God Exists

[sravna]

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Thank you. I truly feel honored by such words. I am merely a peasant in the democratic republic of Scientists!

Personally I think Mr.Sravna's posts are exemplary and superior quality. He is able to see the big picture. My posts were rather easy because I was attacking the weakest argument (paradox). Other than that, I think most posters, including Mr.Nara, are well above my talents. Perhaps Mr.Nara threw one easy ball and I charged at it. That doesn't change the game!

Shri Barani,

You are indeed modest. Everyone has his strong and weak points. And without doubt you excel in the grasp and analysis of a problem. Definetly I will fall short of your caliber in that. Any way thanks for the compliment.

Regards

 

[C RAVI]

Thank you. I truly feel honored by such words. I am merely a peasant in the democratic republic of Scientists!

Personally I think Mr.Sravna's posts are exemplary and superior quality. He is able to see the big picture. My posts were rather easy because I was attacking the weakest argument (paradox). Other than that, I think most posters, including Mr.Nara, are well above my talents. Perhaps Mr.Nara threw one easy ball and I charged at it. That doesn't change the game!

Dr.Barani,

As you have stated, Shri Sravna's post are exemplary and speaks volume even in his short form of writing. Sri Sravna's articulate write up not only shows his perfect knowledge and understanding, but lucidly projects the depth of the truth of the God’s formation in a very matured and gentle manner. As well, humility is the essence of his write up.

Dr.Barani, the quality of your posts are no different than Sri Sravna's, IMHO. Your questioning, answering, reasoning and explanations of all possibilities and impossibilities, logically, mathematically etc..etc are just mind blowing. IMO, you have the highest caliber to face head on with the Intelligence and talents of Shri.Nara. Still, your humility is something that should not be ignored to appreciate.

Hats off to you, Sir.

I thank you and Sri Sravna so much for all the contributions on behalf of Theists, in answering the modern/scientific world.

 

[renuka]

If we realize that physical energy is the projection of spiritual energy, it is easier to see that the universe is simply a projection and accept that its source is God and also to accept the presence of God.

Also, every physical thing has an underlying holistic energy.Interpreting using senses alone gives a wrong notion about the nature of this holistic energy. Consider a speck of dust C which let us say is made of parts A and B which we are able to comprehend. Also the holistic energy of C is greater than that of the sum of its parts. But what we see as dust is really not that but represents the God Himself. The reason we see the dust is because our self is evolved only to such an extent that interconnections in space only are clearly seen and thus we see the physical whole. The interconnections through time is not fully grasped or in extreme cases never grasped and therefore we see that illusive thing only.

Thus to see God we need to comprehend the reality in totality and grasp the spiritual essence. This is where the expereinces of the mind is important which alone can grasp the interconnections through time. Sense organs cannot do that.

Sravna,

I must say..thats a very well written post.Let me just add a point.

Physical energy perceived through the senses is the Macrocosm and Spiritual energy perceived through the Antahkarana is the Microcosm.
Both are the projections of the Supreme Energy refracted through the prism of Avidya and we humans are still trying to decipher the colors of it and failing to admire the beauty of this rainbow.

 

[Yamaka]

Who's a Doctor?

Dear Raghy:

I am against indiscriminate use of the word "Doctor". In my view it must be given to a person who has earned it via rigorous credentials. That's why I call the holders of the following (not limited to) degrees as Doctors:

MD
PhD
DSc
JD etc. etc.

I will call a person with an MBBS as a physician. My reference to what's happening in Haiti is just to point out how the word "Doctor" is abused.

In no way I intended to hurt anybody by my statement. Ms. RK is a fine person, although I believe she is deep into "Superstition and Fear" called Theism. What to Believe or Why to Believe is her Civil Right, I admit.

Some how, of all the protests by the "angry theistic gang", I felt to address you on this issue.

Kindly

Y

ps. My position on this issue is nothing to do with whether Medicine as practiced in the US is superior to any other place or not. Or whether a degree from Manipal is good or not.... they are issues manufactured by the other Vedic people! Lol.

