I C and I R weddings!

[krish44]

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The kind of caste polarisation which has taken place has lead to only marginalisation of brahmins and their getting pushed further to the periphery. -- Krish44 Veteran.

Perhaps someone should tell our Veteran Brahmin-basher that some form or other of his hated "casteism" exists everywhere outside the Hindu way of life.

Among the Semitic peoples, for example.

The descendants of the daughters of Prophet Mohamed, founder of Islam (he had no sons though it is said he had 15 wives, the youngest Aisha he married when she was six and he was 53, and one of his wives Zainab bint Jahsh was his ex-daughter-in-law, i.e. adopted son's divorced wife), are known as Sayyid (males) and Shareefa (females). They can only marry among themselves, even if this is termed incest by unknowing outsiders. An ordinary Muslim may not marry a Sayyid or a Shareefa. And ditto vice versa. Casteism glorified by Allah?

If you study the Torah and the Bible carefully, you will find that only certain tribes can inter-marry: others cannot. Casteism glorified by Jehovah?

Today's Christians have shattered and scattered into hundreds of cults, sub-cult, and sub-sub cults. When I was Advisory Board member and legal advisor to the Salvation Army, the local Commander told me that the Army's father was the Methodist Church, whose father was the Anglican Church, whose father was the Catholic Church. When I said he should further trace back from the Catholic Church to the Orthodox Churches, and thence to the Jewish tribes, and finally to the Atharvana Vedam of the Hindus, he merely laughed in embarrassment. His religious education did not extend that far.

But the fact is, Christian sub-cults rarely if ever inter-marry. Each accuse the other of schism. Casteism under Christ?

Though belonging to the same "Book", do Jews and Muslims marry? Do Christians and Muslims? Do even Jews and Christians? Biblical casteism?

What about the multifarious tribes in Africa? Voodoo casteism?

Why take pleasure in continuing to beat the dead horse of Hindu casteism?

Why use Brahmins as your whipping-boy? Self-flagellation? Narcissism in reverse?

How many Thevars, Chettiars, Mudalaaliars will marry Dalits? How many Nairs, Menons, Reddis?

S Naryanaswamy Iyer

Except brahmins and dalits who are at extreme ends of caste spectrum has any other community been marginalised.

To rationalise that in other religions also a kind of caste ism exists is no argument to preserve and promote the status quo.

When changes are taking place to alter the status quo thru social campaigns and new laws getting enacted, We should be on the side of change .if it leads to social

good.

No sense feeling that community is being whipped.

 

[S Narayanaswamy Iyer]

We should be on the side of change .if it leads to social good. -- Krish44 Veteran.

Really?

And when it actually leads, not to "social good" at all but to specific discrimination against the weakest in the social system since Independence -- in land ownership, in education, in jobs, in economics, in politics, in business, in social well-being?

When it really leads only to creation of a new "creamy" social layer consisting of those politically shrewd or well-connected with the ruling class who amass power into their own hands to oppress their fellow castemen and castewomen (and become the New Age brahmins, far far worse than than former caste Brahmins whom they joyously replace)?

S Narsayanaswamy Iyer

 

[krish44]

Changes are inevitable.

Those who are piloting the change are representatives of people whom we have elected and reflect the will of the people..

They are bringing changes through legislation if faulty could be challenged in courts.

What could be fairer than that?

When a new order replaces the old, the old might feel aggrieved at the loss of privilege.

Of course there is also the possibility that a new class which might emerge as a result of change may not turn out better.

There are safeguards built to prevent this.

At least an attempt is being made to change what is necessarily an evil and has to go.

I appreciate your concern and thoughtful reply.

My thumbs up.

 

[krish44]

New generation that is coming up is looking for change.

The old rhetoric of Mandal, Masjid, Caste and religion discussions are repulsive now.

They are looking for gender equality , equal oppurtunities, meritocracy , freedom to choose vocation, life partners besides decent living and jobs.

Where and how do talks ,behaviour and actions of seniors relate to the needs and aspirations of the young?

They are restive and are fed up

Seniors are totally failing them.

They have nothing to offer except the same old rhetoric of mayam and mandiram relating to Gods .

They hide behind quotes from religious texts and vedas to cover their inadequacy to provide answers to the issues vitally affecting them.

