If Out source jobs from U.S.stops what will be the fate of Indian I.T.Sector?

[Ramacchandran]

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UK cuts cost, to outsource 100 jobs to India

UK cuts cost, to outsource 100 jobs to India - Latest Current-affairs News

 

[Nara]

...This is type of thinking on ideological lines that are really opinions in America goes as hard news. More and more I see it on the extreme left than on the extreme right, while they both do it.

Dear Shri KRS, Greetings!

You may think you are an independent, and you have every right to think that. But, I find your pronouncements very heavily slanted to the right. Who is truly independent or who is not is something that cannot be simply asserted. All it takes to assert independent thinking is a few keystrokes.

We all make value judgment. These are made on the basis of what sounds correct to us. What is right and what is wrong is not at the mid point of what is "right" and what is "left" in the political spectrum, a point that is supposed to be the dwindling center.

Hard news is something that cannot be found in much of the American press, NY Times or WashPost or other such corporate, establishment mouthpieces. They operate more like stenographers than journalists. True journalism exists only in independent media and some international press. For all the negativity US politicians and right-wing conservatives direct at it, Aljazera gives much more balanced news than any high-priced media outlet anywhere in the U.S.

Cheers!

 

[KRS]

Dear Professor Nara Ji,

Yes, we all make value judgments. Claiming to be an independent in the American context is a very narrow one - I don't subscribe to either party.

However, as I have said, facts are facts and when we make broad stroke statements that are particularly pointed at some group/people, one needs to be very careful to base those opinions on known current facts.

For example, you made a statement (I am paraphrasing) 'Hindus lost all wars against the invaders'. When I pointed out the mistake based on facts, you changed your wording. I have done the same myself several times in this Forum. Is expecting the same behavior from our members too much?

We can disagree on philosophy as that involves prioritization. However, I hope you are not saying that one can say that a fact is not a fact and base one's opinion on the non-fact.

Regards
KRS

 

[kunjuppu]

KRS, i would like to take back my broad based comments about southern white racists. to be true,there are racists among all groups, and i think, TBs probably stand high up near the top.

the average white american, i have found, is probably the most open and friendly group in the world - again a broad brush statement,but averaged out, i would like to stick with it.

KRS, i still think, the US has lost out in losing out its manufacturing base. in another post, 'brahmins fight for survival', i posted a linke to a video re singapore prime minister's address on its national day.

i saw only part 1 & 2. very interesting from the viewpoint of contemporary u.s. politics, and i think, also a lesson, on how to better manage the situations, than what the u.s. does.

i also feel, that a large section of the average u.s. family profits from the illegal immigrants. i know of friends, employing these, family as a whole, pay them about $2 an hour, dusk to dawn 6 days a week at home service - all kinds of odd jobs, cooking, cleaning, gardening. when i challenged one of my well to do friends, he just smiled, and said that this was a 'way of life' in the u.s. and (perversely) incidentally if he did not help the mexican family, they would starve in mexico.

as mr. lee of singapore points out, if the illegals all left usa today, the society would break down. this problem started in the 50s and every one of the governments, republican & democrat avoided the issue. now the cows have come home to roost.

as one whose family fortunes are now dependent on the usa, i, from canada, am alarmed. so are my u.s. based friends< a few after nearly thirty five years in the usa have packed up and gone to india< to start again a new life in their late fifties instead of enjoying the fruits of near retirement

 

[Nara]

Dear K, Greetings!

...the average white american, i have found, is probably the most open and friendly group in the world -

This is true of average Black American, Hispanic, ....

BTW, racism is not a binary condition, i.e. one is one, or, is not one. It is a condition that seeps into everyone to varying degrees. There are some who are openly and virulently racist, the Neo-Nazi types, there are others who hold racist views but hide it very well, and then there are yet others, perfectly gentle and lovely people, with latent racism and don't even notice it is there.

Race is an unfinished business, it is the third rail of American social intercourse. The Skip Gates incident last year is a vivid reminder that racism is lurking just under the surface. Open racism is not tolerated anymore, code-worded racism a la Reagan and Bush Sr., are still there, but probably already crested and started to recede. But institutionalized racism that people don't even notice is alive and kicking. Americans have come a long way, but the journey is not over yet, a long way to go still remains.

