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How to retain our left out community???

  • Thread starter Thread starter V.Balasubramani
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Auh,

Rituals have nothing to do with the classification. Could you explain the basis on which the classifications were made?

I am only stating that there was no great emphasis on spiritual development or of the mind. The time was when everybody thought that rituals were the highest spiritual development; all one had to do was to propitiate the gods.

The system must have been made as a crude means to organize the society. Obviously.

If, as you say, the system was a means for spiritual development, then could you kindly tell me what was the mechanism available for a shudra to get spiritually developed. And who decided that?
 
I am only stating that there was no great emphasis on spiritual development or of the mind. The time was when everybody thought that rituals were the highest spiritual development; all one had to do was to propitiate the gods.

The system must have been made as a crude means to organize the society. Obviously.

If, as you say, the system was a means for spiritual development, then could you kindly tell me what was the mechanism available for a shudra to get spiritually developed. And who decided that?
Dear auh,

The idea is that people whose nature is the best fit for a job can perform it in the most effective way. Jobs come with responsibilities and duties. Obviously the most responsible jobs requires a high level of maturity and so those persons with a high spiritual development performed the most responsible jobs. I think you would appreciate when one performs a job matching his nature there is a positive interplay of nature and environment and so there is a lot of scope for development of mind and that is how the system facilitated mental and spiritual development. I believe the scriptures were the basis of this system.
 
Dear auh,

The idea is that people whose nature is the best fit for a job can perform it in the most effective way. Jobs come with responsibilities and duties. Obviously the most responsible jobs requires a high level of maturity and so those persons with a high spiritual development performed the most responsible jobs. I think you would appreciate when one performs a job matching his nature there is a positive interplay of nature and environment and so there is a lot of scope for development of mind and that is how the system facilitated mental and spiritual development. I believe the scriptures were the basis of this system.

You have not answered my question. "what was the mechanism available for a shudra to get spiritually developed. And who decided that?"

The varna system was by birth and by birth alone.

Moreover your belief, as you stated above, is dangerous. This is how easy it is to cloud people's intellect. Varna system = Job allocation. How convenient ! But the pleasant system hid a dangerous bomb within.

For argument's sake let us suppose that it was as you say - then how did one decide as to which varna they belonged? Was there a system to commonly evaluate the gunas of all the children at an appropriate age or every year to reclassify them and to allocate the job? The gunas of a person may even vary daily ! Drona did the job of a kshatriya but was not classified as such ! What do you have to say to this?
 
That was meant to show that "pontificating" is not a good idea and it may backfire on you. Whichever way you take, it is a one way; if that isn't simple enough for you, I am talking to the wrong person here.

Who is pontificating? The members here are the judges.

If the world is full of robbers, thieves and rapists, I presume you would toe their line because your "one-track logic" can only urge you in that direction. Hollow logic. You have no argument there.

Vechcha kudumi siraichcha mottai. Good. Keep it up.

I think you are seeing a world through angry eyes. Physical violence is not all that counts. I have said before and I say it now: Intellectual violence is more dangerous.

I must be alive first to face or experience any so called "intellectual" violence. Logic is elementary and it is pathetic that you missed it.


) I just said a fact about Iyengars and maybe it has touched a raw nerve in you. Pray tell me how does it reveal a dirty mind? I am curious as to how you arrived at the conclusion. I have not named myself of any sorts and it is you who is trying to bracket me as a "great and liberal iyer". Are you not doing that which you condoned me for?

You brought in Iyengars and thought you were hitting me. When it was turned against you you have started your usual trick of wriggling out. Members here know who is doing what.

Maybe and maybe not. It is really difficult to understand the flow of human thoughts and emotions. I really do not care any any certifications from you or from anybody else.

You thought I am issuing certificates. LOL. Thanks for recognizing my position here. But I do not issue certificates particularly to the trolls here coming to derail every focussed discussion to do some good to Brahmin community. But Brahmins are far smarter than you think. Wait and see. Hi
 
Dear auh,

The idea is that people whose nature is the best fit for a job can perform it in the most effective way. Jobs come with responsibilities and duties. Obviously the most responsible jobs requires a high level of maturity and so those persons with a high spiritual development performed the most responsible jobs. I think you would appreciate when one performs a job matching his nature there is a positive interplay of nature and environment and so there is a lot of scope for development of mind and that is how the system facilitated mental and spiritual development. I believe the scriptures were the basis of this system.