 

[sravna]

Dr.Barani,

As you have stated, Shri Sravna's post are exemplary and speaks volume even in his short form of writing. Sri Sravna's articulate write up not only shows his perfect knowledge and understanding, but lucidly projects the depth of the truth of the God’s formation in a very matured and gentle manner. As well, humility is the essence of his write up.

Dr.Barani, the quality of your posts are no different than Sri Sravna's, IMHO. Your questioning, answering, reasoning and explanations of all possibilities and impossibilities, logically, mathematically etc..etc are just mind blowing. IMO, you have the highest caliber to face head on with the Intelligence and talents of Shri.Nara. Still, your humility is something that should not be ignored to appreciate.

Hats off to you, Sir.

I thank you and Sri Sravna so much for all the contributions on behalf of Theists, in answering the modern/scientific world.

Dear Ravi,

There have been contributions from a number of you. In general I find the caliber of the members in this forum to be very high and barring a few instances there is a lot of focus on the content. Since the forum members are more or less equally divided in outlook, readers get to see some indepth analysis on the pros and cons of many religious and soicial matters. The management is doing a great service in helping to hold these discussions.

 

[Yamaka]

To ALL the Theists who can solve problems on some logical equations:

1. Do you believe that Gods are Merciful, Omnipotent and All Knowing?

2. Do Gods control every movement of everything in this world?

If you do, then you have a theological responsibility to answer "Why so much poverty and sufferings all around us, in India and elsewhere?"

"Yaen Kadavul Engale Padachan, Samihala, so poor and downtrodden?"


​Peace to ALL.

 

[ShivKC]

Who's a Doctor?

Dear Raghy:

I am against indiscriminate use of the word "Doctor". In my view it must be given to a person who has earned it via rigorous credentials. That's why I call the holders of the following (not limited to) degrees as Doctors:

MD
PhD
DSc
JD etc. etc.

a simple question. who has given you the authority to define that term, DOCTOR ? in my word and vocabulary, i may call him as a Davanthiri, do you have any problem with that. the term doctor could also be used to say ' satyam infotech has doctored their book of accounts', where the term doctor is used as verb?

to me, doctor is the one 'who saves the life'.. interestingly, when my wife was admitted in manipal hospital for delivery, I used to pamper the mid wife, who used to teach my wife about the techniques of breast feeding on the first day, this way... 'Doctor, please help my wife on this, she is quite new!"..

the term doctor can be used with all usages of english... verb, noun, adverb, adjective etc etc...

to me, if a lay man had administered CPR and saved the life of my father, to me , he is a super Doctor..

so, lets not try tantrums here.. anyway, apologize for shifting form the topic..

in line with the topic of this thread, do you want to call the doctor as a theist or atheist! )

having got tired with answering your raving 'why god has given poverty', i rebut asking this .........: why that part of world which didn't believe in god 2000 years ago, still suffered with poverty, hunting for food,and lived on the trees like a monkey life, where as their counterparts, could have a good recording of their history of interactions with god , kingdom, in the name of statues,paintings , culture, traditions etc.

 

[ShivKC]

If you do, then you have a theological responsibility to answer "Why so much poverty and sufferings all around us, in India and elsewhere?"

"Yaen Kadavul Engale Padachan, Samihala, so poor and downtrodden?"
.

sir, if i am not hurting you here, probably, you need to have a good skill of comprehending about what the posts are saying about.

i have shared few thoughts about how poverty is a part of life, and has its own happiness, incl a post addressed to sh.nara... I have quoted, happiness is all what matters, even if its with your set limitations of rs.150 or $ 150.. but you havent responded ...


anyways, I find you have a valid point to discuss.. why god has given poverty?.. could you please stick to this point and attempt to have a debate about it, instead of parroting the same point!..if you agree, we both are in the same platform. pls dont re post the same questions.

it was addressed, and I had 4 likes on that post of my response to you on the same subject, why there is a poverty in the supposedly god's land..pls read that and post a counter.. thank you sir

 

[C RAVI]

To ALL the Theists who can solve problems on some logical equations:

1. Do you believe that Gods are Merciful, Omnipotent and All Knowing?

2. Do Gods control every movement of everything in this world?

If you do, then you have a theological responsibility to answer "Why so much poverty and sufferings all around us, in India and elsewhere?"

