God Exists

[Brahin]

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A wonderful story : "GOD Exists"... This is one of the best explanations of why GOD allows pain 'n suffering that I have seen. A man went to a barbershop to have his hair cut 'n his beard trimmed. As the barber began to work, they began to have a good conversation. They talked about so many things 'n various subjects. When they eventually touched on the subject of GOD, the barber said: "I don't believe that GOD exists." "Why do you say that?" asked the customer. "Well, you just have to go out in the street to realize that GOD doesn't exist. Tell me, if GOD exists, would there be so many sick people? would there be abandoned children? If GOD existed, there would be neither suffering nor pain. I can't imagine a loving GOD who would allow all of these things." The customer thought for a moment, but didn't respond because he didn't want to start an argument The barber finished his job 'n the customer left the shop.Just after he left the barbershop, he saw a man in the street with long, stringy, dirty hair 'n an untrimmed beard. He looked 'n unkempt. The customer turned back 'n entered the barbershop again 'n he said to the barber: "You know what? Barbers do not exist." "How can you say that?" asked the surprised barber. "I am here, 'n I am a barber. 'n I just worked on you!" "No!" the customer exclaimed. "Barbers don't exist because if they did, there would be no people with dirty long hair 'n untrimmed beards, like that man outside." "Ah, barbers DO exist! What happens is, people do not come to me. "Exactly!- affirmed the customer. "That's the point! GOD, too exist! What happens, is, people don't go to him 'n do not look for him. That's why there is so much pain 'n suffering in the world.

 

[DrBarani]

Well, "parallel logic" is appears great to common eyes, but doesn't really prove anything. In order to appreciate the concept of God one must master the art of analyzing any question in a time-independent frame. For example, questions like "if God created something at some point of time, then what existed before"? Such questions assume a universal clock that is not part of the system. The human knowledge is heavily reliant on the assumption of Time as an absolute reference frame.

 

[Brahin]

Well, "parallel logic" is appears great to common eyes, but doesn't really prove anything. In order to appreciate the concept of God one must master the art of analyzing any question in a time-independent frame. For example, questions like "if God created something at some point of time, then what existed before"? Such questions assume a universal clock that is not part of the system. The human knowledge is heavily reliant on the assumption of Time as an absolute reference frame.

dear drbarani,

what you are saying is 100% true.thats the difference between humans and God.
the knowledge of humans is limited.

 

[hathim]

Nice post, though have read this long before, its worth reading n number of times and making others read it too, who try to showcase a cool attitude by saying that they are atheist

 

[kunjuppu]

Nice post, though have read this long before, its worth reading n number of times and making others read it too, who try to showcase a cool attitude by saying that they are atheist

hathim,

i do not know if atheism is a cool attitude, or any of the resident atheists here, claim it to be such.

why can't we just leave it, as another option - option that may be different from yours or mine, but that may be what is suited for them.

i know of 2 atheists here, and both of them, have been brought up with faith, and i would imagine, that they are far more familiar with the intracies of their faith, that they had reached a point, that to discard religion, appeared to be the right thing to do.

i think, it is only fair, that we give them credit for their knowledge and decision, which came out of their own life experience.

when it comes to faith, or absence of it, there is no 'oneupmanship'. neither faith or faithless is superior to the other. they are two opposing plates on a weighing scale. atleast i think so

thank you.

 

[DrBarani]

hathim,

i do not know if atheism is a cool attitude, or any of the resident atheists here, claim it to be such.

why can't we just leave it, as another option - option that may be different from yours or mine, but that may be what is suited for them.

i know of 2 atheists here, and both of them, have been brought up with faith, and i would imagine, that they are far more familiar with the intracies of their faith, that they had reached a point, that to discard religion, appeared to be the right thing to do.

i think, it is only fair, that we give them credit for their knowledge and decision, which came out of their own life experience.

when it comes to faith, or absence of it, there is no 'oneupmanship'. neither faith or faithless is superior to the other. they are two opposing plates on a weighing scale. atleast i think so

thank you.

atheists are often very smart people with analytical abilities. What they say, often, is that "a flying sphagetti monster in the sky" is irrelevant for worldy life. They don't venture into spiritual or philosophical arguments. Hence, it is necessary to know where they stop and where religion begins. There exists a fine line there and I have visited both sides.