Dear Sravna,

I do not think spirituality has anything to do with handling responsible jobs.

I have seen people do meditation,have altars in their clinic,observe rituals yet do abortions.

I feel basic human values have nothing to do with presence or absence of spirituality.
 
Dear Sravna,

I feel you should try to view yourself as yourself without the need of the spirituality tag.

That is the only thing that is holding you back in your journey of understanding right now.

Generally from what I can make out from your posts and interaction with you in forum..you are basically a very balanced person and have a stable approach to life and existence coupled with views that are universal but your need to attach the spiritual tag is what that is holding you back from your full potential and destiny.

Don't get me wrong..I am not trying to sound like the Devil's advocate..I am being honest here..just let go of any tag..no matter how pure it is..even purity is nothing but a bond.
 
You have not answered my question. "what was the mechanism available for a shudra to get spiritually developed. And who decided that?"

The varna system was by birth and by birth alone.

Moreover your belief, as you stated above, is dangerous. This is how easy it is to cloud people's intellect. Varna system = Job allocation. How convenient ! But the pleasant system hid a dangerous bomb within.

For argument's sake let us suppose that it was as you say - then how did one decide as to which varna they belonged? Was there a system to commonly evaluate the gunas of all the children at an appropriate age or every year to reclassify them and to allocate the job? The gunas of a person may even vary daily ! Drona did the job of a kshatriya but was not classified as such ! What do you have to say to this?
Dear Auh,

Let us not use the standard labels of brahmin or shudra. That will facilitate unprejudiced thinking. Let us think that a person goes through various phases of spiritual development. Why is there different levels of spiritual development among individuals. Our belief is that a person evolves because of various experiences in various births. We believe that it is something every soul goes through. So inherently there is no discrimination in this. Science say we are what we are because of our genes. Spirituality says it is because of our karmas. Those who believe in only what they see are satisfied with the gene theory and for others the karma theory is more satisfactory. It is basically your point of view. But to me the karma theory gives a better big picture and I believe in it.

Basically I believe the philosophy of science has a fundamental limitation which cannot answer questions that go beyond the concept of space and time. It is a fundamental problem and science cannot answer it. My point is limitations of science should be understood and too much reliance on science and technology to shape our thoughts is not advisable.

The reason for the above digression is to show that a big picture understanding of reality is first needed. That is what our ancient Indians did and the solutions they offered were having the big picture in mind.

I have answered your question about mental and spiritual development of people when I said that the right job facilitates that.
 
It is not clear why these calls for a "place for global community" or "a community for all humanity" etc are being made and sought in lieu of say a "brahmin community". A "*******" exists but so does a "lions club" or "doctors without borders". One can be a member of ******* and also be a member of any of these communities. There are many such organizations. No casteist brahmin is preventing anyone from being a member of such clubs or formation of any similar new club. It is a pretense to claim otherwise and this is what betrays the intention of these casteless people.

How can these calls for this global equal community be considered sincere when the members who made such calls did not even bother all this time to start a thread or probably even contemplate about starting a thread? All they can muster is highjack the thread of others, mock them, call their effort BS, and to top it all accuse them as casteist and racists. But these accusations only remind one of the famous Shakespearean anecdote: "the lady doth protest too much".
 
Dear Sravna,

I feel you should try to view yourself as yourself without the need of the spirituality tag.

That is the only thing that is holding you back in your journey of understanding right now.

Generally from what I can make out from your posts and interaction with you in forum..you are basically a very balanced person and have a stable approach to life and existence coupled with views that are universal but your need to attach the spiritual tag is what that is holding you back from your full potential and destiny.

Don't get me wrong..I am not trying to sound like the Devil's advocate..I am being honest here..just let go of any tag..no matter how pure it is..even purity is nothing but a bond.

Renuka,

I agree with you. I actually am not attached to any tag. But when you are trying to put across your ideas it may give the impression you are attached
 
If, as you say, the system was a means for spiritual development, then could you kindly tell me what was the mechanism available for a shudra to get spiritually developed. And who decided that?

