How to retain our left out community???

[Vaagmi]

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So, all the talk of reviving brahmin community, left-out is pure BS. Everyone acts to their convenience. If it is more convenient to act as a community than as an individual in certain matters, even non-conformists behave like community members. This is "ulaga nadappu".

So there is no place for a Dakshina mAra NAdAr Sangam or a Kaarappettai nAdAr sangom. They do not serve any purpose. They may give up all their share investments in the Tamilnadu Mercantile Bank.

There is no use of a Parsi Panchayat. They may sell of their sprawling old age home on the Fouress Road in Mumbai and wind up. They may also withdraw their payments on behalf of those rich old aged parsis living in one floor of the Tajmahal Hotel in Mumbai with 5 star comforts.

There is no need for a Vanniyar sangom. They may give up their rights over managing the Pachaiyappa Trust in Chennai.

Their motive for all these organized efforts is all BS.

I woke up and pinched myself and found I was day dreaming along with you.

 

[prasad1]

So then, let us just say, how all can become well developed. Shall we?

We definitely do not have to associate "brahminness" or "kshatriyaness" in everything we do. What is simple will give happiness.

From the posts of TKSji and yourself it is clear that everyone wants the good values (what ever that may be) preserved. Some on this site (brahmins of course) claim it to be exclusive to Brahmins. That is a mistake.
No one will argue against preserving good values. The so called "good values" have not been identified.
There is no universal "good Values" exclusive to any community. Some have aggrandized these good values to be exclusive to some mythical community (probably comprising of 1, that is themselves), very conveniently.

 

[a-TB]

Can we all just get along? -Rodney King

Why do people disagree so passionately about what is right?


Why, in particular, is there such hostility and incomprehension between members??

How can there be any 'saving' within a small community of TB if many are arguing about Kudumi?

Who consults scriptures to decide what to do?

Some, at least ONE is very divisive -us vs them within this small group - why so petty?

 

[கால பைரவன்]

Can we all just get along? -Rodney King

Why do people disagree so passionately about what is right?


Why, in particular, is there such hostility and incomprehension between members??

How can there be any 'saving' within a small community of TB if many are arguing about Kudumi?

Who consults scriptures to decide what to do?

Some, at least ONE is very divisive -us vs them within this small group - why so petty?

The crux of the problem is people seem to have so much animosity towards the "brahmin" label. That is why a value is acceptable but not the label. That this animosity towards this label is expressed in forum titled tamilbrahmins is the irony.

 

[renuka]

Dear Sravna,

Coming to Brahminess...If one goes by the Guna definition that it can be an accepted term otherwise its just going to be seen as a caste based identification.

I feel the ideal human should have Brahminess,Kshatriyaness ,Vaishyaness and also Sudraness.

Let me explain.

Brahminess =being equiposed in most situation and adherence to Sattva based thoughts,word and deed

Kshatriyaness= being brave and unafraid to speak the truth and stand up to prevent decline in Dharma.

Vaishyaness= being able to be support self with intelligent usage of resources.

Sudraness=hardworking and being able to render service when needed and handle herculean tasks.



That is why the Supreme Person is depicted having all Varnas in Him.

What say you?

 

[sravna]

Yes Renuka. I agree, some quality of all is required. An ideal mix would be divine and beyond humanness. I think as Shri KB says it is the label that is the cause of all the animosity and understandably so. But can we look beyond the labels and see the real person?

 

[auh]

So there is no place for a Dakshina mAra NAdAr Sangam or a Kaarappettai nAdAr sangom. They do not serve any purpose. They may give up all their share investments in the Tamilnadu Mercantile Bank.

There is no use of a Parsi Panchayat. They may sell of their sprawling old age home on the Fouress Road in Mumbai and wind up. They may also withdraw their payments on behalf of those rich old aged parsis living in one floor of the Tajmahal Hotel in Mumbai with 5 star comforts.

There is no need for a Vanniyar sangom. They may give up their rights over managing the Pachaiyappa Trust in Chennai.

Their motive for all these organized efforts is all BS.

I woke up and pinched myself and found I was day dreaming along with you.

There should be a place for a global community. A worldview that all humans are equal. A place where, instead of shrinking into the shell of a particular community based on racist or casteist lines, we all become liberated from such thoughts.

Dream along. For they bring to surface the deepest desire in us.