"Yaen Kadavul Engale Padachan, Samihala, so poor and downtrodden?"


​Peace to ALL.

Sri Yamaka,

As a mere human being, I too have lots of question to pose to God. I can't say that I have everything in my life to praise God in all his glory.

As a struggling man with lots of predicaments all through, I can have lots and lots to consider God merciless.

But Sir, I have nothing to complain, I have no doubts and I have no pessimism towards God. It just depends on what one could understand the subtle behavior of the nature/God.

If every questions are solvable and answerable by us, than for sure we can never ever make death a possibility in this world.

However the world advances in science and technology with all high-end micro mini chips, the ultimate remote is in the hands of the God. We can enjoy the comfort of our discoveries, but can't make men to get pregnant and deliver baby, can not sustain Sun 24 hours to provide light, can not produce a unique plant/flower/fruits/vegetable as a new variety, can not avoid the outburst of the violent volcano/cyclone/earthquake etc.., can not convert a 5 years young child to a grown up adult in his/her 6th year, can not avoid death, can not hold the time, can not rewind and fast forward the time...There are many such things, that this advanced scientific world can never achieve.

The answeres for the questions that you have raised, have to be sought within on self. Until than, no answers can make us understand and convince us.

May all the soul attain highest realization with belief and meditation and get rid of doubt, sorrow, pain and sufferings.

 

[nachi naga]

To ALL the Theists who can solve problems on some logical equations:

1. Do you believe that Gods are Merciful, Omnipotent and All Knowing?

2. Do Gods control every movement of everything in this world?

If you do, then you have a theological responsibility to answer "Why so much poverty and sufferings all around us, in India and elsewhere?"

"Yaen Kadavul Engale Padachan, Samihala, so poor and downtrodden?"


​Peace to ALL.

who is asking this query?when you figure that out,then you realise god,imho.

 

[tks]

a simple question. who has given you the authority to define that term, DOCTOR ? in my word and vocabulary, i may call him as a Davanthiri, do you have any problem with that. the term doctor could also be used to say ' satyam infotech has doctored their book of accounts', where the term doctor is used as verb?

to me, doctor is the one 'who saves the life'.. interestingly, when my wife was admitted in manipal hospital for delivery, I used to pamper the mid wife, who used to teach my wife about the techniques of breast feeding on the first day, this way... 'Doctor, please help my wife on this, she is quite new!"..

the term doctor can be used with all usages of english... verb, noun, adverb, adjective etc etc...

to me, if a lay man had administered CPR and saved the life of my father, to me , he is a super Doctor..

so, lets not try tantrums here.. anyway, apologize for shifting form the topic..

in line with the topic of this thread, do you want to call the doctor as a theist or atheist! )



having got tired with answering your raving 'why god has given poverty', i rebut asking this .........: why that part of world which didn't believe in god 2000 years ago, still suffered with poverty, hunting for food,and lived on the trees like a monkey life, where as their counterparts, could have a good recording of their history of interactions with god , kingdom, in the name of statues,paintings , culture, traditions etc.

ShivKC -

Ignorance and arrogance is a deadly combination. When a person displays that in any form and they also have a deeply held belief system like a religious extremist, then it is pointless to try to forge a discussion !

It is always good to assume people are reasonable when you come across anyone but unreasonableness, arrogance, ignorance, lack of integrity etc are also part of the manifestation of Brahman!

Dr Renu has displayed enormous maturity and moved on, let us do too!

Just a friendly suggestion!

Regards

 

[Yamaka]

who is asking this query?when you figure that out,then you realise god,imho.

"Yaen Kadavul Engale Padachan, Samihala, so poor and downtrodden?"

This is asked by those "Religious Bhaktas" trapped inside the Gates of Hell of Poverty everywhere.... I am only asking the self-proclaimed Theists to answer them.

If they ignore, then it's fine with me..