.... the US has lost out in losing out its manufacturing base.

U.S. may not produce stuff here in the U.S., but they are innovating new stuff here, they are designing stuff here, they are designing how to make stuff here, and so on. As the global economy becomes more and more knowledge based, loss of physical manufacturing plants may not amount to much.

But the side effects of the globalization affects the least powerful world over. The mega-corporations get to modify local laws to suit them, and then proceed to rape the environment and the locals are left to bear the cost. Even a politically advanced country like India is not immune, just look at the liability debate going on in India for the American nuclear power companies. Both Congress and BJP have joined hands to limit the liability of these companies.

i know of friends, employing these, family as a whole, pay them about $2 an hour, dusk to dawn 6 days a week at home service - all kinds of odd jobs, cooking, cleaning, gardening.

This is not correct K. The undocumented citizens from Latin America are paid $10 an hour for the odd jobs you mention. Regular jobs in companies may pay a little less, or sometimes even more, but they get exploited in other ways because of their status. Have you seen the movie Fast Food Nation? This is a "must see" movie, a little preachy, but good. In any case, $2 for an entire family is just not true.

Cheers!

 

[kunjuppu]

This is not correct K. The undocumented citizens from Latin America are paid $10 an hour for the odd jobs you mention. Regular jobs in companies may pay a little less, or sometimes even more, but they get exploited in other ways because of their status. Have you seen the movie Fast Food Nation? This is a "must see" movie, a little preachy, but good. In any case, $2 for an entire family is just not true.

Cheers!

right nara. $10/hour for a family of 5 - father, mother, grandma, 2 kids - mother helped with cooking & chores, father did gardening outdoor work, granma babysat the the young baby, the two kids were playing companion for the 4 year old. all avalilable beck and call the whole day - 6 days of week. they had, and lived in a pickup truck .. god knows where they slept..but they ate, bathed, cleaned in my freind house.

 

[kunjuppu]

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/09/01/us/01jobs.html?_r=1&hpw

nara, KRS,

the above article portrays some elements of what i am talking about.

what the u.s. has given away in manufacturing, is the ability and skillsets to manufacture goods which makes goods ie capital equipment manufacture.

i agree, that no one cares if your safety pin or nail hammer comes from china. but when your deep sea rigs come from singapore, which has no oil or deep sea in the first place, when the molds and dies for your car factories come from germany, the robots come from japan, i think, it is time that an average american started worrying.

because, the true strength of manufacturing is not necessarily producing the end product, but the product to produce the end product. for example: hyundai has a cutting edge car factory in chennai - all the machines to make those cars came from korea. THAT mattered. it does not matter if the cars are made in chennai or the usa.

i feel that i am not getting across right in my emphasis. these are knowledge based heavy industries. germany, japan, korea, singapore, china excel. have you seen website info of those humungous shipyards of hyundai? the u.s. had such shipyards which won world war 2. where did they all go? it ended up in japan.

the u.s. had 6 aircraft companies. now only one makes passenger aircraft. not sure if wall street is the villain. this constant emphasis on profit making and increasing every financial period is a killer for long term planning, thinking and taking risks.

 

[Nara]

right nara. $10/hour for a family of 5 - father, mother, grandma, 2 kids - mother helped with cooking & chores, father did gardening outdoor work, granma babysat the the young baby,

No, No, it is $10/hour per person -- I thought that was self evident. The case you are citing, if true, is an aberration, but I doubt it is true. Cheers!

 

[suresoo]

Dear KRS Ji,
You quoted "The New Ledger" to discount Thomas Friedman, hence i tweeted......
The Spectrum you hold is your choice and i do not want to question that.

Many times the data itself is skewed and the facts derived from that data is mired.

Sir, irrespective of what most in America think, you would admit that there are certain things that are called data, facts and truth. For example, there is a small section of conservatives (I call them rednecks), who still believe that Obama was not born on IS soil,
KRS

This news source says 41% of R's think he is probably not a citizen. In your words it looks like there are too many rednecks on the surface of the free world!!
or maybe the data is skewed.

thanks,

 

[kunjuppu]

No, No, it is $10/hour per person -- I thought that was self evident. The case you are citing, if true, is an aberration, but I doubt it is true. Cheers!

nara,,

these families are exploited by the u.s. middle and upper middle classes. theyprovide a luxury need. at the end of the day, the americans wish they would go back to their countries. except the countries are far away and the imposition of rules lax.

singapore, uae manage migrant workers better, atleast in terms of organizing permits etc. the u.s. and europe apparently appear unable to do this.