 

[Vaagmi]

There should be a place for a global community. A worldview that all humans are equal. A place where, instead of shrinking into the shell of a particular community based on racist or casteist lines, we all become liberated from such thoughts.

Dream along. For they bring to surface the deepest desire in us.

That is an ideal. All ideals are not immediately realisable as they are beyond the grasp in the present time.. Taking the human nature into account it would be practical wisdom to achieve nearer goals-management gurus use the term low hanging fruits. Castes are real. The casteism of descrimination can be eradicated with some concerted and focused effort. This is what Ramanuja tried and succeeded. But it was just one life time of a great individual.

Let us unite and be good and united brahmines first. Once we succeed we can set our sights at the next higher levels-may be good united hindus then tamils then indians and then the world citizens.

castes need not be equal to casteism with binary thinking identities. Once you get out of this mindset you wont mind being a brahmin.

Wake up and stop dreaming of impossible flying red unicorns. Stand on firm ground and handle the immediate problem in hand. Deepest desires will be taken care of in time as the capabilities of the community improves. We owe it to humanity. If Bs can not do that no one else can.

 

[auh]

That is an ideal. All ideals are not immediately realisable. Taking the human nature into account it would be practical wisdom to achieve nearer goals-management gurus use the term low hanging fruits. Castes are real. The casteism of descrimination can be eradicated with some concerted and focused effort. This is what Ramanuja tried and succeeded. But it was just one life time of a great individual.

Let us unite and be good and united brahmines first. Once we succeed we can set our sights at the next higher levels-may be good united hindus then tamils then indians and then the world citizens.

castes need not be equal to casteism with binary thinking identities. Once you get out of this mindset you wont mind being a brahmin.

Wake up and stop dreaming of impossible flying red unicorns. Stand on firm ground and handle the immediate problem in hand. Deepest desires will be taken care of in time as the capabilities of the community improves. We owe it to humanity. If Bs can not do that no one else can.

Is that (the highlighted) an ideal?

The problem with this thinking is that once you enter the burrow of "our caste", "our jati" feeling, it is impossible to surface. It is a one way track. You will start with good intentions and end with hatred.

If you want to act as a community, then let Bs act together in throwing away the caste tag attached to them. No declaration in public is required. Let us reform ourselves to be humans. After all, it is not too hard - when Iyengars are ready to embrace non-brahmin SVs, the day is not far when we can accommodate the other.

 

[Vaagmi]

Is that (the highlighted) an ideal?

why tie yourself in knots? It was not meant to be that. It was just a sentence which along with others convey a certain idea. It is like if take the sentence "one way track" from your post and ask you which way adding a smilie.

The problem with this thinking is that once you enter the burrow of "our caste", "our jati" feeling, it is impossible to surface. It is a one way track. You will start with good intentions and end with hatred.

when the whole society thinks interms of caste groups (complete with hatred and envy), color, religion, region, nations etc., no intelligent human being would like to be sucker talking about world free of boundaries. That is why this alternative. The idea is not to promote a brahmin army on the lines of numerous jihadi groups. If you are not able to discern the difference it is your mistake.

if you want to act as a community, then let Bs act together in throwing away the caste tag attached to them. No declaration in public is required. Let us reform ourselves to be humans. After all, it is not too hard - when Iyengars are ready to embrace non-brahmin SVs, the day is not far when we can accommodate the other.

caste tag will stay even if brahmins disown that. We are already humans and for several centuries we have remained that way. None of my forefathers went to the harijan labourer's house at night to demand sexual favours from the helpless women there. None of my forefathers killed or maimed a harijan for any crime that he committed, however horendous it might have been. None of my forefathers burnt to ashes the women children and men of the harijan caste because they demanded higher wages. Please go and deliver your lectures on human rights to those who indulged in all this and more. You may get a bloodied nose proving a point.

Even here you are unable say "when brahmins are ready to embrace". That shows what kind of the great and liberal iyer you are. A dirty mind reveals itself however hard you try to cover it up with talks of world citizenship.

Thank you. You can never understand because you are not at that level.

 

[sravna]

Dear Auh,

Labels by themselves do not cause harm. They serve a purpose. It is impossible to be without labeling in reality. The classification of people in accordance with certain criteria is necessary because society needs a variety of services from its members and to figure out who is going to do what requires classification. That is indispensable.