These poor people are not asking for "huge wealth", rather a little better life in this wretched world.

Who is the typical poor family (in about 800 million people in total) in India?

The man earns about Rs.4000 per month.. he has a wife taking care of the family of two older unmarried daughters and the youngest son. Five people must live with Rs. 4000 income a month....these people are very religious; they all believe that their personal God is Omnipotent, All Knowing and Most Merciful....they worship God very many times a day!

 

[C RAVI]

"Yaen Kadavul Engale Padachan, Samihala, so poor and downtrodden?"

This is asked by those "Religious Bhaktas" trapped inside the Gates of Hell of Poverty everywhere.... I am only asking the self-proclaimed Theists to answer them.

If they ignore, then it's fine with me..

These poor people are not asking for "huge wealth", rather a little better life in this wretched world.

Who is the typical poor family (in about 800 million people in total) in India?

The man earns about Rs.4000 per month.. he has a wife taking care of the family of two older unmarried daughters and the youngest son. Five people must live with Rs. 4000 income a month....these people are very religious; they all believe that their personal God is Omnipotent, All Knowing and Most Merciful....they worship God very many times a day!

Sri Yamaka,

Worship!!! Worship!!!! Worship!!!! Keep on Worshiping to get the bare minimum of your requirements...

Who asked people to worship and worship, every day, every hour, to get at least the bare minimum of the requirements? GOD??

Theist who believes God and his purposes and want to get relieved of all the pains, should go to jungle or hills or caves to live as a layman without any wants, desires, commitment and just be in worship, meditating God and keep praising all his glory..

But, we humans don't want to do that in this world. So instead going to jungles, hills, caves, we want to live in this high tech world and facing all the consequences and challenges of the society of this world, want to achieve the bare minimum with the help of God. And screaming....

Saami Nee Kallu...Nee waste...Nee veenaponavan...Nee chumma dupu...Enna sami idhu? En enakku kunjam maavadhu karunai kaataamal varumaile vaaturay? Onakku enna kirukku? Illa nee poli yaa? Illa unniya nambaravanga naange emaali yaa?

Sami enga munnadi vaa. Vaayi thora..Badhila sollu...Engalodiya vedhanaiyilla unnaku enna sandhosham? Nee ena saddist aa? Unakku enna payithiyamma? Nee enna rakshasanna?

No one gonna get any straight answers to those above questions in grief. What to do? Majority of we sufferers are asking such questions at some point of time, in some or other way.

Sami I asked you for a job. You gave me with hardship. Sami I wanted a girl/boy to marry, You gave me with hardship...Sami I asked for a child, You gave me with hardship, Sami I asked for better living, a descent living for my child, You seem to be now ignoring. What's the justice here? When you could not help me in this tough situation, than why you gave me all this so far, that too with all the hardships?

Saami, ithu enna nyaayam? Eniye kirukan ena ninaichutiya??? Yen kathula ippadi oru poovai suththitiye...Nee enna mosakarana???

Great souls, having understood the existence of God and the purpose of his rule of the nature, started having and preaching the belief that, if we surrender to God and ask for apology for our sins, knowingly or unknowingly, in our past and present janma, God will wipe off the sins at least to some extent and grant something for our wellbeing and peace of mind.

Many theist, thus cry to God, to grant mercy on them and make their life little better.

As long as one keeps the patience, limits the expectations, be righteous, be humanist, be in good thoughts, talk and actions ever, one can expect many answers within one self and lead a peaceful life. But that's what is the challenge of all of the suffering souls. It's not easy to be in peace when they could not cope up with the basic needs.

What ever the reason, we humans desire to live and keep begging God with a hope of getting better some way.

God is omnipresent, omnipotent, omniscient. There is no change in it. People worship God or not, doesn't matter.

Sri Yamaka,

In your post #206, you asked this question -

2. Do Gods control every movement of everything in this world?


In my post #209, I answered your question, like this -

If every questions are solvable and answerable by us, than for sure we can never ever make death a possibility in this world.

