I C and I R weddings!

[S Narayanaswamy Iyer]

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Smt. Raji Ram writes:-

"She (her great-grandmother) has also told us that, for serving buttermilk to servants, they had a long channel made by cutting a long bamboo lengthwise, which ran from the kitchen window to outside! And....... the buttermilk has to be poured with breaks, since the servant would be drinking it with his hands!"

With respect, Smt. RR has probably misheard, mis-remembered, and misunderstood. The truth is this:

In the venakkaalam, i.e. hot season, my family's long practice has been to cater to the thirst of all vazhuppokkan, i.e. passers-by and casual travellers, who walk past in front of our mud-walled, clay-floored, thatch-roofed windowless village house. Because of their sweaty bodies, dusty feet and probably horsedung- or cowdung-stained footwear, they do not wish to wash their feet and enter our house.

In any event, they are in a hurry and have no time or mood for cbit-chat. They just want to slake their thirst, and hurry on. Their bellies bless us, not their mouths.

So, we erect a bamboo pandal in front of our house, and a bamboo bench to sit on at road level. We split a thick bamboo lengthwise into two halves and remove the internal burrs and nodes to give a clean through-passage for liquids.

In one channel, we pour cold sambaaram (diluted sour churned cow-milk curd flavoured with crushed curry-leaves, crushed fresh ginger, chopped fresh coriander leaves, salt, and crushed green chilli). In the other we pour clean cool drinking well-water stored earlier in earthenware chatties suspended from the rafters.

There will be a gong with wooden gavel or a brass hand-bell on the bamboo bench at road-level or suspended within the bamboo pandal for the passer-by to sound or ring to attract our attention if we are not already on the front thinnai waiting for visitors to the pandal.

In the bamboo pandal there will also be a large covered water-filled kumbham with a little tumbler for folk to wash their sweaty and dusty hands (and faces and sometimes even heads) before partaking of the drinks freely and copiously offered (and washing their hands afterwards).

It should be noted ALL of us family members, and not only servants, eat with our hands, drink from our hands.

Village children often are our guests, and they are most welcome to drink as much as they can, with their friends.

Such a pity that Veterans should try to sully the charitable acts of senior Brahmins in their homes during the hot season towards thirsty travellers as a detestable anti-servant "apartheid" practice.

(If you have nothing good to say about your dead and cremated ancestors, or are ashamed of them, of what they do and of their values, please keep the peace and do not advertise on the Internet.)

Thanks.

S NarayanaswamyIyer

 

[S Narayanaswamy Iyer]

Who ever puts urine on a Tulsi plant. -- Doctor Renuka, Veteran

Dalits do. Naicker's followers did. Brahmin-bashers do. Chinese farmers in Malaysia and in Singapore do, mixed with swine-urine from their pigsties. They carry two huge metal spray-cans of the stinky cocktail on their "kaanda"-bamboo-sticks across their shoulder and manure their farms daily.

I've seen them at it. Often.

S Narayanaswamy Iyer

 

[prasad1]

Mr. Iyer you are mentioning a name that is banned.

You have valid points in your post but you break every forum rules and practice.

In your post#601 you take two practice one a charitable one and other caste discrimination and come to unpalatable conclusion.

The practice of charity:

There will be a gong with wooden gavel or a brass hand-bell on the bamboo bench at road-level or suspended within the bamboo pandal for the passer-by to sound or ring to attract our attention if we are not already on the front thinnai waiting for visitors to the pandal.

In the bamboo pandal there will also be a large covered water-filled kumbham with a little tumbler for folk to wash their sweaty and dusty hands (and faces and sometimes even heads) before partaking of the drinks freely and copiously offered (and washing their hands afterwards).

The practice of discrimination:

Of pouring "buttermilk" through a bamboo channel, because you do not want them to enter the house.
The open display of caste discrimination which was similar to apartheid is abhorrent. Your justification that "they" were dirty and did not have time for chit-chat is laughable at best. Have you or your ancestors ever tried to invite them inside and shared a meal. Please respect other members of this forum (specially Rajiji), they were "not born yesterday".

 

[renuka]

Who ever puts urine on a Tulsi plant. -- Doctor Renuka, Veteran

Dalits do. E V R Naicker's followers did. Brahmin-bashers do. Chinese farmers in Malaysia and in Singapore do, mixed with swine-urine from their pigsties. They carry two huge metal spray-cans of the stinky cocktail on their "kaanda"-bamboo-sticks across their shoulder and manure their farms daily.

