Five reasons to eat meat:

[Seshadri Subramaniam]

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I am not saying that for brahmins.. to gain physical strength eating meat is the only way. I am saying that the eating habits greatly depend on the environment / climatic conditions you live in and you cannot judge an american's eating habits who is living in cold countries where steak is the staple food.

If you are raising a kid in a foreign country where she grows up where vegetarian food is non existant.. you can not argue that all meat eaters are sinners.

If you want to keep your emotions in check, be less impulsive in thinking.. and want to use your brain more effectively.. go vegetarian.

Shri guruprasad,

Well taken.

But am just extending on my thoughts here...

In ancient times, cannibalism was also practised... one may attribute it to lack of veg food, knowledge etc... but let bygones be bygones... coming to the present era, where people have adequate knowledge and access to sources of veg food, one cannot take the argument that you cite...

BTW, am not talking about sin here --> sin is a different concept altogether... relative to the society...

 

[Irreligious_One]

Milk and milk products and soy products are a source of B12...

I did mention that in my previous statement, because I forgot it the first time. Say what you will, Milk is still animal tissue. I wasn't aware of soy products being source of B12, but can you tell me the amount of B12 per gram of soy? That's a very essential criteria for diet.

I do not think that vitamin and protein intake should be the sole reason governing our food habits;

What else should be governing our food habits besides our well-being?

tomorrow, if a rare vitamin is found in human meat, does that mean that people should start eating human flesh?

Illogical fallacy- Appeal to consequences. Your argument is flawed here.

 

[Seshadri Subramaniam]

What else should be governing our food habits besides our well-being?

You are right, but what is 'well-being' - I interpret it to mean the well being of both the mind and body... it could be different to others and here lies the difference...

Quote:
tomorrow, if a rare vitamin is found in human meat, does that mean that people should start eating human flesh?
Illogical fallacy- Appeal to consequences. Your argument is flawed here

.The fact that you do not have an answer to it does not prove that the example is flawed...

BTW, the reasoning is derived from the intent of your earlier post wherein you extolled the benefits of animal tissue benefitting humans! If this is illogical, then so is yours...!!!

 

[Irreligious_One]

You are right, but what is 'well-being' - I interpret it to mean the well being of both the mind and body... it could be different to others and here lies the difference...

My mind works just fine eating poultry and fish. In fact, fish is the richest source of creatine- an ATP generator.

The fact that you do not have an answer to it does not prove that the example is flawed...

BTW, the reasoning is derived from the intent of your earlier post wherein you extolled the benefits of animal tissue benefitting humans! If this is illogical, then so is yours...!!!

It is a logical fallacy, whether you like it or not. You ought to check on a list of logical fallacies before you jump into arguments and spew emotional rhetoric such as these and accuse me instead of indulging in fallacies. There's a whole list here:

http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/

And yes, stop taking it personally. It's getting evident you are. I already mentioned I am not mocking vegetarians or vegans here. Everyone is entitled to their choice.

 

[Seshadri Subramaniam]

My mind works just fine eating poultry and fish. In fact, fish is the richest source of creatine- an ATP generator

My mind works fine without eating animal flesh...

It is a logical fallacy, whether you like it or not. You ought to check on a list of logical fallacies before you jump into arguments and spew emotional rhetoric such as these and accuse me instead of indulging in fallacies. There's a whole list here:

Thanks for the link though my logic is stemmed from yours...

There is no emotional rhetoric here... can't help it if you think so...

And yes, stop taking it personally. It's getting evident you are. I already mentioned I am not mocking vegetarians or vegans here. Everyone is entitled to their choice.

Remarkable observation... I should say, as you seemed to have judged the individual during the course of a few posts...

Stop looking at my posts as a rebuke or a incessant counter;

 

[Irreligious_One]

My mind works fine without eating animal flesh...

Like I had problems with that? Did you miss the part where I said "Everyone is entitled to their own choice"?

There is no emotional rhetoric here... can't help it if you think so...

Oh, I am SURE there wasn't any rhetoric there.:becky:

Remarkable observation... I should say, as you seemed to have judged the individual during the course of a few posts...

