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If Out source jobs from U.S.stops what will be the fate of Indian I.T.Sector?

  • Thread starter Thread starter Ramacchandran
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to call bho as kenyan is nutty putting it mildly.a bi-racial birth is grey technically imho :).the republican party has become top heavy with reagan loyalist occupying plum jobs in party as well as in administartion of senior & junior bush.an oil man was lobbied and placed as president and he pleased his backers from saudi arabia and other oil producing nations lobbyists.saddam was dangerously messing with usa and finally was hunted like a rodent.job done,lets move on.the pipeline from afghanistan must be laid now,so that sunoco can start business as usual.come novemeber democrats shud win all seats otherwise,we are doomed as a nation again :(
 
Dear Professor Ji,

My comments are in 'blue' below:


Dear Shri KRS, Greetings!


The comments I have cited here, are from crazy land, no context can change comments like "second amendment remedies" and the ones by Newt Gingrich. The reason one is "exercised" about Newt's comments is he wants to be president and an equivalency is made between these guys and the left.
Professor, why are you lumping the 'second amendment remedies' comments by an irrational person (my opinion), with those of the reasoned comments by Newt, in citing Dinesh's article? His thoughts and arguments, seems to me, to be just as valid for discussion. If you do not agree with them, don't call names, write a thoughtful article that would refute their assertions and conclusions. It is a fact that Obama admired his father and his philosophy. Just to dismiss them as kookey ideas does not seem to be rational

Calling Bush a liar is something that can be argued, I happen to believe he did and so do millions of rational people, but only kooks think Obama was born in Kenya and the sad fact people like that are now populating the American right.
Again, you are inferring something that is not there either in Newt's comments or the article by Dinesh. Have you read them carefully? NEITHER OF THEM SAT THAT 'Obama was born in Kenya'. Because there are some people who believe that Obama was not born in USA, any mention of his Kenyan father triggers such attacks. I would request you to read both the article and Newt interview to exactly tell me where they question Obama's birth place.

BTW, Dinesh D'Souza is NOT a neutral source, he has a long track record of being a right-wing hack, right from his college days. Further, iIt is rather lame to suggest that Newt, the supposed intellectual heavyweight of the Republican party was just mimicking Dinesh.
I never said he was a 'neutral' source. I said that he is an accepted conservative academic. Sorry you don't like his philosophy/politics, but it seems to me you are calling him as a 'hack' is without merit. Please tell me how he is a 'hack' under the definition of 'hack'. Tell me where he has produced low quality writing?Again, Newt did not 'mimick' Dinesh - he has only said that his thesis is interesting, and by the way, I also think it is.

I have enough criticism for the Democratic party, even more so, since I expect more from them. But, as of the present time, they don't have any kooks and crazies at the top of their party. There is no equivalency between what you call extreme left and extreme right. Extreme right has gone to kookoo land.
Do I need to post here pictures of people carrying signs that wished for the death of Bush? Come on Professor, the 'not equal moral equivalency' you proclaim may be genuine from your own self (I think you are an idealist), but from where I stand, Both extremists are equal in their kookiness and madness. Just saying there is no 'moral equivalency' does not make it so.

So, tell me: Do you have any concrete proof to call Bush a liar? You know there is no proof. Yet the left keeps at it because of Bush's original sin: they think he stole an election. And so they hate him.


Cheers!

Regards,
KRS
 
Dear Shri KRS, Greetings!

why are you lumping the 'second amendment remedies' comments by an irrational person

[...]

Do I need to post here pictures of people carrying signs that wished for the death of Bush?
Please do, give me some links of these pictures, please.

But, you are missing my point. I am talking about the main stream and those who occupy high positions on the right, not the street level activists. On the Republican side, it is the presidential hopeful and Senate hopeful who are making these irrational statements.

I have no intention of wasting my time, or yours, arguing politics with you, no offense, it is a just a waste of time, both yours and mine. We are not going to agree. I am just trying to point out that the moral equivalency you are trying to draw between what you call "extreme" right and left is completely bogus. The kooky statements on the right are coming from senate and presidential hopefuls. Show me an equivalency of this on the left.

Cheers!
 
Dear Professor Nara Ji,

Yes, we have long ago established that our political philosophies are opposite and we are not going to change each other. But I am here posting, only to make folks think, who otherwise buy off on progressive ideology as the only valid philosophy. So, I persist. I am pointing out many gaps in your logic, but you do not answer. You have decided that what is worthy of discussion in the mainstream and what is not. Let me try again. Hope you will engage.

Why exactly what Newt said does not belong in a thoughtful discussion? You then called Dinesh as a 'hack' without hesitation. Why is he one? I am asking these questions, because in your opinion, both Newt and the 'hack' Dinesh have said something that should not be said by a mainstream politician. Tell me again, what they have said that is so offensive? You brought up the 'birther' issue. But when I asked you to show me where they said it, you have not shown me that. Newt obviously (for that matter, many folks like me) has been wondering why Obama acts in a way he does in office while during the campaign he acted as a moderate? This article attempts to explain Obama's psyche, with citations. Why would you consider this as not belonging to a general discussion about Obama?