However the world advances in science and technology with all high-end micro mini chips, the ultimate remote is in the hands of the God. We can enjoy the comfort of our discoveries, but can't make men to get pregnant and deliver baby, can not sustain Sun 24 hours to provide light, can not produce a unique plant/flower/fruits/vegetable as a new variety, can not avoid the outburst of the violent volcano/cyclone/earthquake etc.., can not convert a 5 years young child to a grown up adult in his/her 6th year, can not avoid death, can not hold the time, can not rewind and fast forward the time...There are many such things, that this advanced scientific world can never achieve.

------------------------------------------------

Instead of giving your response to the above answer, you are repeatedly echoing the same grumbling of the sufferers.

As an answer to your repeated broadcasting of the sufferer’s grief, please go through the same post #209 and this one again and again. You may able to understand and pass on the same to those sufferers for whom you are asking the same questions again and again, here.

Theists, as some technical, some philosophical and some spiritual persons have answered the queries here. If still atheist are not convinced, than only God has to show mercy upon the Theists, to grant some abnormal powers to make atheist understand. But still Theists believe and know that, God has his own rules and pace to enlighten ignorant Souls.

Sri Yamka, what ever I have expressed above, are not considering 'you' as the needy. What all I have expressed are in general for the atheist community, in this cyber world and real world out there, out of this cyber world. Hope, you would not mistake me, if you find my above post, rude.

 

[amala]

In the immortal words of Rudyard Kipling : East is east, west is west and never the twain shall meet.

So if atheists and theists in this thread are not able to reach a consensus, why not agree to disagree amicably rather insist on proving one-upmanship? Just a suggestion...

PS: Any pedant telling me east and west have met, kindly note that during Kipling's time, it wasn't forseeable. And currently I don't see the two camps on this thread agreeing either.

 

[zebra16]

[4] If our human minds are not advanced enough to fully understand, which I concede, then the best position one can take is -- we may never know the full truth of this question, not that there is definitely a creator god.

[5] Given the agnosticism of [4] is about a god who does not care about human condition, there is no reason why we need to care about that god in our day-to-day life, in other words, we don't need god to lead a caring, compassionate, and fulfilling life.

This is my considered opinion. I welcome any reasonable counters.

Namaste Sri Nara Sir,

Item no. [5] can arise only on the premise that God exists, hence the following argument.

Man needs God (according to theists) but the converse is not conceded to. So is caring or non-caring for each other on mutual basis logical? A burglar does not care whose house he is breaking into, but can the house-holder be equally indifferent?

Regards,

narayan

 

[C RAVI]

In the immortal words of Rudyard Kipling : East is east, west is west and never the twain shall meet.

So if atheists and theists in this thread are not able to reach a consensus, why not agree to disagree amicably rather insist on proving one-upmanship? Just a suggestion...

PS: Any pedant telling me east and west have met, kindly note that during Kipling's time, it wasn't forseeable. And currently I don't see the two camps on this thread agreeing either.

Dear Amala,

You are right. I am gonna give up on this debate and let myself and the atheist at peace. Thank you for your message. May be God enlightened me to not to break my head

 

[zebra16]

Namaste Sri Nara Sir,

I have stated my own position many times. I shall repeat it here, (i) there is no personal god who cares about human affairs, this is readily seen, and (ii) a supernatural creator deity is illogical because it leads to who created this deity -- an infinite regress.

Cheers!

The above is the operative part of summarisation of your stand. Item no. (i) may be deemed to be conceded to by the opponents as they have not raised any objection. As regards item no. (ii) Dr. Barani has stated that:

Further, let me show you an example of an infinite regression: x = 1 + (1/x) This is an infinite regression. If "x" is God, (1+1/x) is Who created God, and you can replace the 1/x as (1/(1+1/x))... infinitely. This represents your paradox rather directly. But what happens to this regression? It Converges. You see, infinite regressions DO CONVERGE to a value. They do not have to remain in endless loops. You put them in endless loops by treating "parent process" and "child process" the same. They are not the same.