Not the individual, but his response. I don't even know you.

 

[Seshadri Subramaniam]

And yes, stop taking it personally. It's getting evident you are.

Not the individual, but his response.

Sure, this is a judgement on the response...!!

Oh, I am SURE there wasn't any rhetoric there.:becky:

hmmm, I smell one now...

 

[Irreligious_One]

hmmm, I smell one now...

I thought I was being sarcastic when I said "I am SURE there wasn't any rhetoric there", but whatever (oy vey!)

 

[sapr333]

My mind works fine without eating animal flesh...

Dear Seshadri, thats an individual opinion,which cannot be relied solely to prove the point..

I am perfectly OK considering Vegetarianism in line with Faith&Spirituality.But if we look around, it reflects the other way around...

Take for eg. Kerala... It commands the highest literacy rate in India (Mind & Knowledge) and ranks number one in National Health Index ( Body). Also, this state is the highest comsumer of Non-Veg in India. Can you drive something out of it?

 

[Seshadri Subramaniam]

I thought I was being sarcastic when I said "I am SURE there wasn't any rhetoric there", but whatever (oy vey!)

Sure I read that...

C'est La Vie...

 

[KRS]

Dear Sri SS Ji and Sri Irreligious-One Ji,

Thank you for keeping the discussion on a genteel keel. I thought for a minute it would escalate in to something else.

My thoughts on this topic:

1. Through evolution man has the capacity to eat both non-veg and veg diets (our teeth, our digestive design etc.).

2. Because of this, somehow it occurs to me that our bodies are better designed to have a balanced diet with both veg and non-veg items.

3. It seems that a well designed veg diet alone can supplement the nutrients from a non veg diet, with the key word being 'well designed' (Wikipedia).

4. But the diets that are tied to longevity are well balanced non veg diets with lots of veg items as well as non veg viriety (pork, beef, poultry and fish, such as Mediterranean and Japanese).

I think we can have very healthy lives as vegetarians but the key is to make sure that we get all the needed nutrients in proper amounts. This may require consciously incorporating certain food items in certain quantities that may not be followed in certain veg diets today. For example, I think that the high incidence of diabetes in South India is directly related to this type of imbalance (too much in take of starch) as well as anemia in adults (B12 and iron deficiencies).

Above is a layman's view. Please let me know if I am wrong.

Regards,
KRS

 

[Irreligious_One]

Dear Sri SS Ji and Sri Irreligious-One Ji,

Thank you for keeping the discussion on a genteel keel. I thought for a minute it would escalate in to something else.

My thoughts on this topic:

1. Through evolution man has the capacity to eat both non-veg and veg diets (our teeth, our digestive design etc.).

2. Because of this, somehow it occurs to me that our bodies are better designed to have a balanced diet with both veg and non-veg items.

3. It seems that a well designed veg diet alone can supplement the nutrients from a non veg diet, with the key word being 'well designed' (Wikipedia).

4. But the diets that are tied to longevity are well balanced non veg diets with lots of veg items as well as non veg viriety (pork, beef, poultry and fish, such as Mediterranean and Japanese).

I think we can have very healthy lives as vegetarians but the key is to make sure that we get all the needed nutrients in proper amounts. This may require consciously incorporating certain food items in certain quantities that may not be followed in certain veg diets today. For example, I think that the high incidence of diabetes in South India is directly related to this type of imbalance (too much in take of starch) as well as anemia in adults (B12 and iron deficiencies).

Above is a layman's view. Please let me know if I am wrong.

Regards,
KRS

I think you hit the nail on the head with a very cogent argument, without stooping to logical fallacies. There's ample scientific evidence to indicate that a well-balanced diet is necessary for proper functioning and well-being of the human body, despite what one says.

However the argument becomes warped because the whole concept of "well being" is subjective primarily due to the fact that for some it transcends to a 'spiritual' level- things that science CANNOT explain or rationalize. Is there a scientific study on "spiritually enlightening and cleansing foods"? No...why? Because we cannot quantify or measure spirituality.