 

[Raghy]

Sri.Kunjuppu,

From the NYT article says .."After being out of work for more than a year, Donna Ings, 47, finally landed a job in February as a home health aide with a company in Lexington, Mass., earning about $10 an hour.".

How can someone make a living with that kind of wages? When I lost my job in Newmarket (paying $23/hour), I looked around; it was not a brainer to see I could end up with $7-8 /hour job if I didn't get back to my trade; but people in my trade were getting the bullet at the rate about 15-20 every week. Now, why the home health aide gets only about $10 per hour? In Australia, when they work in a nursing home, they get about $18/hour; if they visit the client, they get about $20 per hour. It really beats me..

Cheers!

 

[hariharan1972]

Somebody recently mused that India will be like Africa but for the wonderful Brahmins. So, if we have to return to African mode, we have to leave all the Brahmins behind and would that not be dandy for humanity!!!!

Cheers!

well i really didnt intend that a 'return to african mode' would mean a physical relocation as well.

i dont really hold a brief for all the "wonderful brahmins" but i am certainly of the view that there have been some "wonderful contributions" from everyone including some brahmins.

now if someone would be loathe to admit this, i would think that it really is the other guy's problem.

what do you think prof ji ?

btw, i am also concerned that mu ka who has been priding himself as "tamizh ina thalaivar" may have to change it to "africa ina thalaivar"

 

[Nara]

....these families are exploited by the u.s. middle and upper middle classes. theyprovide a luxury need. at the end of the day, the americans wish they would go back to their countries. except the countries are far away and the imposition of rules lax.

There is a debate going on in the U.S. as to what needs to be done with the 11 million and growing undocumented citizens. GW Bush tried to reform, but was quickly shutdown by his right flank. McCain flip-flopped and now is in favor of the stupid "papers please" law. A climate has been created by the likes of Lou Dobbs, and Fox News nutcases that there is a veritable crime wave along the border states, particularly Arizona. The reported fact belie this hysteria, Phoenix is experiencing the lowest crime rate in a decade. The violence is along the border, on the Mexican side and is fueled by the insatiable appetite for illegal drugs, stupid and outdated US drug laws, and guns illegally imported into Mexico from the U.S. But these are too complex to explain or understand.

Obama is so focused on getting reelected that all his so called reforms starting from Health Care to Wall Street are big give aways to big business. For this, Obama is getting vilified as a Socialist. These tea-party proxies for big business (your Koch comment is a bulls-eye) cry foul, Obama is taking the country down the socialist path. Repeat this lie often enough and people start to think that is indeed the fact. As if to confirm this open secret, Dubya so thoughtfully and eloquently said, "In my line of work you gotta keep repeating things over and over and over again for the truth to sink in, to kinda catapult the propaganda."

A majority of Republicans think Obama is a Muslim, and that is viewed as bad by just about everyone. In this environment, nobody wants to touch Immigration Reform. You are on the mark when you observed the President of US is erroneously called the most powerful person on earth -- he/she may be powerful on account of his ability to wage wars and with a press of a button can destroy cities and countries, but when it comes to legislative action, he is the least powerful among democratically elected leaders of any country there is. The problem is not so much separated powers, the problem is the underlying disproportionality of representation in the US Senate and their arcane rules designed to block just about anything.

Well, the undocumented among us will continue to be exploited, the poor among us will be continued to be exploited, so that the super rich in the U.S. can get even richer. But, with all these faults, I still don't want US to look to an ultra repressive country like Singapore to model social legislation.

Cheers!

 

[Nara]

....what the u.s. has given away in manufacturing, is the ability and skillsets to manufacture goods which makes goods ie capital equipment manufacture.

K, there is a lot that is bad in the way globalization is shaping up, but what you state as loss of skillset is not a worry, IMO. The high value links of this huge supply-chain is still in the U.S. and other western countries. Also, the economic interests are so interlinked, this multilateral dependency may very well turn out to be quite beneficial for everyone. IMO, loosing its preeminence around the world may be the best thing to happen, both for the U.S., and boy, surely for the rest of the world.

