History : the Taj mahal

[tbs]

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So, dear Sri TBS Ji sir,

What is pseudo secular? What is 'nothing but to support the minority'? So do you agree that Taj Mahal was a temple of Shiva?

Regards,
KRS

Respected KRS ji,
I agreed many things in history...but you cannot understand the other
side of history....well no meaning of arguement/discussion here..
becoz we dont have guts to admit the reality..its truth..

regards

 

[tbs]

Respected KRS ji,
I agreed many things in history...but you cannot understand the other
side of history....well no meaning of arguement/discussion here..
becoz we dont have guts to admit the reality..its truth..i agreed not only
Taj Mahal but also KABAH in Mecca also Lord Shiva Temple.this may be
correct...

regards

 

[sapr333]

Lets say, if some one comes and stake claim, with 100% proof, that, his ancestor was burried under the house which we own now, and wished to excavate it, by digging all the floors or even dismantling the house.. Do we accept that?

What if tomorrow a jain/buddhist comes with proof that the current hindu temple was built over their shrines millenia ago..Pls go through the press link where jains claim Ayodya as theirs..

http://www.expressindia.com/news/fullstory.php?newsid=19686

These things will end up in chaos..


I am not here to accept/refute existence of a temple beneath Taj mahal. But the question is, should we demolish it?

 

[Seshadri Subramaniam]

sapr, the first question is that the GOI should order a thorough research into the origins of the taj...

once the truth is known (in either case), let the people decide...

 

[sapr333]

sapr, the first question is that the GOI should order a thorough research into the origins of the taj...
once the truth is known (in either case), let the people decide...

Dear Sesh, I think there is nothing wrong in exploring the truth, but is it worth it? Remeber exploring this truth cost a lot of money/time/energy and social unrest. Above all, does that truth add an value to the spirituality? Will that contribute anything to mankind?

Even if, will the Parliament (majority hindus) will support your view? Could Vajpayee be able to build the Ram Mandir?.

No.. because, majority of the Indians think (like Mr.K.R.S ) in a broad-matured-balanced-social-peaceful way. People of India at the moment are interested in their self-economic development. If this reasearch could bring some 500Bn $ to India, Im sure, I would also support your research?

Now I know why we Indians dont get Nobel Prizes!! Instead of digging out archives/excavating mud pots, lets spend that energy in 'Inventing an AIDS Vaccine" or some "G.M crop which can remove our poverty.. People of India wants that!!!

 

[sapr333]

Dear Seshadri, your outlook on this situation.....

Imagine, you are a grandfather at 95, with some 8 sons and 45 grandchildren with a huge loving joint- family all living under one roof. On this age, after 60 years a nurse comes and tell you, that, you last son (possibly your pet son) was not actually yours, and a mistake happened in that maternity ward in tagging the name on the new born child. Imagine, you got fully convinced too..

In this context, as an explorer of truth, will go out and do a DNA on your most loving pet son?

Here are following points which will run!!

1) There would be huge embarassement
2) Emotional upset
3)Property dispute may arise.
4) Fear of loosing the loved on.
6) How the villagers will take this!!

In this context, would you keep it within yourself, or go-out to face this and break apart a family?

Above all, let me ask you this basic question... What advantage you get by exploring truth in such a situation, expect for getting an emotional break to all the family members?

 

[sapr333]

so let's continue our quest and expose the moghul atrocities atleast now...

Dear MM, many a posters claimed, Akhanda Bharath existed up to the end of West Asia & Sanatana Dharma prevailed there....

If we are O.K with the demolishion of Buddhist/Jain temples just because they are a part of us, Im sure, (In order to maintain peace), you should also accept Moguls as a part of our once Akhanda Bharath and take it easy and move forward...

 

[Seshadri Subramaniam]

Sapr333, the example was interesting... , but unfortunately it does not fit in...

Let me give you an example... please suggest what would be more appropriate...

It is an office; the employees may or may not be bound by blood relations... There are certain hierarchies and a certain group of employees usurp a file (which is in fact the hardwork of another group) and claim it their own.

Now there can be two parts - the stolen file may or may not bring monetary benefits.. if it does, then the motive is clearly known... and if it is not monetary eg. to get back at the other group for teaching them a lesson... then clearly a motivational dent is perceived...

The boss is uncaring about it and he neglects or ignores the issue altogether...

Now this potentially has a very damaging effect on the aggrieved group - negative work attitude, increased aggression (or the other extreme ie., resigned to fate), hatred etc may develop which is not good for the functioning of the office... even clashes may occur for trivial issues... after a couple of years, the original issue may be buried, but the hatred will remain...

