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Girl's Education/Employment and Marriage -Evolution -I

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Sri.Nara said:-

No Raghy, it seems it is 45% of divorce [COLOR=#5EA0C3 ! important][COLOR=#5EA0C3 ! important]applications[/COLOR][/COLOR]
are from Brahmins.[/QUOTE

Sri.Nara, Greetings. I stand corrected. It makes a huge difference, ddoen't it?

Divorce is not necessarily a bad thing. If things do not work out it is better to get out than to endure daily suffering.

It is easy to write; but, very hard to do. By that time a divorce is considered, the relationship or the lack of it had consumed a fair amount of time, energy, physical and psychological inputs, needless to say, a bit of money too. It is natural tendency for the parties to workout the differences. Sometimes the parties can become desperate enough to try anything; rational thinking goes out the window. Any attempt to salvage gets tried. The last resort is divorce.

After divorce, the after effect may stay for ages. It can be so hard to start once again. The person becomes 'second hand' after a divorce. The value drops considerably.

So, when they try various things to avoid a divorce, to try to slavage the marriage, Lagna Lord, Navamsa chart or dasangam smoke...anything goes!
(by the way, I came across 'dasangam' only when I was 14! My aunty brought that from Srirangam.. we used it sparingly for a long time!)

Cheers!
 
Jai SiyaRaam

Naraji, you are absolutely right - "Divorce is not necessarily a bad thing. If things do not work out it is better to get out than to endure daily suffering. "

Raghyji you too are right - "By that time a divorce is considered, the relationship or the lack of it had consumed a fair amount of time, energy, physical and psychological inputs. It is natural tendency for the parties to workout the differences. Sometimes the parties can become desperate enough to try anything; rational thinking goes out the window. Any attempt to salvage gets tried. The last resort is divorce.
After divorce, the after effect may stay for ages. It can be so hard to start once again. The person becomes 'second hand' after a divorce.
So, when they try various things to avoid a divorce, to try to slavage the marriage...anything goes!"

Sir you both have perfectly depicted the state of mind. I may be contradicting myself by saying that both of you are right while you both presented your opinions against each other.

Somayaji.Sji, we need people like you to see lotus(pankajam) in mud not just mud.

We should accept ie be able to digest the fact that there are divorces happening in every major cities(Chennai, Bengalooru, Hyderabad etc.,) of India.

In my opinion divorce is just like anyother misunderstanding between two entities/people ie brothers, brother-sister, parents(oops thats divorce), generations - parents-kids, countries, religions etc., and we should not give it much importance in deriding way just because marriage is considered to be sacred.

We stopped thinking marriage as sacred the moment we started making choices, setting parameters like educated, good family background, financially sound, family type gal, macho man, fair skinned, big eyes what not ... we are involving in manasika vyabhicharam ... it is taught(passed) by parents/older generations to the next generation kids ... we act surprised when a gal wants to divorce a person just because he lost hair on his head and/or no more macho looking and or when a guy finds another gal more attractive that his wife or for excuse that she is dominating and not more family type etc., these people(frauds) go for divorce by stating the very criteria(being not met) on which the marriage was made.

Sir marriage is sacred in books, movies, puranas and in this forums but in real life every parent/eligible mate is trained to seek for a mate on some or the other criteria and the when the criteria is not met not holding then the marriage leads to divorce. Its like business terms.

At the same time, Divorces should not be taken as pramanams/proof to deride our culture/glorious past. Divorces are happening only because it is easy and it is no more a taboo. Like mine, I guess you all also have relatives where a husband/wife bears the tyranny of his/her wife/husband all life long but not taking divorce.

I believe we are progressing, thanks to the observations/presentation of Somayaji.Sji.

Inspite of we living in these times of no madisar saree, kudumi etc., we are still following our traditions/relgion/beliefs and are still progressing/changing with times. Its real delight to see us born kids singing Thyagaraja keerthanas in USA temples during festivals/weekends.

Please correct me if I am wrong.

Thanks,
Jai SiyaRaam
 
nachi naga:-(Quote)girl's education has improved lives,namely quality of it.of what use is it,living married,when happiness is a truant thing.so educated girls opt out of marriage.not all educated do this option too.some like tradition,and take it as a challenge,to reform the husbands to be productive too,using their educational skills.(en-quote)

happiness in life comes when husband.wife and children interact with each other without prejudices,ego (krodham,madham,maathcharyam).Higher Education is for enlightenment and a means for a better lively-hood .A man can not say "I want an educaterd girl and then say she should do house-keeping only and not use her knowledge for betterment of her career.Whether one lives in Timbactoo,Sydney or Los-Angeles or in Chennai, if the priorities of both the husband and wife are very clear,there is no chance of broken marriages.Males also should learn to swallow their bravado and gasconade.Female or Male differentiation in higher forms of Life is "Natural selection" during the process of Evolution for "Variations" in Genetic make-up ,which is conducive for propagation.It does NOT confer any Superiority in males.-especially so in Human spicies---Na Gjnaanam,Na seelam,Na Tapam,Na Gunam-----Ye Bhoomi bhaara kaahaa--Manushya Roopena Mrgaa zaranthi."--the professionals I have cited --Neurologist,Nephrologist,Scientist,Acoountant,IT professionals-they are Real -not fictitious-I did not want give their name.They are all leading very happy lives with their husbands and children.But one compulsion is there--No servant maids,No Plumbers/electricians,No office drivers/no washerman--person to press clothes-No gardner etc.--Sewr cleaner is prohibitevly costly.Whatever the status of a husband in India,(even a Jamindar) when he comes with his wife to Euro-American countries all the jobs mentione above,husband only has to do--because in Russian,Italian,Irish,African American neighbour houses the husband will ONLY do-if that fellow does not do the neighbours will ask why your husband is NOT doing?-so Indian husband to keep his image does all that, to the "Vaittherichal" of his mother (girl'sMaamiar).--husband has to bring his as wellas his wive's cup of water to Dinning table--so he swallows all his Indian pride and get adjusted to family life.No diverse--Be happy.