The idea of classifying people according to their level of spiritual development which I equate to maturity and and making them responsible in a major way for the development of society was a very sensible idea. The society needs one who is equanimous and balanced to be guiding other people and that was what the varna system made the brahmins responsible for as they were supposed to be people of high spiritual development. The rest of the duties were similarly in accordance with the possession of particular level of spiritual qualities. How better can you create an hierarchy of responsibilities than in accordance with the level of maturity?

Contrast this with present day hierarchy of responsibilities where one with the most parochial or selfish interests is the one who is most likely to be at the helm. Even nations follow that pattern. No wonder the world is a much much dangerous place now than it was 1000 or 2000 years ago. Science and technology and the presence of people who boast of being paragons of equality and such great virtues could not make the world a better place.

Our ancient systems were based on far sighted thinking and in fact is what can save the world from it destructive path. I am not an advocate of birth based systems but believe that mental maturity should be the yardstick on which people should be chosen for responsible positions. I also believe that the level of maturity of the people as a whole has to rise and this can happen only when people act based on values and not on selfish motives.

So I think the varna system is a sound one and it is more relevant today than ever before. You can change the labels
if one does not like them but the basis of classification is as good as it can get.

 

[auh]

why tie yourself in knots? It was not meant to be that. It was just a sentence which along with others convey a certain idea. It is like if take the sentence "one way track" from your post and ask you which way adding a smilie.

That was meant to show that "pontificating" is not a good idea and it may backfire on you. Whichever way you take, it is a one way; if that isn't simple enough for you, I am talking to the wrong person here.

when the whole society thinks interms of caste groups (complete with hatred and envy), color, religion, region, nations etc., no intelligent human being would like to be sucker talking about world free of boundaries. That is why this alternative. The idea is not to promote a brahmin army on the lines of numerous jihadi groups. If you are not able to discern the difference it is your mistake.

If the world is full of robbers, thieves and rapists, I presume you would toe their line because your "one-track logic" can only urge you in that direction. Hollow logic. You have no argument there.

caste tag will stay even if brahmins disown that. We are already humans and for several centuries we have remained that way. None of my forefathers went to the harijan labourer's house at night to demand sexual favours from the helpless women there. None of my forefathers killed or maimed a harijan for any crime that he committed, however horendous it might have been. None of my forefathers burnt to ashes the women children and men of the harijan caste because they demanded higher wages. Please go and deliver your lectures on human rights to those who indulged in all this and more. You may get a bloodied nose proving a point.

I think you are seeing a world through angry eyes. Physical violence is not all that counts. I have said before and I say it now: Intellectual violence is more dangerous.

Even here you are unable say "when brahmins are ready to embrace". That shows what kind of the great and liberal iyer you are. A dirty mind reveals itself however hard you try to cover it up with talks of world citizenship.

I just said a fact about Iyengars and maybe it has touched a raw nerve in you. Pray tell me how does it reveal a dirty mind? I am curious as to how you arrived at the conclusion. I have not named myself of any sorts and it is you who is trying to bracket me as a "great and liberal iyer". Are you not doing that which you condoned me for?

Thank you. You can never understand because you are not at that level.

Maybe and maybe not. It is really difficult to understand the flow of human thoughts and emotions. I really do not care any any certifications from you or from anybody else.

 

[auh]

Dear Auh,

Labels by themselves do not cause harm. They serve a purpose. It is impossible to be without labeling in reality. The classification of people in accordance with certain criteria is necessary because society needs a variety of services from its members and to figure out who is going to do what requires classification. That is indispensable.

What purpose does a label serve (to society) in the current times, for brahmins?

Where does the various intercastes and inter-religious groups label themselves if either group disowns them? Do they create separate groups and labels for themselves? Like brahmin-thevar, Koundar-pillai, Chettiar-Nadar etc? I have just asked this question for you to understand the absurdity of the whole issue.

The idea of classifying people according to their level of spiritual development which I equate to maturity and and making them responsible in a major way for the development of society was a very sensible idea. The society needs one who is equanimous and balanced to be guiding other people and that was what the varna system made the brahmins responsible for as they were supposed to be people of high spiritual development. The rest of the duties were similarly in accordance with the possession of particular level of spiritual qualities. How better can you create an hierarchy of responsibilities than in accordance with the level of maturity?