My question is whether you agree with Dr. Barani's reply regarding convergence of infinite regressions to a value. (Frankly, I do not what it means - Dr. Barani, or anyone else, if you can, please elucidate). If they do converge to a value, is it no more infinite regression and will that objection fall?

I am raising this query for my own knowledge.

Regards,

narayan

 

[Yamaka]

In the immortal words of Rudyard Kipling : East is east, west is west and never the twain shall meet.

So if atheists and theists in this thread are not able to reach a consensus, why not agree to disagree amicably rather insist on proving one-upmanship? Just a suggestion...

PS: Any pedant telling me east and west have met, kindly note that during Kipling's time, it wasn't forseeable. And currently I don't see the two camps on this thread agreeing either.

Hi Amala:

I am not sure whether this question is an East Vs West issue.

Anyway, I agree with you that we may not get an answer to this persistent question in life : Why do religious God-fearing people suffer in abject poverty in India and elsewhere?

I ran into my family physician this morning: He is an MD, lives in my neighborhood a few blocks away from me - he knows I am an Atheist and he is an Orthodox Jewish. I asked him

1. Is your God Omnipotent, Most Merciful and Omnipresent?

With a slight smile he said, "I want to BELIEVE that my God is such...but I am not sure of anything..."

2. Why do God-fearing people suffer in abject poverty in the world?

"I don't know...maybe, they are so very religious that they spent too much time in the Synagogue/Temple/Church/at home worshiping God that they neglect to improve their skills, and to work hard to get good jobs etc...

I am not sure, anyway."

3. Do you believe in Karma or Action in this world?

"Yes.. I do"

4. Do you believe in Karma in the previous birth? "No.. I don't"

5. Why are you very religious going to Orthodox Synagogue?

"Tradition and Fear... you see Jewish people are persecuted everywhere for a long long time.... we want to have our own Community, we have too big families, I have four children (all mischievous boys!) to have "critical mass" to achieve political standing in the US... we can't afford to be very care-free like most of you.. we don't know what would happen to us in ten or twenty years here in the US.... we want to keep our Tradition intact... therefore, I am an Orthodox Jew.."

Oh.. man, Dr. AH you have been very kind and candid....

Peace be with YOU...


I guess this says it all, IMO.. It's all Tradition and Fear; and the lack of skills and hard work that people are poor!

I want to stop here; I am not going to dwell on this subject in this Thread anymore!

 

[Nara]

What! That is what *I* have been saying all along and you were fighting me! In addition, I have shown that paradoxes also do not offer any "disproof" of anything.

DrBarani, I am tired of this. Please go back and read the postings and see who said what from the beginning. Thanks.

 

[Nara]

Dear narayan,

Please permit me a minute of rant -- it is really tiresome to see my views repeatedly misrepresented to the extent it seems motivated by malicious intent. I am always ready for a serious exchange, but what I seem to attract is mostly personal or frivolous statements followed by self offered congratulatory kudos.

I don't know why it is difficult for people to understand (i) those who propose have to prove and (ii) inability to prove one way or another is not a proof of anything -- existence of mathematical paradoxes has nothing to do with any of this. To say so is to muddy the water.

Item no. [5] can arise only on the premise that God exists, hence the following argument.

Man needs God (according to theists) but the converse is not conceded to. So is caring or non-caring for each other on mutual basis logical? A burglar does not care whose house he is breaking into, but can the house-holder be equally indifferent?

I am not able to understand the purport. Please correct me if my response seems tangential. Point [5] was about a possible non-caring creator god. If such a god exists, it is not going to be influenced by our prayers one way or anther. Therefore, Man bothering to offer prayer is pointless. Then, I don't see why Man needs this god, whose existence itself may never be known to Man. If it is needed as a security blanket, then, I wish they would grow up. There is lot more fun to be had once free of the security blanket.

The burglar analogy does not work here. For starters, the existence of burglars is not an unknown. Then, the burglar cares enough to burglarize somebody that he chooses one of us. On the contrary, the uncaring god referred to in [5] does not care about any of us, humans and non-humans alike. He just doesn't care to burglarize anyone, so why shouldn't all of us be indifferent?