It was by reading itihAsam, purANam etc. Please refer to Brahma Sutra BhashyA of Adi Sankara.

That is the reason for the popularity of rAamAayaNam, MahABhAratam, Bhagwad Geeta etc.
 
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I do not agree !

The varna system was not spiritual at all. Our society was/is ritual oriented, and the system seemed kind of exploitation. If you want to further this, we can discuss more.

Difficult to agree with your opinion either. Ritual activity was thought to be for spiritual betterment. It was a precursor for the later day upaniSadic thoughts where *intent* itself is thought or made out to be equivalent of ritual activity. That is the reason for brahma yajnam.

One simple example will suffice. Giving Ahuti during the pUrnAhuti is believed to bestow the full benefits of the yajna that was performed.
 
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The varna system was by birth and by birth alone.

You are totally wrong. jAti was by birth and varNa was by occupation. jAtis themselves moved up and down the hierarchy of varNa ladder.

A raThakAra, a chariot maker was a high status person during rg vedic times and in fact hymns were composed in his honour, example RV 1.6.32. In rAjasUya fire sacrifices, he was the PRINCIPAL RECEPIENT of the offerings. By contrast, during mahABhAratjA times, the particular varna had moved down the scale considerably.

Contrary to popular perception and much cyber notes in internet, a Shudra was entitled to be a "yajamanan" for a fire sacrifice. He cannot perform the sacrifice himself but he sure could get it performed.

It is in no way different from the present day practice, where a BRAHMIN cant go to a temple to perform the pUjA himself, no matter how eligible and better qualified he is than the pUjari, but has to get the pUja or archanai performed by the pUjari. But it is not kosher to call this present day practice as "exploitation" nor is it politically expedient or correct to do so.
 
Moreover your belief, as you stated above, is dangerous. This is how easy it is to cloud people's intellect. Varna system = Job allocation. How convenient ! But the pleasant system hid a dangerous bomb within.

It is easy to get the intellect clouded in the other way too. Remember Vidura Neeti? It was a treatise for kings written by a so called low-class Shudra.
 
Who is pontificating? The members here are the judges.



Vechcha kudumi siraichcha mottai. Good. Keep it up.



I must be alive first to face or experience any so called "intellectual" violence. Logic is elementary and it is pathetic that you missed it.




You brought in Iyengars and thought you were hitting me. When it was turned against you you have started your usual trick of wriggling out. Members here know who is doing what.



You thought I am issuing certificates. LOL. Thanks for recognizing my position here. But I do not issue certificates particularly to the trolls here coming to derail every focussed discussion to do some good to Brahmin community. But Brahmins are far smarter than you think. Wait and see. Hi

I am only amused at your attempts to portray my posts as personal or community attacks. I was merely alluding to a fact and it was not at all intented to offend anyone. If this does not clarify, I cannot help.

Our discussion seems to have reached a point where exchange of ideas is difficult. I have nothing more to discuss with posts such as the above.
 
It was by reading itihAsam, purANam etc. Please refer to Brahma Sutra BhashyA of Adi Sankara.

That is the reason for the popularity of rAamAayaNam, MahABhAratam, Bhagwad Geeta etc.

That is so incredulous. According to Sravna's belief, it has to be decided according to the level of maturity. So, how does one decide the level of maturity? Can you elaborate?
 
That is so incredulous. According to Sravna's belief, it has to be decided according to the level of maturity. So, how does one decide the level of maturity? Can you elaborate?

Auh,

Other members correct me if I am wrong. Brahmins are supposed to have descended from rishis who were epitome of spiritual development.
 
Difficult to agree with your opinion either. Ritual activity was thought to be for spiritual betterment. It was a precursor for the later day upaniSadic thoughts where *intent* itself is thought or made out to be equivalent of ritual activity. That is the reason for brahma yajnam.
I have read and heard that purva mimamsa was all ritualistic and uttara mimamsa was the beginning of the surfacing of the philosophical.

One simple example will suffice. Giving Ahuti during the pUrnAhuti is believed to bestow the full benefits of the yajna that was performed.
Please refer to the surya upasthaana manthram recited during maadhyanyam where everything is sharathasshatham ... everything refers to the benefit of the self alone and not any great spiritual attainment.