Now, I speak strictly from a scientific viewpoint, so I don't subscribe to a "spiritual well-being" in terms of my diet. With my active lifestyle, which involve aikido, jujitsu, and biking, I have to take in my necessary nutrients and I've had bad experiences with artificial whey protein isolates (too much stress on the kidneys). Therefore, I have to find my protein intake in my regular diet and eat accordingly. That said, I respect what someone else likes to eat and have no desire to change their dietary habits.

 

[G Vishwanath]

Vegetarianism

This subject has been debated for years and no agreement has been reached.

I gave up debating this subject.
Each of us decides where to draw the line.
I draw my line at all plant products and include milk in my diet.
I did eat unfertilized eggs during my youth but have now given up eggs too.
However I don't make a fuss when some one offers me a piece of cake.
I don't ask if it contains eggs.

Some have become vegans and forswear milk too.
I wont go that far.

Most Non Vegetarians in India draw a line a little further away.
They take care to see that at least the animimal they eat is a vegetarian animal!

The Koreans, Chinese and Japanese extend the line even further.
Their victims are non vegetarian.Dogs/Cats/Snakes are all game.
Any thing that runs, walks, crawls, slithers, wriggles, flies, swims is edible. The rule is if it moves, eat it.


At least we all agree that human flesh, however tasty or nutritive it may be, is forbidden for all of us.

Live and let live. (For the non-veggies, you modify that to live and let die)


Some non veg friends commisserate with me.
I do sometimes eat at the same table with them in a restaurant.
When I prefer a vegetarian menu, they tell me that I don't know what I am missing.

I tell them that I still haven't exhausted all the recipes with purely vegetarian ingredients and I am not likely to do so in this lifetime and advise them not to feel sorry for me and instead enjoy the remains of whatever carcass it is that they are devouring with such relish and leave poor me alone.

Regards to all
G Vishwanath

 

[sapr333]

At least we all agree that human flesh, however tasty or nutritive it may be, is forbidden for all of us.

Homo Sapiens are the only species which drink another species' milk.

if cruelty to animal is the cause for Vegetarianism, drinking milk should equally be an un-ethical one.

Going futher down the line, plants do have life and sense too (Touch-Me-Not)..Why are we not worried about them..

Bit of confusion and its only a thin line differentiates all these point..

Moral of the story: Dietary laws of Vedhas,Gita,Smriti,Old Testament, Torah,Koran etc all be shunted out.. Follow the Dietician's law.

 

[Seshadri Subramaniam]

Everything is life... but then we have to sustain ourselves.. and for that we draw a line... limiting ourselves with the plant kingdom...

The action of gratifying the senses even while extending untold cruelty to animals is an appalling one...

It is about extending the love of the self to the other, beyond human species... and not only about scientific analysis of nutrients of our diet...

Animals are much closer to humans than plants...

What stops a carnivorious man from eating human flesh? Is it compassion? Or is it that we are similar and that we are grouped under the same species? Or is it fear that the action may be reciprocated and eventually one would also end up on a dining table? So the argument of nutrition is only a hypocritical one... Eating flesh is a detestable action, and cannot be justified however nutritious it may be...

The argument that having pointed teeth or an omnivorous digestive system justifies meat eating is also a fallacy... Can we then extend this logic to other parts - 'The presence of hands indicate that any action which the hand can do is permissible?', 'Presence of the sexual organs indicates no boundaries?' Only a megalomaniac would think that everything under the sun can be used as one pleases...

<<sapr333>>if cruelty to animal is the cause for Vegetarianism, drinking milk should equally be an un-ethical one.

Mammals feed on their mother's milk... that cannot be equated to eating their mother!

Borderline is that eating plants and consuming animals are parallels... nutrition is not always the deciding factor...

 

[KRS]

Sri SS Ji and others,

My referring to the human digestive design to eat meat is not to 'justify' eating meat but rather to say that through evolution we are designed to absorb the nutrients from both non veg and veg.

Now from certain religious perspective, like ours, eating meat is not encouraged (for the Brahmins). This is, more than for compassion (which came later), for making sure that we eat only 'sattvic' increasing food, which is all vegetarian.

Our religion does not prohibit eating meat for professions that requires increasing one's rajasic quality.