I am NOT in Tamil Nadu for the past 12 years--from the discussions in the thread it appears--sudden spurt of Engineering colleges,very Fat salaries lady I.T.Professionals get due to a sudden increase in Outsourcing business,economical freedom the girls enjoy etc--there appears to be a lot of "Erosions" in the value system and "Family concepts being pushed to the hind seat.Media also seems to be pouring "Inflammables" into the"Fire"--This is bound to be there initially in the transition period--today Tamil Brahmins-tomorrow other castes--By Socialogical Research and appropriate Counceling only this problem can be solved.Not by Rasi Chakras--Bhaava Chakraas and all that.
 
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]I wish to make a few points.

1. Till about 20 years ago, the marriage market of TBs was heavily loaded against the female. In the not so distant past (I am talking about 40 to 50 years ago), there have been cases where poor brahmin parents had to give away their girls in marriage to what we in Kerala area refer to "pattunoolkkaaran" from Andhra or some similar group coming from Ceylon (in those days) and then had to practically forget those daughters. I know a few cases of really good-looking girls also who had to be given away in such marriages, because mere appearance was not enough to get a brahmin boy then. All those days, there was absolutely no noise being made about the heavy "varadakshinai" and all other demands and parameters which were being insisted upon by the parents of boys. Today the pendulum has swung to the other extreme and the parents of girls, by and large, do not really have much of a problem (let us not consider here a few rare cases of highly qualified and financially very well-placed girls who are not able to get boys of their choice). The parents of boys are now at the receiving end, if I may say so. And there is so much concern about that as if it is going to affect the society at large on a gigantic and permanent scale. Are we a male-oriented society still? (BTW, I have three sons only, so one need not think that I am in the advantaged category of today.)

2. The situation in the US which Shri Somayaji has explained, does not obtain here. But our girls, who are now in a "global village" atmosphere, aspire for the best of both the worlds, India and US. Our boys have grown up under parents who are of the old-world type; mother being generally low-profiled and father, the head of the household and hence the final authority. So, the boys find it difficult to change their mindset regarding their own role in married life, and to accept a position where they will live like the couples in US. Even so, they get married because of their natural urge and since not being married in our society is a signal that there is something wrong with that boy (unsaleable goods)! But the further adjustments become very contentious issues and the alliance breaks down.(Remaining unmarried in the US or UK, I am told, is also a disadvantage for the man, since the foreigners tend to keep such "chronic bachelors" out of their social circle. Even in the circle of Indians or Tbs in those countries, unmarried men are looked upon as some strange species, and are excluded in a very fine way.)

4. In this market situation only the best quality boys have ready saleability and those whom one of our esteemed members described as "choplangi" will not sell and we have to accept that, (just as girls who were good-looking, but poor, had to accept the market reality at one time) or else, as some wise (in my view) parents/elders are doing in Kerala now, get such boys married to girls from other castes from nearby areas. It will be a futile excercise to go in search of "brahmin" brides from other states/regions for such cases.
 
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The shortage of girls seems to be less for boys who are born after 1980 or so. Mostly boys born before 1980 have problems since there is genuine shortage of girls for the matching period.

In the swayamvaram functions also we see mostly 30 plus aged boys roaming around without solutions.

These boys are left out boys by girls of matching age group.

The options before these boys according to me are as follows:

1.Marry girls from other language speaking brahmin community if available.

2. If the boys and their parents are very strict about brahminism, I thought of a solution - Encourage poor brahmin parents to adopt NB girls and then marry. If I am correct, the girl will become a brahmin if adopted by brahmin parents.

If it is not correct then the idea has to be dropped altogether.

3.Forget about marriage and Grahastasramam once for all.

I don't suggest Draupadi type arrangement in the present age.

I request all of you to think about the above options and suggest solutions for our aggrieved boys.