 

[kunjuppu]

atheists are often very smart people with analytical abilities. What they say, often, is that "a flying sphagetti monster in the sky" is irrelevant for worldy life. They don't venture into spiritual or philosophical arguments. Hence, it is necessary to know where they stop and where religion begins. There exists a fine line there and I have visited both sides.

drb,

maybe. may not be.

my objection, was only what i saw was a taunt, re 'who try to showcase a cool attitude by saying that they are atheist '

 

[sravna]

To me one thing will prove the existence of God. If someone would not give up his good qualities in spite of incessant and huge pressures, it would prove to be a good test for the existence of God. Kali yuga is such a setting where the above type of pressures are exerted on a person and we constantly see people buckle.

What better way to recognize God than through divine qualities in a person?

 

[jaisiyaraam]

atheists are often very smart people with analytical abilities. What they say, often, is that "a flying sphagetti monster in the sky" is irrelevant for worldy life. They don't venture into spiritual or philosophical arguments. Hence, it is necessary to know where they stop and where religion begins. There exists a fine line there and I have visited both sides.

Namaste DrBaraniji,

The inability of atheists to argue and/or to understand the spiritual or philosophical ideas(truths ?)does not automatically prove existence of God. Aethiest have not stopped, they are progressing - progressed from fire, wheel to condoms,computers,satelites and they still going - and they dont have the responsibility prove the existence of pink unicorn or holy/celestial tea pot circling sun.

Also, it is not(is it ?)the duty/responsibility(shame ?)of believers to prove(inability to prove ?)exisitence of God.

Om Hiranya Rethase Namaha

Thanks,
Jai SiyaRaam

 

[DrBarani]

Namaste DrBaraniji,

The inability of atheists to argue and/or to understand the spiritual or philosophical ideas(truths ?)does not automatically prove existence of God. Aethiest have not stopped, they are progressing - progressed from fire, wheel to condoms,computers,satelites and they still going - and they dont have the responsibility prove the existence of pink unicorn or holy/celestial tea pot circling sun.

Also, it is not(is it ?)the duty/responsibility(shame ?)of believers to prove(inability to prove ?)exisitence of God.

Om Hiranya Rethase Namaha

Thanks,
Jai SiyaRaam

In my logic system, atheists and believers are not going in opposite directions, but in orthogonal directions. If they go in opposite directions, then they are under the same scaling system and a simple translation would bring one group to the other side. Only perpendicular movements cannot be reconciled in any manner, since they are linearly independent of each other.

 

[Brahin]

I didnt start this thread to cause atheist Vs theist debate.
i was just sharing some emails i got and this also is an email i got just now.

1. God is Satchidananda: Existence Absolute, Knowledge Absolute and Bliss Absolute.
2. God is Antaryamin: He is the Inner Ruler of this body and mind. He is omnipotent, omniscient and omnipresent.
3. God is Chiranjeevi: He is permanent, eternal, perpetual, indestructible, immutable and imperishable. God is past, present and future. He is unchanging amidst the changing phenomena.
4. God is Paramatma: He is the Supreme Being. The Bhagavad Gita styles Him as 'Purushottama' or Supreme Purusha or Maheswara.
5. God is Sarva-vid: He is ever-knowledgeable. He knows everything in detail. He is 'Swasamvedya', that is, he knows by Himself.
6. God is Chirashakti: He is ever-powerful. Earth, water, fire, air and ether are His five powers. 'Maya' is His illusive Shakti (power).
7. God is Swayambhu: He is self-existent. He does not depend upon others for His existence. He is 'Swayam Prakasha' or self-luminous. He reveals Himself by His own light.
8. God is Swatah Siddha: He is self-proven. He does not want any proof, because He is the basis for the act or process of proving. God is 'Paripoorna' or self-contained.
9. God is Swatantra: He is Independent. He has good desires ('satkama') and pure will ('satsankalpa').
10. God is Eternal Happiness: Supreme Peace can be had only in God. God-realisation can bestow supreme happiness on humankind.
11. God is Love: He is an embodiment of eternal bliss, supreme peace and wisdom. He is all-merciful, omniscient, omnipotent and omnipresent.
12. God is Life: He is the 'Prana' (life) in the body and intelligence in 'Antahkarana' (fourfold mind: mind, intellect, ego and the subconscious mind).
13. God has 3 Aspects: Brahma, Vishnu and Shiva are the three aspects of God. Brahma is the creative aspect; Vishnu is the preservative aspect; and Shiva is the destructive aspect.
14. God has 5 Activities: 'Srishti' (creation), 'Sthiti' (preservation), 'Samhara' (destruction), 'Tirodhana' or 'Tirobhava' (veiling), and 'Anugraha' (grace) are the five kinds of activities of God.
15. God has 6 Attributes of Divine Wisdom or 'Gyana': 'Vairagya' (dispassion), 'Aishwarya' (powers), 'Bala' (strength), 'Sri' (wealth) and 'Kirti' (fame).
16. God Lives in You: He dwells in the chamber of your own heart. He is the silent witness of your mind. This body is His moving temple. The 'sanctum sanctorum' is the chamber of your own heart. If you cannot find Him there, you cannot find Him anywhere else

