First lesson in carnatic music

[SANDHYAV]

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[TD="width: 38"][SIZE=-1] level [/SIZE][/TD]
[TD="width: 87"][SIZE=-1] evaluation type (what is measured) [/SIZE][/TD]
[TD="width: 223"][SIZE=-1] evaluation description and characteristics [/SIZE][/TD]
[TD="width: 240"][SIZE=-1] examples of evaluation tools and methods [/SIZE][/TD]
[TD="width: 303"][SIZE=-1] relevance and practicability [/SIZE][/TD]

[TD="width: 38"][SIZE=-1] 1 [/SIZE]
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[TD="width: 87"][SIZE=-1] Reaction [/SIZE]
[/TD]
[TD="width: 223"][SIZE=-1] Reaction evaluation is how the delegates felt about the training or learning experience. [/SIZE][SIZE=-1] [/SIZE]
[/TD]
[TD="width: 240"][SIZE=-1]'Happy sheets', feedback forms. [/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1]Verbal reaction, post-training surveys or questionnaires.[/SIZE]
[/TD]
[TD="width: 303"][SIZE=-1]Quick and very easy to obtain. [/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1]Not expensive to gather or to analyse.[/SIZE]
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[TD="width: 38"][SIZE=-1] 2 [/SIZE]
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[TD="width: 87"][SIZE=-1] Learning [/SIZE]
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[TD="width: 223"][SIZE=-1] Learning evaluation is the measurement of the increase in knowledge - before and after.[/SIZE]
[/TD]
[TD="width: 240"][SIZE=-1]Typically assessments or tests before and after the training.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1]Interview or observation can also be used.[/SIZE]
[/TD]
[TD="width: 303"][SIZE=-1]Relatively simple to set up; clear-cut for quantifiable skills. [/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1]Less easy for complex learning.[/SIZE]
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[TD="width: 38"][SIZE=-1] 3 [/SIZE]
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[TD="width: 87"][SIZE=-1] Behaviour [/SIZE]
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[TD="width: 223"][SIZE=-1] Behaviour evaluation is the extent of applied learning back on the job - implementation.[/SIZE]
[/TD]
[TD="width: 240"][SIZE=-1]Observation and interview over time are required to assess change, relevance of change, and sustainability of change.[/SIZE]
[/TD]
[TD="width: 303"][SIZE=-1]Measurement of behaviour change typically requires cooperation and skill of line-managers.[/SIZE]
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[TD="width: 38"][SIZE=-1] 4 [/SIZE]
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[TD="width: 87"][SIZE=-1] Results [/SIZE]
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[TD="width: 223"][SIZE=-1] Results evaluation is the effect on the business or environment by the trainee.[/SIZE]
[/TD]
[TD="width: 240"][SIZE=-1]Measures are already in place via normal management systems and reporting - the challenge is to relate to the trainee. [/SIZE]
[/TD]

 

[Raji Ram]

Dear Sangom Sir,

Thanks for accepting one of my observations about CM.

Prof. S. R. told us that there were controversies about the mELa chakram, even when it was established mathematically that

there can not exist more than 72 sampoorNa rAgams with the 16 possible swarams in an octave! I think controversies add pep

to life! IMHO, the numbering system is just amazing. Even the names for the twelve chakrams are perfect like 'indhu' for the first,

'nEthra' for the second and so on. There are many rAgams which were extensively used form olden days. Some of them did not fit

in the number given in the chart. So the eighth rAgam ThOdi, 29th rAgam SankarAbharaNam, 65th rAgam KalyANi were given the

prefixes - Hanuma (Ha - 8; na - 0 , reverse - 08), Dheera (Dha - 9; ra - 2, reverse - 29), MEcha (Ma - 5. cha -6, reverse - 65).


In some concerts, if a rare vivAdhi mELa rAgam is presented, I can only find the number of that rAgam and if the name does not

come to my memory, check the chart after returning home. But now-a-days many not so popular rAgams have come into circulation

and they are recognized easily. A few mELa rAgams are KanakAngi, Vanaspathi, NAtakapriyA, NAsikAbhooshaNi and RasikapriyA.

 

[Raji Ram]

Shall catch up with this discussion soon. Important assignment today for Ram and me!!

 

[renuka]

I personally feel the Indian method of playing the Violin Carnatic Music style really kills the beauty of the violin.
It always sounds too dragging and as if someone is crying.