Things have a way of working itself out in the long run. More of a worry though, is global climate change and the unwillingness on the part of the powerful to do anything serious about it.

Cheers!

 

[Nara]

Dear Shri KRS, Greetings!

.... Claiming to be an independent in the American context is a very narrow one - I don't subscribe to either party.

I don't think of being independent in the context of the two-party US political system. If you take the establishment Democrats and establishment Republicans, they compete with each other for the so called "center" so fiercely that there indeed is not much room left there.

I view one's political leanings not along an uni-dimensional line between the "left" and the "right". I think of the political sphere in at least three dimensions, (i) domestic economic policy, (ii) domestic social policy, and (iii) foreign policy. In this three dimensional space, there is lot of room for an independent to occupy. But, of course, in the American context the political space gets defined as a straight line, and by so doing, the term "independent" adds no value in understanding a person's POV.

I have done the same myself several times in this Forum. Is expecting the same behavior from our members too much?

I agree with you, it should not be too much to expect our members to state valid facts and present cogent arguments, but often, this is not the case. People kick up great dust storms, can't understand logical fallacies, for many personal anecdotes are proof of any social trend they believe in. That is just the way it is.

We can disagree on philosophy as that involves prioritization. However, I hope you are not saying that one can say that a fact is not a fact and base one's opinion on the non-fact.

What constitutes fact is very elusive and needs a lot of work to fret it out. Most people don't have the time or inclination to do that, they just want to consume fact as though it is milkshake. They just swallow what is fed to them, and then complain the media is left or media is right. Here are some examples of "facts" the Americans believed in.

• At the height of the Iraq war, a large majority of Americans believed as fact that Saddam Hussein was connected to the 9/11 attacks. By that time, even Bush had conceded there was no evidence to support that view.
• Colin Powell presented as fact to the UN that Saddam had WMD, even though the UN inspectors were disputing this, but it passed as fact
• Bush claimed Saddam had purchased yellow cake from Niger even though the source of this piece of "fact" had already discounted it as false.
• The % people believing Obama to be a Chrisitian has sharply gone down from 09. 60% of people who believe he is a Muslim cite media as the source of their belief.
• 52% of Republicans Americans believe Obama is a Muslim

"Fact" for an average person is what appears on TV, or even print, NYT the doyen of elite establishment print media cheerleaded Bush into his Iraq war. The Arizona "papers-please" law has majority support among all Americans, and they all cite crime as one the important reasons for this support. Yet, the crime statistics show that in 2009 violent crimes actually went down in Arizona, and Phoenix is among major cities with the least crime. If I state this people immediately want to label me, I am leftist, socialist, or what not!!!

As long as we keep the masses dumbed down "fact" is anything the rich and powerful say it is.

Cheers!

 

[Nara]

... but i am certainly of the view that there have been some "wonderful contributions" from everyone including some brahmins.

Of course, they were all wonderful people, forget what caste they belonged....

now if someone would be loathe to admit this, i would think that it really is the other guy's problem.

what do you think prof ji ?

Why bring in caste name at all, let us go with the tautology, all good people are good, and bad people are bad. Let us flush caste, brahmin or pariya, down the toilet.

btw, i am also concerned that mu ka who has been priding himself as "tamizh ina thalaivar" may have to change it to "africa ina thalaivar"

You do have a fetish don't you? daaktar kalaingar values his karores more than inam, African or Tamil.

best ....

 

[KRS]

Dear Sri Kunjuppu Ji,
Thank you for your response. I agree with you that the illegal issue has been allowed to fester and not resolved. The Republicans seems to first want to shut down the migration before considering what to do with the estimated 20+ million illegals. Democrats want a comprehensive solution, but they do not want to shut down the border crossing, probably thinking that the influx includes many who will become future democrats. Hence the impasse.

I still employ Mexican born folks for odd jobs around the house as well as periodic cleaning. These are generally very very hard working folks. I do not ask whether they are legal. I pay roughly $20 for cleaning and recently when I employed someone to do a few things around the house, which took 2 hours with 2 folks, I paid $250. In both cases they do not/did not set the price. I did.