 

[Brahin]

Got this by email

The purpose of religion is certainly to make us a better human being. It helps us manifest the god or goodness within us for the benefit of oneself and the world. The Three Disciplines The basic tenets of Hinduism highlight three qualities to groom the physical, mental and intellectual facets of your personality. The most fundamental of the eternal values can be classified into these three disciplines: Self control (Brahmacharya) — Regulates the physical personality Non-injury (Ahimsa) — Regulates the mental personality Truthfulness (Satyam) — Regulates the intellectual personality Lessons from the Gita The Bhagavad Gita has clearly defined the ascetic simplicities that every individual should aim at — the austerity of body, speech and mind: "Worship of the Gods, the twice born, the teachers and the 'wise'; purity, straightforwardness, celibacy, and non-injury; these are called the 'austerity of the body'." (The Gita, Chapter XVII, 14) "Speech which causes no excitement, and is truthful, pleasant and beneficial, and the practice of the study of the Vedas, these constitute the 'austerity of speech'." (The Gita, Chapter XVII, 15) "Serenity of mind, good heartedness, silence, self-control, purity of nature — these are called the 'mental austerity'." (The Gita, Chapter XVII, 16) Assimilating the Eternal Values The above verses show us the ways in which we can inculcate and assimilate these fundamental eternal values. Here're eight things we can do diligently to emerge as better persons: Worship the God of your heart Maintain external cleanliness — Physical and Environmental Practice straightforwardness in dealing with others Live a life of self-control with respect to all your sense enjoyments Avoid acts of injuring others from your emotional and intellectual realms Speak only to express agreeable ideas of permanent value. When the truth is disagreeable to others, maintain a discreet silence. Maintain pure and serene motives Maintain a relationship of understanding, tolerance and love with the world at large. People who follow this steadily and with no desire of quick results will attain eternal goodness. This is what the Gita says about goodness: "This threefold austerity practiced by steadfast men with utmost faith desiring no fruit, is called austerity of goodness." (The Gita, Chapter XVII, 17) And the good are those who refuse to worry about the future because they know that the "future is the resultant of the total path modified by the present."

 

[kunjuppu]

i think it is tougher to be an atheist.

look at all the ribbings and taunt that is heaped on them.

even though i am a believer, i think atheists are just like us ie humans. with another faith - atheism - no different than hindus or muslims or xtians. just another group.

no need to gang up on them.

 

[DrBarani]

I didnt start this thread to cause atheist Vs theist debate.

Well, the title of the thread was an open invitation to that debate

 

[Yamaka]

Why Should There Be A GOD, When You Have Free Will and No Fear?

Many of you may know me: I have gone to the top of my house and yelled this question many times!

I have said that Man (some men) created all this Organized Religions and their Gods who just don't exist!

I have said that poojas and prayers are never heard by this (Non-existent) Gods! It's a form of Bribery!!

I have said that there is no Modus Operandi for any God to do anything to the devotees! Because He does not exist.