On the other side: Yes, not only aspiring senators and Presidential hopefuls, but sitting senators as well as the majority leader and the speaker of the house have said that Bush lied, just to win an election, when they knew that the truth was otherwise. This is more egregious, in my opinion than what Newt is saying.

By the way, how do i know that there is no truth to what they were saying? Democrats came to power in 2006 and with the majority of Americans in poll at that time not opposing the impeachment of Bush IF he lied about Iraq, but you know what? But the Democrats did not even consider impeachment at that time as well as since when they had the Presidency and both houses Why? Because they knew that they could not prove it. Notice I just said that they could not prove it, not that he did not lie. He very well might have lied, but we do not know it to be the absolute truth. To me, the issue is not about Bush's veracity. It is about a responsible party saying things to win an election at the expense of America's prestige and interests around the world.

I am posting the following for your edification:
Death Threats Against Bush at Protests Ignored for Years · zomblog
TIME.com: What Makes the Bush-Haters So Mad?

Regards,
KRS
 
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Dear Shri KRS, Greetings!

.... I am pointing out many gaps in your logic, but you do not answer. You have decided that what is worthy of discussion in the mainstream and what is not. Let me try again. Hope you will engage.

After the initial spurts early on, we have been quite civil to each other and you have been fair to me personally, and I have noticed that and appreciate it very much. However, I find that in discussions you adopt a sort of double standard, i.e. one set of rules for you and another for others, at least in my case this is so. Here are a few examples of that.

  • You say you don't want to be drawn into labeling game, but you freely label others
  • You reject out of hand Paul Krugman, a Nobel prize laureate, but insist Dinesh D'Souza, a well known right-wing hack much like Ann Coulter, as an academic
  • The standard for seriousness or importance is rigged in your favor -- you admit Bush may have lied and hard to prove, yet you cite this as equal in serious to support for "second amendment remedies" (armed insurrection) and investigating elected members of Congress on suspicion of being Anti-American (witch-hunt)
This is the reason I hesitate to enter into a discussion with you.

I have watched and read Dinesh D'Souza for a long time now. IMO he is just a hack, high strung on conservatism, an epitome of an ideologue (yet you, an avowed anti-ideologue cite him -- see the double standard) incapable of calm reasonable discussion. Connecting Kenya and Obama in his hit-piece in Forbes is, to put it charitably, completely disingenuous. I don't like some of Obama's policies and all of his political calculations, but I can recognize a dirty-trick when I see one. Only a hack would do such a thing.

Cheers!
 
Dear Professor Nara Ji,
I am responding to you point by point below. However, let me broadly touch upon a few points here.

1) Yes, I think myself as an independent thinker. This means, I will support the ideas of anyone as long as it makes sense. This is why I avoid habitually reading opinion blogs/columns unless I am interested in a particular topic and I want to gather background data / opinion to formulate my own. In this, I do not follow any ideology - only common sense guides me.

2) I hope I have not 'labeled' you in a hurtful way. We had this discussion once before and when I used a particular phrase you objected and I apologized and withdrew the comment. I am a human being and as such prone to errors, but believe me - my guiding principle is not to hurt anyone else. Particularly, you. Because, to me, you are an embodiment of idealism and this is a rare quality nowadays. So, please point out where I have wronged you in our discussions here and I will unconditionally withdraw any offending statement.

3) I am a simpleton and not an intellectual in it's true sense. I have some very basic beliefs that I have formulated as a guiding principle in my life, mainly through experience:
a) I do not like big central government. Because I believe that resources are limited, it is best to leave the maximizing of it through private institutions. However I think that the national government has legitimate role in defense, civil/criminal justice, handling national resources (such as rivers etc.) and making sure that the destitute and people in dire straits taken care of. I think the central government also need to make sure to regulate the private sector so that the society will not be affected (such as pollution, etc.).
b) I absolutely believe in the US constitution as one of the miracle documents ever produced by some very unique and gifted individuals. I do not like an active judiciary, making laws from the bench. If the congress can not pass a law or the constitutional requirement for amending it can not be passed, then no law should be passed from the bench.
c) I believe in capitalism and free enterprise as the only effective tools known to man till today to create wealth. For this to function well, I believe in egalitarianism and meritocracy among the population.
d) I do not believe in distribution of wealth by the government. Today we have a situation where almost 70% of the people in USA do not pay any taxes or little taxes while the top 30% support the society. In my opinion, this will lead to disaster in time.
e) I do not think that the sins of any past generation should be thrusted upon the current generation. This is why I reject any racism, quota reservations, liberation theology, compensation for past sins etc.

I think I have covered my basic philosophy. I use these as guidelines to evaluate any topic. My further comments are in 'blue' below.

Dear Shri KRS, Greetings!



After the initial spurts early on, we have been quite civil to each other and you have been fair to me personally, and I have noticed that and appreciate it very much. However, I find that in discussions you adopt a sort of double standard, i.e. one set of rules for you and another for others, at least in my case this is so. Here are a few examples of that.