I've seen them at it. Often.

S Narayanaswamy Iyer

As far as I know Hindus do not do this.
Every Hindu..Dalit or Brahmin or anything else in between knows a Tulsi is a holy plant.

But come to think of it you too did defile the Tulsi plant in your post...an imaginary situation still leaves cerebral imprints.

 

[S Narayanaswamy Iyer]

Dear Sri Prasad1

Many thanks for your pointed response. I have the highest respect for all members of the forum, male or female, but am compelled to disclose the truth now and then, e.g. when the untruth is unduly provocative.

May I beg you kindly not to jump prematurely to wrong conclusions?

Our village is inhabited EXCLUSIVELY by Brahmins. It is an AGRAHAARAM of the classic variety. The PASSERS-BY are mostly Brahmins. Why do you apparently assume all who come to drink the sambaaram (neer-moru to Tamils) and cool well-water are non-Brahmins?

Your assumption "because you do not want them to enter the house." is, sorry to say, false.

You give no weight to my assertion that sounding the gong or bell is only to attract our attention if we are not already on the front thinnai waiting for visitors to the pandal.

Kindly read together what I wrote:-

Because of their sweaty bodies, dusty feet and probably horsedung- or cowdung-stained footwear, they do not wish to wash their feet and enter our house.

In any event, they are in a hurry and have no time or mood for cbit-chat. They just want to slake their thirst, and hurry on. Their bellies bless us, not their mouths.

Are you, Sir, seriously saying that fellow-Brahmins do not sweat on a hot day after walking for some distance with loads of purchases to carry home? Do not step on horse-dung or cow-dung on the village paths and lanes? Do not have dusty feet? Do not get thirsty on a hot day? That all these are exclusive to non-Brahmins?

You ask a forthright question -- Have you or your ancestors ever tried to invite them inside and shared a meal.

My equally forthright answer is -- Yes, VERY frequently. That is our normal family custom. That is why we are practising Brahmins, serving our athithi before sitting for our own meal.

Again, why do you seem to presume that somehow or other, any neutral charitable act of Brahmins is nothing but "The open display of caste discrimination which was similar to apartheid is abhorrent."

"You break every forum rules and practice." -- God forbid! I have no intention whatsoever in breaking even a single forum rule or practice. Please accept my full and sincerest apologies if I inadvertently have.

Namaskaaram.

S Narayanaswamy Iyer

 

[Falcon]

Dear Sri Prasad1


"You break every forum rules and practice." -- God forbid! I have no intention whatsoever in breaking even a single forum rule or practice. Please accept my full and sincerest apologies if I inadvertently have.

Namaskaaram.

S Narayanaswamy Iyer

Sri Iyer Ji,

IHMO you have not broken any rules and practice of the Forum.

There is no privileged member here. Everyone is a guest and needs to be treated equally.

As such, those who have born yesterday and not born day before yesterday question does not arise.

It is a public Forum and when one enter's into this Forum, the Forum ethics and manners apply to all.

In fact it is the seniors who are supposed to set an example to juniors.

In this Forum, I had myself reported against certain postings of seniors/Veterans, etc and they have been promptly deleted by the Moderator.

What does this mean...it does mean that even veterans do cross the Lakshman Rekha...

Here. every member is a quest and everyone has freedom of expression and that way no one can bully the other.

So keep writing your mind .....

And there is Moderator to take care...

 

[Raji Ram]

Dear Iyer Sir,

I remember correctly what my great grandma told me and my siblings. She lived in Burma and was very orthodox. Till her daily

morning poojA was over, she would not admit anyone in the house to touch her. If touched, she will have a head bath. You have

NOT seen her and so you don't know anything about her. And....... The bamboo story is very true.

Her life was very bitter. She has gone through all the miseries that the brahmins could give to a widow (at the age of 18 - the

tender age, when girls are pampered now a days!). She was referred to as ' - pAtti' (I don't wish to write the abusive prefix )

by mAmAs, who were more than two decades older to her! Because she was very brave, she could manage to continue her life

and bring up her grand children, who lost their mother when the eldest one was 9 years old. Truth is bitter, most of the times.

P.S: Yes! We DO eat with right hands but drink only from a cup or tumbler!!

