In defence of the week-end/wannabe Brahmins.

[Yamaka]

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Dear Yamaka,

Orthodoxy and superstition are two different concepts. Those who are orthodox need not be superstitious and those who are superstitious need not be orthodox. You are confused and hence are mixing up these two.

In the case of the Chennai murder that you refer to, the suspect is an Engineer in the Electricity Board who had the benefit of modern education. No orthodoxy tells you to murder your children if they marry against your advice. In the Chennai case it was possessiveness and casteist fervour which are the reason for the crime. Orthodoxy has nothing to do with this. Even the dictionary definition of the word orthodox is - conforming to established doctrine in religion/holding conventional belief.There is no conventional belief/established doctrine that killing is the solution for marrying outside one's caste.If the father of the girl belongs to Hindu religion, he can never claim that the religion required him to commit the crime. So it was the casteist feeling you were talking about and not the orthodoxy nor the religion.

I have not read the confessions of that Ananda. But I have heard from friends that it is an unfortunate/illadvised but inevitable political response by some elements in the fringe to the relentless proselytisation pressure piling up on the religion. The AK-47 that I mentioned in my post was just to drive home a point with the help of an imagery.

I am surprised that you say this. Orthodox never blame God for anything. All orthodox are not living a wretched life. Majority of them may be economically poor but are contented. Every one is reposible for what he has and what he does not have. Orthodox are no exception to this general rule. If I notice a certain amount of arrogance and contempt in your observation that most of the orthodox have poor skills, poor behavior suffering at the bottom of the economic ladder I think most of the members here would agree with me. Please keep your prejudices to yourself. Only good possessions are to be flaunted.

Dear Raju:

1. In the practical world, religious orthodoxy and superstition are nearly the same. Maybe, for you they are quite different! Fine....

2. In India nearly 3/4 of the population is dirt poor - making less than Rs.150 a day. Most of these people are following some religious orthodoxy (Hinduism, Islam, Christianity or other religion) - I repeat some form of superstition in their everyday lives.

Most of these people instead of improving their skills and behavior are blaming their "Gods" for their wretched lives, IMO. Because they have been brainwashed by the organized religions to think that way. Hence, I believe, religions and the concept of "God" has destroyed societies... nay keep destroying people, IMHO...

Religions told the hapless people, "You keep praying God Almighty to give all riches to you... and boom you will get them..". If someone believes in this dictates, I say this person is superstitious, which will sooner or later drive him/her to poor house... Majority of Indians are superstitious, I dare say.

The key is improving skills and having good behavior that would lead to prosperity... not praying some non-existent Gods, IMO.

3. Since you have the right to talk about Taliban and AK47 imagery, I have the right to define superstition and religious orthodoxy...

Quit preaching to the world...

 

[ShivKC]

Dear Raju:



2. In India nearly 3/4 of the population is dirt poor - making less than Rs.150 a day. Most of these people are following some religious orthodoxy (Hinduism, Islam, Christianity or other religion) - I repeat some form of superstition in their everyday lives.

Most of these people instead of improving their skills and behavior are blaming their "Gods" for their wretched lives, IMO. Because they have been brainwashed by the organized religions to think that way. Hence, I believe, religions and the concept of "God" has destroyed societies... nay keep destroying people, IMHO...

d...

by any standards this logic is wrong. just by taking india as a bench mark is not right, should have taken it globally. to validate the merits of religion, one shouldnt be taking narendra modi/jihadis/christian crusaders alone and try to prove ones point, with a single brush that religion is all bad. and her one has carefully taken india's comparatively poor economy to prove religion as bad, while sitting across the christian atlantic and earning weekly salary in thousands of dollar

the countries where atheists & communists don the place do stand only in the median or even bit lower, when compared to the theist countries.. ie, Us, Europe, S.A, Ausiie (Vs) the RED russia & china..it applies for Human development index & Per capita

chek out this link on UN data

File:UN Human Development Report 2010 1.PNG - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[Yamaka]

Religious Orthodoxy and Standard of Living: A World View

by any standards this logic is wrong. just by taking india as a bench mark is not right, should have taken it globally. to validate the merits of religion, one shouldnt be taking narendra modi/jihadis/christian crusaders alone and try to prove ones point, with a single brush that religion is all bad. and her one has carefully taken india's comparatively poor economy to prove religion as bad, while sitting across the christian atlantic and earning weekly salary in thousands of dollar

the countries where atheists & communists don the place do stand only in the median or even bit lower, when compared to the theist countries.. ie, Us, Europe, S.A, Ausiie (Vs) the RED russia & china..it applies for Human development index & Per capita

chek out this link on UN data

File:UN Human Development Report 2010 1.PNG - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

1. Of the about 6.5 billion people in the world, India has about 1.2 billions. Therefore, it is NOT a tiny proportion. The brush I use is appropriate, IMO.