When Kavinger Kannadasan asked "Kadavul Yaen Kallaanaan?" I answered "He has been a Kall from the Beginning, Kavingarae!"

Gods exist because the Believers are in FEAR and/or are Superstitious, IMO.

Enjoy your Gods!

 

[Raghy]

Greetings.

A God answering prayers, a God conducting creations, a God deciding our 'fate' does not exist. I am not even agnostic about this. Either it is there or it is not there.

I am not willing to enter in an usual, circular debate about this.

God was created by us for our own psychological benefits. Over the period, we have given too much importance for that concept due to our gullibility and inorder to fulfil our personal gains.

Now we have come to such a situation, when we see someone struggling in life, instead of boosting his/her morale, sometimes we don't hesitate to say they are punished by God due to Karma.

Cheers!

 

[Yamaka]

Many of my friends and colleagues have asked me, "If you don't believe in God, then what's guiding you from inside?"

I said, "My Free Will, my hard work and well thought out ambitions!"

They asked, "How will you know how to treat others?"

I said, "Simple.. I know very well how others should treat me! Then I treat others the same way or better!"

They asked, "What will you do, if there is impending danger or death?"

I said, "See whether you can avoid the impending danger by your intelligence and knowledge....if not, just let it happen; if death comes just take it... and even if you believe in Gods and prayers, they ALSO can't do anything about it!"

Folks, life is simple; please don't complicate it....

Let me enjoy my political, social and economic freedoms (aka, my Moksha) that I have.... for I may be dead and gone anytime!

Peace..

ps. I am a great believer in Karma or Action IN THIS LIFE, here in this world; you succeed or fail according to your Action here in your life. Poorva Karma is a crap!

 

[DrBarani]

Greetings.

A God answering prayers, a God conducting creations, a God deciding our 'fate' does not exist. I am not even agnostic about this. Either it is there or it is not there.

I am not willing to enter in an usual, circular debate about this.

God was created by us for our own psychological benefits. Over the period, we have given too much importance for that concept due to our gullibility and inorder to fulfil our personal gains.

Now we have come to such a situation, when we see someone struggling in life, instead of boosting his/her morale, sometimes we don't hesitate to say they are punished by God due to Karma.

Cheers!

Firstly, "either it is there or it is not there" is a sad consequence of using proportional binary logic. Only this binary logic leads to circular arguments. However, there are logical frameworks far better than that simple Yes/No logic. Unfortunately I can't get into a teaching class in this forum about different logical structures. As a pointer, The Jain's Syad Logic is an inference based logic that does not lead to such strange paradoxes in binary logic.

One might say "man invented the concept God". Another might say "man recognized the possibility of God".

 

[Yamaka]

"One might say "man invented the concept God". Another might say "man recognized the possibility of God"."

That's fine... but the same man who recognized the possibility of God should not be living in abject poverty, because of the belief that his God "did not give him a good life".

About 70% of the world population lives in abject poverty solely because of this belief in their Gods, and the neglect of their Free Will, smart planning and hard work.

That's a sad reality...

 

[Raghy]

Sri.Dr.Barani, Greetings.

One might say "man invented the concept God". Another might say "man recognized the possibility of God".

If we 'recognise the possibility' of existence of something, then we tend to affirm the possibility. We tend to work on proving the existence. That's how we advance in all kinds of research work. But, in the case of God, we tend to believe, we tend to have faith. That's why I can't see 'man recognising the possibility of God'.

Cheers!

 

[tks]

Firstly, "either it is there or it is not there" is a sad consequence of using proportional binary logic. Only this binary logic leads to circular arguments. However, there are logical frameworks far better than that simple Yes/No logic. Unfortunately I can't get into a teaching class in this forum about different logical structures. As a pointer, The Jain's Syad Logic is an inference based logic that does not lead to such strange paradoxes in binary logic.

One might say "man invented the concept God". Another might say "man recognized the possibility of God".

I like the way you succinctly explain things! I could learn that from you!

The title itself in some sense has no meaning without a definition of what God is though people may think they have a common definition.