 

[Raji Ram]

Shall join forum after a short break!

 

[Vaagmi]

There are three types of people who come here.

1. Brahmins who understand the meaning of the mantras and the philosophy of Hinduism and the knowledge contained in vedas. They follow the rules laid down in the shastras to the extent possible in the current times and circumstances. To the extent possible-- because there are several constraints imposed by the modern times. They are happy that they compin shastras and liove their life peacefully. Importantly they understand that castes are not about superiority and inferiority. But about performing duties and living in a society and making it efficient. That is what a civilization is all about. These people come here and participate in the discussions actively.

2. There are those who do not understand mantras, rituals, philosophy and hinduism. They think mantras are mumbo jumbo. Rituals are a pain and meaningless. And philosophy invariably happens to be beyond their equipment to understand. They live a licencious life eating all sorts of food, drinking liquour, and having lose morals. Many of them have picked up these lose values from their parents who themselves had no idea of discipline in life. These people too live happily because of the money and wealth they have accumulated. They come here to deride the first category frequently. They recommend licenceous living, IC/IR marriages, freewheeling moral life and question every religion and its belief system with whatever equipment they have.

These people have one remarkable trait. They do not really believe in whatever they preach. Get close and scratch them you will find all kinds of insecurities coming out tumbling. For instance they strongly recommend IC/IR marriages. But they will never actively promote the idea of IC/IR marriages among their children and relatives. They will never tell their children, grand children, nephews and nieces about the great advantages that are there in IC/IR marriages, or about the meaninglessness of the castes as practised by brahmins, or about the need to do amends for the so called atrocities committed by their forefathers on the NB castes. It is like they want to have the cake and eat it too. They are charlatans who can only preach but not practice.

They will never pull up their children for having chosen a life partner from within the brahmin caste.

These people too come here and participate in the discussions actively and in their overenthusiasm call the first category names.

3. There are fence sitters who are neither here nor there. Dependiong on which side the wind is blowing they will lean. They are invariably confused. They will come in once in while from their slumber, clap their hands applauding this or that post, add a thumbs up or down and return back to their slumber.

And the discussions here meander through.

An individual should carefully draw his own conclusions using the equipment he has been endowed with.

 

[krish44]

I was reading an article where the author says among the hindus , brahmins are the maximum casteist { about 52%}

If any brahmin is asked directly whether he is casteist , he will promptly deny it.

But if investigated, it will be found that there is caste in between the bathroom and the kitchen.

They will say a NB caste cleans bathroom and it is unhygienic for her to enter the kitchen.

Yet a brahmin women who uses the bathroom can enter the kitchen .

If she can use soap to clean her hands after using the bathroom and use the kitchen why not the NB do the same?.

This exactly is casteism.

That is brahmin use the hygiene card to deny access to the NB into her kitchen.

Casteism and untouchability is rampant in brahmin homes.

Thats the bitter truth.

 

[Vaagmi]

I was reading an article where the author says among the hindus , brahmins are the maximum casteist { about 52%}

If any brahmin is asked directly whether he is casteist , he will promptly deny it.

But if investigated, it will be found that there is caste in between the bathroom and the kitchen.

They will say a NB caste cleans bathroom and it is unhygienic for her to enter the kitchen.

Yet a brahmin women who uses the bathroom can enter the kitchen .

If she can use soap to clean her hands after using the bathroom and use the kitchen why not the NB do the same?.

This exactly is casteism.

That is brahmin use the hygiene card to deny access to the NB into her kitchen.

Casteism and untouchability is rampant in brahmin homes.

Thats the bitter truth.

Krishji a few questions to you. Some of these are already addressed to you and remains unanswered.

1. As you teach values to your children and grand children do you include this samadarshina in your list? Let me make it more clear. Have you ever told your children (who must be married and having children now) about the meaninglessness of castes and the greatness of IC/IR marriages? Have you ever encouraged your sons and daughters to pick a partner only from the scheduled castes or tribes because they are the most suppressed? And did they listen to you and married a SC/ST girl/boy? If they did not, did you consider it as your failure in teaching them proper values? Did you consider it as disobedience on the part of your children or disrespect shown to you?Ok, leaving aside the children, are you actively promoting this idea of IC/IR marriages among your grand children now as they must be reaching their adolescent ages? Have you ever insisted with them they should give first preference to only SC/ST partners, ofcourse subject other qualifications being fulfilled by frequent dating? Have you talked to your nephews and nieces about the advantages and the necessity of IC/IR marriages and told them that they should actively consider these marriages as they are the ideal ones? Have you ever thought that you should actively facilitate such marriages in the case of your sons, daughters, grand children relatives etc.,?