  • You say you don't want to be drawn into labeling game, but you freely label others
    Hope I have shown myself to be an independent minded person. Please tell me again where I have labeled anyone who says that they are independent.
  • You reject out of hand Paul Krugman, a Nobel prize laureate, but insist Dinesh D'Souza, a well known right-wing hack much like Ann Coulter, as an academic
    In no way I have diminished Krugman's contributions to Economics (his Nobel prize is in that). I am in no place to critique him on that. But his political/social opinions can be evaluated and criticized. I am quoting from Wikipedia:"Krugman's New York Times columns have drawn criticisms as well as praise. A 2003 article in The Economist questioned Krugman's "growing tendency to attribute all the world's ills to George Bush," referencing critics who felt that "his relentless partisanship is getting in the way of his argument" and citing what it claimed were errors of economic and political reasoning in Krugman's columns.[70] A 2008 commentary by economist Daniel B. Klein in Econ Journal Watch criticizes Krugman's columns and argues that Krugman's "social-democratic impetus sometimes trumps people's interests, notably poor people's interests... Krugman has almost never come out against extant government interventions, even ones that expert economists seem to agree are bad, and especially so for the poor."[88] Daniel Okrent, a former New York Times ombudsman, in his farewell column, criticized Paul Krugman for what he claimed was "the disturbing habit of shaping, slicing and selectively citing numbers in a fashion that pleases his acolytes but leaves him open to substantive assaults."[89][90]
    Krugman also has a blog, named "The Conscience of a Liberal," in which he discusses economics, politics, and policy. Krugman has become a favorite of netroots liberals because of his robust, full-throated defense of liberal economic and social policies, and his aggressiveness in their defense, which is generally uncharacteristic of establishment media figures. Because of this implacability, Krugman has been (favorably) referred to by many online commentators and bloggers (such as Andrew Sullivan and John Cole) as "K-Thug.""
    This is the same reason I do not read Norm Chomsky's political opinions (I have met him before through my wife who was a linguist). Same with the likes of Ann Coulter or Dinesh D'Souza. I consider their opinions as too much ideologically tinged.
  • The standard for seriousness or importance is rigged in your favor -- you admit Bush may have lied and hard to prove, yet you cite this as equal in serious to support for "second amendment remedies" (armed insurrection) and investigating elected members of Congress on suspicion of being Anti-American (witch-hunt)
    Professor, there is a very big difference in saying that Bush may have lied and saying that HE LIED. This is egregious about a President without proof. While I agree with your assessment of the "second amendment remedies" as kooky and dangerous, I do not agree with your assessment of Michelle Bachmann. She was asking the press to investigate to the motives of some congressmen. I don't see how asking the press to do a job is McCarthyism!
This is the reason I hesitate to enter into a discussion with you.
Again, I am ready to discuss on points. But again, you have not answered my questions in the previous post, point by point - instead you are again calling names. Let us discuss issues on their merit and not on code words.

I have watched and read Dinesh D'Souza for a long time now. IMO he is just a hack, high strung on conservatism, an epitome of an ideologue (yet you, an avowed anti-ideologue cite him -- see the double standard) incapable of calm reasonable discussion. Connecting Kenya and Obama in his hit-piece in Forbes is, to put it charitably, completely disingenuous. I don't like some of Obama's policies and all of his political calculations, but I can recognize a dirty-trick when I see one. Only a hack would do such a thing.
Professor, I only cited his Forbes article, because you quoted Newt, who was referring to the article. Again, if you can, go and refute him sentence by sentence. But, instead, you are calling him names again and use words like 'disingenuous'. Where exactly he connects his article to the 'birther' issue. Why his point not valid for discussion? Okay, if Dinesh is a 'hack' as you say, how does it change the merit of his POV in this article? I do not understand. By the way, I do not read Dinesh's opinions either. I read it, because of your posting about Newt. I have never read any of Ann Coulter's books/articles either. As I have said, I do not read any opinions tinged with ideology unless I want to now and then know about an issue in depth.

Cheers!

Regards,
KRS
 
I have watched and read Dinesh D'Souza for a long time now. IMO he is just a hack, high strung on conservatism, an epitome of an ideologue (yet you, an avowed anti-ideologue cite him -- see the double standard) incapable of calm reasonable discussion. Connecting Kenya and Obama in his hit-piece in Forbes is, to put it charitably, completely disingenuous. I don't like some of Obama's policies and all of his political calculations, but I can recognize a dirty-trick when I see one. Only a hack would do such a thing.

Cheers!
I don't know anything about US Politics but when I read the Forbes article I found this line at the end:

Dinesh D'Souza, the president of the King's College in New York City, is the author of the forthcoming book The Roots of Obama's Rage (Regnery Publishing).

This gave me an immediate doubt that the article itself could have been written to increase the sales potential for his forthcoming book and nothing more.
 