I rest my case , your Honour.

 

[Raji Ram]

Dear Krish Sir,

I guess you can start a new Gurukulam and 'educate' the younger generation to create an all-free society!

The motto may be ''No caste; No God; No oldies'' (similar to Kadamai; GaNNiyam; KattuppAdu) ! :lol:

 

[Raji Ram]

​Guru Krish Maharaj ki - JAI!! :clap2:

 

[Falcon]

Dear Krish Sir,

I guess you can start a new Gurukulam and 'educate' the younger generation to create an all-free society!

The motto may be ''No caste; No God; No oldies'' (similar to Kadamai; GaNNiyam; KattuppAdu) ! :lol:

These are all nothing new...... It is there already...

Some may get reminded of Sahodaran Ayyappan, Narayana Guru, etc

Thiru Moolar who preached ஒன்றே குளம், ஒருவனே தேவன்

 

[renuka]

Dear Krish ji.

Many do not know which religious text to quote from..its all court room drama.

They have no Locus Standi for anything....they know that..thats why when cornered some try to escape on technical grounds.

Memorizing any text isnt too hard...understanding text is a total different matter all together.

Dont rest your case..appeal to a Higher Court.

 

[krish44]

Dear Krish Sir,

I guess you can start a new Gurukulam and 'educate' the younger generation to create an all-free society!

The motto may be ''No caste; No God; No oldies'' (similar to Kadamai; GaNNiyam; KattuppAdu) ! :lol:

Lol.

 

[CHANDRU1849]

New generation that is coming up is looking for change.

The old rhetoric of Mandal, Masjid, Caste and religion discussions are repulsive now.

They are looking for gender equality , equal oppurtunities, meritocracy , freedom to choose vocation, life partners besides decent living and jobs.

Where and how do talks ,behaviour and actions of seniors relate to the needs and aspirations of the young?

They are restive and are fed up

Seniors are totally failing them.

They have nothing to offer except the same old rhetoric of mayam and mandiram relating to Gods .

They hide behind quotes from religious texts and vedas to cover their inadequacy to provide answers to the issues vitally affecting them.

I rest my case , your Honour.

Your statement may have some relevance as far as Hindus are concerned. However, in the case of Abrahamic Religions, especially Islam, of late, one can see Muslims, both men and women, strictly follow their customs.

Don't generalise.

 

[Vaagmi]

They hide behind quotes from religious texts and vedas to cover their inadequacy to provide answers to the issues vitally affecting them.

Krishji,

Will you please list the issues?

And state how it all affect them?

We can discuss.

 

[a-TB]

Dear Krish ji.

Many do not know which religious text to quote from..its all court room drama.

They have no Locus Standi for anything....they know that..thats why when cornered some try to escape on technical grounds.

Memorizing any text isnt too hard...understanding text is a total different matter all together.

Dont rest your case..appeal to a Higher Court.

Higher court asks - is wrong understanding better than just memorizing without understanding ? LOL

 

[renuka]

Higher court asks - is wrong understanding better than just memorizing without understanding ? LOL

Verdict:

Both are the same.

Hence Asato Ma Jyothir Gamaya.

 

[a-TB]

Higher court asks - is wrong understanding better than just memorizing without understanding ? LOL

Who possibly can give a Thumbs down for my question? That must be a coward .. why not speak up here.

Memorization is better, it can be verified.

Understanding cannot be verified - there is no authority.

Some believe in Godmen who cures diseases, some think they have surrendered to God but is actually a rank hypocrite, some talk of spiritual power and wants to be godman, some just use buzz words to pretend like he knows citing obscure words as if we are going to be impressed- They all cite sacred texts as if it makes their point.

Overall, they are all a confused lot. Some more pretentious than other.

There are few here who are straight in their posts. Respects are due to such people even in disagreement.

 

[renuka]

Who possibly can give a Thumbs down for my question? That must be a coward .. why not speak up here.

Memorization is better, it can be verified.

Understanding cannot be verified - there is no authority.

Some believe in Godmen who cures diseases, some think they have surrendered to God but is actually a rank hypocrite, some talk of spiritual power and wants to be godman, some just use buzz words to pretend like he knows citing obscure words as if we are going to be impressed- They all cite sacred texts as if it makes their point.