If you have not done these then you are a manipulator who comes here to only preach what you are scared of practising. Sorry if I sound strident. Some bitter truths sound that way. Cant help.

 

[renuka]

Dear Iyer Sir,

I remember correctly what my great grandma told me and my siblings. She lived in Burma and was very orthodox. Till her daily

morning poojA was over, she would not admit anyone in the house to touch her. If touched, she will have a head bath. You have

NOT seen her and so you don't know anything about her. And....... The bamboo story is very true.

Her life was very bitter. She has gone through all the miseries that the brahmins could give to a widow (at the age of 18 - the

tender age, when girls are pampered now a days!). She was referred to as ' - pAtti' (I don't wish to write the abusive prefix )

by mAmAs, who were more than two decades older to her! Because she was very brave, she could manage to continue her life

and bring up her grand children, who lost their mother when the eldest one was 9 years old. Truth is bitter, most of the times.

P.S: Yes! We DO eat with right hands but drink only from a cup or tumbler!!

Dear RR ji,

It makes perfect sense that you surely know about your own family situation better than anyone else who has no Locus Standi whatsoever.

 

[renuka]

Logically anyone who does not practice casteism would welcome a match from any caste be it Brahmin or Non Brahmin.

He/she need not shun his/her own caste in that process.

This is just simple logic.

 

[Falcon]

I was reading an article where the author says among the hindus , brahmins are the maximum casteist { about 52%}

If any brahmin is asked directly whether he is casteist , he will promptly deny it.

But if investigated, it will be found that there is caste in between the bathroom and the kitchen.

They will say a NB caste cleans bathroom and it is unhygienic for her to enter the kitchen.

Yet a brahmin women who uses the bathroom can enter the kitchen .

If she can use soap to clean her hands after using the bathroom and use the kitchen why not the NB do the same?.

This exactly is casteism.

That is brahmin use the hygiene card to deny access to the NB into her kitchen.

Casteism and untouchability is rampant in brahmin homes.

Thats the bitter truth.

There are about fifty Sublabh Shauchalyas (Public Toilets) in Delhi and who are the people who clean these public toilets daily…. It is none else than Brahmins….it is Brahmins who are cleaning these toilets and taking care of the maintenance…

They are cleaning the public toilets which are used by other caste people..

And now where is casteism…?

And the additional information is the very public Institution was started by a Brahmin ..

And now where is casteism…?

This is the fact and especially people at Delhi cannot deny this…. As they experience the first hand information.

Besides, there is also number of Brahmins working as coolies at Delhi’s Railway Station.

They lift and carry the luggages of all castes…

And now where is casteism...?

This is the bitter truth.

 

[prasad1]

Mr. Iyer,
No amount of so-called "reasoning" is going to justify Caste discrimination of yesterday, today, or tomorrow.
Even a support from a learned member is not going to make a grave injustice a right thing.

My ancestors were Iyers.
I know the stories and have seen caste discrimination perpetuated. I have seen the pain in the eyes of those people who have been wronged.

You are right I did assume that the passerby was an NB usually, a brahmin is not passing by without being invited inside the house. So maybe I was wrong in that assumption.

You can not tell me that Caste discrimination was not common some 50-60 years ago. I am out of the country for last 50 years.

In the bamboo pandal there will also be a large covered water-filled kumbham with a little tumbler for folk to wash their sweaty and dusty hands (and faces and sometimes even heads) before partaking of the drinks freely and copiously offered (and washing their hands afterwards).

I have drunk water that way a number of times but it was for common folks, no caste barriers there.

I also know the 2-tumblar system.


I have seen this act of charity being performed by Jains. I have never known a Brahmin family doing it.
Similarly, I have stayed in Jain Dharamshalas, have never seen a Brahmin doing similar work.

"You break every forum rules and practice." -- God forbid! I have no intention whatsoever in breaking even a single forum rule or practice. Please accept my full and sincerest apologies if I inadvertently have.

So please read up on the rules and regulation of the forum.