2. In India, religious orthodoxy plays a key role in everyday life including the politics and policies.

3. China and Russia are largely atheistic (their per capita GDP is far superior to India) and the OECD countries have religion, but it is not of the variety of religious orthodoxy as it is practiced by Modis/Muslims/Christians in India... there is a world of difference here. Understanding this difference is key to my arguments here.

4. Yes, I am sitting across the Atlantic - in a land where religion is for the Bible Belt only (and their Standard of Living is quite lower than the rest of the country), and the religious orthodoxy has minimal, if any, effect in the politics and policies.

Vast majority of Americans are approaching religion as an after-thought, as a minor ritual... not to be taken seriously in their day to day lives. Except some in the Bible Belt...

There are about 5 million People of Indian Origin around the world, living a better life and remit nearly U$50 billions a year home to help the Indian economy... These people have just walked away from the Religious Orthodoxy to make a better bang for their talent....

Where's the problem?

Only when the Religious Orthodoxy recedes into a feeble background noise, India can emerge to be an Advanced Country, IMO..

 

[ShivKC]

1. Of the about 6.5 billion people in the world, India has about 1.2 billions. Therefore, it is NOT a tiny proportion. The brush I use is appropriate, IMO.

2. in India, religious orthodoxy plays a key role in everyday life including the politics and policies.

3. china and russia are largely atheistic (their per capita GDP is far superior to India) and the OECD countries have religion, but it is not of the variety of religious orthodoxy as it is practiced by Modis/Muslims/Christians in India... ..

1)going by the same logic then, majority of the richest men in India must atheists

2) ambanis /infosys /birlas etc are all to an extend religious orthodoxies only.

3) how many % atheists fare well in forbes richest man list?

4) how about the most orthodoxy jews of america & being rich

how did they fare well in money? i think the definition of orthodoxy needs to fixed first

 

[Yamaka]

1)going by the same logic then, majority of the richest men in India must atheists

2) ambanis /infosys /birlas etc are all to an extend religious orthodoxies only.

3) how many % atheists fare well in forbes richest man list?

4) how about the most orthodoxy jews of america & being rich

how did they fare well in money? i think the definition of orthodoxy needs to fixed first

As I said before, in Organization of Economic Co-operation & Development (which has all the advanced democracies in the world) there is religion and God, but their variety is very benign, not the types practiced by the Modis of India or the fundamentalists of Islam or Christianity (in my mind religious fundamentalists = superstitious= religious orthodoxies).

I can understand clearly the Religious Pragmatists like my wife who goes to temple about once a month "to earn some punniyam" to satisfy the historical burdens! lol.

My understanding is Ambanis, Bill Gates, Carlos Slim, Warren Buffets are all either Religious Pragmatists or near Atheists, some may be Naturalists like myself - I believe in Nature and its Majesty, not the God of the Organized Religions.

Here is my picture of a typical Person of Religious Orthodoxy in India: He may follow Hinduism, Islam or Christianity.

His household has a wife, two daughters and a son. He is the only earner. His skills fetch him about Rs. 200 per day; he has religious symbols all over his house; he prays at home constantly and goes to temple/church/mosque very frequently. He and his family wear traditional cloths and all personal symbols of a very religious persona....

He has several thousand rupees in debt at high interest rate. Because he borrows to satisfy his needs... he believes one day he will get rich, thanks to God Almighty.

He prays hard for an improvement in his economic situation... he believes that God is the Most Merciful and Omnipresent and He WILL make his life better soon... one day in the near future... he forces everybody in the family to be very religious and keep praying to earn the favor of the Most Merciful God.. he does so many religious rituals to attract the attention of the God Almighty....

His elder daughters are ready to get married... the youngest son, although, very religious he is not doing well in the school...

He suffers emotional breakdown - he cries...cries.. asks God "Why are you not helping me?... you created me, my family,,, but you just don't care about our lives... how pathetic it is!!"

Finally, the wife comes and says, "It's all our past Karma... we sinned in the previous life.. that's why we have such a wretched life.... God can forgive our sins if we keep praying.... let's spend more time and energy in praying the God Almighty"

And some of the Religious Orthodox people find fault with people of other faiths and their sins for their problems... they engage in riots... killing as many people of other faiths as possible... that's what their Gods instructed them to do! lol

The non-existent God NEVER hears the cries of poor people: these people are poor because they have over-sized family and poor skills.....

