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Intra human Marriages
- Thread starter goundamani
- Start date
- Status
Not 'Who are we?' but 'IntraHuman Marriages' Thread
The thread in question is 'Intrahuman Marriages' not 'Who are we?' as I mentioned in the previous posting.
Sorry about that.
The thread in question is 'Intrahuman Marriages' not 'Who are we?' as I mentioned in the previous posting.
Sorry about that.
This is a final call for votes from those posters who have contributed to the development of the debate on 'Intra Human Marriages'. Please read my posting #60 on this thread and send me a private message about your decision. The thread is closed for posting until we take a decision.
Results of the voting process:
Close thread: 4 (Kashyap, Mrifan, Mami, Vaylan)
Keep it open: 5 (Goundamani, Hariharan1972, Shanti Brahm, Naras, Lotus_quartz)
Results: The thread will be open for posting shortly. But certain conditions will have to be observed by all posters.
Comments: The number of people who voted to close the thread are almost as many as the number who want it open. We still have a big issue of dissent here.
Posters, please be mindful of my message in post #60 on this thread. We are working toward a COLLECTIVITY. Issues of personal choice are currently NOT A PRIORITY. You may discuss any topic under the sun as long as you are able to establish that it is going to help the building up of our community in some way.
Our community is replete with deviants from traditions. In fact we have so many deviants that we don't know what is norm. It is important to have certain common ideas of community norms so that we can start building our identity around that. While personal freedom is great we feel that at the present time it will not help the survival of our community.
This is a time of crisis for our community (actually it has been so for a long time but has never been recognized as such). All of us scattered across different geographical regions have gotten together despite our busy schedules ONLY to promote unity amongst us. If that principle is not upheld the forum would have lost its purpose and we cannot let that happen.
Please pick topics that bring out constructive solutions about what we can do to help ourselves.
The direction in this thread so far has been a comparison between apples and oranges - there are so many fundamental points of opposition inherent in the topic itself - such as individualism vs. collectivism, western vs. Indian, modernity vs. tradition. These are inherently unresolvable topics and usually resolutions for any of these dilemmas will have to be done on a case-by-case basis. I personally don't see this type of discussion going anywhere. But you have made a choice to keep it open.
So it will be kept open.
I will trust you to steer it toward more productive ends.
Any move, i.e., topic, suggestion or idea that undermines the importance of us as a community will be treated as an open invitation for modertors to intervene and do what they have to do.
Thank you for your votes and patience.
Regards,
Chintana
Close thread: 4 (Kashyap, Mrifan, Mami, Vaylan)
Keep it open: 5 (Goundamani, Hariharan1972, Shanti Brahm, Naras, Lotus_quartz)
Results: The thread will be open for posting shortly. But certain conditions will have to be observed by all posters.
Comments: The number of people who voted to close the thread are almost as many as the number who want it open. We still have a big issue of dissent here.
Posters, please be mindful of my message in post #60 on this thread. We are working toward a COLLECTIVITY. Issues of personal choice are currently NOT A PRIORITY. You may discuss any topic under the sun as long as you are able to establish that it is going to help the building up of our community in some way.
Our community is replete with deviants from traditions. In fact we have so many deviants that we don't know what is norm. It is important to have certain common ideas of community norms so that we can start building our identity around that. While personal freedom is great we feel that at the present time it will not help the survival of our community.
This is a time of crisis for our community (actually it has been so for a long time but has never been recognized as such). All of us scattered across different geographical regions have gotten together despite our busy schedules ONLY to promote unity amongst us. If that principle is not upheld the forum would have lost its purpose and we cannot let that happen.
Please pick topics that bring out constructive solutions about what we can do to help ourselves.
The direction in this thread so far has been a comparison between apples and oranges - there are so many fundamental points of opposition inherent in the topic itself - such as individualism vs. collectivism, western vs. Indian, modernity vs. tradition. These are inherently unresolvable topics and usually resolutions for any of these dilemmas will have to be done on a case-by-case basis. I personally don't see this type of discussion going anywhere. But you have made a choice to keep it open.
So it will be kept open.
I will trust you to steer it toward more productive ends.
Any move, i.e., topic, suggestion or idea that undermines the importance of us as a community will be treated as an open invitation for modertors to intervene and do what they have to do.
Thank you for your votes and patience.
Regards,
Chintana
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I would like to thank the moderators who inspite of their personal views allowed this thread to go on.And people who voted to keep this thred alive,even though none supported my view, they still wanted to give the alternative voice a chance.