The Violin sounds very majestic when played as it should be played.

 

[sangom]

Dear Sangom Sir,

Thanks for accepting one of my observations about CM.

Prof. S. R. told us that there were controversies about the mELa chakram, even when it was established mathematically that

there can not exist more than 72 sampoorNa rAgams with the 16 possible swarams in an octave! I think controversies add pep

to life! IMHO, the numbering system is just amazing. Even the names for the twelve chakrams are perfect like 'indhu' for the first,

'nEthra' for the second and so on. There are many rAgams which were extensively used form olden days. Some of them did not fit

in the number given in the chart. So the eighth rAgam ThOdi, 29th rAgam SankarAbharaNam, 65th rAgam KalyANi were given the

prefixes - Hanuma (Ha - 8; na - 0 , reverse - 08), Dheera (Dha - 9; ra - 2, reverse - 29), MEcha (Ma - 5. cha -6, reverse - 65).


In some concerts, if a rare vivAdhi mELa rAgam is presented, I can only find the number of that rAgam and if the name does not

come to my memory, check the chart after returning home. But now-a-days many not so popular rAgams have come into circulation

and they are recognized easily. A few mELa rAgams are KanakAngi, Vanaspathi, NAtakapriyA, NAsikAbhooshaNi and RasikapriyA.

Smt. RR,

As you are probably aware, our ancestors were quite adept in the usage of the kaTapayAdi scheme and so naming the different chakras was not a great thing for them, imo. Even the kaTapayAdi samkhya for kalidina of the first of each month used to be given in old PanchAngams here. Similarly, the last word "AyurArOgya sowkhyam" denotes the kaTapayAdi of the kalidina samkhya for the day on which nArAyaNeeyam was completed and placed at the feet of the deity, it is believed.

The question is what benefit is there due to such elaborate theorization, naming etc.? According to you also, if a rare vivAdi mELa rAga is sung you have to come home and refer the chart or list. Why vivAdi mELams at all? Even to this day, and despite heavyweights like Balamuralikrishna, Prof. Sambamurthy, etc., putting their weight in support of these vM ragas (which account for 40 of the 72 melakarthas) there is no appreciable progress in such ragas becoming popular. Why could not we restrict ourselves to the 32 dosha-less mela ragas?

Further this concept of Melakartha does not mean anything more than mere 'labeling'. The janya ragas may have 'anyaswaras', their prayogams can be very different and even antagonistic or exceptive (i.e., what phrases characterize the mela raga should not be used in the janya raga, in order to avoid confusion, and, as TMK explains in the case of nArireetigowla, what is permissible in one sthAyi is banned in another. This leads one to the inescapable conclusion that a student has to master each raga - whether janaka or janya - as a separate and fresh exercise and acquaint himself well with the do's and don'ts of each raga. The comparison that comes to my mind is பட்டுக்குஞ்சலத்துக்கு ஒரு விளக்குமாறு போல! (The reverse of the adage.)

 

[raju14554]

Hi, songamji,

Glad that you have asked my region. I belong to Tamil Nadu. The very reason i have deviated from cm is that it was not taught to me in Tamil. I went to Raja annamalai manram, where tamil songs are being taught, but since , i was overaged then i could not make to it. My concern is clear. Please hear NMs Venkatesa subrabatham in Tamil and you will have the feeling of the language. For example, if a sms is sent in my regional language to my friends, it will have a different effect, other than if it is sent in other language. The essence of the meaning will be lost if generalised. I loved hearing Sirkali Govindarajan sir, music, who can forget the ullathil nalla ullam.He used to sing in the regional language, and nowadays, youngsters also choose regional languages for regional audience. Enna thavam seithanai, Othukkadu venkata subbaiyers songs could be heard so many times. I do not have any grudge in learning cm in other languages. My question is why problems are not given before arriving at the result, that is theorem. If it starts with what a raga is , what a thala is, ofcourse, with gurus guidance, like any other subject, before going to the song itself. What is sa, ri, ga, ma, , what are melakarthas in theory form before attempting in. If these are given in regional language, then one could sing with the meaning known to him in his native language, rather than sung without knowing it. I sung songs in other languages without knowing what i am singing. I am not an expert in cm either. But i do listen to tamil songs with great fervour, because i know the meaning of it. Listen to veeramani sabari songs, illayarajasirji,"ramana malai" thiruvasagam. Oh. What a splendid bundle of emotion one gets. NMs songs are pointers in this regard.I am very thankful for the resouce persons view on my question. When problems are explained to a student, and the solution is reached, the student will get to know better;

 

[amala]

Sangom Sir really I had no idea you knew so much of the technical aspects of CM! Do you teach as well like Raji mami?