Again welcome to the forum.

The moderator makes an exception for one member (?) but please do not follow his example.

 

[krish44]

Krishji a few questions to you. Some of these are already addressed to you and remains unanswered.

1. As you teach values to your children and grand children do you include this samadarshina in your list? Let me make it more clear. Have you ever told your children (who must be married and having children now) about the meaninglessness of castes and the greatness of IC/IR marriages? Have you ever encouraged your sons and daughters to pick a partner only from the scheduled castes or tribes because they are the most suppressed? And did they listen to you and married a SC/ST girl/boy? If they did not, did you consider it as your failure in teaching them proper values? Did you consider it as disobedience on the part of your children or disrespect shown to you?Ok, leaving aside the children, are you actively promoting this idea of IC/IR marriages among your grand children now as they must be reaching their adolescent ages? Have you ever insisted with them they should give first preference to only SC/ST partners, ofcourse subject other qualifications being fulfilled by frequent dating? Have you talked to your nephews and nieces about the advantages and the necessity of IC/IR marriages and told them that they should actively consider these marriages as they are the ideal ones? Have you ever thought that you should actively facilitate such marriages in the case of your sons, daughters, grand children relatives etc.,?

If you have not done these then you are a manipulator who comes here to only preach what you are scared of practising. Sorry if I sound strident. Some bitter truths sound that way. Cant help.

A great outburst as is to be expected from vaagmiji.

Those days are gone when children married young and parents decided.

Now children are educated and adults in twenties and some cross thirty before considering matrimony.

They prefer to choose their own mates.

My children got the freedom to choose. The persons they chose happened to be brahmins though not of vaishnavite variety.

I do not believe in indoctrinating anyone with my views on casteism.

But when some in extended family chose persons of other religion and caste I kept absolutely quiet though I knew their intention earlier and could have acted.

I did not intervene as I believed that the persons had the right of choice.

The marriages I settle -if Someone trusts me with that,Caste is just one more parameter. I would place age, edu and professional qualifications,location above caste

matching.I would choose a different caste if I do not get someone from my own if he/she meets my requirement of vegetarianism[food habits], language familiarity[

Hindi and tamil].

I hope it answers you fully

 

[Falcon]

Just sharing a message received through face book which is more relevant to the current discussion......

ஒடுக்குங்கள் பிராமணனை.

இன்னும் நிறைய ஒடுக்குங்கள். அவன் மென்மேலும் முன்னேற*
கத்தியைக் கண்டால் ஒதுங்குபவன், தன் பெண்ணை பிற சாதியன்
காதலித்துக் கல்யாணம் செய்தால் மறுதலிக்க முடியாமல் சில காலத்திற்குப் பின் ஏற்றுக் கொள்பவன்,

தான் உண்டு தன் வேலை உண்டு என்று இருப்பவன்,

எல்லாருக்கும் ஒரு விதத்தில் அரசாங்க ஆதரவும் பட்டியல் உரிமையும் இருக்க, இவனுக்கு மட்டும் ஒன்றுமில்லை.

இருக்கும் ஒரு சதவீத வெளிப்படை போட்டியில் ஆயிரத்திற்கு ஆயிரம் மதிப்பெண் வாங்கி போட்டியிட வேண்டும். கூட போட்டியிடுபவன்

அறிவிலும் குறைவு, மதிப்பெண்ணிலும் குறைவு; ஆனால் அரசாங்கம் தட்டிக்கொடுத்து பட்டியலில் சாதிப் பெயரிட்டு கூப்பிட்டுக் கொடுக்கிறது வேலையை. கேட்டால் ஒதுக்கப் பட்ட இனமாம்,

பிராமணன் ஆதிக்க சக்தியாம்.