All the best
 
somayaji,
happiness in life comes when husband.wife and children interact with each other without prejudices,ego (krodham,madham,maathcharyam).Higher Education is for enlightenment and a means for a better lively-hood .A man can not say "I want an educaterd girl and then say she should do house-keeping only and not use her knowledge for betterment of her career.Whether one lives in Timbactoo,Sydney or Los-Angeles or in Chennai, if the priorities of both the husband and wife are very clear,there is no chance of broken marriages.Males also should learn to swallow their bravado and gasconade.Female or Male differentiation in higher forms of Life is "Natural selection" during the process of Evolution for "Variations" in Genetic make-up ,which is conducive for propagation.It does NOT confer any Superiority in males.-especially so in Human spicies---Na Gjnaanam,Na seelam,Na Tapam,Na Gunam-----Ye Bhoomi bhaara kaahaa--Manushya Roopena Mrgaa zaranthi."--the professionals I have cited --Neurologist,Nephrologist,Scientist,Acoountant,IT professionals-they are Real -not fictitious-I did not want give their name.They are all leading very happy lives with their husbands and children.But one compulsion is there--No servant maids,No Plumbers/electricians,No office drivers/no washerman--person to press clothes-No gardner etc.--Sewr cleaner is prohibitevly costly.Whatever the status of a husband in India,(even a Jamindar) when he comes with his wife to Euro-American countries all the jobs mentione above,husband only has to do--because in Russian,Italian,Irish,African American neighbour houses the husband will ONLY do-if that fellow does not do the neighbours will ask why your husband is NOT doing?-so Indian husband to keep his image does all that, to the "Vaittherichal" of his mother (girl'sMaamiar).--husband has to bring his as wellas his wive's cup of water to Dinning table--so he swallows all his Indian pride and get adjusted to family life.No diverse--Be happy.

what a wonderful society is USA.Everyone has to do their own work and machines are there to assist.But labor is cheap in India,moreover its a livelihood for many poor people.Its another matter,whether servants stick for long in a household depending upon many factors,to retain them with dignity.

I am NOT in Tamil Nadu for the past 12 years--from the discussions in the thread it appears--sudden spurt of Engineering colleges,very Fat salaries lady I.T.Professionals get due to a sudden increase in Outsourcing business,economical freedom the girls enjoy etc--there appears to be a lot of "Erosions" in the value system and "Family concepts being pushed to the hind seat.Media also seems to be pouring "Inflammables" into the"Fire"--This is bound to be there initially in the transition period--today Tamil Brahmins-tomorrow other castes--By Socialogical Research and appropriate Counceling only this problem can be solved.Not by Rasi Chakras--Bhaava Chakraas and all that.

I am with you and agree also on most points except ridiculing jyotisham,which is totally unwarranted.If you do not have belief in it,just ignore.Rasi Chakras,Bhaava Chakras provide fundamental personality traits in a human being.Not only that,they give valuable esp projections in a spiritually inclined practioners.

Girls educations is so crucial these days,as only two income salary class people seem to have a good time in life :(:rockon:
 
Sri.RVR said:-

If the boys and their parents are very strict about brahminism, I thought of a solution - Encourage poor brahmin parents to adopt NB girls and then marry. If I am correct, the girl will become a brahmin if adopted by brahmin parents.

அப்படி போடு நைனா! This is exactly what I suggested to Sri.P V Raman, many moons ago, with slight differences; but, the jist was the same. (By the way, I miss PVR. I have not seen him for a long time). I am more than happy to discuss on this angle further.

Cheers!
 
Jai SiyaRaam

Naraji, you are absolutely right - "Divorce is not necessarily a bad thing. If things do not work out it is better to get out than to endure daily suffering. "

Raghyji you too are right - "By that time a divorce is considered, the relationship or the lack of it had consumed a fair amount of time, energy, physical and psychological inputs. It is natural tendency for the parties to workout the differences. Sometimes the parties can become desperate enough to try anything; rational thinking goes out the window. Any attempt to salvage gets tried. The last resort is divorce.
After divorce, the after effect may stay for ages. It can be so hard to start once again. The person becomes 'second hand' after a divorce.
So, when they try various things to avoid a divorce, to try to slavage the marriage...anything goes!"

Sir you both have perfectly depicted the state of mind. I may be contradicting myself by saying that both of you are right while you both presented your opinions against each other.

Somayaji.Sji, we need people like you to see lotus(pankajam) in mud not just mud.

We should accept ie be able to digest the fact that there are divorces happening in every major cities(Chennai, Bengalooru, Hyderabad etc.,) of India.

In my opinion divorce is just like anyother misunderstanding between two entities/people ie brothers, brother-sister, parents(oops thats divorce), generations - parents-kids, countries, religions etc., and we should not give it much importance in deriding way just because marriage is considered to be sacred.

We stopped thinking marriage as sacred the moment we started making choices, setting parameters like educated, good family background, financially sound, family type gal, macho man, fair skinned, big eyes what not ... we are involving in manasika vyabhicharam ... it is taught(passed) by parents/older generations to the next generation kids ... we act surprised when a gal wants to divorce a person just because he lost hair on his head and/or no more macho looking and or when a guy finds another gal more attractive that his wife or for excuse that she is dominating and not more family type etc., these people(frauds) go for divorce by stating the very criteria(being not met) on which the marriage was made.

Sir marriage is sacred in books, movies, puranas and in this forums but in real life every parent/eligible mate is trained to seek for a mate on some or the other criteria and the when the criteria is not met not holding then the marriage leads to divorce. Its like business terms.

At the same time, Divorces should not be taken as pramanams/proof to deride our culture/glorious past. Divorces are happening only because it is easy and it is no more a taboo. Like mine, I guess you all also have relatives where a husband/wife bears the tyranny of his/her wife/husband all life long but not taking divorce.