Saying all this,actually I dont have the heart to continue aggressive debating in this thread.So i will lie low in this thread,waiting to hear what others have to say.Actually I am interested to hear what sri KRS has to say on this issue.
I posed certain replies to ms.Shanthibrahm,am curious to read her reply.
Interestingly chintana said that we have some major differences like east Vs west, collectivism Vs individualism, tradition Vs modern. Do we? I have always believed that eastern values are more modern than western values, and that indian culture has place for both individualism and collectivism.Infact hinduism is no less individualistic than west.
Saying all this,actually I dont have the heart to continue aggressive debating in this thread.So i will lie low in this thread,waiting to hear what others have to say.Actually I am interested to hear what sri KRS has to say on this issue.
I posed certain replies to ms.Shanthibrahm,am curious to read her reply.
Interestingly chintana said that we have some major differences like east Vs west, collectivism Vs individualism, tradition Vs modern. Do we? I have always believed that eastern values are more modern than western values, and that indian culture has place for both individualism and collectivism.Infact hinduism is no less individualistic than west.
'this Thread Is Also Sacred' (or) How To Counter The Gounder?
SIR- so the gounder is back again-after winning a very close battle. actually it was the gounder's 'own' vote in favour of his 'own' thread which seems to have swung the tide. a very, very close shave for the gounder indeed! i was one of the persons who voted in favour of the gounder & his postings, only on the basis of freedom of speech, even though i do not agree with most of his viewpoints. it is finally clear that this thread will not be closed.
so, from now on how to counter the gounder in future encounters?
SIR- so the gounder is back again-after winning a very close battle. actually it was the gounder's 'own' vote in favour of his 'own' thread which seems to have swung the tide. a very, very close shave for the gounder indeed! i was one of the persons who voted in favour of the gounder & his postings, only on the basis of freedom of speech, even though i do not agree with most of his viewpoints. it is finally clear that this thread will not be closed.
so, from now on how to counter the gounder in future encounters?
Views and counter views
I based my comments on a few of your statements, Goundamani.
For example, you have argued that 'love marriage' is a good thing - this is a matter of individual choice. From what I understood from others' postings they seemed to believe that arranged marriages are at least as good or as bad as 'love' marriages - this happens to be an issue of collectivism - you have an existing set of practices set in motion by a group that you are a part of - you didn't invent the way it is being done.
This is what led me to conclude that there is an individualism vs. collectivism aspect in the discussion.
Inherent in this line of thinking is modernism vs. tradition. Finding one's own partner with or without parents' consent is a relatively modern concept compared to the practice of arranged marriages which has existed for a much longer period of time. Also I distinctly remember one of your statements, 'tradition is a fallacy'.
This led to the inference that there is modernism vs. tradition involved in the discussion.
Your views on attitude toward sexuality - how there must be freedom in sexual practices - is definitely a western idea. Although in India we have adherents of different degrees to sexual purity both among men and women the philosophies expressly advocate self-regulation and discipline and we have several valiant adherents to this concept. More importantly, in India we DON'T have the idea that if you maintain self-control in sexual matters you are somehow effete and incompetent as a man or as a woman. In America especially you have 'prove' yourself through your sexual exploits. In India you 'prove' yourself if you keep away from them. To talk about sexual freedom in our community is not consistent with the values proposed by our philosophers.
This led me to infere that there is Western vs. Indian ideas embedded in your argument.
Most of all I think I was most struck by the reductionism (meaning reducing a complex idea into a very simple one in manner that masks the inherent nuances/complexity in the original idea) in your argument and a gross lack of evidence to support your statement. Mami, I think was one of the first persons to point this out.
You may believe that Eastern values are more modern than Western ideas. But that is not the popular understanding of it. So if you want to use your special meaning you have to state that clearly, upfront to avoid confusion.
All cultures have a place for individualism and collectivism and we have ours. In fact we have been so giving and forgiving toward individualism that we have lost track of what it is that makes us tick as a collective whole. I want to draw attention to the last part of my statement not only because that's what the forum is most interested in but also because I am quite tired of people discussing freedom WITHOUT discussing what kinds of responsibilities it brings.
I based my comments on a few of your statements, Goundamani.
For example, you have argued that 'love marriage' is a good thing - this is a matter of individual choice. From what I understood from others' postings they seemed to believe that arranged marriages are at least as good or as bad as 'love' marriages - this happens to be an issue of collectivism - you have an existing set of practices set in motion by a group that you are a part of - you didn't invent the way it is being done.
This is what led me to conclude that there is an individualism vs. collectivism aspect in the discussion.