Now, after ten years, a new manager takes the place - and what should he do if he wants to solve the issue??

 

[sapr333]

Sapr333, the example was interesting... ,
Now there can be two parts - the stolen file may or may not bring monetary benefits.. if it does, then the motive is clearly known... and if it is not monetary eg. to get back at the other group for teaching them a lesson... then clearly a motivational dent is perceived...

Dear Seshadri,

Let's attack this issue with a broader perspective and right context...

The person who stole the file is no more with you., at work place. Similarly, Moghuls are not here with us, and there is no moghul kingdom.. and there is no Hindu King Babus amongst us to explain us the events,what lead the Khastriyas to surrender to the moghuls .. Whoom are you going to blame? The young moslem Indian Kid? Can you attribute the blame to APJ Kalam also..

Fine, you have every right to blame the followers,who were no way involved in it.. ie, Indian Moslems..Sesh, Points taken!!!.. But then, you have to agree with me, in my doctrinal view of 'Collective Karma' and "Reservations/ A.A' towards the well documented attrocities over the 2 millenia old societies, discrimated by caste-hindus.They already have some strong evident documents in their hands from sociologist/historians/legislators, where as you are yet to prove your stand with Carbon dating on Ayodya/Kashi/Taj( I believe in Carbon dating and half-life period of Isotopes). Some one said here, first come first, on debate!!!

If you tread his line, its the dalits, who would provide you with an already proven documentary evidence (you dont need to do an archeological test in this case)..

So, in this context, you are answerable on 2 counts...

1) To get back the glory of Dalits ( may be they can call it as Dravidians, in time-line)

2) Mu Ka has every right in asking to dismantle the Brahminism, just because , he is for sure both historically/Socially/Scientifically, that, like Moguls, casteism too did some thing wrong in the past. Dalit's too are asking you to explore the truth and bring back the glory of Dravidianism...I dont find any thing wrong in their asking, as long as people like Seshadri demands the other way....(Sesh,no personal attacks pls)

3) If Moslems has to sacrifice their own edifice/foyers just because of their ancestoral Mogul mistakes, then , we,equally have a lot more to answer and accountable... In line with that, according to me collective Karma could be a right doctrine.!! Awaiting your view on this..

PS:Sesh,I agree with you, that,truth needs to be explored at any cost.But then saying goes, 'Truth Hurts too!!".. In this light, I really appreciate KRS'ji's clever stand.. he is indeed smart(rather,Damn Smart), in treading a clever/smart path in line with a perspective worldview..

PS: you have only said that the example I said was interesting, but you never shared your views, inthat perceived grandfather analogy.. Pls attempt to share your views..thanks in advance

 

[malgova.mango]

Dear MM, many a posters claimed, Akhanda Bharath existed up to the end of West Asia & Sanatana Dharma prevailed there....

If we are O.K with the demolishion of Buddhist/Jain temples just because they are a part of us, Im sure, (In order to maintain peace), you should also accept Moguls as a part of our once Akhanda Bharath and take it easy and move forward...

sap!

Akanda Bharatic culture prevailed the entire world - In Borneo Forest , inscriptions are found confirming the presence of vedic culture,

The OLD Greek culture resembles VEDIC culture...

Rajaji has translated a work of one ROMAN KING which resonates with the high truths of our VEDANTA.

only vedic culture prevaded the entire world. Slowly it get degenerated over time , now a small remanent remain in INDIA albiet in a precarious position.

anyway.....

we are not ok with demolition of bamian buddha , so are we with innumerable temples belonging to the faith of others in Pakistan or any other territory.

Don't worry , I'm at ease .......

But this is too important piece of issue ..... I meant the whole world believes it was built by a KING. The status of this building is immense...

But if the KING did only superficial touch up to change the existing building and claimed it as his master-piece dedicated for LOVE - THEN THE WORLD SHOULD BE MADE KNOWN ABOUT IT.

common let's petition the government to dig out the facts..

Let's organise for signed petition to initiate an enquiry , if the govt doesn't responds , lets move it to UN body or UNESCO.

common...

 

[Seshadri Subramaniam]

sapr333, pls arrive at possible alternatives for the case which I have presented... then let us look at possible parallels...

thanks,

P.S. I do not think that your example fits the scenario here and hence I refrain from commenting...