I believe we are progressing, thanks to the observations/presentation of Somayaji.Sji.

Inspite of we living in these times of no madisar saree, kudumi etc., we are still following our traditions/relgion/beliefs and are still progressing/changing with times. Its real delight to see us born kids singing Thyagaraja keerthanas in USA temples during festivals/weekends.

Please correct me if I am wrong.

Thanks,
Jai SiyaRaam
:yo:
 
(Quote) what a wonderful society is USA.(en-quote)

I don't say wonderful Society.In the last 10-12 years I personlly know about 50-60 Tamil brahmin families in my Metropolis and see about 100 TB families regularly visiting Hindu Temple on week-end days/Tamil sangam entertainments,A.R Rehman "jai ho" etc.About 25% ,who came after 1965 and remaining 75% during I.T.Boom in late 90s.To the best of my knowledge,i have NOT heard about "diverse" even in One T.B.family.By and large the Gender egos are Not there.

(Quote) "I am with you and agree also on most points except ridiculing jyotisham,which is totally unwarranted.If you do not have belief in it,just ignore.Rasi Chakras,Bhaava Chakras provide fundamental personality traits in a human being.Not only that,they give valuable esp projections in a spiritually inclined practioners."(en-quote)

My opinion on Jyodhishm is not due disbelief and I do NOT agree that it is un-warranted--My opinion (I think I have a right to have an opinion--somebody takes it personally)-is based on firm conviction and personal experience in my own Life.I learned "Brahat Jadhakam(Authority on Hindu Astrology) under Pandit Ayodhya Pandey(Varanasi) for 3 yeras and my wife comes from a Family of Super Astrologers.She knows more than ,I know in Astrology.We received a very very big blow in our life(Astrology tripped us).

Astronomy is a Science--sarva sri.Lagada,Brahma Guptha,Arya Bhatta,Vvaraaha Mihira,Bhaskara-I and Bhaskara-II are Hindu Astronomers and their works "Surya Siddhaantham",Brahma Siddhantham" ,especially the Kerala Nambudri Arya Bhatta's "Dasa Kittika"--"Kaala Kriya" are all SCIENCE and Rational Treatises.

Brahat Jadhakam (including B.V.Raman's works) are all Emperical and irrational.NO body till date has given any rational or Sceintific "Evidence" that when a planet(Graham) "Appears" to be present in a Constellation(nakshathiram) or Zodaic(Raasi)--{[I used the word "appears",because Planets and Constellations are NOT "Co-planar".Even in the legs(Paadham) of a Constellation the individual Stars are NOT co-planar.For example in Pleiades (Kritthika) the six stars are NOT co-planar.}] how it influences the Psyche or Soma of an Individual--all predictions are only un-confirmed,emperical "conjuctures" only.Astrology is just a "Nashaa".Solong "Gullibles are there they can be taken for a "Ride"--it is a Non-Entity for Spirituality.A Parivraajaka is a "Spiritual leader"--he can pursue his spiritual path independent of Rasi, and all that.When Einstein made a Conjecture E=mc2--Ophenheimer and Fermi provided "Evidence"--Who provides "Evidence" for Brahat Jaadhakam ?--please do not Dub me as a Naasthika"--Independent of Astrology,I can be an Aasthika"---"Naal En seyum--Kol Enseyum----Kumaresan Thal en munnay Thondridinay'"
 
Sri.RVR said:-



அப்படி போடு நைனா! This is exactly what I suggested to Sri.P V Raman, many moons ago, with slight differences; but, the jist was the same. (By the way, I miss PVR. I have not seen him for a long time). I am more than happy to discuss on this angle further.

Cheers!

I just read from internet that Rig Vedha talks against adoption

"The rej ection
ofadoption on the earlier annals ofhistory can be evidenced from the
followin~extract from Rigveda:


oh agni, no son is he who spring from others, 6

It even went to the extent of observing that considering sons
bigotten ~y others as onesown was the path offools and such a child
should n~t be taken nor even be though ofin the mind 7 this condem-
nation ofseconcfmy sons is further manifest from the grihayasrtras, which
provide ~he code for domestic rituals in the ancient Vedic society,
overtly excluded rituals for the taking ofa secondary son. 8 With the
advent ofDharmashastras, the institution ofadoption eventual"

In that case how adoption is practiced by Brhamin Community.

Can anybody throw more light on the subject.

All the best
 
Wonderful society in the U.S ! Just wait for another 20 years when the children who are born in U.S grow up. How many of them will get married to Brahmins? Hardly 5%. The schools and colleges in the U.S will bring on peer group pressure which the parents can not overcome.

We have a number of family members who migrated to U.K and U.S in the sixties and whose children are married now. Hardly anyone has married a Hindu leave alone a Brahmin. The brahmins will be dissolved in the melting pot that is U.S.A.

Many people came back from U.S for that very reason. Loss of identity. They continue to come back.

Liberation of women or education does not mean the liberty of sleeping with anyone and contempt for the idea of marriage. If that is what is meant by liberation the Anglo Indian community is the most liberated in India.

Brahmins are considered to be intellectuals. Intellectuals are not people who give priority to bodily pleasures.