Dear Sri Sangom Ji,

You are correct. But this practice of publishing tid bits from a forthcoming book in magazines as a 'tease' to garner sales is very common. Book companies regularly place such articles. It is a marketing hook. Practiced by most book companies for authors of all persuation.

Regards,
KRS
 
Dear Professor Nara Ji,

I was thinking about my posting and I thought may be I did not elaborate on one important point.

I do not discriminate on the content from anyone, irrespective of their ideology. I have read many columns by Professor Krugman, mainly because my research on particular topics brought his columns up. I do not dismiss all his ideas - only the ideas that do not make sense to me.

Likewise, when I first read Dinesh's article, I did not find any outrage as you depicted. I thought it is fairly reasoned out.

This is why I do not understand your position. At the end of the day, anyone can call anyone names and label them, but the fact remains if something makes sense even from the mouth of a fool, you need to consider the content on its own merits.

This is what I tried to explain, but perhaps not too directly. Hope this makes sense.

Regards,
KRS
 
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Dear Shri KRS, Greetings!

I appreciate your detailed narrative of where you are coming from. I will also provide a narrative of the principles I hold dear. But first, a few points of clarification.

You have not labeled me in a "hurtful" way at all. My point is only that one can't go about labeling other people and then say I myself don't want to be labeled. One can't say I will discount Paul Krugman or Frank Rich, but Dinesh D'Souza is good.

In this context, we all have our own system of values that matter to us. Mine are common good, justice, innate respect of everyone, and such. Based on these values, we make choices, after all we can't have 'em all. In this choice, after having followed Dinesh D'Souza for a while now, it is more than likely that I am not going to gain any value reading him. Perhaps I am wrong in this one instance, anything is possible, but since we all have to ration our scare time resource, I think in the long run I am better off spending my time reading other things than Dinesh.

My values: I believe humans are social animals. By and large we can't live by ourselves -- not many can be like Ted Kaczynski. We have to learn to live in a community. When we live as a part of larger society, there is a tension between individual rights and his/her obligations arising out of the benefits he/she derives from the society. A balance needs to be struck. In this balance, the rights of the individual cannot supersede that of the society as a whole, nor the rights of the society be allowed to stifle the aspirations of the individual.

We are now required to define where society's needs end and the individual's rights begin. Our differences perhaps can be traced to where we draw this line. I think Thomas Jefferson gave us a kind of boiler-plate definition of this in the declaration of independence, namely, life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. I believe that governments, in as much as the best of them are of the people, by the people, and for the people, must endeavor to make it possible for the governed to be able to secure the fruits of these ideals. My politics flows from this philosophy. I don't care whether an individual is conservative or liberal, Democrat or Republican, I support those who support and work for the fulfillment of these principles.

The prerequisites for pursuit of happiness include, food, shelter, right to a job with living wage, quality education, decent health care, reasonable leisure to enjoy the fruits of labor, et al. These must be the ingredients with which our goals and objectives must be developed. As a society, we must allow capitalism to flourish only to the extent these goals are advanced. In other words, capitalism cannot be our goal, it can only be a means.

No capitalist can exist without a market. For the capitalist to make profit, he/she needs a market. Since an organized society readily offers this market to the capitalist, he/she must pay for this privilege to the extent they use this system. The more you benefit from this system, the more is the share of your obligation to sustain the society. This is the principle behind the widely accepted principle of progressive taxation. During the time of FDR, the top marginal income tax rate was 94%. Now, Obama wants it to go back the rate under Clinton, 39.6% from 35%, and he is getting derided as a socialist.

Another wonderment for me is the case of what the so called individualists call "death tax". If one believes in true individualism and merit to determine one's destiny one would expect them to champion a 100% estate tax. But the same people, for whom individual merit is the holy grail bar none, are the ones wanting to completely eliminate the estate tax. The sad fact is, this tax is easily avoided by the ultra rich, a case in point is that of estate of George Steinbrenner, billionaire owner of the New York Yankees Major League Baseball franchise, paid not a cent in estate taxes.

I believe a capitalist must pay the true cost of using the commons, such as the ready made market an organized society offers, the natural resources, the airwaves, and the environment, but they seldom do. The more you use it, the more you should pay for it. The sole responsibility of governments is to look after the welfare of the society as a whole. A capitalist's needs are to be supported only to the extent it is beneficial to the society as a whole. With Republicans in power, this will never happen. With Democrats also it will not happen, but may be there is a slim chance.

I do believe the U.S. constitution is a remarkable document. Its promise was more serendipitous rather than willful. After all, the rights the founding fathers wanted to protect were that of the man of property -- not that of a common man, not of women, not of anyone other than white. We need to look at the document in its proper perspective and not go overboard in reverence. The promise is still being realized, as is in other societies far removed from the U.S.

Dear Shri KRS, I don't want to go point-by-point with the rest, it is just an exercise in going in circles. I hope I have given a synopsis of the principles I value.

Thank you ...
 
Dear Professor Nara Ji,
My response below in blue.
Dear Shri KRS, Greetings!