There is a concept of subjective 'personal God' that answers to one's prayer and intervenes. This cannot be established 'objectively' since it is subjective by definition. A person who has 'faith' only in the binary logic will have faith subjectively that there is no personal God. In that sense an atheist is a 'believer' also. If they actively promote their views to others then they are members of a class of an unorganized religion.

It would not make any sense to talk about proof of a subjective God or lack of one to anyone.

To prove anything objective would require a commonly understood set of axioms that are 'self evident'. But if the said God is the creator of all those axioms by definition then it is not possible to 'prove' its existence within the world of these axioms only. So it would not make sense to try to prove the existence or lack thereof of God objectively.

Ultimately it is not possible to prove the existence of anything or anyone since everything we subjectively experience of the so called 'objective world' are a set of mental events. The only one that is self evident is our own sense of self and there is no measurement or logic - including Jain's 7 step logic (which are all mental events) to know the nature of this self.

Therefore the only thing we can conclude is that : if a concept of personal God is helpful in reducing one's worry then by all means let us practice it and not put down the atheists. If a concept of personal God does not make sense and it makes us feel more powerful to think that we are in control of our world then by all means let us continue our path but not put down those that have a sense of personal God since we are no more logical than those theists.

If neither of these make sense to us let us investigate further and discover the different definition of Isvara (not using the word God on purpose) and find out why Vedanta has the final word on this and has completely resolved all these apparent contradictions. However for most of us it is not possible to "get this" without enormous effort and preparations lasting for probably a life time! So why bother since this is not a route for most of us . So without investigations that is not easily possible of Vedanta, I would say please let us nott put down those that study this subject.

Bottom line: Do not put down others, continue with what works for you - when you run into contradictions in life that your belief system does not yield results you may make an effort to investigate the other possibilities. Let us live and let live. If someone is bent on 'converting' others to their thinking, whether it is organized or unorganized let us join hands and fight those elements.

 

[ShivKC]

validating the existence of GOD in terms of wealth is an absurd logic.. acquiring wealth is not alone the purpose in this life. if so, atheist had to prove their stand, that wealth is their sole motif in this world..

and no religions has made people holy based upon their wealth or being rich.

Osama, Escobar, A.Raja, harshad metha must have been Sants of their respective religion by this time.

before americo vesbugi, the whole of America's native indians were living under abject life.. they had no access to any organised religion. they never had a tiled roof to sleep..whats is the atheist answer to that?



religion talks about good moral life and happiness.. can 'THE MONEY' , the object which the atheists like to benchmark it against theist, can say, money can bring HAPPINESS.

still i'm getting echoes of Paul Mc Cartney singing in his எட்டு கட்டை voice" CANT BUY ME LOVE, yeh, Money cant buy me LOVE.. "... Being rich cant buy me happiness.

 

[Haridasa Siva]

To me, God exists. Why?

1. He is like my master. That underlines the need to be humble.
2. He gives me moral support in times of distress.
3. He would keep quiet even when I complain
4. He is the one Whom I can approach anytime anywhere

 

[Yamaka]

"No!" the customer exclaimed. "Barbers don't exist because if they did, there would be no people with dirty long hair 'n untrimmed beards, like that man outside."

""Ah, barbers DO exist! What happens is, people do not come to me.
"Exactly!- affirmed the customer. "That's the point! GOD, too exist!

What happens, is, people don't go to him 'n do not look for him. That's why there is so much pain 'n suffering in the world."-- post #1

The real issue is NOT that people don't go to Him... millions and millions go to Temples, Mosques and Churches every hour of every day! A good majority of the world population is immersed in Orthodox Religiosity where daily prayers to God Almighty are the way of life, even neglecting hard work, improving skills and good planning.

But the God never listens to their poojas and prayers... because He is non-existent!

That's the point of contention all along...

Peace be with ALL.

 

[ShivKC]

AA...But the God never listens to their poojas and prayers... because He is non-existent!

BB...Peace be with ALL.

AA.. alright, you are so much convinced so.. so,. why dont you prove HIS non existent, with all your academic, scientific, statistical claims.. why just end with this off the collar statements?

BB. another atheist Stalin/Lenin said , 'Kill em all'.. on what basis you are going to condemn him, of you being an atheist? from where you are going to get/refer validated roots, for your claim?

we are not going circular here!