My policy always have been to pay more than what they ask for, when it comes to manual labor (my barber, therefore is glad to see me). One, I can afford to do so and second, I think the work is worth it, as I can not do them by myself and so because my time/effort is saved, I pay them what I would pay myself to do the jobs, if I have the inclination/time. Of course doing something like plumbing etc., which require expertise, I pay their price.

I don't understand why anyone would not pay the ordinary labor more than what you have cited in your other posting.

Regards,
KRS

KRS, i would like to take back my broad based comments about southern white racists. to be true,there are racists among all groups, and i think, TBs probably stand high up near the top.

the average white american, i have found, is probably the most open and friendly group in the world - again a broad brush statement,but averaged out, i would like to stick with it.

KRS, i still think, the US has lost out in losing out its manufacturing base. in another post, 'brahmins fight for survival', i posted a linke to a video re singapore prime minister's address on its national day.

i saw only part 1 & 2. very interesting from the viewpoint of contemporary u.s. politics, and i think, also a lesson, on how to better manage the situations, than what the u.s. does.

i also feel, that a large section of the average u.s. family profits from the illegal immigrants. i know of friends, employing these, family as a whole, pay them about $2 an hour, dusk to dawn 6 days a week at home service - all kinds of odd jobs, cooking, cleaning, gardening. when i challenged one of my well to do friends, he just smiled, and said that this was a 'way of life' in the u.s. and (perversely) incidentally if he did not help the mexican family, they would starve in mexico.

as mr. lee of singapore points out, if the illegals all left usa today, the society would break down. this problem started in the 50s and every one of the governments, republican & democrat avoided the issue. now the cows have come home to roost.

as one whose family fortunes are now dependent on the usa, i, from canada, am alarmed. so are my u.s. based friends< a few after nearly thirty five years in the usa have packed up and gone to india< to start again a new life in their late fifties instead of enjoying the fruits of near retirement

 

[nachi naga]

nara,,

these families are exploited by the u.s. middle and upper middle classes. theyprovide a luxury need. at the end of the day, the americans wish they would go back to their countries. except the countries are far away and the imposition of rules lax.

singapore, uae manage migrant workers better, atleast in terms of organizing permits etc. the u.s. and europe apparently appear unable to do this.

k,

americans are humanists at the core.sure illegal immigrants are a big issue,but believe me they are here to stay,and neither republicans or democrats will kick them out.deep down in the heart of every american,know that their forefathers just occupied illegally from native americans owned land,which today is usa.so,americans will not kick latinos in the belly,i quote lationos becoz majority illegal immigrants are from this race.

 

[nachi naga]

president obama is bi-racial and bi-religious at birth.but now he is christian and loves only lord jesus christ as god-period.

 

[KRS]

Dear Sri Kunjuppu Ji,

Yes, it is heart wrenching to read the article with anecdotal examples. This is exactly why the government should establish a job retraining program where they can retrain and position these employees for placement with growth industries, probably at wages higher than what these two have mustered.

Without at least a college education and no high value skills (such as trades - plumber, electrician etc.), it is tough to get higher incomes. When I was in college, the model was to start at a low end job full time, take another job part time with the aim to train in employable fields and then get a middle income job. Seems to me, that model is now gone.

Most of the jobs eliminated in manufacturing was because of steady productivity improvements through automation etc. And the core knowledge definitely have not left. I am with Prof. Nara - globalization has it's issues, even though he and I would disagree on which, but in general, outsourcing is not an issue for knowledge lost.

America could not afford many aircraft makers, simply because it is a huge capital oriented business and the Europeans were just becoming too big and were beating all of Lockeed, McDonnel Douglas and Boing. So they consolidated and now are leading again. Theses are all the results of vigorous competition, which is good.

Capital tools market is a different story. While America still leads in certain segments, I think they are #7 in the aggregate market, with Japan and Germany neck and neck. Again, the revolutions in this industry that have turned the industry topsy turvy have come from the USA since the 70s. First the digitization and then the PC integration. The third wave is also coming with internet soon. Even though USA ranks #7 in terms of annual output, the industry is very vigorous and alive here. For example, do you know that many Japanese companies have set up shop here, with local partnerships?