Why did this man have so many kids in the first place, and why is he not asking his wife to go to work? Why is he not improving his skill sets?

Religious Orthodoxy!

 

[B.Krishnamurthy]

Dear Shri.Yamaka,
The cat is out of the bag.You are fortunate to have a wife(and that to from a Brahmin Community) who visits temples and prays.
Naturally your wife will not be praying only for herself.Definitely she will be praying for the welfare of your family which include you and your
children.Though I am not an atheist ,I was not in the habit of visiting temples regularly but my wife used to visit all temples and pray for the welfare of our family.
I have observed that a dedicated woman(lifepartner) is behind every successful man.A man succeeds in life only with the active participation,cooperation and involvement of the lady member of the house.For the achievement of your children,Your wife deserves to be praised.Please be kind enough to pass on this message to her.
I agree with your view that only following religion will not yield anything.One has to put in sincere efforts to achieve something in life.
That is what HH Dalai Lama had advised INDIANS to follow the Chinese and put hard work to attain prosperity.

 

[ShivKC]

Here is my picture of a typical Person of Religious Orthodoxy in India: He may follow Hinduism, Islam or Christianity.

he prays at home constantly and goes to temple/church/mosque very frequently. He and his family wear traditional cloths and all personal symbols of a very religious persona..

He prays hard for an improvement in his economic situation... he believes that God is the Most Merciful and Omnipresent and He WILL make his life better soon... one day in the near future... he forces everybody in the family to be very religious and keep praying to earn the favor of the Most Merciful God.. he does so many religious rituals to attract the attention of the God Almighty....

He suffers emotional breakdown - he cries...cries.. asks God "Why are you not helping me?... you created me, my family,,, but you just don't care about our lives... how pathetic it is!!"

Finally, the wife comes and says, "It's all our past Karma... !

firstly, i can sense a slight shift from your stand. i think, now you agree that, globally theists and theist countries are not the cause for poverty, rather by and large they are rich, with the exception of orthodoxy. now you cannot paint religion as a whole for the cause of poverty(Indian's part of discussion is pending), but may have an option left to blame it on Orthodoxy. hope you stick to this summary of your previous post. now i will touch upon Indian case.

first of all your definition of religious orthodoxy is a kinda vicious circle. any person who believes in a religion will follow what it says, and what eg you said is not at all the orthodoxy following , any common man would do by visiting holy place, wearing traditional dress,pray often as his religion demands,does the rituals etc etc..how can you call this meticulous follower of religion as an orthodox?

discussing about India, it has been the richest country for long long years, thats why it has become the target of all the invasions. Hinduism flourished here much before any religion entered americas/europe. orthodoxy prevailed much in a higher note in those days. how can india was flourishing in culture/economy? where the karma influence here?

lets analyse the richest indians.

1)ambani has a temple built inside his 2Bn$ house,and visits thirupathi often in his private jet, and follows his religion edict not only in orthodoxy eg's mentioned by you, but also he is orthodox in his food habits by being pure veg.

2)all the tvs factories has a fairly a big temple inside their factory and the india's hi profile dinner for his marriage of his daughter is served with pure veg.

3) mittals/shiv nadar/birlas must be highly orthodox as per your definition, because majority of the indian riches carry their varna/caste names. carrying caste name(a religious identity too) is the height of orthodoxy right!

4) azim premji may be an exception to orthodoxy

5) all richest jains don't even join the corporate non-veg dinners & stay away from alcohol. the height of following religious edict even in dinner table, but continue to be the richest religious community, among indians.

6) in you eg, some one blamed karma for the cause of poverty, but one failed to understand,that, the same religion has an exclusive Goddess Laskhmi for wealth too.


the confusion now is , to whether attack your point globally or only confine to India?

 

[C RAVI]

Really happy to find post no. 31 and 32...Kudos to you both.

 

[suraju06]

Dear Yamaka,

Quit preaching to the world...

I do not have any gospel truths to preach nor do I have a faithful herd to listen to me. So please rest assured that there is no preaching from my side. If what you say is your idea what I say is my idea. If what you say is your sermon from a pulpit what I say would also be a sermon from the pulpit.

1. In the practical world, religious orthodoxy and superstition are nearly the same. Maybe, for you they are quite different! Fine....