 

[amala]

I guess everyones entitled to their opinion however odious it may be and there is no accounting for taste. But still i don't see the point (however philistine) in deliberately being provocative just because one is bored. Its kinda sad really.

 

[vsubbu48]

Smt. Raji Ram,


Similarly, Kambhoji which is considered to be a very ancient raga and also a bhaashaanga raga at that, being made into a "janya" of Harikambhoji which has not been used by two of the trinities, is also an example of "unnecessary theorization" which does not benefit either the performer or the audience.

The sampoorna melakarta system has thrown up two beautiful ragas viz Harikambhodhi and Keeravani which are not found in the Asampoorana padhdhati followed by Dikshitar, who composed kritis only in Kambhodhi and KeeranavaLi. There may be some more new ragas that were created in the former system, upon which Madam Raji Ram can throw light. Thus Sampoorna melakarta system has been beneficial to CM.

 

[sangom]

Sangom Sir really I had no idea you knew so much of the technical aspects of CM! Do you teach as well like Raji mami?

I guess everyones entitled to their opinion however odious it may be and there is no accounting for taste. But still i don't see the point (however philistine) in deliberately being provocative just because one is bored. Its kinda sad really.

Kum. Amala,

Though I said, in an earlier post, that "I did not want to boast that I have some appreciable knowledge of CM" the truth is I don't know much. My knowledge about CM arose when my son once brought a book on sound and hearing from his (Bombay) IIT library and I happened to read it, cover to cover. One of the points in the book which I still remember is that, for a normal human ear to recognize a violin's sound with double its decibel energy, it will require 20 violins to play simultaneously, the same tune (no electronic amplification intended). I happened to get the condition of "Tinnitus" as a result of malaria attack and this caused me to take more interest in audio, ear, music, etc. The process of human hearing itself is so majestic and awesome, perhaps even an agnostic like myself sometimes marvels at the wonders of nature/creation and of that God, if there is one.

My sister had studied two years in the TVM music academy and left it half way since she got married and left for Bombay. My younger sister completed the 4-year course in veena and passed out with some first class. My younger brother has a very abiding interest in CM. He used to have the Sruthi magazine for a number of years and I used to go through those old issues whenever I visited him, till finally the white ants got all the music therein!

In this way, I have been having a good association with the theory part of CM. Even Semmangudi was of the view that vivAdi ragas should not be sung. You see, the vivadi swaras are nothing but other accepted swaras called by another name. For example, Suddha gāndhāraṃ (G1) is the same swaram as catuśśruti riṣabhaṃ : ṣaṭśruti riṣabhaṃ (R3) is nothing but sādhāraṇa gāndhāraṃ (G2) by another name: śuddha niṣādaṃ (N1) == catuśśruti dhaivataṃ (D2), and ṣaṭśruti dhaivataṃ (D3) occupies the same position as kaiśiki niṣādaṃ (N2)

Hence if we take Kanakaangi, for example, its swaras are, in reality sa ri Ri ma pa dha DHa sa, so to say (i.e., denote the suddha Ga by its existing, accepted swara which is Catussruti Ri and same for the suddha ni. The only supporting argument for this misnomer sampradaayam is that Venkata makhin found out that a new raga (one of emerges by "tonal shift" or graha bhedam/sruti bhedam. But this also not true in all the cases.

As I said in one of my earlier posts there are in reality infinite frequencies between one pitch (frequency) and its octave (its double frequency); we define a sruti interval as the minimum pitch ratio which can be detected by a normal, healthy human ear as a different sound or pitch. If, say, this ratio is r%, then we will have 100/r sruthi sthaanas between two octaves. Even now there are people who swear that there can be 24 sruthis though the accepted number seems to be 22. The curious thing is that in many ragas the musicians do not use any of the 12 recognized swaras but something outside of these and no systematic research has been made AFAIK to determine the exact sruti which is so used. (I am told that only the vichitra veena can play all the 22 sruthis correctly; even human voice cannot do that.) This leads us into a situation in which the theory is very very different from actual practice.