Regarding ship building, yes, South Korea is leading in making the huge passenger ships, but the US Navy is by and far the most advanced ship builder in the world.

With globalization involving nowadays, no one knows which company owns who and the intricacies of partnerships and competition sometimes with the same company, I am not too worried about losing some manufacturing knowhow to globalization and/or outsourcing. These concerns were valid when the markets were insular by country and there was no WTO. Things have changed.

Regards,
KRS

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/09/01/us/01jobs.html?_r=1&hpw

nara, KRS,

the above article portrays some elements of what i am talking about.

what the u.s. has given away in manufacturing, is the ability and skillsets to manufacture goods which makes goods ie capital equipment manufacture.

i agree, that no one cares if your safety pin or nail hammer comes from china. but when your deep sea rigs come from singapore, which has no oil or deep sea in the first place, when the molds and dies for your car factories come from germany, the robots come from japan, i think, it is time that an average american started worrying.

because, the true strength of manufacturing is not necessarily producing the end product, but the product to produce the end product. for example: hyundai has a cutting edge car factory in chennai - all the machines to make those cars came from korea. THAT mattered. it does not matter if the cars are made in chennai or the usa.

i feel that i am not getting across right in my emphasis. these are knowledge based heavy industries. germany, japan, korea, singapore, china excel. have you seen website info of those humungous shipyards of hyundai? the u.s. had such shipyards which won world war 2. where did they all go? it ended up in japan.

the u.s. had 6 aircraft companies. now only one makes passenger aircraft. not sure if wall street is the villain. this constant emphasis on profit making and increasing every financial period is a killer for long term planning, thinking and taking risks.

 

[KRS]

Dear Sri suresoo Ji,
I don't remember wherefrom I quoted, but I usually quote from any source that have common sense analysis based on data and facts. Also I don't have a tweeter a/c. Don't know how you were able to tweet?

Polls have consistently shown that about 31% of republicans(about 15% democrats) hold the view that Obama was not / might not have born in US. Please look at the last of my posting below on the reasons why people think so. If you filter out the ignorant, the uninformed and the stupid, you are probably going to end up with a small percentage who believe this garbage despite the facts, yes they are rednecks! From both sides as well as independents as well:
ABC/WP birther poll: More of the same - Brendan Nyhan
Birther movement vanishes in puff of smoke, poll says | Obama Conspiracy Theories
'Birthers,' Polls and Public Ignorance - NYTimes.com

Regards,
KRS

Dear KRS Ji,
You quoted "The New Ledger" to discount Thomas Friedman, hence i tweeted......
The Spectrum you hold is your choice and i do not want to question that.

Many times the data itself is skewed and the facts derived from that data is mired.


This news source says 41% of R's think he is probably not a citizen. In your words it looks like there are too many rednecks on the surface of the free world!!
or maybe the data is skewed.

thanks,

 

[KRS]

Dear Professor Nara Ji,

On your posting to Sri Kunjuppu Ji, you have said,
"These tea-party proxies for big business (your Koch comment is a bulls-eye) cry foul,"

May I ask you from where you are getting the substantiation to allege this?

Have you read one of the web articles I have cited above in a response to Sri Kunjuppu Ji, about the Koch affair. Would appreciate your comment. Thanks.

Regards,
KRS

 

[KRS]

Dear Professor Ji,
My comments in 'blue' below:

Dear Shri KRS, Greetings!

I don't think of being independent in the context of the two-party US political system. If you take the establishment Democrats and establishment Republicans, they compete with each other for the so called "center" so fiercely that there indeed is not much room left there.
I definitely not in the 'center'. I am an idependent in terms of my thought analysis, which is different from being in the 'center'

I view one's political leanings not along an uni-dimensional line between the "left" and the "right". I think of the political sphere in at least three dimensions, (i) domestic economic policy, (ii) domestic social policy, and (iii) foreign policy. In this three dimensional space, there is lot of room for an independent to occupy. But, of course, in the American context the political space gets defined as a straight line, and by so doing, the term "independent" adds no value in understanding a person's POV.
Only if you follow a line! I do not. I don't belong to any party, group, ideology. I analyze on my own every issue and make my opinion based on facts, data, common sense. I thought this is where most of the small percentage of 'independents' fit in.