I may be a very modern man working with a very high energy particle accelerator studying high energy particle behavior and yet believe that the number 13 is unlucky and so may not take up a new study on that day. I may be a very orthodox SV and yet may not believe in the effects of navagrahas in my life. Do you see my point here?

2. In India nearly 3/4 of the population is dirt poor - making less than Rs.150 a day. Most of these people are following some religious orthodoxy (Hinduism, Islam, Christianity or other religion) - I repeat some form of superstition in their everyday lives.

If you say they are following some religion or other it will be okay. If you say they are all orthodox, you will be wide off the mark. Please look up the dictionary.

Most of these people instead of improving their skills and behavior are blaming their "Gods" for their wretched lives, IMO. Because they have been brainwashed by the organized religions to think that way. Hence, I believe, religions and the concept of "God" has destroyed societies... nay keep destroying people, IMHO...

From orthodoxy when you jump to concept of God you are escalating and this thread may not be the right one to discuss God. My belief is that it is religion which has helped human beings from becoming a beast 24x7.

Religions told the hapless people, "You keep praying God Almighty to give all riches to you... and boom you will get them..". If someone believes in this dictates, I say this person is superstitious, which will sooner or later drive him/her to poor house... Majority of Indians are superstitious, I dare say.

When you lose everything that you have and are intimidated by the developments wondering what went wrong, religion comes to your rescue and helps you regain some of your lost confidence. It tells you all is not yet lost and like good times bad times will also go. You are able to come to terms with yourself and that is what religion and belief achieves for you. Only if you have gone through it you will know what it is like. When I am able to get hold of myself and make a come back I thank the religion and the belief system not only for showing me what belief in God can do but also for helping me retrieve myself from abyss. I wont wish you go through that kind of an experience to understand religion and God.

The key is improving skills and having good behavior that would lead to prosperity... not praying some non-existent Gods, IMO.

Non-existent God? So sure?

3. Since you have the right to talk about Taliban and AK47 imagery, I have the right to define superstition and religious orthodoxy...

Eureka!! Excellent logic!!

Cheers.

 

[Yamaka]

Dear Shri.Yamaka,
The cat is out of the bag.You are fortunate to have a wife(and that to from a Brahmin Community) who visits temples and prays.
Naturally your wife will not be praying only for herself.Definitely she will be praying for the welfare of your family which include you and your
children.Though I am not an atheist ,I was not in the habit of visiting temples regularly but my wife used to visit all temples and pray for the welfare of our family.
I have observed that a dedicated woman(lifepartner) is behind every successful man.A man succeeds in life only with the active participation,cooperation and involvement of the lady member of the house.For the achievement of your children,Your wife deserves to be praised.Please be kind enough to pass on this message to her.
I agree with your view that only following religion will not yield anything.One has to put in sincere efforts to achieve something in life.
That is what HH Dalai Lama had advised INDIANS to follow the Chinese and put hard work to attain prosperity.

Dear Krish Sir:

I was brought up in a very religious household in the rural Ramanathapuram district. Because of my mother (I was a Mom's Boy till she died of stomach cancer) I used to pray very frequently. But I had lot of doubts. When I was in Madura College, I approached a self anointed Godman to explain to me why we do certain things during prayers.

This supposedly pious popular well respected Godman got very angry for I was asking all sorts of "confusing" questions.. he cursed me "Nee Naasama Povai"... then it occurred to me that all this facade of religiosity is a gimmick, just to control people's mind... I walked away from the Orthodox Religiosity and became a Naturalist..

Yes, my wife is the Rock in our family... she is not following any form of Orthodox Hinduism - she is a pragmatic person....
I am not sure whether any of her "prayers" helped our family, IMO.

I came with $8 in my pocket, and she came here with $20 in her pocket in 1980 to Chicago...our family has done very well: we could send our daughter to Cornell U and to Medical School and our son to Stanford U paying nearly $50K per year per person.

Our son graduated last week with a BS Honors with Distinction, and was only one of 8 kids honored by Stanford for Outstanding Academic Excellence AND dedicated Public Service.

I believe none of this is due to God or my wife's once a month brief visit to the Meenakshi Temple near Houston! She does it to satisfy the need for historical continuity - just a trivial tradition! Lol

It's all possible because of hard work and hard planning and execution - asserting the Free Will that Nature has given us...

I still believe that Religious Orthodoxy is a serious impediment in India and other under developed countries like Pakistan and Indonesia.

Cheers.

ps. I will inform my wife of your message!