Overall, they are all a confused lot. Some more pretentious than other.

There are few here who are straight in their posts. Respects are due to such people even in disagreement.

I did not give you the Thumbs Down.

Anyway..understanding is better than memorization.

Eg..Thumbs up and Thumbs down.

A Thumb is a Finger.

If we memorize that Up is a Positive Response and a Down is Negative Response... can we apply the same logic to a Middle Finger?


That's why understanding is most important.

 

[biswa]

Dear Krish Sir,

I guess you can start a new Gurukulam and 'educate' the younger generation to create an all-free society!

The motto may be ''No caste; No God; No oldies'' (similar to Kadamai; GaNNiyam; KattuppAdu) ! :lol:

RRji,

I am not clear why you think the caste issue is somehow related to God? Would you please explain?

 

[Raji Ram]

Who possibly can give a Thumbs down for my question? ..........

Not me either, dear Sir!

In fact, I give ONLY thumbs up and NO thumbs down, ever since I read my friend's post long ago!

 

[Raji Ram]

.......... I am not clear why you think the caste issue is somehow related to God? Would you please explain?

Dear Biswa Sir,

I did NOT connect caste and God. :nono:

Krish Sir hates caste difference, does not want to pray God and wants everyone to live 'full' life always!

Hence the three points for his neo Ashram: No caste; No God; No oldies!

By the way, I found some connection between this and 'Kadamai; GaNNiyam; KattuppAdu'.

Kadamai: It is one's kadamai not to differentiate castes. :grouphug:

GaNNiyam: No prostration before God because it will lower one's dignity! :becky:

KattupAdu: Actually it is 'NO kattuppAdu' because one should live as one likes!

 

[krish44]

In evolving societies hanging on to caste and religious practices and forcing children to follow them makes them unfit for modern living.

We are bound by a constitution which calls for non discrimination on basis of caste , religion , language.

I would like to stand for a more equal society in which humans treat each other with consideration,and there is gender equality and justice. All should get equal

oppurtunity and access to education, job and health care.

I do not know if God exists. If He did , I am sure He would not reject me for my values.I am agnostic if not a atheist.

Merely ritualism and thrusting them and forcing all to abide by them under threat of calamities befalling all those who do not follow them is no where specified in our

religion as far as I know. I do not know much though I confess.

We as humans have the right to be happy as long as our happiness does not hurt others.All humans have aspired for happiness but how many actually are?

 

[krish44]

I did not give you the Thumbs Down.

Anyway..understanding is better than memorization.

Eg..Thumbs up and Thumbs down.

A Thumb is a Finger.

If we memorize that Up is a Positive Response and a Down is Negative Response... can we apply the same logic to a Middle Finger?


That's why understanding is most important.

Many are bothered with thumbs up and thumbs down.

Some get mixed up and press the wrong button.

There is no need to be bothered about these signs.

Whenever I use the sign , I write below my up vote etc in next post

 

[Raji Ram]

My answers in blue:

1. In evolving societies hanging on to caste and religious practices and forcing children to follow them makes them unfit for modern living.

Please preach to high caste N Bs to mingle freely / get married to SC / ST. And....... let us know the result! :wacko:

2. We are bound by a constitution which calls for non discrimination on basis of caste , religion , language.

Supposed to! But has the practice of filling up religion and caste in ALL the applications stopped?

3. I would like to stand for a more equal society in which humans treat each other with consideration,and there is gender equality and justice. All should get equal

oppurtunity and access to education, job and health care.

:clap2: Please form a party, win the election and become the next PM of India!

4. I do not know if God exists. If He did , I am sure He would not reject me for my values.I am agnostic if not a atheist.

We know you, dear Krish Sir, from whatever you write in our dear forum!

5. Merely ritualism and thrusting them and forcing all to abide by them under threat of calamities befalling all those who do not follow them is no where specified in our

religion as far as I know. I do not know much though I confess.

Thanks for the confession!

6. We as humans have the right to be happy as long as our happiness does not hurt others.All humans have aspired for happiness but how many actually are?

Very true, Sir! But a guy who is 'eligible' to get AIDS, better NOT touch his wife anymore, if he wishes to save her life!!