If the Brahmin girls are that liberated why are they asking the parents to arrange for marriages. If the girls in the I.T sector are liberated because they earn a lot of money, how come they do not choose their own mates. Why depend on parents, horoscopes and marriage ceremonies when you hold the entire concept of marriage in contempt.

Why the I.T sector. In other sectors and the society in general there is definitely a peer pressure against divorce. But in the I.T sector it is the othere way around. It is the in thing.

There are a number of divorced girls in the I.T sector with one or two children. In the days past birth of a child was supposed to cement the marriage.

Divorce is classified by psychologists as one of the biggest trauma in a person's life. This is done by the psychologists in the U.S the wonderful society where Divorce is very common.

A see a number of Divorced women in the U.S who are forced to stay all alone in the old age. There many help groups for them. They also seek spiritual solace in Hinduism.

Wonderful society. My Foot.:mad:
 
I just read from internet that Rig Vedha talks against adoption

"The rej ection
ofadoption on the earlier annals ofhistory can be evidenced from the
followin~extract from Rigveda:


oh agni, no son is he who spring from others, 6

It even went to the extent of observing that considering sons
bigotten ~y others as onesown was the path offools and such a child
should n~t be taken nor even be though ofin the mind 7 this condem-
nation ofseconcfmy sons is further manifest from the grihayasrtras, which
provide ~he code for domestic rituals in the ancient Vedic society,
overtly excluded rituals for the taking ofa secondary son. 8 With the
advent ofDharmashastras, the institution ofadoption eventual"

In that case how adoption is practiced by Brhamin Community.

Can anybody throw more light on the subject.

All the best

RVR, Please see this

ADOPTION IN ANCIENT INDIA
 
Sri Sankara Sharma Sir,

I don't know why we have to feel ashamed of our past. Every society has its own plus points as well as minus points. Indian culture and society as a whole has lot of plus points and also has some minus points. Correcting the minus points is a continuous process which we are already doing without even being noticed. For example `dowry menace' was a big issue just few decades back. But today practically no body talks about dowry at least in TB community.

Those who like USA or any other society are free to embrace that society. But at the same time, let them not criticize Indian society in general and TB community in particular.

There are lot of people belonging to Indian origin in USA who doesn't like that culture. They are waiting for the right opportune time to get out of that environment and return back to India.

In a global environment, there is enough space for multiple cultures and practices. Let all such cultures be practiced simultaneously. We need not have to compare one against the other.

All the best
 
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Wonderful society in the U.S ! Just wait for another 20 years when the children who are born in U.S grow up. How many of them will get married to Brahmins? Hardly 5%. The schools and colleges in the U.S will bring on peer group pressure which the parents can not overcome.

We have a number of family members who migrated to U.K and U.S in the sixties and whose children are married now. Hardly anyone has married a Hindu leave alone a Brahmin. The brahmins will be dissolved in the melting pot that is U.S.A.

Many people came back from U.S for that very reason. Loss of identity. They continue to come back.

Liberation of women or education does not mean the liberty of sleeping with anyone and contempt for the idea of marriage. If that is what is meant by liberation the Anglo Indian community is the most liberated in India.

Brahmins are considered to be intellectuals. Intellectuals are not people who give priority to bodily pleasures.

If the Brahmin girls are that liberated why are they asking the parents to arrange for marriages. If the girls in the I.T sector are liberated because they earn a lot of money, how come they do not choose their own mates. Why depend on parents, horoscopes and marriage ceremonies when you hold the entire concept of marriage in contempt.

Why the I.T sector. In other sectors and the society in general there is definitely a peer pressure against divorce. But in the I.T sector it is the othere way around. It is the in thing.

There are a number of divorced girls in the I.T sector with one or two children. In the days past birth of a child was supposed to cement the marriage.

Divorce is classified by psychologists as one of the biggest trauma in a person's life. This is done by the psychologists in the U.S the wonderful society where Divorce is very common.

A see a number of Divorced women in the U.S who are forced to stay all alone in the old age. There many help groups for them. They also seek spiritual solace in Hinduism.

Wonderful society. My Foot.:mad:
:yo:
 
I just read from internet that Rig Vedha talks against adoption....In that case how adoption is practiced by Brhamin Community.

Can anybody throw more light on the subject.

All the best

This page, from which you seem to have cited, gives a fuller picture:

The Hindu Law On Adoption - Reflections On Ancient Indian Thought And ...

It will be seen that Manu considered twelve types of secondary sons of which only the "dattaka" has survived as legal. Hence the adoption idea seems to have been endorsed at the time of Manu despite the R^gvEdic prohibition, but later the gr^hyasUtRas went back on Manu's stand and denounced adoption. With the dhaRmasUtRas the approval of a son was permitted, though with lot of conditionalities.

In this thread, however, we are talking about adoption of the NB girls by a brahmin family; I am not sure whether our scriptures allow that.
 
Sri Sankara Sharma Sir,

I don't know why we have to feel ashamed of our past. Every society has its own plus points as well as minus points. Indian culture and society as a whole has lot of plus points and also has some minus points. Correcting the minus points is a continuous process which we are already doing without even being noticed. For example `dowry menace' was a big issue just few decades back. But today practically no body talks about dowry at least in TB community.

Those who like USA or any other society are free to embrace that society. But at the same time, let them not criticize Indian society in general and TB community in particular.