 

[ShivKC]

Dear Krish Sir:


I believe none of this is due to God or my wife's once a month brief visit to the Meenakshi Temple near Houston! She does it to satisfy the need for historical continuity - just a trivial tradition! Lol

alright.. you dont believe in god, and i have no issues. but whats the purpose or motive of you, hanging out here in this forum which is essentially focused and packed with the prime upholders of hindu religious traditions and god head?

if i claim here that, its that same God whom i believe, and whom you disclaim,had forced you to hang out here ! whats your take on this and how are you going to rebut my claim.

also awaiting your reply to my previous post

 

[Yamaka]

alright.. you dont believe in god, and i have no issues. but whats the purpose or motive of you, hanging out here in this forum which is essentially focused and packed with the prime upholders of hindu religious traditions and god head?

if i claim here that, its that same God whom i believe, and whom you disclaim,had forced you to hang out here ! whats your take on this and how are you going to rebut my claim.

also awaiting your reply to my previous post

1. Praveen, the owner. has said several times this: "This site is for Tamil Brahmins and OTHERS" to talk about issues concerning Tamils and Brahmins and others in TN" -- Clearly, you are not reading it right!

2. I have said it clearly that in my dictionary,

Religious Orthodoxy = Superstition which is a practice of a BELIEF that cannot be explained by simple reasoning.

Religion is a matter of a BELIEF system, mostly created by MEN to manipulate the unsuspecting masses, IMO.

Religions have created their Almighty Gods that the unsuspecting masses follow to nowhere to their utter frustration, IMO!!

Where is the problem in my pov?

 

[kunjuppu]

we could send our daughter to Cornell U and to Medical School and our son to Stanford U paying nearly $50K per year per person.

Our son graduated last week with a BS Honors with Distinction, and was only one of 8 kids honored by Stanford for Outstanding Academic Excellence AND dedicated Public Service.

!

Y,

heartiest congrats to your two children for what they have done.

truly a remarkable acheivement, considering the competition involved.

all the very best for a bright and prosperous future.

 

[ShivKC]

1. Praveen, the owner. has said several times this: "This site is for Tamil Brahmins and OTHERS" to talk about issues concerning Tamils and Brahmins and others in TN" -- Clearly, you are not reading it right!

2. I have said it clearly that in my dictionary,

Religious Orthodoxy = Superstition which is a practice of a BELIEF that cannot be explained by simple reasoning.

Religion is a matter of a BELIEF system, mostly created by MEN to manipulate the unsuspecting masses, IMO.

Religions have created their Almighty Gods that the unsuspecting masses follow to nowhere to their utter frustration, IMO!!

Where is the problem in my pov?

1) i am definitely not questioning your presence here, and i welcome all. i'm only questioning your motive here. what good you gonna do/contribute for the same community, by asking all to exit Hinduism/or any religion, when, our community itself are supposed to be the upholders of the religion, Hinduism?.If praveen agreed with your view alone, then he would have chosen some other domain, but not Tamil Brahmins Forum - Brahmins World, which itself represent hinduism by default.

how good your ideas would be right for the mission statement of Praveen, which infers, all religions are bad, and hinduism is bad, which infers TB's are bad? Whats your purpose here.

2)Haven't got a convincing reply to my post #32

 

[Nara]

.... Whats your purpose here.

ShivKC, since you are now asking Yamaka this question I would like to go back to a pending issue with you. Please read this post of mine http://www.tamilbrahmins.com/genera...ristian-tug-war-over-nepal-s-2.html#post76310.

I ended that post with the following.

I request members to keep all this in mind the next time ShivKC makes a post. Please remember, there is a very good chance he is a dishonest person.

​

My offer to apologize to ShivKC still stands, let him state without any duplicity that for him Jesus is not Christ, let him say in as many words, "I don't take Jesus Christ as my savior" and put his name to it.

Cheers!

 

[ShivKC]

ShivKC, since you are now asking Yamaka this question I would like to go back to a pending issue with you. Please read this post of mine http://www.tamilbrahmins.com/genera...ristian-tug-war-over-nepal-s-2.html#post76310.

I ended that post with the following.

I request members to keep all this in mind the next time ShivKC makes a post. Please remember, there is a very good chance he is a dishonest person.

​

My offer to apologize to ShivKC still stands, let him state without any duplicity that for him Jesus is not Christ, let him say in as many words, "I don't take Jesus Christ as my savior" and put his name to it.

