighty why he is not burning our bad karma instantly ?
Why He makes us pray to him for everything ?
When we dont pray to him our situation gets even worse. Why so ?
It is very clear that when we pray for something " We will not get it in the right time"
A small example though negative :
a prayer we make so that our enemy gets destroyed
After making this prayer you see your enemy will become more stronger and he will become more happy
So henceforth you pray saying Let my enemy live in happiness. Chance are there he gets destroyed.

This is like when we ask a kid or a person not to do something He or She will defenitely do it.
Maybe this is the case with God also.

Correct me if i am wrong
Thanks
Venky
[email protected]

 

[C RAVI]

Sri Sravana Sir,

The problem is none (may be there are exceptions) remember experiences of previous birth, so the sufferings go waste and may be we are committing the same mistakes we had committed in the past. So how can we be thought to be maturing? and maturing for What? If we are not going to be re-born in karma-bhoomi, what is the use of this experience of whole life?

Unless the mind is de-linked with other motor organs (which then makes the living quite useless), how can it remain unaffected? It can perhaps be taught not to react or it can be trained to resign to the situation. But would that be maturity?

Regards,

narayan

IMO, maturity of the soul takes place when the soul (being made to forget the acts of privious janma) in the present janma survives as new/fresh and lives not just as penance for the previous birth wrong doings. And lives to the extent of qulaifying for liberation.

Can we see the diference in the following two? -

1) A downright Criminal (having spoiled many peoples life), released after been sentenced for 15 years (undergoing changes in his personality during imprionsment), takes a complete turn around in his personal-social outlook and lead a descent life.


2) A absolute harmless, social friendly and righteous person who lives ever so, having no need for punishment and penance. He don't need to harm others and than do penance just to have his peace of mind and get relieved from his guilty consiousness.


The soul should get refined without remembering the past deeds..To live just in present, fearing self consciousness..

 

[Nara]

....Does not the non-parity in the length of the rope indicate that some are born (and in most probability will be) less equal than others? If not karma, what would be the reason for this disparity?

Dear narayan, the error here, IMO, is expecting parity. Is there any compelling reason for all beings to be equal in some way?

Parity is human construct. We have deep expectation of fairness and justice. This trait itself is the result of evolutionary selection. When we see unfairness and injustice we want to explain it. Different cultures have devised different answers. For the Hindu culture, it is karma/reincarnation. As you so correctly point out, what is the use of this poorva-janma karma if we forget all about it when we are born into this life?

Cheers!