I appreciate your detailed narrative of where you are coming from. I will also provide a narrative of the principles I hold dear. But first, a few points of clarification.

You have not labeled me in a "hurtful" way at all. My point is only that one can't go about labeling other people and then say I myself don't want to be labeled. One can't say I will discount Paul Krugman or Frank Rich, but Dinesh D'Souza is good.
I label some folks as 'liberal', 'conservative', 'extreme left' or 'extreme right' based on their ideology. Since I do not think I follow any ideology, I do not want to be labeled with any of the 'standard' labels. If one comes up with truly a label that would describe my positions, then, I welcome it. By the way, I only said that Dinesh's article is well reasoned out and should be part of a discussion. I never said 'he was good'. Again, I discount Rich and Krugman as much as any conservative columnists - I just do not read opinions. If you had cited a column by either of these gentlemen, I would have told you where I agree and where I do not - but we are discussing an article by Dinesh. Looks also like you might have missed my point, despite my additional posting on this. My only questions again about the article was, 1) where does he connects to the 'birther' issue, and 2) why his idea is beyond discussion? Again, his words need to be evaluated, not his ideology.

In this context, we all have our own system of values that matter to us. Mine are common good, justice, innate respect of everyone, and such. Based on these values, we make choices, after all we can't have 'em all. In this choice, after having followed Dinesh D'Souza for a while now, it is more than likely that I am not going to gain any value reading him. Perhaps I am wrong in this one instance, anything is possible, but since we all have to ration our scare time resource, I think in the long run I am better off spending my time reading other things than Dinesh.
But, Professor. By quoting and passing judgement on Newt for saying something, don't you take any responsibility to read the underlying article? I don't blame you for not reading Dinesh (like me), but I somehow think that once you commented on someone saying something, then you are indeed obligated to read the entire context behind it, to be intellectually honest. I am actually surprised that as an intellectual, you would not analyze this to it's conclusion!

My values: I believe humans are social animals. By and large we can't live by ourselves -- not many can be like Ted Kaczynski. We have to learn to live in a community. When we live as a part of larger society, there is a tension between individual rights and his/her obligations arising out of the benefits he/she derives from the society. A balance needs to be struck. In this balance, the rights of the individual cannot supersede that of the society as a whole, nor the rights of the society be allowed to stifle the aspirations of the individual.
Beautifully put and I agree.

We are now required to define where society's needs end and the individual's rights begin. Our differences perhaps can be traced to where we draw this line. I think Thomas Jefferson gave us a kind of boiler-plate definition of this in the declaration of independence, namely, life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. I believe that governments, in as much as the best of them are of the people, by the people, and for the people, must endeavor to make it possible for the governed to be able to secure the fruits of these ideals. My politics flows from this philosophy. I don't care whether an individual is conservative or liberal, Democrat or Republican, I support those who support and work for the fulfillment of these principles.
Again, I have to agree.

The prerequisites for pursuit of happiness include, food, shelter, right to a job with living wage, quality education, decent health care, reasonable leisure to enjoy the fruits of labor, et al. These must be the ingredients with which our goals and objectives must be developed. As a society, we must allow capitalism to flourish only to the extent these goals are advanced. In other words, capitalism cannot be our goal, it can only be a means.
This is where perhaps we differ. My interpretation of Jefferson's words mean that the playing field should be the same for all to pursue their happiness. I do not believe that it is a 'right' for someone to expect from their government - food, shelter, education, healthcare, and job. As we all know, if we give our children a sense of entitlement, they most likely would not succeed in life. Same with the society. Unless people have the motivation to make these things happen by themselves, the society would not succeed. I am not here talking about the truly destitute who can not play in a level field. There should be a safety net for them, always.

No capitalist can exist without a market. For the capitalist to make profit, he/she needs a market. Since an organized society readily offers this market to the capitalist, he/she must pay for this privilege to the extent they use this system. The more you benefit from this system, the more is the share of your obligation to sustain the society. This is the principle behind the widely accepted principle of progressive taxation. During the time of FDR, the top marginal income tax rate was 94%. Now, Obama wants it to go back the rate under Clinton, 39.6% from 35%, and he is getting derided as a socialist.
This where we totally disagree. You talk as if all capital investments succeed. Perhaps one in 10 flourish. There is risk involved. This is why, the progressive taxation does not make any sense. You are killing the risk taking behaviour that creates jobs by it. Unless everyone pays their dues to using the 'commons' as you phrase it, then there will be those who will get a free ride. Why should this be so? I think the flat tax concept (may be with some progressiveness built in to it) resolves this. I think, anyone who earns, irrespective of the amount, should pay some tax. Otherwise there is no buy-in in to the society.