சுதந்திரம் வாங்க மட்டும் புரட்சிக் கவி பாடவும், கொடுங்கோல் கலெக்டர்ஆஷ் துரையைக் கொல்லவும், ஜெயிலுக்குப் போகவும் பார்ப்பனன் வேண்டும். ஆனால் வேலையில் இட ஒதுக்கீடு மட்டும் இல்லை, ஏனென்றால் எல்லா பார்ப்பனனும் பணக்காரன் பாருங்கள்? என்னய்யா கண்டு பிடித்தீர்கள் பிராமணனிடம் குற்றம்? அவன் சுத்தமாக இருக்கச் சொல்வது உங்களுக்குப் பிடிக்கவில்லை. நீ சுத்தமில்லாமல் தொட்டதை அவன் தொட மறுக்கிறான். ஏன் இதை அவன் மட்டுமா செய்கிறான்? கிருத்துவ பிஷப்பும் செய்கிறார், மசூதியில் முல்லாவும் செய்கிறார். உயர்ஜாதி பிராமணனல்லாத இந்துவும் செய்கிறான். ஆனால் ஏன் பார்ப்பனன் மட்டும் சாதி வெறியன்? மற்றவன் இல்லையா? சாதியின் பெயராலேயே அரசியல் நடத்தி வரும் அத்தனை பேரும் பார்ப்பனனை விட எந்த விதத்தில் உயர்ந்தவர்கள்?

உடையாருக்கு ஒரு கட்சி, முதலியாருக்கு சமூக நீதிக் கட்சி, வன்னியருக்கு ஒரு பாமக, வெள்ளாளருக்கு ஒரு கொமுக, நாயுடுக்களுக்கு ஒரு மதிமுக, தேவருக்கு ஒரு பார்வார்ட் ப்ளாக், தேவேந்திர குல வெள்ளாளருக்கு ஒரு கட்சி, அருந்ததியருக்கு ஒரு கட்சி, தலித்துகளுக்கு ஆயிரம் கட்சிகள். எங்கே ஒரு கட்சியின் பெயரை சொல்லுங்கள் பிராமணனுக்கு?

பிராமணன் அப்பாவி. அடித்தால் அடியை பொறுத்துக் கொண்டு குறை சொல்லாமல் வீட்டு தாழ் இட்டு வாழ்ந்து கொள்பவன். அவனை ஆதிக்க சக்தி என்று பொய் கூறி உரமிட்டு வளர்த்த பெருமையெல்லாம் திராவிடர் கழகத்திற்கும், இனத்துரோகி கருணா நிதியையுமே சாரும். அறிவு சார் வர்க்கங்கள் பிராமணன் உனக்கு என்ன துரோகம் செய்தான் என்று தயவு செய்து பட்டியல் இட்டுக் காட்டுங்கள். உங்கள் சோற்றில் மணணைவாரிப்் போட்டானா? இல்லை உங்கள் வீட்டுப் பெண்ணை கையைப்பிடித்து இழுத்தானா? இல்லை உங்கள் கறி, மீனில் பங்கு கேட்டானா?

இன்னமும் பிராமணத் துவேஷம் சொல்லி அரசியல் செய்யும் ஆங்கிலேய அடிவருடிப் பரம்பரையில் வந்த திராவிட இயக்கத்தின் அழியாக் கறை பேர்வழிகளுக்கு சொல்லிக் கொள்கிறேன். ஒவ்வொரு முறையும் பிராமணனுக்கு எதிராய் சொல்லப் படும் கருத்துக்களால் அவன் மென்மேலும் புடம் போடப்பட்டு வெளி நாட்டில் வேலை, மேல்படிப்பு, சொந்தத் தொழில் என்று வளம் சிறக்க வாழ்ந்து கொண்டு, உன்னைப் பார்த்து சிரிக்கிறான். நீ இன்னமும் அங்கேயே அதள பாதாளத்தில் நின்ற இடத்திலேயே நிற்கிறாய். அவன் மேலே போய்க் கொண்டே இருக்கிறான்.

இங்கே தலித்துகளும், தேவர்களும், முதலியார்களும், செட்டியார்களும், வன்னியர்களும், கவுண்டர்களும், நாயுடுக்களும் தங்களை அடையாளப் படுத்திக் கொண்டு இருக்கும் வரை, பிராம்மணனின், நீங்கள் சொல்லி வந்த ஆதிக்க உணர்வுகளைத் தூண்டி அவன் தன் சாதியையும் இனி கட்டிக் காக்கப் போகிறான்.

எங்கேனும் பிச்சை எடுக்கும் ஒரு பிராம்மணப் பெண்ணையோ இல்லை பூணுல் அணிந்த பிராமண பிச்சைக்காரனையோ பார்த்திருக்கிறீர்களா? அதுதான் பிராம்மணன்.
************************
(ஒரு தலித் எழுதியதை அப்படியே பகிர்கிறேன்.)#பாஸ்கர்ஏகாம்பரம்அவர்களுக்குநன்றி

Source: Brahmana Sangam / Brahmins Association / Face Book

 

[krish44]

Continuing further,

One does not think of marriage alone , there are so many issues where caste comes into play.