 

[krish44]

RRji

My itemwise rejoinder

1.We brahmins and dalits are at extreme ends of the caste spectrum.Extremes get affected maximum when social changes for more equitable society takes place. We

aspire for our children better access to education and jobs in more liberal societies in the western world. We would like them to access these but not have liberal

lifestyle these society enable. How can this be possible?At best it can be a wish and nothing more.

2.Many times there can be contradictions between what we profess and what we do.Religion and caste get mentioned to avail govt benefits for educationally backward.

When disparities reduce, these might also change.

3. What I say may sound like political rhetoric.At personal level at least we can treat domestics from other castes we employ more humanely , pay well, do not throw

caste at them when they use kitchen space , rewash utencils they have washed to maintain our caste tradition , make them use different tumblers for having coffee.,

give them holidays for festivals they celebrate and we do not etc. How many advertise for brahmin cooks alone , even in this forum.?We definitely can make a

difference and work for a more equitable society even in a small way.

4. Good that I am able to get my message across. I must thank this forum for being tolerant and liberal enough.

5. There is no pride in confessing ignorance.It happens to be a fact. I have learnt a lot from you all.

6. Being happy does not mean living a promiscuous life alone. Living appreciating good food, travel to see more of the world, enjoying friendship with all manner of

people can be good living. All the time thinking of extremes due to exposure is a fear many have.Limiting oneself on that account and denying oneself , what does one

achieve?No one is going to worship them for that.

 

[Vaagmi]

Krishji,

My views:

1.We brahmins and dalits are at extreme ends of the caste spectrum.Extremes get affected maximum when social changes for more equitable society takes place. We aspire for our children better access to education and jobs in more liberal societies in the western world. We would like them to access these but not have liberal lifestyle these society enable. How can this be possible?At best it can be a wish and nothing more.

There is a lump of middle castes who are unable to get along with the brahmins at the higher end of the so called spectrum and the dalits at the lower end. And they get away with it too blaming brahmins for everything. Dont you realise this? What kind of liberal life style are you speaking about? If it is modern outlook about life, i think we are second to none in the world.

2.Many times there can be contradictions between what we profess and what we do.Religion and caste get mentioned to avail govt benefits for educationally backward.When disparities reduce, these might also change.

There is competition to get the castes included in the Backward list as standard of life improves. LOL. There are serious agitations involving burn ing of buses, trains and public property to get a caste included in the backward list. And the caste is not really backward. And you are saying these might also change.

3. What I say may sound like political rhetoric.At personal level at least we can treat domestics from other castes we employ more humanely , pay well, do not throw caste at them when they use kitchen space , rewash utencils they have washed to maintain our caste tradition , make them use different tumblers for having coffee., give them holidays for festivals they celebrate and we do not etc. How many advertise for brahmin cooks alone , even in this forum.?We definitely can make a difference and work for a more equitable society even in a small way.

a. Pay well -- Each job has a pay level depending on various factors like, sophistication of the job, qualification required, availability of a pool of resources to pick from etc., Pay levels generally settle down automatically depending on these factors. Even if you try to shortchange you wont either get people to work for you or you will get poor quality hands for the lesser pay you offer. It is a demand and supply situation.

b. Treatment: Brahmins treat their servants much more humanly than the other middle castes. Please make enquiries and you will know the truth.

c. Throwing caste:It appears you far removed from the present times. If you mention anything about the caste you will get dressing down from your servant these days. We do not know even which caste our servant maid belongs to. We just do not bother. You need to come hurrying to the present times and update your knowledge.

d. Rewashing is a standard practice followed errespective of who used it. That has more of hygiene attached to it than caste.

6. Being happy does not mean living a promiscuous life alone. Living appreciating good food, travel to see more of the world, enjoying friendship with all manner of people can be good living. All the time thinking of extremes due to exposure is a fear many have.Limiting oneself on that account and denying oneself , what does oneachieve?No one is going to worship them for that.