Ha, Dear Sravna, do you think that people were actually classified according to their level of spiritual development? Let us not get deluded by such lofty notions about our varna system.

Contrast this with present day hierarchy of responsibilities where one with the most parochial or selfish interests is the one who is most likely to be at the helm. Even nations follow that pattern. No wonder the world is a much much dangerous place now than it was 1000 or 2000 years ago. Science and technology and the presence of people who boast of being paragons of equality and such great virtues could not make the world a better place.

I dont understand. Can you give me some examples to support your claim?

Our ancient systems were based on far sighted thinking and in fact is what can save the world from it destructive path. I am not an advocate of birth based systems but believe that mental maturity should be the yardstick on which people should be chosen for responsible positions. I also believe that the level of maturity of the people as a whole has to rise and this can happen only when people act based on values and not on selfish motives.

I really dont want to comment on the ancient systems, but the rest of the stuff seems ok, even though judging that is a difficult task. The takeaway point from this para is that we all must collectively realize our roles to a peaceful and happy society and rise up to the occasion.

So I think the varna system is a sound one and it is more relevant today than ever before. You can change the labels if one does not like them but the basis of classification is as good as it can get.

This is a totally unjustified conclusion from your thoughts preceeding it. I see no coherency whatsoever.

 

[zebra16]

If you want to act as a community, then let Bs act together in throwing away the caste tag attached to them. No declaration in public is required. Let us reform ourselves to be humans. After all, it is not too hard - when Iyengars are ready to embrace non-brahmin SVs, the day is not far when we can accommodate the other.

You mean other castes/communities/religions will go on attaching or sticking some "tag" to a TB and a TB should life long be involved only in removing that tag?

 

[auh]

You mean other castes/communities/religions will go on attaching or sticking some "tag" to a TB and a TB should life long be involved only in removing that tag?

No, let us not get obsessed with the "community" feeling. I see a lot of posts about inter caste marriages and concern by the elders. This would not arise if we had a gentler approach to the tag. Instead of treating that as a taboo, why cannot we embrace it?

What are the issues you see in doing that?

 

[sravna]

Dear Auh,

The gist of my argument was that the classification of varna system was based on spiritual development and that is a very sound basis on which responsibilities and duties in a society are allotted to someone. Would you want to rebut that?

 

[tks]

Dear Auh,

The gist of my argument was that the classification of varna system was based on spiritual development and that is a very sound basis on which responsibilities and duties in a society are allotted to someone. Would you want to rebut that?

The varna classification is an observation about human nature. It is not a 'human' created classification based on birth like Jati / Kulam. There are 'about' 7 colors when white light is refracted through a prism. We humans label the colors and chose to human discernible number of seven. Varna labeling is no different and hence in my view one can only understand nature and not debate about it

By this classification, all human beings are thought to be born as Shudra. Many die so as well.

Here is a verse that explains it well.
जन्मना जायते शूद्रः
संस्कारात् भवेत् द्विजः |
वेद-पाठात् भवेत्विप्रः
ब्रह्म जानातीति ब्राह्मणः |
Atreyasmriti


By birth,every man & woman is a Shudra . Through various types of disciplines (samskaras), he/she becomes a dwija (twice born). Through the studies of scriptures, he/she becomes a vipra (or a scholar). Through realization of brahmajnana, he/she becomes a brahmana.

So we can have Kula Brahmana and Guna (Varna) Shudras and vice versa.

The emphasis therefore is in development of oneself and it is applicable to all beings including alien forms endowed with Viveka!

 

[prasad1]

I posted this in another thread:
The birth based caste tag has served its purpose and belongs to archives.
The poverty among "brahmins" is no different than general poverty in India.
The only sad part is these poor brahmins can be wasting their upbringing and education. They should realize that brahminism (as a profession) has failed them. They should learn a new trade. My family shastrigal educated all his children to be engineers and doctors.

So these lamentations about "our community" etc are fruitless.

YES belong to as many groups you choose, but also belong to Humanity in general.

I am not anti-brahmin.

 

[tbs]

The varna classification is an observation about human nature. It is not a 'human' created classification based on birth like Jati / Kulam. There are 'about' 7 colors when white light is refracted through a prism. We humans label the colors and chose to human discernible number of seven. Varna labeling is no different and hence in my view one can only understand nature and not debate about it

By this classification, all human beings are thought to be born as Shudra. Many die so as well.