Another wonderment for me is the case of what the so called individualists call "death tax". If one believes in true individualism and merit to determine one's destiny one would expect them to champion a 100% estate tax. But the same people, for whom individual merit is the holy grail bar none, are the ones wanting to completely eliminate the estate tax. The sad fact is, this tax is easily avoided by the ultra rich, a case in point is that of estate of George Steinbrenner, billionaire owner of the New York Yankees Major League Baseball franchise, paid not a cent in estate taxes.
As you correctly pointed out, this affects the middle class more than anyone else. This is against the average human nature. One is driven to succeed and save money for one's children. If the government takes away this - and to me this is really odorous on its philosophy (why should the government tax twice?), what is the incentive. This also violates the basic principle of one's right to property. I almost consider this a communistic policy where individual rights are trampled.

I believe a capitalist must pay the true cost of using the commons, such as the ready made market an organized society offers, the natural resources, the airwaves, and the environment, but they seldom do. The more you use it, the more you should pay for it. The sole responsibility of governments is to look after the welfare of the society as a whole. A capitalist's needs are to be supported only to the extent it is beneficial to the society as a whole. With Republicans in power, this will never happen. With Democrats also it will not happen, but may be there is a slim chance.
As I have said, Capitalism and Free Enterprise are the only effective TOOLS to create wealth known to man. Let us not treat the system as usurpers - they take risks, succeed, provide jobs and create wealth for the society. Innovation is possible because of their drive and entrepreneurship. But, as I have said, you need to have regulations. I do not see the Capitalists and Free Enterprise as enemies of the society. Instead I see them as a requirement for a society to thrive, and the trick is to make them thrive with proper rules to safeguard the interests of the society.

I do believe the U.S. constitution is a remarkable document. Its promise was more serendipitous rather than willful. After all, the rights the founding fathers wanted to protect were that of the man of property -- not that of a common man, not of women, not of anyone other than white. We need to look at the document in its proper perspective and not go overboard in reverence. The promise is still being realized, as is in other societies far removed from the U.S.
Here again, we are coming against our disagreements with a progression of a society and not evaluating the past with today's norms. Of course during those times, a landowner was considered as the responsible stake holder. So, initially that's how the constitution was framed. But the genius of it was that the founders knew that things may change in the future and provided the way. Yes, I do go overboard with reverence and I won't apologize for it.

Dear Shri KRS, I don't want to go point-by-point with the rest, it is just an exercise in going in circles. I hope I have given a synopsis of the principles I value.
Fair enough - I won't press.

Thank you ...

Regards,
KRS
 
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Here is a news
U.S. got 7K jobs via Indian IT cos in August - SiliconIndia



New Delhi: Indian IT companies were responsible for the creation of 7,000 jobs in the U.S. in the month of August. This figure comes to forefront at a time when the U.S. is resorting to protectionist measures.

Anand Sharma, the Union Commerce Minister revealed that about 2.5 lakh jobs have been created in the U.S. by Indian IT companies over the last three years. Sharma said, "In times of crisis, countries tend to look inwards but protection can be counterproductive. This is the time to encourage global trade flows."

Recently news from U.S. was that the country was hiking professional visa fees and clamping down on outsourcing, in an effort to save its 'jobs'. These measures were met with strong criticism from the Indian Inc.

In a bilateral trade policy forum meeting, these current issues will be put up for discussion. The meeting will be chaired by Sharma and U.S. trade representative Ron Kirk.

The Commerce minister is hopeful of arriving at results on these issues. He said, "We remain optimistic about the whole scenario but responses need to be calibrated."
 
Please see the web
Ex-I.B.M. Executive in Galleon Case Says Affair Was Business - NYTimes.com


Ex-I.B.M. Executive in Galleon Case Says Affair Was Business

July 7, 2010, 6:38 am
galleon_icon75x75.jpg

Robert Moffat, the former I.B.M. executive who admitted to charges of insider trading in the Galleon hedge fund investigation, wants people to know that his affair with co-defendant Danielle Chiesi was not about sex.
In an interview with Fortune, Mr. Moffat, who pleaded guilty on March 29 to securities fraud and conspiracy charges, said that his relationship with Ms. Chiesi was really more about business.
Mr. Moffat, once a candidate to succeed I.B.M.’s chief executive, Samuel Palmisano, is scheduled to be sentenced on Sept. 13 in Manhattan federal court for his role in what prosecutors describe as the biggest inquiry of insider trading at hedge funds in the United States, Reuters said.
In somewhat purple prose, Fortune says Mr. Moffat “came across as emotional, repentant, and chastened” in the interview:
He wept describing the embarrassment he’d brought upon I.B.M., his colleagues, and family. While he showed little self-pity, he rebuffed the notion that he hadn’t paid a price for his crimes, noting that by leaving I.B.M. he was giving up an estimated $65 million in lost stock options and pension that he would have collected when he retired at 60. “The biggest thing I’ve lost,” he said, “is my reputation.” Mr. Moffat was not allowed by his lawyer to discuss his case or his relationship with Ms. Chiesi, but when told that Fortune intended to write about the affair, he said this: “Everyone wants to make this about sex. Danielle had an extensive network of business people. And she added clarity about what was going on in the business world…I know in my heart what this relationship was about: clarity in the business environment.” He may even believe that.
Ms. Chiesi and Galleon hedge fund founder Raj Rajaratnam, 53, the principal defendants in the case, have pleaded not guilty to fraud and conspiracy charges. They are fighting to suppress wiretap evidence before their October trial.
Mr. Moffat’s involvement in the insider trading scandal shocked his colleagues and left a 31-year career at I.B.M. in ruins, Fortune says:
…of all the buttoned-down executives at Big Blue, Moffat was the last one that old friends could imagine being caught up in a scandal, let alone a crime. The former Eagle Scout had a reputation for loyalty as solid as his 6-foot-2, 265-pound frame.
Kenneth Hammer, a former I.B.M. lawyer who had worked with Mr. Moffat, recalled his reaction on hearing of the arrest: “There was no planet on which I could have understood what was being said about Bob. I just shut down.”
 