There are lot of people belonging to Indian origin in USA who doesn't like that culture. They are waiting for the right opportune time to get out of that environment and return back to India.

In a global environment, there is enough space for multiple cultures and practices. Let all such cultures be practiced simultaneously. We need not have to compare one against the other.

All the best

Sri RVR ji,

In my humble opinion, comparative mind set alone can help us sustain our culture and value our tradition.

If we don't compare, evaluate and determine what is right and what is wrong for us, than there is nothing to do with bothering our self associating to specific society through out our life.

Comparing and differentiating necessarily need not lead to prejudicial attitude, but still imperative to identify our self as how we want to be.

 
This page, from which you seem to have cited, gives a fuller picture:

The Hindu Law On Adoption - Reflections On Ancient Indian Thought And ...

It will be seen that Manu considered twelve types of secondary sons of which only the "dattaka" has survived as legal. Hence the adoption idea seems to have been endorsed at the time of Manu despite the R^gvEdic prohibition, but later the gr^hyasUtRas went back on Manu's stand and denounced adoption. With the dhaRmasUtRas the approval of a son was permitted, though with lot of conditionalities.

In this thread, however, we are talking about adoption of the NB girls by a brahmin family; I am not sure whether our scriptures allow that.

I think the Vedhas are kept at the highest level as compared to the so called `Dharma sastras'. If Rig Vedha pronounces against adoption, then there is no appeal against it. Whatever `adoption' ceremonies which we witness today among our community is against the principles of Rig Vedha.

I wish other eminent members contribute to this topic.

All the best
 
We have a number of family members who migrated to U.K and U.S in the sixties and whose children are married now. Hardly anyone has married a Hindu leave alone a Brahmin. The brahmins will be dissolved in the melting pot that is U.S.A.

Many people came back from U.S for that very reason. Loss of identity. They continue to come back.

We should understand that we cannot stem certain sociological changes even with the strong (barbaric) control like the one which the Taliban exercised in Afghanistan for some time. It is better to leave it alone. Those who value the brahminic ways of living and thinking can continue and set an example which, in future, may provide a chance for our descendants to embrace if and when they get to know the full implications of their present ways of living and thinking.

Liberation of women or education does not mean the liberty of sleeping with anyone and contempt for the idea of marriage. If that is what is meant by liberation the Anglo Indian community is the most liberated in India.
Liberation of women came about in the west, unfortunately, at a time when there were lot of war widows and almost all able bodied men had been killed or mutilated. Hence, unknowingly, the license for freedom in sexual matters and liberation in other spheres of activity went hand in hand and this became an accepted phenomenon. I don't think we will be able to correct that point of view. But my sons, who are abroad, tell me that despite all that is projected by cinemas, magazines, books etc., the majority of the middle classes in US, and more so in UK, live within sexual mores akin to ours after marriage, the only differences being 1) there are no arranged marriages, and,2) divorces are common and not looked down upon.

Brahmins are considered to be intellectuals. Intellectuals are not people who give priority to bodily pleasures.
This is more in the preaching than practising. Look at our cuisine, the way our brahmins take to every gadget which reduces effort, and the number of children which the average brahmin had up to some 50 years ago, despite the poverty then.

If the Brahmin girls are that liberated why are they asking the parents to arrange for marriages. If the girls in the I.T sector are liberated because they earn a lot of money, how come they do not choose their own mates. Why depend on parents, horoscopes and marriage ceremonies when you hold the entire concept of marriage in contempt.
If allowed by parents, many more girls will select their partner. But why some of them ask their parents to decide is that they don't want to be estranged from their parents and people, so that if any difficulty arises later on she can put the onus of correcting on the parents; otherwise she will have to face it herself squarely and the parents may not feel obliged to come to her rescue.
 
Sri RVR ji,

In my humble opinion, comparative mind set alone can help us sustain our culture and value our tradition.

If we don't compare, evaluate and determine what is right and what is wrong for us, than there is nothing to do with bothering our self associating to specific society through out our life.

Comparing and differentiating necessarily need not lead to prejudicial attitude, but still imperative to identify our self as how we want to be.


Ravi,

I am not against comparison. Even today Japanese accept joint family concept where elders are taken care of by youngsters. It is identical to our culture.

But in the western world, once a boy or girls attains a certain age, they are forced live separately from parents.

India has one of the least divorce rates in the whole world. By adopting the western culture blindly, we may have to open more family courts and orphanages. Only lawyers will thrive and society will lose.

Let us objectively compare and try to emulate best portion of each and every culture. I always accept `Honey Bee' principle of getting the best honey out of every flower.

All the best
 
Within India's gambit,i think Indian values or Hindu values,as the case may be accepted,is a super long term happiness planned culture.Western models are equally sense perception based happiness,wherein happiness is directly measured.Girls in India today,are being assertive of their education,sexuality,and values do get a beating.But this is happening with evry generation gap.

Life in western culture,is a very practical life based model.Laws are very strict and implemented also,no matter even if you are the President of a country.India has so much to learn from western model of life,not go by hollywood,magazines,tv....etc at the most the people who have lived in west,tell you by word of mouth can be a special way of acknowledging life in west.