Here is a verse that explains it well.
जन्मना जायते शूद्रः
संस्कारात् भवेत् द्विजः |
वेद-पाठात् भवेत्विप्रः
ब्रह्म जानातीति ब्राह्मणः |
Atreyasmriti


By birth,every man & woman is a Shudra . Through various types of disciplines (samskaras), he/she becomes a dwija (twice born). Through the studies of scriptures, he/she becomes a vipra (or a scholar). Through realization of brahmajnana, he/she becomes a brahmana.

So we can have Kula Brahmana and Guna (Varna) Shudras and vice versa.

The emphasis therefore is in development of oneself and it is applicable to all beings including alien forms endowed with Viveka!

hi

if this is law...im eligible for reservation.....but govt says....by birth brahmin is brahmin...if this is correct.....more than 80% birth

brahmins in the catogery and eligibile for reservation...

 

[tks]

hi

if this is law...im eligible for reservation.....but govt says....by birth brahmin is brahmin...if this is correct.....more than 80% birth

brahmins in the catogery and eligibile for reservation...

This is confusing Kula Brahmin (caste, reservation etc) vs Varna definitions which is based on nature.
Reservation does not apply to character and Guna composition

 

[tks]

The varna classification is an observation about human nature. It is not a 'human' created classification based on birth like Jati / Kulam. There are 'about' 7 colors when white light is refracted through a prism. We humans label the colors and chose to human discernible number of seven. Varna labeling is no different and hence in my view one can only understand nature and not debate about it

By this classification, all human beings are thought to be born as Shudra. Many die so as well.

Here is a verse that explains it well.
जन्मना जायते शूद्रः
संस्कारात् भवेत् द्विजः |
वेद-पाठात् भवेत्विप्रः
ब्रह्म जानातीति ब्राह्मणः |
Atreyasmriti


By birth,every man & woman is a Shudra . Through various types of disciplines (samskaras), he/she becomes a dwija (twice born). Through the studies of scriptures, he/she becomes a vipra (or a scholar). Through realization of brahmajnana, he/she becomes a brahmana.

So we can have Kula Brahmana and Guna (Varna) Shudras and vice versa.

The emphasis therefore is in development of oneself and it is applicable to all beings including alien forms endowed with Viveka!

In order to bring us back to what Sri Balasubramani intended to do with this thread (at least in my understanding), let me offer this.

Let us not confuse Varna definitions that are referred to in our knowledge scriptures such as B. Gita which is a classification based on Prakruthi or nature.

The birth based Kula/Jaati/caste is human made for historical reasons. One could argue that it was created with the best intent but has proved unsuitable in today's life where our work we have for a living is not tied to Guna requirement.

Besides the ongoing confusion between these two Sanskrit words - Kula and Varna - continues to create confusion and debates without purpose.

Based on various rituals (NOT ALL) that Kula Brahmins have followed it is possible to attain the expectations of a Varna Brhamana.
Such a lofty aspiration has to be done only for the welfare of the rest of the world. When it is done, such people even if they do not care will be respected (which is not the goal).

Today's Kula Brahmana is an ID and is tied to one's ego only. This is unsustainable because the focus of such an understanding is to lament about symbolism such as Kudumi etc.

Given that the practices, rituals and certain Karmas have lofty goals, I think the world is better off by ensuring that Dharma is protected by supporting such practices.

For example, the Gayathri mantra is a prayer for us, not me! With minimal vibakthi and Sanskrit knowledge one can understand the lofty meaning of praying for welfare of all.

The question that can come up: Can anyone, regardless of their birth Kula - can strive to be a Varna Brahmana via such rituals ?

My resounding answer - minority answer - is YES! but if they come to know the high expectations duties and sacrifice involved, they may change their aspirations.

Similarly many "Kula Brahmana and Varna Shudra" will run away since the Brahmana ID will be more about Guna and Character and not about ego ID.

A conference of people who feel similarly can easily be launched in South India. It need not be limited to TB but it is a good starting point.

There are other side issues of discrimination against Kula Brahmins in today's Tamil Nadu and elsewhere.
I think we need a few 'Varna Kshatriya' to help with fighting the adharma involved here.

Also when people strive to live up being a true Dwija and Viprah (reference to the verse cited earlier) I believe the fight against Kula Brahmana will precipitously drop by others.