Cheers!

whenever, you are jacked with a question, you countered with another one. the above mentioned issue was addressed to you clearly, but you branded me other way. I have even offered for verifying my credentials vide post and though PM to moderator, immediately and clarified. hope you have read my subsequent posts few months ago, if so you wouldn't be asking me again. I had savored your apology, long before on that issue. and this time, you are firing behind sh.Yamaka's shoulders.

hope you are not donning the moderators cap here. if you have any issues, pls PM to moderator or praveen, and you will get to know the real pictures. thank you


sir, what if i tell you that sh.yamaka is your proxy!!! both your writing style, ideology, recollecting the past discussions though Yamaka is new here, posting timings, vocabulary gives me an apprehension, though I dont doubt you

 

[Nara]

...hope you are not donning the moderators cap here. if you have any issues, pls PM to moderator or praveen, and you will get to know the real pictures.

ShivKC, don't try to wiggle out again. I don't care who you are or what you believe. Your identity is not what I want, I want your honesty. When you start questioning other members, then you have an obligation to be at least honest how you present yourself here.

Last time you went after another member's identity and that was when I exposed what a dishonest person you really are. You are now doing the same thing with Yamaka and that is why I am reviving the challenge.

You can collect the apology from me only if you state, without any ambiguity, that you don't take Jesus Christ is your savior. Say it ShivKC, what is the hesitation? Why are you unwilling to make a clean statement?

 

[Raghy]

Dear Sri.Nara, Greetings.

I am really confused. What is the point in asking Sri.Shiv to admit to something? What difference does it make? If he/she accepted Jesus as a saviour, does that make him/her a Christian? Or, if he/she declares that he/she does not take Jesus as a saviour, would that make him/her a non-Christian? What is the point? Words are just words.

(I know one Swayam Acharyal, 2nd Theertham in Madhurankan Ramar Temple adding the picture of Jesus Christ with daily pooja kramam). I noticed the exchange between yourself and Sri.Shiv before. I am intervening now, since I personally feel, this point is being streched thin. Secondly, a Christian need not be against Hindu faith. I still remember Mr.Maria Joseph, my Tamil teacher from year 9 to year 11; He used to mesmorise us with his explaining Divya Prabhandam poems and Kamba Ramayanam; he actually brought in 'Bakhti rasam' to the class. We always looked forward for his class. He was born as Catholic, grew up as a Catholic.

I can also remember the Jesuit Catholic priest in the years 7 and 8 who used to explain Devaram and Thirukkural.

Cheers!

 

[Raghy]

Dear Sri.Raju Sir, Greetings.

I refer to your message in post #24 addressed to me, please. In all my messages, I always maintained that I am not targetting one particular comunity. I always mentioned all castes/religions. Although when this thread was started addressing in defence of one group of people in one particular community, my contributions were restricted to addressing any particular community. In the example shown in post #20, the persons happened to a particular community. That's all. Of course, I need not have mentioned the name of the community; I could have stated X-community.

But that does not change my point of views though. ( In fact, I thought, my views are the same as yours when it comes to defending the persons who are criticised both by the orthodox and the 'reformists').

Cheers!

 

[B.Krishnamurthy]

Dear Shri.Yamaka,
I reciprocate the view of Shri.Kunjuppu expressed in post no.38. I am extremely happy to note that your children could achieve something
great and so there is nothing wrong in your feeling elated and any one in your position should be proud.When I mentioned about the
achievement of your children to my son and DIL,they expressed their joy with a proclamation 'WOW' 'AWESOME' which is the normal reaction
of people in the country where you are presently staying.
I was also a 'rebel from hypocratic orthodoxy' in my younger days but was always afraid to express my views openly lest it may offend/hurt some one.Age has mellowed me.With my little experience of staying in different states of India,I always looked for basic honesty and sincerity
which I found lacking in a majority of educated people,but I am able to find lot of such people (who never had the opportunity to study) from the lower strata of people who want to upgrade themselves but lack proper guidance.If the required help and guidance is extended to such persons,they appreciate and express their gratitude.Generally they say you have come as a messenger from God and extending help to us.
I think you have read a poem'Elegy written in a country Church yard' where the poet visits a local churchyard and point out to each grave and says they would have become great men if they had the opportunity at the right time.
I consider myself as one such unfortunate person(in my student days) not to get opportunity to study Engineering but ended up joining
Commerce group in graduation though I was considered as one of the brilliant student and scored high percentage of marks..My father's cousin was the first principal who started BIRLA College of Engineering,Pilani for 20 years from
1946 to 1966 when he retired on superannuation.He was made the first Director and retired after the institution was renamed to the present name.Every summer he used to visit south to get boys from known families for joining the college.He used to visit my house.Perhaps my father must have requested him to extend assistance for my studying Engg in his college and he must have assured my father.When the time came and my father wrote to him for help,we did not get any reply till first week of August.When the reply came advising my father to admit me in B.Sc in local college, the admissions were over and one seat was available in B.com.My father did not want me to loose one year and I joined B.com in ST.Josephs college Tiruchirapalli in August,1951.When the Principal,a German Jesuit father asked me as to why I am coming so late for admission in spite of excellent marks,I had no answer.After graduation I joined the govt of India as a Lower Division clerk.God has been kind enough to give me the strength and guidance in the form of a
Mentor.From the very ordinary position I could go up and I retired as Director(Finance and Accounts) in Govt of India as a senior class I officer from established Central Services..I have a mental satisfaction of helping a few deserving persons to come up in life only through my advice and counseling.
The tendency in human beings is to boast of achievements in normal circumstances when everything goes in their favor
If one gets a katrina or tsunami in their family(I was unfortunate to have one in 1999 the effect of which lasted for roughly 10 years.God forbid,I wish even my worst enemies,if any, should not encounter such unfortunate incidents in their life time.)
At that moment,we have nothing to boast off and we do not like the visit of even our well wishers.We are totally shattered.Faith in Supreme God by whichever name you call it only helps you at that moment.I could learn a bitter lesson in my life from that incident.
Humility and Humbleness always help a person to remain calm and peaceful.