Similiarly,when people from west come to India,totally enamored by the spirituality it offers,think Indian girls are all pati-pavithram girls.And i do enuff instances,girls in India emulate lifestyle similiar to west.

Brahmin girls today as they were yesyerdays,are shining beacons of values jut like the boys.Exceptions are not the rule.
 
somayji,
(Quote) what a wonderful society is USA.(en-quote)

I don't say wonderful Society.In the last 10-12 years I personlly know about 50-60 Tamil brahmin families in my Metropolis and see about 100 TB families regularly visiting Hindu Temple on week-end days/Tamil sangam entertainments,A.R Rehman "jai ho" etc.About 25% ,who came after 1965 and remaining 75% during I.T.Boom in late 90s.To the best of my knowledge,i have NOT heard about "diverse" even in One T.B.family.By and large the Gender egos are Not there.

i guess wonderful or miserable,is a relative term based on one's perception at a particular point of time.

(Quote) "I am with you and agree also on most points except ridiculing jyotisham,which is totally unwarranted.If you do not have belief in it,just ignore.Rasi Chakras,Bhaava Chakras provide fundamental personality traits in a human being.Not only that,they give valuable esp projections in a spiritually inclined practioners."(en-quote)

My opinion on Jyodhishm is not due disbelief and I do NOT agree that it is un-warranted--My opinion (I think I have a right to have an opinion--somebody takes it personally)-is based on firm conviction and personal experience in my own Life.I learned "Brahat Jadhakam(Authority on Hindu Astrology) under Pandit Ayodhya Pandey(Varanasi) for 3 yeras and my wife comes from a Family of Super Astrologers.She knows more than ,I know in Astrology.We received a very very big blow in our life(Astrology tripped us).

ok,that came out rather wrong.all i mean is,jyotisham is an integral part of our cultural life.its like a compass now.previous eras it was like a gps.our skills have downgraded,thats all.but the science is very much true,as its based on astronomy,not some weirdo theories.Sorry,that you have had a bad experiance with life living,and wish to blame it on jyotisham!!

Astronomy is a Science--sarva sri.Lagada,Brahma Guptha,Arya Bhatta,Vvaraaha Mihira,Bhaskara-I and Bhaskara-II are Hindu Astronomers and their works "Surya Siddhaantham",Brahma Siddhantham" ,especially the Kerala Nambudri Arya Bhatta's "Dasa Kittika"--"Kaala Kriya" are all SCIENCE and Rational Treatises.

Brahat Jadhakam (including B.V.Raman's works) are all Emperical and irrational.NO body till date has given any rational or Sceintific "Evidence" that when a planet(Graham) "Appears" to be present in a Constellation(nakshathiram) or Zodaic(Raasi)--{[I used the word "appears",because Planets and Constellations are NOT "Co-planar".Even in the legs(Paadham) of a Constellation the individual Stars are NOT co-planar.For example in Pleiades (Kritthika) the six stars are NOT co-planar.}] how it influences the Psyche or Soma of an Individual--all predictions are only un-confirmed,emperical "conjuctures" only.Astrology is just a "Nashaa".Solong "Gullibles are there they can be taken for a "Ride"--it is a Non-Entity for Spirituality.A Parivraajaka is a "Spiritual leader"--he can pursue his spiritual path independent of Rasi, and all that.When Einstein made a Conjecture E=mc2--Ophenheimer and Fermi provided "Evidence"--Who provides "Evidence" for Brahat Jaadhakam ?--please do not Dub me as a Naasthika"--Independent of Astrology,I can be an Aasthika"---"Naal En seyum--Kol Enseyum----Kumaresan Thal en munnay Thondridinay'"

jyotisham is a limb of vedas or angam,namely eyes.a certain vision is projected.only lord brahmaa can predict with 100% accuracy.even varahmihira has humbly pointed out this evident truth,despite being uncannily accirate in all his predictions.

girls and boys,have an option to use jyotisham based,personality compatability,with a overall future predictions.ultimately,its individuals,who decide what they need to do,despite subtle influences of rays(gamma beta theta..etc) from grahams affecting human psyche.common sense prevails ultimately.
 
ss,
Wonderful society in the U.S ! Just wait for another 20 years when the children who are born in U.S grow up. How many of them will get married to Brahmins? Hardly 5%. The schools and colleges in the U.S will bring on peer group pressure which the parents can not overcome.

by and large,indian children who grow up in west,are very much balanced in their outlook,and accept their identity as per their vision of objectives in life.in fact,the western up bringing is far superior to indian up bringing traditional vedic life based.veda patashala students who live in west,stick to their sampradayas,and the indian culture mentality exists with all its glory in full bloom.

We have a number of family members who migrated to U.K and U.S in the sixties and whose children are married now. Hardly anyone has married a Hindu leave alone a Brahmin. The brahmins will be dissolved in the melting pot that is U.S.A.

this classification as 'hindu' is only 1200 year old phenomena.our sanathana dharma,never bracketed us as this and that.in that sense,the children marrying whom they wish to,is purely a personal decision.the brahmins have been dissolved in tamizh nadu itself,how one can envisage that brahmins by birth,will grow in numbers elsewhere?

Many people came back from U.S for that very reason. Loss of identity. They continue to come back.

reasons attributed are diverse.one can never lose their identity in bhu-lokam,as it's one.