How is this case, already nearly one year old, relevant to this thread?

I also wonder how is the back and forth between Prof Nara and Shri KRS relevant to this thread?
Maybe Shri Ramacchandran wanted to share this titbit and thought this is a good place to dump :)
 
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Dear Shri KRS, Greetings!

I label some folks as 'liberal', 'conservative', 'extreme left' or 'extreme right' based on their ideology. Since I do not think I follow any ideology, I do not want to be labeled with any of the 'standard' labels. If one comes up with truly a label that would describe my positions, then, I welcome it.
Well, when you say you did not want to be drawn into labeling game it can only mean it goes both ways. If you want to label others based on what you see as their ideology, then you must be prepared to accept the labels others place on you based on their perception of your ideology. From what you have described as the ideas that you value you are nothing short of an arch-conservative to me.

Further, what is ideology anyway if not subscribing to a set of ideas that mean something to you. So, I see nothing wrong being motivated by worthwhile ideas. One who unapologetically sticks to his/her guns even in the face of overwhelming evidence are ideologues, nobody will want to be labeled as that, but being motivated by worthy ideas such as Liberté, Egalité, and Fraternité, that is no vice in my book.

That brings me to Dinesh and Newt. I have followed both of them and read both of them. From what I have seen of Dinesh I know I will only rarely go wrong if I discount him 100% and I am willing to take that risk. This is not a flippant response, but one based on observation over a long period of time. In this context, when Newt makes a connection between Obama and Kenya, and cites Dinesh as his source, I have no obligation to go digging around what Dinesh said to find justification. Obama and his views are well known, covered incessantly. If Newt thinks we need to see him as an Kenyan anti-colonialist to properly understand Obama, that in my books, is an outrageous statement. Such statements are unworthy of any further study. They are intended to extract maximum attention from those who see America slipping away from what they consider to be White-Christian nation -- the same crowd that elected last night the goofeball Christine O'Donnell to be the Republican Senate candidate from Delaware and the racist Carl Paladino as the Republican candidate for Governor of NY State. This is the state to which the Republican party has sunk.

Capitalism must be subordinated to free-enterprise. Both must be subordinated to the welfare of the society. They are good only in so far as it brings benefits to the society.

I have a class to go to, so I can't give a well documented account of what has happened in the U.S. over the years when top marginal tax rate has been high or low. But, there is enough evidence to show that the U.S. saw unprecedented economic growth when the top rate was 94%, even when it came down to 50%. But, after Reagan and Bush, with the top rate down to 35%, the total wealth of the nation is further concentrated at the top, the income gap between rich and poor widened astronomically. and this did not benefit the society in any way, the economic vitality of U.S. has been steadily going down.

I am not in favor of 100% estate tax. I was only pointing to the double talk of conservatives who champion personal responsibility and merit on the one hand, and on the other want to create an entitlement for the children of the rich to simply inherit all of their parent's wealth. To be consistent to their principles, the conservatives must push for 100% estate tax.

Yes, I do go overboard with reverence and I won't apologize for it.
To me at least, this comes across as a mark of an ideologue!!!

Cheers!
 
Dear Professor Nara Ji,

You are right - we are going in circles! I also agree with some here who say that our discussion has nothing to do with the topic of the thread.

Call me, tag me with anything you want. I do not mind. Even if you call me a 'hack', that is fine. I have told you why I think that the constitution is a work of genius, then you call me an idealogue! Okay, fine. Your statements and arguments only tell me that there can be no give and take between us, based on logic. Let it be so. But I will try to counter any unsubstantiated statements from you for our members.

But, let the record show that you have not answered any specific questions from me, including the proof that Bush lied. Instead, you have used all the artful dodging forms: putting up strawmen, calling names, labeling people, just throwing out epithets without proof based on implied hearsay and at last attacking me on the basis of as trivial as 'not wanting' to be labelled. I did not want to be labelled, not because I think it is bad, but some of my outlook can be termed conservative, some liberal and yet others libertarian. But if one can find a suitable label, then I have no issue with being labelled. I have these 'kadhambam' of values/outlook, because, as I have said I do not generally read books on political/social philosophy. I independently form my own opinions, based on my own thinking, on my own sense.