 

[sapr333]

Dear Seshadri,

In that analogy, I have equated the Joint-family to Indian society with all its diversity as grand childrens..If you feel thats not suffice, I cant help it..

 

[sapr333]

I meant the whole world believes it was built by a KING. The status of this building is immense...

But if the KING did only superficial touch up to change the existing building and claimed it as his master-piece dedicated for LOVE - THEN THE WORLD SHOULD BE MADE KNOWN ABOUT IT.

Soon after building the TAJ, Shahjahan was put in to a solitary cell.. So, stop blaming him. He claimed any such thing?

If such a big pumpkin could be obscured in a square meal, that too just in 400 yrs, then I thing we all should feel shy of our 'Historians and documentations...

I mean, in just 400 years history could be distorted so much, then I feel, even Silapathikaram/Mahabaratha/Bible/Koran could have got corrupted..It seems,one can even say,that, British never conquered India, and prove his point it seems.. I dont think so, our ancestors were so weak in recording history!!

 

[s007bala]

re

Soon after building the TAJ, Shahjahan was put in to a solitary cell.. So, stop blaming him. He claimed any such thing?

If such a big pumpkin could be obscured in a square meal, that too just in 400 yrs, then I thing we all should feel shy of our 'Historians and documentations...

I mean, in just 400 years history could be distorted so much, then I feel, even Silapathikaram/Mahabaratha/Bible/Koran could have got corrupted..It seems,one can even say,that, British never conquered India, and prove his point it seems.. I dont think so, our ancestors were so weak in recording history!!

sapr

Bottom line,an eye for an eye and tooth for a tooth is what Islamic and Christians understand=nothing else.But our political leaders just do not have the spunk unlike American political leaders.Sad but true.

Recording of history is always subjected to a scrutiny.That is why Mughals were hell bent to destroy mandirs or erect mosques on top of mandirs.Burn our litreature or rob and send it to Turkey,just like Brits did with our treasures,even today the fat queen of england has our 'sukra-vairam' aka as kohi-noor diamond on her crown(sic!).

sb

 

[KRS]

Dear Sri SS,

My response below:

http://www.allaboutarchaeology.org/is-carbon-dating-accurate-faq.htm

a) I am no archeologist, but situations and circumstances also play a factor in carbon-dating.. assuming that there were no other factors to hasten the decay, then 350 years is a valid enough proof

No, it is not. Please read the margin of errors for such Carbon dating methods. It is plus or minus 350 years(!) and can vary from plus or minus 110 years to 850 years, depending on the place (Please see 'carbon Dating' Wikipedia), based on the technique/calibration used. First of all there is a problem of determining what was actually tested when by whom (Marvin Miller/Marvin Mills - who is this, and when did he test, employing what technique), and secondly no corroborating test was done. The test was done supposedly on a door piece stolen by this person and it begs the question - if this is the cornerstone of creating doubts about the monument's origins, why was it not legitimately done and corroborated?

b) Yes, could be, but that is another assumption! And where was it preserved for 350 years? How was a piece of wood so important that it was preserved for such a long time unless it were not part of an existing construct?
If that was the wood from the door, then other assumptions could be made. Like the door existed at the supposed 'mansion' bought from Jai Singh and the kept. Or as was the custom then might have been brought from some other palace. Who knows? All these, yours and mine are assumptions.

The assumptions are not wild. There was an established pattern of the moslem constructs - that is of building or superimposing on existing hindu temples. Have you visited Mathura?
Sir, the documents of ShahJehan themselves say that the land was bought from Maharaja JaiSingh. Now the question is whether the Maharajah sold a renowned temple or one of his palaces or just a ground in his family's possession long. I do not think a Hindu King will acquiese a Mausoleum to be built on a Shiva temple. Other temples were razed down. This one was bought. This is why it is a silly notion.

And again, Mr. Oak mentions the non-existence of documented proof of the taj, which is purported to be over a period of 20 years!!! Is it not strange?
There are plenty of documents, even detailing the total cost. What he is talking about are the daily wages sheets. Just the absence of them in the palace records does not mean they did not exist. If this logic is to be followed, then the account that there were brick scaffoldings that cost more than the structure should be thrown away. It just does not make sense.

The undisputed existence of a construct cannot be claimed in support of its argument, as it is in the case of the taj. Artisans might have been used, not to build, but to modify.
Modify what? Have you seen the structure? The existence of the structure, following the Persian architecture for a mausoleum to the teeth tells me that it is not a 'modified' structure. For it to have been a 'temple' it would have been one of the most unique temples at that time - yet no proof such a temple existence in documentation anywhere. (By the way, by tradition, Shiva temples are austere and not ostentatious).