Like engaging cooks -brahmins opting only for brahmin cooks. I chose to employ someone in delhi who is a nadar{ I found out recently this} . She cook brahmin dishes after

training.She is clean and dresses far better than many brahmin girls. No one would even know her caste as she talks brahmin tamil due to study in tamil school in delhi

where brahmins are in majority. I had in chennai a mudaliyar lady immaculately dressed in good sarees neatly pressed and very clean. The plus point of having these

is you can get dishes which are specialities of their communities in addition to our own.

My tenants , I select based on their financial strength , not caste or religion.

I have a christian in chennai whose wife is living there. She maintains it better than what I would have done.They have never missed paying rent in time.It is the

financial return that matters not caste or religion when renting out flats.

Liberal thinking is a matter of beliefs.

I suppose it clarifies what I stand for

 

[krish44]

I was wondering when did the word "hinduism' really originate.

It seems to have started after only after 13th or 14 th centuries AD.or so

Our vedas or upanishads do not specifically use the term hindu.

All including those believing in vedas and later moderated by upanishads , those who got called theist got clubbed with rationalists like carvaka and others not believing

in vedas called nastiks under one omnibus label to take on religions like islam and christianity making inroads into india.Hindu meant only all those to the east of indus

river. Later ,indian culture with all its diversity and contradictions came to be called the hindu culture.

Some tied the nationalist movement and associated mother india with hindu name . Politics got mixed with religion.

It appears preposterous that atheists should share space with theists.

Atheists trying to be different are being attacked by theists and some have been eliminated.

Brahminism which many have tried to moderate thru upanishads raises up to face the opposition to impose its will.

The indian state is strong enough with its secular constitution to take on the narrow appeals of orthodox hindus.

It would be sensible to separate the indian culture from hindu culture to reduce the bad effects of the caste system and ensure equal oppurtunities for all.

 

[Vaagmi]

A great outburst as is to be expected from vaagmiji.

Those days are gone when children married young and parents decided.

Now children are educated and adults in twenties and some cross thirty before considering matrimony.

They prefer to choose their own mates.

My children got the freedom to choose. The persons they chose happened to be brahmins though not of vaishnavite variety.

I do not believe in indoctrinating anyone with my views on casteism.

But when some in extended family chose persons of other religion and caste I kept absolutely quiet though I knew their intention earlier and could have acted.

I did not intervene as I believed that the persons had the right of choice.

The marriages I settle -if Someone trusts me with that,Caste is just one more parameter. I would place age, edu and professional qualifications,location above caste

matching.I would choose a different caste if I do not get someone from my own if he/she meets my requirement of vegetarianism[food habits], language familiarity[

Hindi and tamil].

I hope it answers you fully

LOL. You think this was an outburst from me. LOL.

What a poor assessment of the person and the situation!!

I was not going to be poorer if I did not come with this outburst. My portfolio was not going to get severely devalued causing an unbearable loss to me because of my silence. So, dear friend, it was a normal reply to a friend here.

And as i expected, you have wriggled out of the spot with a vazha vazhaa kozha kozhaa reply which does not place you either here or there. Now the specifics:

Those days are gone when children married young and parents decided.

That is ok and I am not talking about that. I am speaking here about a more fundamental duty of the parent in you. You think your children should not eat beef because it is a value and a good one at that for you handed down by your family and accepted independently by you after evaluating it with your wisdom. Don't you pass on this wisdom to your children? I am sure you do that.

You see the way SC/STs are harassed, suppressed and hounded by others in the society and your heart goes out to them. You support them to the extent that you wont mind brahmins marrying their children to members of that community. In your wisdom and revolutionary fervour you would write again and again about the evil effects of casteism and recommend to the members here that IC/IR marriages are the solution/panacea for all ills in the society. All this because you have picked up this as a value in your value system using your wisdom.

My question to you was precise. Like other important values in your value system wont you like your children to pick up this value also from you. I am sure you would. And that requires your speaking to them about that value and actively prescribing/recommending it to your children as you are interested in their welfare and you want them to become good citizens of this society. So my question was whether you do that sincerely? If you do that it means you are sincere about your tears for the sufferings of the SC/STs and you would leave no stones unturned to mitigate that suffering. If you are reluctant to recommend that to your children, you are guilty of speaking with a forked tongue here.