Similarly, the samhitadhanam also refers to the accretion of all kinds of dhanam...

Each yajnya was performed with a objective in mind and the results were supposed to accrue to the kartha... I find it difficult to agree that it was all for some higher philosophical end. If at all there was any lofty ideal it was to obtain devaloka, or perhaps, pithruloka, and to avoid naraka.
 
You are totally wrong. jAti was by birth and varNa was by occupation. jAtis themselves moved up and down the hierarchy of varNa ladder.

A raThakAra, a chariot maker was a high status person during rg vedic times and in fact hymns were composed in his honour, example RV 1.6.32. In rAjasUya fire sacrifices, he was the PRINCIPAL RECEPIENT of the offerings. By contrast, during mahABhAratjA times, the particular varna had moved down the scale considerably.

Contrary to popular perception and much cyber notes in internet, a Shudra was entitled to be a "yajamanan" for a fire sacrifice. He cannot perform the sacrifice himself but he sure could get it performed.

It is in no way different from the present day practice, where a BRAHMIN cant go to a temple to perform the pUjA himself, no matter how eligible and better qualified he is than the pUjari, but has to get the pUja or archanai performed by the pUjari. But it is not kosher to call this present day practice as "exploitation" nor is it politically expedient or correct to do so.

I have to hurry off now to do an errand. Will respond to this shortly.
 
< Clipped >
Contrary to popular perception and much cyber notes in internet, a Shudra was entitled to be a "yajamanan" for a fire sacrifice. He cannot perform the sacrifice himself but he sure could get it performed.

I agree that a Shudra could get a yaaga performed; in fact Mahabharata, Shanti Parva says that according to Bheeshma's advice to Dharmaputra, a Shudra could not amass or (collect or save) any moneys except for getting yaagas performed.

But I am not sure whether this financier Shudra was allowed to enter the Yaagasaala. So, the Shudra could not have been a Yajamaana, I think. Even the mighty Kshatriya Kings and Ekacchatraadhipathis were given a seat lower than the Brahmin priests and other Brahmin visitors to the yaagas, I have read.
 
I have read and heard that purva mimamsa was all ritualistic and uttara mimamsa was the beginning of the surfacing of the philosophical.

Please refer to the surya upasthaana manthram recited during maadhyanyam where everything is sharathasshatham ... everything refers to the benefit of the self alone and not any great spiritual attainment.

Similarly, the samhitadhanam also refers to the accretion of all kinds of dhanam...

Each yajnya was performed with a objective in mind and the results were supposed to accrue to the kartha... I find it difficult to agree that it was all for some higher philosophical end. If at all there was any lofty ideal it was to obtain devaloka, or perhaps, pithruloka, and to avoid naraka.

Poorva Meemaamsa prescribed a certain set of yaagas. Anyone performing all these yaagas during one's life time here was imagined to adorn the front seats in the Pitru Loka and hobnob with the "angirases", the foremost of the pitrus who are supposed to be more or less equivalent to the Devas themselves.

At the other extreme were the "avara" pitrus (refer to the Tarpana Mantra उद् ईरतां अवर उत् परास उन् मध्यमा पितरः सॊम्यासः (ud īratāṃ avara ut parāsa un madhyamā pitaraḥ somyāsaḥ)) who fail to do any of these yaagas during their life time here (i.e., brahmins of the last few centuries at least, including Vaideekans & Vaadhyars but who did not perform any yaaga out of their own moneys! Such pitrus seem to occupy a status similar to Sudras in the Pitruloka and hence the prayer उद् ईरतां अवर = let (them) get the best of havis, even for one's Pitrus who have become the lowest class there in the Pitru Loka. Please note, incidentally, that all three categories — the highest, the lowest and the in-betweens — are all सॊम्यासः or fond of the Soma drink!
 
You are totally wrong. jAti was by birth and varNa was by occupation. jAtis themselves moved up and down the hierarchy of varNa ladder.
Do you mean to say that there was a jati brahmana and a varna brahmana at any point of time? Was there a mechanism that was used to distinguish this? And how was it followed and, if abandoned, when and why?