 

[Nara]

I am really confused. What is the point in asking Sri.Shiv to admit to something?

Dear Raghy, there is a history behind it.

As I already stated, I really don't care who ShivKC is or what his beliefs are, religious or otherwise. Some months back he was after a respected member of our forum, hounding her out. It was at that time I wanted to confront him with my suspicion that either he is sapr333 in a different handle, or somebody similar to sapr333, a Christian proselytizer -- not that I am against proselytizing, I am not. But, if my suspicion is true, then that would show that ShivKC is dishonestly presenting himself as someone he is not. Even this wouldn't bother me, except, when he starts to question the identity and intent of other members.

When I confronted him the first time, I offered to apologize if my suspicion was proved wrong, yet, all he did was prevaricate, never taking me on in a forthright manner that one would expect. Then he went away.

Now, probably thinking the issue is forgotten, he has come back. I was ready to leave the sleeping dogs lie. But, once again ShivKC is targeting another member asking him to state the purpose of his participation. This is why I am reviving my challenge. It is very easy to put the issue to rest and collect an apology from me as an icing. Why is he hesitating?

I hope this explains. Once again, I have no care about ShivKC or what he does, if he will stop bullying other members.

Cheers!

 

[Yamaka]

firstly, i can sense a slight shift from your stand. i think, now you agree that, globally theists and theist countries are not the cause for poverty, rather by and large they are rich, with the exception of orthodoxy. now you cannot paint religion as a whole for the cause of poverty(Indian's part of discussion is pending), but may have an option left to blame it on Orthodoxy. hope you stick to this summary of your previous post. now i will touch upon Indian case.

first of all your definition of religious orthodoxy is a kinda vicious circle. any person who believes in a religion will follow what it says, and what eg you said is not at all the orthodoxy following , any common man would do by visiting holy place, wearing traditional dress,pray often as his religion demands,does the rituals etc etc..how can you call this meticulous follower of religion as an orthodox?

discussing about India, it has been the richest country for long long years, thats why it has become the target of all the invasions. Hinduism flourished here much before any religion entered americas/europe. orthodoxy prevailed much in a higher note in those days. how can india was flourishing in culture/economy? where the karma influence here?

lets analyse the richest indians.

1)ambani has a temple built inside his 2Bn$ house,and visits thirupathi often in his private jet, and follows his religion edict not only in orthodoxy eg's mentioned by you, but also he is orthodox in his food habits by being pure veg.

2)all the tvs factories has a fairly a big temple inside their factory and the india's hi profile dinner for his marriage of his daughter is served with pure veg.

3) mittals/shiv nadar/birlas must be highly orthodox as per your definition, because majority of the indian riches carry their varna/caste names. carrying caste name(a religious identity too) is the height of orthodoxy right!

4) azim premji may be an exception to orthodoxy

5) all richest jains don't even join the corporate non-veg dinners & stay away from alcohol. the height of following religious edict even in dinner table, but continue to be the richest religious community, among indians.