I agree with you, it should not be too much to expect our members to state valid facts and present cogent arguments, but often, this is not the case. People kick up great dust storms, can't understand logical fallacies, for many personal anecdotes are proof of any social trend they believe in. That is just the way it is.
I agree. Let me also one more dimension usually brought in. Emotion.

What constitutes fact is very elusive and needs a lot of work to fret it out. Most people don't have the time or inclination to do that, they just want to consume fact as though it is milkshake. They just swallow what is fed to them, and then complain the media is left or media is right. Here are some examples of "facts" the Americans believed in.
I see more and more the loss of critical thinking. And more importantly most of them are so busy, they have no time.

• At the height of the Iraq war, a large majority of Americans believed as fact that Saddam Hussein was connected to the 9/11 attacks. By that time, even Bush had conceded there was no evidence to support that view.
  True.
• Colin Powell presented as fact to the UN that Saddam had WMD, even though the UN inspectors were disputing this, but it passed as fact
• Bush claimed Saddam had purchased yellow cake from Niger even though the source of this piece of "fact" had already discounted it as false.
  This is always cited to say that Bush lied. My common sense thinking says that the US would not have sent Collin Powell to risk his reputation to present what he did while knowing it was false. Please read this post analysis of the incident and tell me what you think:
  FactCheck.org: Bush's "16 Words" on Iraq & Uranium: He May Have Been Wrong But He Wasn't Lying
  
• The % people believing Obama to be a Chrisitian has sharply gone down from 09. 60% of people who believe he is a Muslim cite media as the source of their belief.
• 52% of Republicans Americans believe Obama is a Muslim

"Fact" for an average person is what appears on TV, or even print, NYT the doyen of elite establishment print media cheerleaded Bush into his Iraq war. The Arizona "papers-please" law has majority support among all Americans, and they all cite crime as one the important reasons for this support. Yet, the crime statistics show that in 2009 violent crimes actually went down in Arizona, and Phoenix is among major cities with the least crime. If I state this people immediately want to label me, I am leftist, socialist, or what not!!!
Yes, the crime citation in Arizona is anecdotal from barely neutral parties. When a popular rancher was murdered, the people living near the border, who are probably ranchers, probably said 'enough' and put pressure. But at the same time, there is a lots of misrepresentation of the law from many, including the administration. In my opinion, even the President has some things on the subject, which are not true.

As long as we keep the masses dumbed down "fact" is anything the rich and powerful say it is.

Cheers!

Regards,
KRS

 

[aramakrishnan1]

In this forum, there were few instances when someone raised valuable issues which affect the society, but they had some political touch. In all those instances, the moderators shot down such issues saying Politics should not be discussed here. But I see 5 pages of Politics only in this particular post. Is it allowed only to talk of US politics and not Indian politics ? I request every one to be fair to have wide open discussions. Everyone has leanings of various degrees to various political ideologies, but we cannot shot down messages when it comes to social issues. I do not have examples to quote as all such messages are deleted in the forum. Everyone has a power to determine the fate of the country in the form of vote and is it not wise to have a well moderated discussion on indian politics too ? At least social issues with political connections should be allowed to be discussed.
I thought it is right to raise this point, but if this is against the rules of this forum, I wish to withdraw this post immediately.

 

[sangom]

In this forum, there were few instances when someone raised valuable issues which affect the society, but they had some political touch. In all those instances, the moderators shot down such issues saying Politics should not be discussed here. But I see 5 pages of Politics only in this particular post. Is it allowed only to talk of US politics and not Indian politics ? I request every one to be fair to have wide open discussions. Everyone has leanings of various degrees to various political ideologies, but we cannot shot down messages when it comes to social issues. I do not have examples to quote as all such messages are deleted in the forum. Everyone has a power to determine the fate of the country in the form of vote and is it not wise to have a well moderated discussion on indian politics too ? At least social issues with political connections should be allowed to be discussed.
I thought it is right to raise this point, but if this is against the rules of this forum, I wish to withdraw this post immediately.

Shri Ramakrishnan,

I agree that your observation is correct, but I feel that the discussion of US politics is being allowed freely because it does not concern us directly and such discussions will not give any "label" to this forum in terms of the politics in India. So, why not we tolerate the political goings on in US or any other country being discussed here?