I also understand that some of us look at this purely from the 'ahimsa' attitude towards the animals. Which is valid. But again, this is purely from a personal perspective. I even know some 'veg' folks who would not eat any meat from a 'vertebraed' animal but would gladly eat meat from a 'non vertebraed' animal.

I do not think that vegetarianism can be extended to the whole humanity. A lot of people have access to only non veg food in this world. Again, based on the food habits of one's clan/forefathers, one is liable to eat what one wants. I believe in the saying 'Konna Pavam, Thinna Pocchu'. Now having said that, some modern practices of how one 'farms' the mass production of non veg food where the animals are ill treated before the 'harvesting' needs to be re examined.

This issue is mainly a personal one (I would not even consider this a 'moral' one). As Sri SS Ji himself said in some other thread, Cannibalism is not practiced because the society has banned it as not conducive to it's survival - I am paraphrasing.

So, taking in to everything in to consideration:

1. This is a personal choice
2. Practice generally depends on religious belief
3. Nutritional factors do impact only in terms of the veg people making sure that they are more careful
4. Most of the world is non veg and as such will not be inclined to go veg in any near future
5. Food habits are cultural, evolved mainly from the local availability of food. So to deride one practice versus other seems to me is quite childish

Regards,
KRS

 

[happyhindu]

This is an inconclusive topic. Just wanted to share something.

When i developed an inflammatory condition, my doc advised me to take fish oil in a certain dosage which i continue to this day, and at the same time switch to a veggie diet. According to the doc the only plant alternative closest to fish oil is flaxseed oil but not as effective as it. So it had to be fish oil. In a way i can understand why bengalis treat fish as vegetarian.

It really depends on the environment the body has been growing in for ages. Permutations are effected by environmental conditions; and even remain long after a man has moved from his longest or original habitat. Humans are designed for all types of diet since they are designed to be survivors. One cannot expect an eskimo to be a veggie. He is designed for a predominantly fish diet. People 'evolve' according to the environment they live in.

 

[happyhindu]

<<As Sri SS Ji himself said in some other thread, Cannibalism is not practiced because the society has banned it as not conducive to it's survival>>

sir,

even now if one allows cannibalism, with no ban or any such thing, no one will want to taste human flesh. Because in the evolutionary process we have moved to a diff energy source set; and have managed to sustain it as our energy power house. And in that process of evolution our design is somewhat modified, so we have a natural aversion for what we once might have practiced.

lets say in a sudden pole or axis shift the climate on earth changes dramatically, animals die, plants dry up, water dries up, then what will man survive on. And many many ages later if man evolves to create an other energy source for himself, am not sure we can call the currently eaten foods, either veggie or non-veggie, is appropriate or not based on future terms of propriety (by then we might be averse to our current foods).

found this link just now- more than food sources dying out, am more 'worried' abt this: if the y-chr died out within the next 5 million years, who will we mate with??? and imagine a world full of women : http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/...weaker-sex-says-study/articleshow/4589707.cms

 

[kunjuppu]

happy,

in a desperation to stay alive, humans have shown, under extreme conditions to indulge in cannibalism. two examples

- in december 1972, an uruguan airplane crashed in the andes mountains. more than a quarter of the passengers died in the crash and many more died in the days following. it took 72 days to find the crash among the remote andes. by the the remaining survivors kept alive, by indulging in cannibalism.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uruguayan_Air_Force_Flight_571

- during the 1000 day siege of leningrad by the nazis. again, the extreme conditions, people fed on each other. to the credit of the communist, the minute someone was found indulging in this practice, he was summarily shot.

http://www.historylearningsite.co.uk/siege_of_leningrad.htm

below is an excerpt from the above..

.... Dogs and cats were hunted for food and stories emerged of cannibalism - freshly buried bodies were, according to some, dug up in the night. ...

who knows how we will behave when driven to extreme deprivations?

 

[happyhindu]

happy,

in a desperation to stay alive, humans have shown, under extreme conditions to indulge in cannibalism. two examples

goodness...a man can do anything to stay alive i suppose....i'd rather die than taste human flesh...yikes.