That is why I hold the view that this whole theorization about 72 Melakarthas, Mela chakras and giving kaTapayAdi names to ragas/chakras etc., are like ஏட்டுச்சுரைக்காய் (picture of gourd in the text-book) which does not really help the singers or instrumentalists (கறிக்கு உதவாது - will not be useful in cooking). Of course if we consider graha bhedam or tonal shifting to be the end purpose of CM, by all means these theories may be of some use. But that is exactly what the OP complains about and which keeps the common man away from CM.

 

[mskmoorthy]

Here are four articles written by Dr. Mahadevan Ramesh which may be of interest to this thread.
http://www.tamilbrahmins.com/music-dance/10914-first-lesson-carnatic-music.html#post173201
and to Sri Raju14554 Sir. There are a couple of websites (useful for music lovers/learners) given at the end.

From:
Sa Pa Sa | A Discovery of Carnatic Music
“A Gentle Introduction to South Indian Classical (Carnatic) Music” is a four-part primer written by Ramesh Mahadevan. In the author’s own words:
This primer is a feeble attempt to introduce Karnatic music in a gentle way, in a language presumably we all can understand. I want to be able to rekindle your interest and help you discover some of the ‘method’ and grammar of Karnatic music. Even though these notes are aimed at introducing Karnatic music, a lot of of what I have to say also apply to Hindustani Classical music.

http://sapasa.files.wordpress.com/2012/02/a_gentle_introduction_to_carnatic_music_1.pdf
http://sapasa.files.wordpress.com/2012/02/a_gentle_introduction_to_carnatic_music_2.pdf
http://sapasa.files.wordpress.com/2012/02/a_gentle_introduction_to_carnatic_music_3.pdf
http://sapasa.files.wordpress.com/2012/02/a_gentle_introduction_to_carnatic_music_4.pdf

Useful Websites for learners:

http://www.ragasurabhi.com/

http://www.medieval.org/music/world.html

 

[SANDHYAV]

My relative read this and says: CM is a classical music and that is how the tradition needs to be taught. Immaterial of what the business outcome is, it will be slightly difficult to compare with cricket or Bollywood.

 

[raju14554]

Sir mskmurthy, I found useful threads in his reply to my original post.
To Sandhyav, with utomost respect : Is there anything wrong if one is taught in the language he knows. Pl tell this to your relative, as it is not your view, I think.

 

[Raji Ram]

........Even in the case of instruments the above holds good and so the so-called melakarta theory, etc., is an unnecessary embellishment, is my opinion.

Dear Sir,

Theory is very different from practical as far as CM is concerned.

But theory is also necessary to get the basic ideas of any rAgam.

 

[Raji Ram]

........ 1. If prayogams allowed in one octave are disallowed in the next octave (whatever may be the reason, we need not go into that now) and a particular swara is allowed in some phrases but not in some other phrases and so on, what is the relevance of saying on another side about melakartha, janya, aarohana, avatohana etc., as though we are having something equivalent to the Periodic Table of Elements?

2. ..... In Hindustani Music, a person is first given voice culture. ........

3. Prof., you may know about the present day 'fad' of ending swaraprastaara with the mandatory "GaRRiSSaNiDha, RiSSaNNiDhapa, etc." I have not heard this in the performances of olden days.

4.And, sometimes the vocalist seems to be going round and round trying to arrive at the LCM of his beats and the percussionists' taala. When did this enter into CM performances and what way does it enhance the hearer's pleasure?

Here are my answers though this post is not addressed to me, Sir!

1. The differences between similar rAgams are there only by such restrictions. And these are known ONLY to refined singers!

We DO need the mELa rAgam to find the swarams that exist in its janya rAgams. All the janya rAgams of a mELa rAgam do not

have the same gamakams. There is an exception even to this. Almost all the janya rAgams of MAyAmALAvagowLa sound the

same and no special gamakams are present!

2. Very true! Hindustani music is swaram based and their voice culture is any day better than C M singers. Even the first rank

C M artists tend to loose the sruthi at times but we are used to it!

3. Have you not heard Chithoor Subramaniya Pillai and Madurai Somu, Sir?

4. Those who don't practice well end up like this! But, as far as I have seen, many youngsters are able to memorize the long sets

of 'theermAnam' swarams and sing extremely well!

 

[Raji Ram]

.........
வண்டியிலெ போயி வந்தான்
வடக்குத் தெரு வரதன்.....