As far as inter-caste marriages, embracing of Dharma with right intent will limit such marriages. There will be more children naturally in Brahmin family that wants to uphold 'Loka kshama' - or welfare of one & all.

With this said , I hope people can offer creative thoughts on how to enable the above all to happen. There is something worth saving.

BACK TO THE TOPiC

 

[yesmohan]

The varna classification is an observation about human nature. It is not a 'human' created classification based on birth like Jati / Kulam. There are 'about' 7 colors when white light is refracted through a prism. We humans label the colors and chose to human discernible number of seven. Varna labeling is no different and hence in my view one can only understand nature and not debate about it

By this classification, all human beings are thought to be born as Shudra. Many die so as well.

Here is a verse that explains it well.
जन्मना जायते शूद्रः
संस्कारात् भवेत् द्विजः |
वेद-पाठात् भवेत्विप्रः
ब्रह्म जानातीति ब्राह्मणः |
Atreyasmriti


By birth,every man & woman is a Shudra . Through various types of disciplines (samskaras), he/she becomes a dwija (twice born). Through the studies of scriptures, he/she becomes a vipra (or a scholar). Through realization of brahmajnana, he/she becomes a brahmana.

So we can have Kula Brahmana and Guna (Varna) Shudras and vice versa.

The emphasis therefore is in development of oneself and it is applicable to all beings including alien forms endowed with Viveka!

TKS,

A nice explanation !

Two of my friends who worked with me have some great traits. They are Kula Shudras and Guna (Varna) Brahmanas"

Of course, I believe that Mr. Bala has started this thread with an aim to achieve the collective wisdom to improve

the percentage of "Kula Brahmanas to be Guna (Varna) Brahmanas."

 

[auh]

Dear Auh,

The gist of my argument was that the classification of varna system was based on spiritual development and that is a very sound basis on which responsibilities and duties in a society are allotted to someone. Would you want to rebut that?

I do not agree !

The varna system was not spiritual at all. Our society was/is ritual oriented, and the system seemed kind of exploitation. If you want to further this, we can discuss more.

 

[auh]

The varna classification is an observation about human nature. It is not a 'human' created classification based on birth like Jati / Kulam. There are 'about' 7 colors when white light is refracted through a prism. We humans label the colors and chose to human discernible number of seven. Varna labeling is no different and hence in my view one can only understand nature and not debate about it

By this classification, all human beings are thought to be born as Shudra. Many die so as well.

Here is a verse that explains it well.
जन्मना जायते शूद्रः
संस्कारात् भवेत् द्विजः |
वेद-पाठात् भवेत्विप्रः
ब्रह्म जानातीति ब्राह्मणः |
Atreyasmriti


By birth,every man & woman is a Shudra . Through various types of disciplines (samskaras), he/she becomes a dwija (twice born). Through the studies of scriptures, he/she becomes a vipra (or a scholar). Through realization of brahmajnana, he/she becomes a brahmana.

So we can have Kula Brahmana and Guna (Varna) Shudras and vice versa.

The emphasis therefore is in development of oneself and it is applicable to all beings including alien forms endowed with Viveka!

I got this link about Atri Smriti from the net. http://vedicreserve.mum.edu/smriti/11Atri_Smriti.pdf

Perhaps you could go through the pdf and tell me where your cited para appears. I could not find it. Or maybe there is another source? All I could see was that the verse you have quoted is referenced widely in the internet.

Next is that notwithstanding the genuineness of the verse, it seems to have delved into the deepest graves of the vedic people. I do not recollect this system being followed in Ramayana where during Sita Kalyanam, the lineage of both the kings are given !! A kshatriya begets a kshatriya, a brahmana begets a brahmana, a vysya begets a vysya, a shudra begets a shudra - this was how it was/is.

Next is the Mahabharatha where we find Karna possessing qualities of a Kshatriya (in fact he is) but we find everyone scorning him as a soota putra. I do not see the great Krishna himself who supposedly gave the Bhagavad Gita, addressing the public that qualities define the varna, and hence Karna is a Kshatriya.

Please step down from your lofty thoughts about the varna system.

 

[sravna]

I do not agree !

The varna system was not spiritual at all. Our society was/is ritual oriented, and the system seemed kind of exploitation. If you want to further this, we can discuss more.

Auh,

Rituals have nothing to do with the classification. Could you explain the basis on which the classifications were made?