 

[Seshadri Subramaniam]

Shri KRS, I just shared my perspective on the topic.. that is all... nothing to offend anybody... and I didn't mean to pick on you in my post earlier...

As hh rightly puts it, it is inconclusive....

Regards,

Aside: Pls feel free to address by my id itself; the 'ji' humbles me everytime you use it...

 

[Seshadri Subramaniam]

<<hh>>lets say in a sudden pole or axis shift the climate on earth changes dramatically, animals die, plants dry up, water dries up, then what will man survive on. And many many ages later if man evolves to create an other energy source for himself, am not sure we can call the currently eaten foods, either veggie or non-veggie, is appropriate or not based on future terms of propriety (by then we might be averse to our current foods).

<<shri kunjuppu>>in a desperation to stay alive, humans have shown, under extreme conditions to indulge in cannibalism. two examples

Sure you must have heard of 'marandhum puranthozhamai'...

Similarly, there are still people who would prefer to die rather than eat the flesh and survive...

 

[KRS]

Dear Sri SS,

No issues. I did not think you picked on me. But at the same time, I needed to clarify and add to my thoughts. I have one more thought to add.

I have lived in the US for a long time and in places where an annual hunting season is almost a 'religion'. A lot of people here feel that it takes them closer to nature and savour it. A huge number hunt with bow and arrow (instead of guns) so they feel that the animal (mostly deer) has an even chance to escape. There are several hunting organizations who spend quite a bit of money towards the conservation efforts around the world.

Not to contrast this, but to show both sides: In India where we worship cows, one can see the abandoned cows on the streets when they become 'unproductive'. From what I am told, most of them die a horrible death eating plastic bags.

So, in this context, it seems to me that slaughtering of an animal for food is much more 'humane' than letting it die unwanted, fending for itself on the streets.

Regards,
KRS

Shri KRS, I just shared my perspective on the topic.. that is all... nothing to offend anybody... and I didn't mean to pick on you in my post earlier...

As hh rightly puts it, it is inconclusive....

Regards,

Aside: Pls feel free to address by my id itself; the 'ji' humbles me everytime you use it...

 

[GopalaswamyShridharan]

s007bala

I was actually mislead by your heading of the thread untill i read the url which you have given.

Indians are majorly vegetarians,i think.We worship cows,horses,elephants and many animals,as part of a demigod system vide puranas.

Almost all the vahanas of our gods are animals,birds,mouse and species like that.

But,in the world population,the majority eat non-vegetarian food only.They are equally pious,cultured,loving,caring,compassionate,brave,truthful.So,finally its a choice as per tradition and family values instilled.

More brahmins today are becoming non-vegetarians.In fact the prices of these non-vegetarian food has sky rocketed because,demands have gone up exponentially.

India is still 40% an agri based economy.So,we will be consumers of agri products as well as meat based food edibles.

Meat eating if done in limitations can be actually a good thing for better immunisation against diseases.

But,i still am a vegetarian only.Nothing to beat Sambar,Rasam,Curry,Sadam,Thayir-to name a few south indian food cuisines.

gopal.

 

[tbs]

s007bala

I was actually mislead by your heading of the thread untill i read the url which you have given.

Indians are majorly vegetarians,i think.We worship cows,horses,elephants and many animals,as part of a demigod system vide puranas.

Almost all the vahanas of our gods are animals,birds,mouse and species like that.

But,in the world population,the majority eat non-vegetarian food only.They are equally pious,cultured,loving,caring,compassionate,brave,truthful.So,finally its a choice as per tradition and family values instilled.

More brahmins today are becoming non-vegetarians.In fact the prices of these non-vegetarian food has sky rocketed because,demands have gone up exponentially.

India is still 40% an agri based economy.So,we will be consumers of agri products as well as meat based food edibles.

Meat eating if done in limitations can be actually a good thing for better immunisation against diseases.

But,i still am a vegetarian only.Nothing to beat Sambar,Rasam,Curry,Sadam,Thayir-to name a few south indian food cuisines.

gopal.

hi all
thaiyir saadam with vadu mango..........besh nesh....pure vegetarian
south indian brahmin saapadu.........nothing can beat in the world...

regards