A raThakAra, a chariot maker was a high status person during rg vedic times and in fact hymns were composed in his honour, example RV 1.6.32. In rAjasUya fire sacrifices, he was the PRINCIPAL RECEPIENT of the offerings. By contrast, during mahABhAratjA times, the particular varna had moved down the scale considerably.

I have a book where the following quote from the shanthi parva of Mahabharatha where Bharadwaj rishi is said to ask as follows:

Svedamoothra pureeshaani shleshma pittam sadhonitam.
Tanuh ksharati sarvedham kasmaad varno vibhajyate.

The meaning given as follows: But every human body bleeds, defecates, sweats, and has phlegm and life, alike. How can the human beings then be divided into varna of different colours?

Kamah krodho bhayam lobhah shokashchinta kshudha shramah.
sarvedham nah prabhavati kasmaad varno vibhidhyate.

Desire, anger, fear, greed, sorrow, anxiety, and hunger affect all human beings alike. How can there be then this difference of varna at all?

Contrary to popular perception and much cyber notes in internet, a Shudra was entitled to be a "yajamanan" for a fire sacrifice. He cannot perform the sacrifice himself but he sure could get it performed.

It is in no way different from the present day practice, where a BRAHMIN cant go to a temple to perform the pUjA himself, no matter how eligible and better qualified he is than the pUjari, but has to get the pUja or archanai performed by the pUjari. But it is not kosher to call this present day practice as "exploitation" nor is it politically expedient or correct to do so.

The yaksha asks yudhishtra:

Rajan kulena vrttena svaadhyaayena shrutena vaa.
Brahmanyam kena bhavati prabroohyotat sunishchatam.

Finally, profession, studies in scriptures, and philosophy of these, which determines brahminhood? Tell me definitely?

Yudhishtra replies:

shrunu yaksha kulam taata na svaadhyaayo na cha shrutam.
Kaaranam hi dvijatve cha vrttmeva na samshayaha.

Brahmanahood is determined by conduct and not by family, nor by studies, nor by listening to scriptures - of this there is no doubt.

We rarely see this followed. And this possibly must have been a shift in thinking of that period. Even as yudhishtra says this, we see contradictory examples followed in his period.

I think "brahminhood" must have been very much the subject of debate from times of yore, such as we are doing even now. It is not clearly established as to who is a brahmin, but going by practice, it is by birth alone.
 
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Auh,

Other members correct me if I am wrong. Brahmins are supposed to have descended from rishis who were epitome of spiritual development.
Purushasuktam says that everybody descended or sprung from "purusha". What do you think of this?
 
I agree that a Shudra could get a yaaga performed; in fact Mahabharata, Shanti Parva says that according to Bheeshma's advice to Dharmaputra, a Shudra could not amass or (collect or save) any moneys except for getting yaagas performed.

But I am not sure whether this financier Shudra was allowed to enter the Yaagasaala. So, the Shudra could not have been a Yajamaana, I think. Even the mighty Kshatriya Kings and Ekacchatraadhipathis were given a seat lower than the Brahmin priests and other Brahmin visitors to the yaagas, I have read.

I like the new phrase you coined - financier Shudra :)
 
Purushasuktam says that everybody descended or sprung from "purusha". What do you think of this?

Yes everyone goes through evolution. But some are more spiritually developed than others at any point in time. Brahmins make up just 5% of our population but I believe that a sizeable majority may be 50% have natural spiritual inclinations. I believe in India the figure would actually be 70-75% and probably the lowest in the U.S with 20-25%
 
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I think "brahminhood" must have been very much the subject of debate from times of yore, such as we are doing even now. It is not clearly establish as to who is a brahmin, but going by practice, it is by birth alone.

Very precisely. It has always been a subject of debate. And there have been "creative interpretations" too.

For example, many brAhmins took up the job of "teachers" with the explanation that "teaching" is a prescribed avocation, but ignoring another edict that he should not be an employee.

Similarly, many got into the government jobs treating it to be in the employment of "king" but turning a blind eye to the fact that the "king" was a videshi (initially during British rule) and later elected Government representatives who were not kshatriyas in all the cases.

They joined banking jobs enmasse though money-lending and borrowing was basically a vysya profession.

It has been on the basis of birth alone at least in the last 100 years or so.
 
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