6) in you eg, some one blamed karma for the cause of poverty, but one failed to understand,that, the same religion has an exclusive Goddess Laskhmi for wealth too.


the confusion now is , to whether attack your point globally or only confine to India?

Dear ShivKC:

1. First I want to assure you that Mr. Nara is NOT writing for me! Although I agree with most of his views on religion and society, I have difference of opinion on political issue in the US... believe me we are different individuals.

2. Going to your post above,

a. I am talking about 800 million Indians who are trapped inside the orthodoxy of religions in India, while you dwell on Ambanis, tvs, mittals and other business people.

These business people may be "religious" to outside world, but their day to day business practices could be far from the religious ideology they purport to follow or emulate. So, please be careful to carry waters for these Corporates!

Please see Mani Ratnam's "Guru" about Ambani Sr, and how he built his Empire... what the newspaper reporter (Madhavan) felt about it..

You have opted to remove Azim Premji as an exception to the rule.... following that, I want to say that the Birlas, Tatas, TVS and Jains, if they are truly Orthodox Hindus, they are exceptions to the rule that I am talking about...

My prototypical family man that I described is the example of the 800 million Indians who are locked inside the Gates of Hell of Religious Orthodoxy, IMO.

3. You asked about my motive in coming to this site - a very bad question, IMO.

It was just an accident that I came to know of this site - I was to go to tamilo.com to know about what's happening in TN politics, music, movies etc.

Unfortunately (?), my browser opened this site for me! I read the contents, and I liked the Politics and General Discussion Section of it... I entered.... there is no hidden agenda to do anything other than just writing about my POV on politics, religion, economy etc etc.

4. You, Sarma61 and others keep asking why Praveen allows people like myself, M/s Nara, K, Sangom and others who write clearly alternate views on very many topics into this site.... here is my answer, he perhaps is an open minded person who wants "all sorts of views on any subject", and thus the traffic goes up, which is his prime aim of this enterprise!

He knows what exactly he is doing, IMO... you guys want to live in the "Bubble of Brahmin Agraharam" just to hear the echo of your own views!

Too bad, the world has changed a lot... and censorship is NOT an option in this day in age when Arab Spring is everywhere!

Take care.

Y

 

[Yamaka]

"Humility and Humbleness always help a person to remain calm and peaceful."


Dear Krish Sir:

I am very touched by your post...

When I wrote my story, I was jogging in my memory lane as to how I became a firebrand Naturalist, in practice, coming from an Orthodox family in the backwaters of forgotten rural hamlet in Ramnad Dist...and how that Godman cursed me "Nee Nasamaa povai" and how things have changed upside down...

I didn't mean to trumpet my own achievement or my kids.... the "success of my life" was mostly due to simple hard work and good planning that has given me the social, political and economic freedom which I aspired so much in my college days...

Here is a small narration of what happened last week:

In a small group of Stanford students, their families, the Dean and President of Stanford, there were many Indian faces; they were all very happy proud moms and dads - Of the 8 kids in the Interdisciplinary Honors Program, 4 happened to be Indians, and of the 4, three were TBs!!!! Astounding, they were all initially from Trichy/Madurai/Chennai! Voila...

We sat around and talked about how we all struggled to raise the kids - None of them said it was "God's grace, we have achieved what we have" I was just smiling... they all said "Pure hard work and good planning".

President JH asked us as to why we didn't have more kids! He said, "Docs, you could have had half a dozen, at least", with a broad giggle..

We said, "Doc, who has the time? We spent 1-2 h with each kid every day in their school days after a grueling 10 h a day work....during the weekends, we spent several hours for their violin, piano classes and the Spelling Bee, Science Competition etc... we are just worn out in those 13 year of school days"

"We built the strongest foundation so that they can breeze through the University life with a smile"

President JH smiled, and said "Yes, hard work, dedication and sacrifice will payoff one day".

All the parents smiled and ate their sumptuous FREE dinner!

Very many Indians are too humble and too passive in order to remain calm and peaceful, IMO.

Cheers.

Regards.

Y

 

[Yamaka]

Y,

heartiest congrats to your two children for what they have done.

truly a remarkable acheivement, considering the competition involved.

all the very best for a bright and prosperous future.

Dear K:

Thanks... I appreciate it.

Regards

Y

 

[kunjuppu]

shiv,

for what it is worth, i can vouch, that nara and yamaka, are two different people. this is based on the information that i know of both of them.

i think it is good to verify such things, before posting them here. i talk from experience. i used to shoot from the hips, much to my own shame later.

i am quite sure, praveen can atleast vouch, that they log on from different cities.