There are so many arguments which Mr. Oak cites to prove clearly that it was a superimposed structure. This has to be analyzed in light of the situation and the type of rule that was in vogue at that period. Not just academic archeological opinions.
No, sir. What P.N. Oak has is imagination. No valid points. To unearth a deceased body from the ground to conduct an autopsy to find out whether someone was murdered or not, one needs some valid reasons pointing out that way. In the absence of such valid reasons, just because one non-academically qualified nut wants to question the authenticity of a building universally accepted as a Mughal Art, sorry, let the sleeping bodies lie in peace. I will need much more evidence to go foray in. Even then, I will not do it for the sake of social harmony.

A read of your posts tend to infer that hindutva is fundamentalistic, aggressive and blinded by vendetta. While professing a view on a topic, either we may explain the facts and remain non-comittal or can be plain sentimental. You tend to place facts, but then judge. It is such judging mentality that has coloured hindutva as fundamentalistic.

My intention was not to malign you or your thoughts, but just to show how misleading it can be to the other.

You, sir, are as much entitled to your opinion as are the others.
This is what is described about this whole incidence in Wkipedia by Elst:

"The writer Koenraad Elst sees Oak's claim as an example of a "funny attempts at compensation" within a "Hindu inferiority complex" arising from what he describes as a crackdown by "arrogant Leftists" on Hindutva following the murder of Gandhi."

I agree with this assessment 100%. Some of us somehow seem to feel that the Islamic invasion and the British rules diminished us as people. Yes, we would rather not have them happen. But because they happened, today we are better for it in many ways. We have now a united nation where all of us can thrive. Hinduism is thriving. I do not share the 'inferiority complex' of the Hindutva kind at all. I keep my head high, knowing that both the Islam and the English benefitted more from our association. In lots of ways we have 'civilized' them

So, I don't need to prove that underlying all these cultures Sanathana Dharma lives. This is exactly why I will not support any 'revisionist' history. Sorry.

Regards,
KRS

 

[KRS]

Dear Sri MM Ji,

My response in 'blue':

krs

i used the word "IF" , even if it is proved that the monument was a temple before, you guys will sit on to that. What you will do?
IF it was a temple, then yes, it was a temple then, NOW, TODAY, it is a world renowned mausoleum where a couple of people are buried. So, what do you want us to do? Tear down the mausoleum, where two dead bodies are paid respect to, and build a temple over it? To prove what? Remember, Taj belongs to us all, the INDIANS.

Just curious.... this may end up like another mosque over temple issue...
Nope, it never will. There seem to be cooler and smarter heads in India nowadays. Besides there are people like me who will do anything to let it not happen.

So don't worry nothing will happen to TM .
Sir, I do not worry. Why you have a worry?

but please don't curb the spirit of enquiry... saying the courts of India dismissed the case. We all jolly well know the state of court affairs in INDIA.
Yes, the state of court affairs in India is used to prove a negative argument. May be the courts are corrupt. But this is the SC which dismissed the PIL. To conduct a valid inquiry, one needs a valid premise. One can not go about and start an enquiry on anything based on what a nut case wants.

You are welcome to rebutt the 100+ odd point raised supporting that it coud be a temple.
Burden of proof is on the other side. I don't need to spend time answering to every imaginary point. Let the scientists answer. So far they have called him 'nutty'.

Don't brand anything or any issue under HINDUTVA and curb the very spirit of enquiry...
Revisionist Indian History is decidedly HINDUTVA. Let them prove their case. No one is going to assist them. Because the premise, intent and objective are all wrong.

Regards,
KRS

 

[vivekam.vairagyam]

assuming that oak is unreliable ....

i have a couple of questions .......


has anyone de-bunked the work of Prof. Marvin H. Mills esp points other than the carbon dating in his

Taj Mahal : An Architects Point Of View


http://www.esamskriti.com/essay-chap...of-view-1.aspx ???????

this link was presented in the first post too ...

is prof mills , an architect , wrong too esp with respect to points other than the carbon dating ?

what about the recordings of european historians travelling in the region a few centuries ago .. what is the basis of dismissal of those records ?

 

[malgova.mango]

Soon after building the TAJ, Shahjahan was put in to a solitary cell.. So, stop blaming him. He claimed any such thing?

If such a big pumpkin could be obscured in a square meal, that too just in 400 yrs, then I thing we all should feel shy of our 'Historians and documentations...