Why should 'vaNdiyila pORa Varadhan' be taken as a hero!! Why not some God or Goddess?

Sri. Papanasam Sivan has composed beautiful Geethams in Tamil and if possible please take a look at those compositions, Sir!

 

[Raji Ram]

........ i love papanasam sivan. too bad he got no money for all the songs that he created. such is the respect and enforcement (if any) of royalty fees in india ...........

Dear Kunjuppu Sir,

It seems to be a curse. You might be knowing how BhArathiyAr, the now adored 'Kavi', led his life!

It is very sad to note that recognition for the composers is not given when they are alive!

 

[Raji Ram]

I personally feel the Indian method of playing the Violin Carnatic Music style really kills the beauty of the violin.
It always sounds too dragging and as if someone is crying.........

Dear Renu,

Have you not heard violin maestros play? Only the 'kaththu kuttis' play like crying not the experts.

I have heard the AbEri rAgam thAnam pallavi of Sri. L. Shankar a number of times and it always amazes me!

 

[Raji Ram]

............ The question is what benefit is there due to such elaborate theorization, naming etc.? According to you also, if a rare vivAdi mELa rAga is sung you have to come home and refer the chart or list. Why vivAdi mELams at all? Even to this day, and despite heavyweights like Balamuralikrishna, Prof. Sambamurthy, etc., putting their weight in support of these vM ragas (which account for 40 of the 72 melakarthas) there is no appreciable progress in such ragas becoming popular. Why could not we restrict ourselves to the 32 dosha-less mela ragas?........

Dear Sir,

We can not restrict to dhOsh-less mELa rAgams only! Any rAgam gets refined only by repeated singing and it becomes familiar

only by repeated listening! I hope you will agree to this. The rAgams like GAnamoorthy, Vanaspathi, JyOthiswaroopiNi,

NAsikAbhooshaNi and RasikapriyA have come into circulation and are identified easily. Likewise, the other rAgams will also

become polished and good to listen soon enough. Here is a nicely rendered vivAdhi rAgam song for you:

Ranjani Gayatri - mAravairi Ramani - nAsikabhOshani - thyAgarAja

 

[renuka]

Dear Renu,

Have you not heard violin maestros play? Only the 'kaththu kuttis' play like crying not the experts.

I have heard the AbEri rAgam thAnam pallavi of Sri. L. Shankar a number of times and it always amazes me!

Dear RR ji,

I have heard but I just did not enjoy it.
Firstly the direction of the violin faces downwards and somehow I am not too fond of Carnatic Violin playing.

I feel since Violin is a western instrument it should be played like how it was meant to be.

Check out Vanessa Mae one of the world's best Violinist.

[video=youtube_share;G7xiFVAyZw8]http://youtu.be/G7xiFVAyZw8[/video]

 

[Raji Ram]

.......... Check out Vanessa Mae one of the world's best Violinist.....

Dear Renu,

For me, it is like watching gymnastics. Amazes but does not give me the joy that Carnatic music gives me!

It is very true that tastes differ.

 

[amala]

Dear Renu,

Have you not heard violin maestros play? Only the 'kaththu kuttis' play like crying not the experts.

I have heard the AbEri rAgam thAnam pallavi of Sri. L. Shankar a number of times and it always amazes me!

I'm a huge fan of Lalgudi Jayaraman and had wanted to learn how to play the violin after listening to him. Mami you are preaching to the converted btw

 

[Raji Ram]

Dear Renu,

Violin was brought into Carnatic music by some maestros. In fact, after listening to Sri. Lalgudi Jayaraman play on his violin,

the violin maestro Yahudi Menuhin was spell bound and could not believe that such 'gamakam's could be played on the violin.

He presented one violin to Sri. Lalgudi as an appreciation for his talent.

And this is for you - Yehudi Menuhin plays MOhanam!!

Lord Yehudi Menuhin and L Subramaniam

 

[Raji Ram]

I'm a huge fan of Lalgudi Jayaraman and had wanted to learn how to play the violin after listening to him. Mami you are preaching to the converted btw

Dear Amala,

I wrote in one of my posts ( I think in R T P thread ) that to learn a rAgam properly, listen to Sri. Lalagudi Jayaraman play it!

 

[Raji Ram]

For you Amala!

Lalgudi Jayaraman - Mokshamu Galada - Saramati - Thyagaraja