One final thing. Because, this is how I think. Except notably for defense and building infrastructure, no government activity produces wealth as compared to the private sector. So, I don't understand how when a government taxes at 97%, that will contribute to increasing the wealth of a country. If that capital is in private hands, it seems to me it would be earning at the least a return through the banks.

May be I am too dense as an arch conservative idealogue!

Regards,
KRS
 
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Dear Shri KRS, Greetings!

Just some clarifications ...

... I have told you why I think that the constitution is a work of genius, then you call me an idealogue!
Please Shri KRS I did no such thing. I felt your response to my suggestion not to go overboard came across as such, that is all.

So, I don't understand how when a government taxes at 97%, that will contribute to increasing the wealth of a country.
I am not in favor of extremely high top rate for income. But, I think the full story is never told by the establishment media. Perhaps I can put together an account of the government facilitated wealth transfer from everyone else to the already ultra rich that has been going on for decades in the U.S. when time permits.

Cheers!
 
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Dear Professor Nara Ji,

Please read my last post. As you were posting yours, I have added a para. Benefit of thinking over taking a shower!

Thanks for your response.

Regards,
KRS
 
....But, let the record show that you have not answered any specific questions from me, including the proof that Bush lied.

Dear Shri KRS, I thought we had closed this discussion, but unfortunately you are reopening it again.

I knew all along there is no chance of any resolution with you on this topic. My original intent was limited to your attempt to draw an an equivalency between what you label "extreme" left wing and right wing. I listed a sample of the kooky things the Republican leadership have been saying here. By anyone's standard these are kooky, not just mine. I asked you to show similar kookiness from the left, and all you could come up with are several senators accusing Bush of lying about Iraq war. Even you admit Bush may have lied, only that it cannot be proved.

That is it! On the one hand we have a line up of Republican leadership saying a range of outlandish stuff, and on the other we have an accusation of lying for a which a reasonable argument (see below for one) can be made.

All that the extreme left can be accused of is being naive enough to believe in such impractical things as social justice, equality, compassion, etc. The more right you go, you get more and more of the racists, supremacists, paranoids, et al. Reasonable conservatives are being sidelined from the Republican party -- a range of sitting Republican Senators have already been booted out. This should be a matter of concern for all, not just the Republicans.

There is no equivalency between the left and the right. Even the "most extreme" among the left are way less kooky than the "main-stream right", the leadership of the Republican party. This was the point I started out with.

So, let the record show that there is no equivalency between the right and the left.

Now you want me to prove Bush lied.

What level of proof is needed? In criminal cases, the standard of proof is beyond reasonable doubt. In civil cases, it is preponderance of evidence. In the case of impeachment, political calculations cloud the issue. In the court of public opinion, the standard of proof is, if it walks like a duck, swims like a duck, quacks like a duck, it is a duck.

In 2006, a retired CIA chief of clandestine operations for Europe, Tyler Drumheller, revealed that Bush White House knew about the absence of any significant or ongoing Chemical/biological and Nuclear weapons programs. CIA was in secret contact with Naji Sabri, Iraqi Foreign Minister under Saddam, as early as, or as late depending upon POV, in September 2002. He confirmed to CIA that Saddam did not have Chemical/biological and Nuclear weapons programs. The intelligence community had reasons to believe Sabri, as he had given other information that were known to be accurate. The Bush White House was informed about the unreliable nature of both the chemical/biological weapons claim and the nuclear weapons claims.

On the nuclear weapons side, the documents purporting Saddam purchasing yellow cake from Niger was well known to be fake among intelligence agencies of several countries. On top, Joe Wilson went to Niger and reported back debunking this theory. Bush people went out of the way to smear Wilson and in the process outed a secret CIA operative. Just imagine what the Republicans would have done if a Democrat had pulled such a stunt.

So, Bush knew, but he couldn't be dissuaded, the decision to take out Saddam was made long time ago. There is enough about this in the British press, look it up.

While all this was going on behind the scene, Bush never once flinched in his determination, never couched his proclamations with any sort of hedging, it was all starkly crystal clear, never any ray of doubt.

All this may not add up to a criminal conviction, but enough to give it a shot. The Democrats will never have the spine or a pair to bring any of the Bush people to justice. That leaves, civil cases standard and public opinion standard. By Public Opinion standard this a "slam dunk" (h/t the infamous George Tenet). IMO, this preponderance of evidence will satisfy a jury looking for civil case standard.

Cheers!
 
If Outsourcing is stopped then the booming IT sector will be dead as a duck.
 
Dear Shri KRS, I thought we had closed this discussion, but unfortunately you are reopening it again.

I knew all along there is no chance of any resolution with you on this topic.....

nara,your post sums up my decision to become independent and support mrs.clinto in the primary,but a better man won.today we have an awesome president,making every american proud,at least the middle class.newt,rush,..etc are just going bonkers,therapists are doing roaring biz on account of republicans,at least some one is happy with republicans. oil producing countries colluded to get saddam hussain and usa was used as the thug in that neighborhood.i wish i could use policeman in that neighbhorhood,but alas.
 
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