I mean, in just 400 years history could be distorted so much, then I feel, even Silapathikaram/Mahabaratha/Bible/Koran could have got corrupted..It seems,one can even say,that, British never conquered India, and prove his point it seems.. I dont think so, our ancestors were so weak in recording history!!

What a logician you are...!!!

Am I blaming anybody?

I said let's enquire and get the facts straight.. may be the king built it - who knows, since doubts about the origin has surfaced , I asked for a proper enquiry.. that's all... why you guys get emotional about it? take it easy...

Hey ! if one guy lies doesn't proove all others too lied.. tap,tap,tap.. what a logical perspective...

 

[KRS]

Sri TBS Ji,

What are the 'many things' in history we do not have the 'guts' to admit. That we were attacked savagely by the muslim/moghul invaders? That a lot of our temples were razed down? That there have been systematic conversions at the point of a sword? That there have been mass massacres/rapes of Hindus/Brahmins? That the British tried to rule us by 'divide and rule'? That they were probably responsible for blowing up the flames between the Hindus and the Muslims deliberately?

What do we need to admit more to, sir? Can you elaborate?

Regards,
KRS

Respected KRS ji,
I agreed many things in history...but you cannot understand the other
side of history....well no meaning of arguement/discussion here..
becoz we dont have guts to admit the reality..its truth..

regards

 

[KRS]

Dear Sri VV Ji,

Sorry to say this. but if this Marvin H. Mills exists and apparently he taught at Pratt Institute NY (no one so far could verify this), he has done a very poor job on this article, repeating verbatim what P.N. Oak has said.

Strangely enough there are no scitific papers on architecture by this person. There is one strange book, which looks at the famous mosque in Cordoba, Spain and tries to discredit it as not due to Islamic art (again the descriptions of the book pan his assessment) - sounds familiar! He also cites a Carbon test done on that mosque!

Seems to me this is a hack job - Professors who are academically trained do not write these types of critiques - they have ample footnotes and citations to back up their conclusions. They do not just raise questions (just like the academically untrained P.N. Oak did). I suspect a foul play.

Regards,
KRS

Regards,
KRS

assuming that oak is unreliable ....

i have a couple of questions .......


has anyone de-bunked the work of Prof. Marvin H. Mills esp points other than the carbon dating in his

Taj Mahal : An Architects Point Of View


http://www.esamskriti.com/essay-chap...of-view-1.aspx ???????

this link was presented in the first post too ...

is prof mills , an architect , wrong too esp with respect to points other than the carbon dating ?

what about the recordings of european historians travelling in the region a few centuries ago .. what is the basis of dismissal of those records ?

 

[venkat0111]

The above discussion shows the real view of Tamil Brahmins that "they can't accept the Truth".
Really Hinduism is a relegion that evolved & not created by anyone or organisation. The Best example is the Vedic Art in Tejo Mahalayam.
All the Brahmins know the story "The Cat will think that if it closes its eyes The world will become Dark" like that denying a truth is said to be the Brahmin arrogancy. You can hide the vedic art in the name of Modernisation. But the pure Hinduism is Development of the world. All the people will see one day, the world will follow Hinduism.

 

[malgova.mango]

please care to see the photos by Stephen ....

My doubts are multiplying now...

The goupram is a depiction of Purna Kumbha...

Why the 22 rooms are sealed?

why the entry is only of one storey?

Hmm... the plot is really getting thicker.....

no harm is giving a thorough enquiry.. this could be more of a palace than a temple.


very fishy......

 

[malgova.mango]

see the photo 19....

why the niches are empty ? ... hello KRS could you guess...

one doesn't need to be scholar or architect .. common - be a sport..

and what is the answer for photo 20..

and 21 , could you see the sealed opening - why one has to seal...
if it is not in line with the design one needs not create a opening at first place...


now, it is turning out to be like a "Ullangia Nellikani"....

So IS the BadSHAH a real BAD SHAH jahan ...? oh , oh my god..... unbelievable....

now see the inline comment in photo 22....

what you going to say about photo 23....

the verandah , cuppola are all indian architecture yar...

see why so many rooms for the deceased...

This is designed as a palace... ended up as a mosque.. What a story Line..

 

[malgova.mango]

SEE PHOTO TAJ 1-7 , it reminds me of old GEMINI FILMS set depicting palaces..

if all this didn't convince the govt... to dig the TRUTH , then I don't know what will.

 

[Seshadri Subramaniam]

Mango, if it aint it, then it aint it...