Liberation of women or education does not mean the liberty of sleeping with anyone and contempt for the idea of marriage. If that is what is meant by liberation the Anglo Indian community is the most liberated in India.

sleeping is a normal body need.marriage gives one a 'license' to raise family,with full blessings and sanctions.these are all human made laws.we humans create these laws,and drag god to give it a semblance of authority for implementation.technically,only mutual consent is required.in order that society functions normally,without any untoward happenings,these human made laws have been evolved over a period of eons.otherwise,we are no better than any species,which are equally divine like us humans.

Brahmins are considered to be intellectuals. Intellectuals are not people who give priority to bodily pleasures.

if progeny is stopped,how intellectuals can be produced as a class of people?so,body needs are as essential as any other need.

If the Brahmin girls are that liberated why are they asking the parents to arrange for marriages. If the girls in the I.T sector are liberated because they earn a lot of money, how come they do not choose their own mates. Why depend on parents, horoscopes and marriage ceremonies when you hold the entire concept of marriage in contempt.

custom and tradition dictates the easy way out for youngsters.unlike the west,indian kids are totally protected by parents right till their death,i guess.

Why the I.T sector. In other sectors and the society in general there is definitely a peer pressure against divorce. But in the I.T sector it is the othere way around. It is the in thing.

divorce by itself is an option,when constant unhappiness prevails between couples.todays economic independance gives assertive action,to live for now and not for future long term happiness.nothing wrong.

There are a number of divorced girls in the I.T sector with one or two children. In the days past birth of a child was supposed to cement the marriage.

with western model of eduvation,these are part and parcel of the baggage.even in india,village panchayats used to decide,incompatability,unfaithfullness etc.so your view,is bs sir.

Divorce is classified by psychologists as one of the biggest trauma in a person's life. This is done by the psychologists in the U.S the wonderful society where Divorce is very common.

any seperation is traumatic.so to cope such incidents,specialists are there.which is getting documented.usa is a wonderful society,endearing one and all.to project life in usa as some demonic existance,is totally untrue.

A see a number of Divorced women in the U.S who are forced to stay all alone in the old age. There many help groups for them. They also seek spiritual solace in Hinduism.

Wonderful society. My Foot.:mad:

joint family system has collapsed in india too.my parents refused to move in with me.i had to move back and re-adjust my career options.so,all this about indian life superior to western life or vice versa,is a bubble in ones head.everything exists everywhere,with a degree of variation.
 
Ravi,

I am not against comparison. Even today Japanese accept joint family concept where elders are taken care of by youngsters. It is identical to our culture.

But in the western world, once a boy or girls attains a certain age, they are forced live separately from parents.

......................................................................................
All the best



Though , there are many countries in this world, and in the western half of the globe also, when somebody says WEST, it is just USA.

Even when there are many things worth copying and imbibing from other countries, why the youngsters are fast copying the US habits?

There are many countries where marriage and family life is still cherished . Why our youngsters are not emulating the Russians, Greeks or Germans, but only copying the Americans?

I feel, Americans are originally conglomeration of migrants and as such not have anything well binding with them, and mixture of everything . So the natural sequence is to succumb to temptations.

Being able to "buy" anything -- as they do not have anything worthwhile other than Cocoa Cola/Pepsi " to sell, and almost everything is imported for them.

In economy also, what I understand is that America "spends" when others like India "save".

Even China wall is also penetrated by the American cultural and trade intrusion.

I remember that in this forum sometime earlier , a member has written that India should look East and not West.

East or West- India is Best.
I am an Indian.I am proud to be Indian, with all its minus points also.


Greetings.
 
...
Liberation of women or education does not mean the liberty of sleeping with anyone and contempt for the idea of marriage. If that is what is meant by liberation the Anglo Indian community is the most liberated in India.

Brahmins are considered to be intellectuals. Intellectuals are not people who give priority to bodily pleasures.

sankara,

i object to you maligning the anglo indian community. i grew up among them, and i know many of the families. not only do i disagree with your statement, which i think, is more a reflection of the general ignorance and prejudice. also, coming from a person of your stature, it is astounding that you would stoop to attack a community on false premises, in a context, where they have no part to play, are not participants and have no one of their community to defend themselves. please do not do this again.

re sex & intellectuals: i think you have it all wrong my friend. the most rabid intellectuals have the most sexual desire & are among the most likely to be promiscuous. it is yet another fallacy of ours, that wisdom means abjuring sex. on the contrary, the go hand in hand, (no untoward meaning meant here), very well.
 
Sri Suryakasyapa Sir,

We have to capture the best of all world.

I was in Germany for more than a month and I love the cold efficiency of Germans very much. Even though language is a problem, there are symbolic sign boards every where and one can manage without asking anybody.

I visited few other countries in Europe but nothing impressed me like Germany.

I visited New York about 16 years back and I had a very bad experience which I don't want to recollect. I rushed back without visiting other parts of USA.

Looking to the east, I always feel at home in Singapore. Our language, culture along with highly efficient system will make us very comfortable. Even the climate is more or less like ours and it is another advantage. Ladies can walk safely in the street even at mid-night.

Let us try to collect the best out of all worlds.

All the best
 
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