...My question is whether you agree with Dr. Barani's reply regarding convergence of infinite regressions to a value. (Frankly, I do not what it means - Dr. Barani, or anyone else, if you can, please elucidate). If they do converge to a value, is it no more infinite regression and will that objection fall?

narayan, I offer you my take. I have no intention to take DrBarani on again.

I see no reason why the fact that some infinite series converge to a finite value has anything to do with the fallacy of infinite regress with respect to a creator god. If this was asserted as self evident, even then it does not stand up to careful scrutiny. If this logic, or superior logic, is supposed to avoid infinite regress and lead us to the conclusion that a creator god does not need another creator, then, why can't the same logic, or superior logic, apply to jagat? Why can't the jagat come into existence without needing a cause? If an entity called god can exist without a cause, something that can be understood only by abandoning ordinary logic and adopting superior logic, then the same superior logic can be used to assert that jagat exists without a cause.

And then there is the case of infinite series that do not converge to a finite value, what about them?

narayan sir, I stand by my comments in post #166. I welcome any serious discussion. But I am tired of responses that dance around the issue by putting words into my mouth, assuming my intentions, and making things up.

Cheers!

 

[sravna]

Dear narayan,

----
does not need another creator, then, why can't the same logic, or superior logic, apply to jagat? Why can't the jagat come into existence without needing a cause? If an entity called god can exist without a cause, something that can be understood only by abandoning ordinary logic and adopting superior logic, then the same superior logic can be used to assert that jagat exists without a cause.

-----
Cheers!

Dear Shri Nara,

Jagat cannot be existing without a cause because jagat is bound by space and time. Anything in space and time needs to have a prior cause. That can be traced back to only something that is beyond space and time

 

[Nara]

...So I would not think evolution is a result of chance but is purpose driven, the purpose being to create species which are more and more capable of understanding the world and the own self.

sravna, I agree that evolution is not a result of just chance. I am unable to agree with nothing else.

Existence of a soul is a conjecture, so is what the purpose of it all. The "knower" being distinct from the body is fraught with many problems.

You mentioned in one of your earlier posts that individual experience, even if unverified, is a valid source of knowledge -- please correct me if I am wrong. This may be harmless fun, except, it is this line of thinking that leads to extreme superstitions, the kind that makes otherwise educated and rational people believe in the experiences of godmen of all kinds.

Cheers!

 

[Nara]

Dear Shri Nara,

Jagat cannot be existing without a cause because jagat is bound by space and time. Anything in space and time needs to have a prior cause. That can be traced back to only something that is beyond space and time

Why? Do you have any special insight that the rest of us must accept without question? In other words, please do not just assert, explain why your view is the truth.

Please note, I am not saying jagat has no cause at all, all I am saying is, I don't know and so do you. We may never know. This does not mean we need to assume there is a cause for jagat that is beyond time and space.

Cheers!

 

[sravna]

sravna, I agree that evolution is not a result of just chance. I am unable to agree with nothing else.

Existence of a soul is a conjecture, so is what the purpose of it all. The "knower" being distinct from the body is fraught with many problems.

You mentioned in one of your earlier posts that individual experience, even if unverified, is a valid source of knowledge -- please correct me if I am wrong. This may be harmless fun, except, it is this line of thinking that leads to extreme superstitions, the kind that makes otherwise educated and rational people believe in the experiences of godmen of all kinds.

Cheers!

Shri Nara,

The proposition that body is an autonomous unit is fraught with greater problems IMO. Not very dissimilar from what is the cause of the universe.

 

[sravna]

Why? Do you have any special insight that the rest of us must accept without question? In other words, please do not just assert, explain why your view is the truth.

Please note, I am not saying jagat has no cause at all, all I am saying is, I don't know and so do you. We may never know. This does not mean we need to assume there is a cause for jagat that is beyond time and space.

Cheers!

For anything to exist in space without a cause it has to be self created. This definitely doe not make sense. Otherwise it should have remained in space for infinite time. The concept of infinite time also does not make sense. That is the reason the first cause should have been something that is beyongd space and time.