The question is not about whether your children agree with you and obey you or not. It is about whether you are really sincere about it. I find from your reply that you have opened a convenient escape latch and jumped out.

They prefer to choose their own mates. My children got the freedom to choose. The persons they chose happened to be brahmins though not of vaishnavite variety.

Great indeed. They choose many other things too. They choose their academic discipline. They choose their dresses. etc., etc., But they also keep telling "my dad had a dream that I should become a Doctor/Engineer. I am happy I became one". I am speaking about that benign influence that a Dad has over his son/daughter. You had that chance to influence his/her thinking to choose a life partner from SC/ST community and you failed to influence deliberately because you could not escape from your own casteist impressions about the SC/STs. Now you are trying to wriggle out when asked point blank. LOL.

And you think your children marrying some iyer instead of an iyengar is a great concession made. LOL.

I do not believe in indoctrinating anyone with my views on casteism.

So when you tell your young grandson what is good and what is bad, it becomes indoctrination conveniently and you escape from a situation. LOL.

The marriages I settle -if Someone trusts me with that,Caste is just one more parameter. I would place age, edu and professional qualifications,location above caste

My question is why should it be a parameter at all? That is going by your enthusiastic promotion of IC/IR marriages and all the arguments you have managed to gather and present here.

I would choose a different caste if I do not get someone from my own if he/she meets my requirement of vegetarianism[food habits], language familiarity

Bold italics underlined words indicate a mindset which is peculiar when read with all your enthusiastic support recorded in this forum for IC/IR marriages. And that IF stands out boldly. You are answerable.

I hope it answers you fully

Not at all. You have not answered any of my questions sincerely. You have just wriggled out by speaking about the freedom of choice, indoctrination, and what not. Like more of a politician. Ask a politician what he has done to stop the suicide of large number of farmers. He answers, "it is not only farmers who have died: the figure quoted includes others also".

I certainly expect that you will one day answer my questions sincerely.

 

[krish44]

I do not know what you expect me to say.I can say what I do/have done and not anything else you want me to say..

2. I am not a crusader for any cause including SC/ST. Nor I force anyone to accept my diktat on choice of mate .I do not recommend to my children or anyone else the

caste of the person they need to marry.I respect and accept their choice. Thats all.

3.The mindset of choice is natural. Take someone with a caste you are familiar with or else take what you can get.Is it not the most normal to do .

4. Support for IC/IR is not for marriage alone. It is for all facets of living.Like some I do not see the caste of vegetable vendor instead of quality of vegetable before

accepting vegetable from him.

 

[Vaagmi]

Continuing further,
One does not think of marriage alone , there are so many issues where caste comes into play.
Like engaging cooks -brahmins opting only for brahmin cooks. I chose to employ someone in delhi who is a nadar{ I found out recently this} . She cook brahmin dishes after training.She is clean and dresses far better than many brahmin girls. No one would even know her caste as she talks brahmin tamil due to study in tamil school in delhi where brahmins are in majority. ................<clipped>................

Again you are going at a tangent.

An IC/IR marriage can in one fell stroke take away the bottom from all your caste issues.

When you have an SC/ST DIL at home, where is the question of engaging a brahmin cook exclusively? Even a Nadar is supposed to be higher up in the caste totem pole.

Actively canvass for a SC/ST spouse with your grand children so that these problems just vanish. But that needs sincerety and conviction.

Liberal thinking is a matter of beliefs.

You may pat yourself for it but it is not truly the so called "liberal" thinking. There is nothing liberal there.

I suppose it clarifies what I stand for

It clarifies. But the picture that emerges is disturbing.

 

[Janaki Jambunathan]

Like some I do not see the caste of vegetable vendor instead of quality of vegetable before

accepting vegetable from him.(#618)

The vegetable caste divide - Brahmin consumes but never produce and trade - Vysya consumes and trade never produce Sudra produce but don't consume & trade - caste is like Narayana - seen everywhere - even in vegetable Don't shake the pillars of Varnasram !

 

[krish44]

Pillars here are developing cracks.

We require pidilite to hold it together

 

[prasad1]

I think this caste issues will not be solved in India.
This thread has served its purpose.