For a brahmin, promiscuity is anathema for very obvious reasons. Eating Tamasic food is not eating good food for them. Discipline involves keeping away from such loose values. Brahmins do not expect anyone to worship them for keeping away from universally recognized bad influences. They keep away because of self discipline. They just do not bother what others have to say about it. I recall this briefly:

This happened when I was living in Kottayam in Kerala. I had several friends who were rich planters owning cardamom and rubber plantations. They were Christians. We had a very old elite social club in the town in which we were members. On weekends and holidays we used to meet and spend time together. And many of them used to take liquour. I and just a few others were teetotallers. One day in a get together, some of my friends were insisting that I should join them in their drinking session. I was refusing. One of my friends, an Ouseph Achchan, said finally to his friends who were insisting on my drinking " Leave Vagmi alone. Do not press him hard. He is a brahmin. Brahmins have a tendency to go the frontiers in whatever they engage in. We will lose a friend. So stop this". And my friends dropped their pestering. He said this in the typical malayali slang.

It is a pity that while a Christian NB is aware of a Brahmin's unique qualities, a brahmin is not aware of it.

 

[Raji Ram]

Nice post, Vaagmi Sir! :thumb:

 

[renuka]

Krishji,

My views:



There is a lump of middle castes who are unable to get along with the brahmins at the higher end of the so called spectrum and the dalits at the lower end. And they get away with it too blaming brahmins for everything. Dont you realise this? What kind of liberal life style are you speaking about? If it is modern outlook about life, i think we are second to none in the world.



There is competition to get the castes included in the Backward list as standard of life improves. LOL. There are serious agitations involving burn ing of buses, trains and public property to get a caste included in the backward list. And the caste is not really backward. And you are saying these might also change.



a. Pay well -- Each job has a pay level depending on various factors like, sophistication of the job, qualification required, availability of a pool of resources to pick from etc., Pay levels generally settle down automatically depending on these factors. Even if you try to shortchange you wont either get people to work for you or you will get poor quality hands for the lesser pay you offer. It is a demand and supply situation.

b. Treatment: Brahmins treat their servants much more humanly than the other middle castes. Please make enquiries and you will know the truth.

c. Throwing caste:It appears you far removed from the present times. If you mention anything about the caste you will get dressing down from your servant these days. We do not know even which caste our servant maid belongs to. We just do not bother. You need to come hurrying to the present times and update your knowledge.

d. Rewashing is a standard practice followed errespective of who used it. That has more of hygiene attached to it than caste.





For a brahmin, promiscuity is anathema for very obvious reasons. Eating Tamasic food is not eating good food for them. Discipline involves keeping away from such loose values. Brahmins do not expect anyone to worship them for keeping away from universally recognized bad influences. They keep away because of self discipline. They just do not bother what others have to say about it. I recall this briefly:

This happened when I was living in Kottayam in Kerala. I had several friends who were rich planters owning cardamom and rubber plantations. They were Christians. We had a very old elite social club in the town in which we were members. On weekends and holidays we used to meet and spend time together. And many of them used to take liquour. I and just a few others were teetotallers. One day in a get together, some of my friends were insisting that I should join them in their drinking session. I was refusing. One of my friends, an Ouseph Achchan, said finally to his friends who were insisting on my drinking " Leave Vagmi alone. Do not press him hard. He is a brahmin. Brahmins have a tendency to go the frontiers in whatever they engage in. We will lose a friend. So stop this". And my friends dropped their pestering. He said this in the typical malayali slang.

It is a pity that while a Christian NB is aware of a Brahmin's unique qualities, a brahmin is not aware of it.

Dear Vaagmi ji...just a question.



Men and women have known to be promiscious regardless of community.

Even Valmiki Ramayan states Ahalya knew Indra was in disguise yet she gave in and felt flattered by him being interested in her.

Ravan was also a Brahmin..he had a harem.

Brahmins too were having a go or two with Devadasis in the past and so did other castes.



BTW even identical twins do not display 100% same behavior..so how can anyone say every Brahmin has to function or react in one uniform manner?

Even in forum where 99.9999% members are TBs..yet we have mindsets and outlook that differ.

So how can everyone be clones unless they want to project certain behavior so that no one will comment negatively on them.

Isnt that like trying to be like all the Devas who tried to resemble Nala to win the hand of Damayanti?

So in that case..who is real?
Is a particular behavior or reaction just a facade?

Its almost like being pressurized to fit into one mould.

Where is originality?

Where?
Where?