Inherent in this line of thinking is modernism vs. tradition. Finding one's own partner with or without parents' consent is a relatively modern concept compared to the practice of arranged marriages which has existed for a much longer period of time. Also I distinctly remember one of your statements, 'tradition is a fallacy'.
This led to the inference that there is modernism vs. tradition involved in the discussion.
Your views on attitude toward sexuality - how there must be freedom in sexual practices - is definitely a western idea. Although in India we have adherents of different degrees to sexual purity both among men and women the philosophies expressly advocate self-regulation and discipline and we have several valiant adherents to this concept. More importantly, in India we DON'T have the idea that if you maintain self-control in sexual matters you are somehow effete and incompetent as a man or as a woman. In America especially you have 'prove' yourself through your sexual exploits. In India you 'prove' yourself if you keep away from them. To talk about sexual freedom in our community is not consistent with the values proposed by our philosophers.
This led me to infere that there is Western vs. Indian ideas embedded in your argument.
Most of all I think I was most struck by the reductionism (meaning reducing a complex idea into a very simple one in manner that masks the inherent nuances/complexity in the original idea) in your argument and a gross lack of evidence to support your statement. Mami, I think was one of the first persons to point this out.
You may believe that Eastern values are more modern than Western ideas. But that is not the popular understanding of it. So if you want to use your special meaning you have to state that clearly, upfront to avoid confusion.
All cultures have a place for individualism and collectivism and we have ours. In fact we have been so giving and forgiving toward individualism that we have lost track of what it is that makes us tick as a collective whole. I want to draw attention to the last part of my statement not only because that's what the forum is most interested in but also because I am quite tired of people discussing freedom WITHOUT discussing what kinds of responsibilities it brings.
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Direction
Naras,
Simply because someone started a thread it does not mean that person cannot be allowed to vote, especially if that person has been a key contributor to the debate.
If we had had a tie, I would have cast the deciding vote.
I cannot comment on the criteria you used to make your decisions. Point is, you were given a chance to act/react to a particular situation and you made a choice. It looks like you are not happy with the choice you made. So probably the lesson for you is to rethink the basis on which you make judgments. I believe every situation in life is a learning experience.
As to your worry about the future direction of the thread, please pay attention to the key idea any person is trying to make in her/his posting. See if you agree with it or not. Ask yourself why. Then ask yourself if you are convinced. If you are, then you are on your way to making a sound argument. Just make sure you write your ideas clearly in ways that are as close to your thougts as possible.
Naras,
Simply because someone started a thread it does not mean that person cannot be allowed to vote, especially if that person has been a key contributor to the debate.
If we had had a tie, I would have cast the deciding vote.
I cannot comment on the criteria you used to make your decisions. Point is, you were given a chance to act/react to a particular situation and you made a choice. It looks like you are not happy with the choice you made. So probably the lesson for you is to rethink the basis on which you make judgments. I believe every situation in life is a learning experience.
As to your worry about the future direction of the thread, please pay attention to the key idea any person is trying to make in her/his posting. See if you agree with it or not. Ask yourself why. Then ask yourself if you are convinced. If you are, then you are on your way to making a sound argument. Just make sure you write your ideas clearly in ways that are as close to your thougts as possible.
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I agree about the individualism and collectivism issue involved here.But I dont think that love marriages are inherent enemies of collectivism.I agree that love marriages certainly destroy collectivism now.But it happens so because love marriage couples are ostracized from society and thus the couple are forced to follow individualism whether they like it or not.If parents,brothers, sisters, uncles and aunts accept love marriages there is no reason why love marriages cannot promote collectivism.If the society accepts "unity in diversity" principle life will be much more smooth for everybody concerned.
I would like to point out that I am not prescribing love marriage for all,but am saying that we should not prevent people who love from getting married.
I disagree that love marriages is something modern.
The first love letter in the recorded history of india was written by rukmini devi to lord krishna.It was an intercaste love marriage.In Ramayana again it was a love marriage between Rama and seetha.Seetha was about to suicide if anybody other than Rama had broken the bow.Murugan and valli is again love marriage.Krishna and radha, love marriage.
Take any of our epics.You will see love being praised and lovers being encouraged by the olden day hindu society.Ganga marrying sandanu was love marriage.Sandanu marrying satyavathi (intercaste) love marriage.Beeshma sending away amba to her lover salvan, is an example of elders honoring love.Nalan marrying damayanthi is again love.Arjuna marrying supathra,alli...everything is love.
In our epics gandharva vivaha was accepted and honored tradition.In tamilnadu men defeated oxen and married the lovers of their choice.If you read thirukural you will see love being hailed by valluvar.In all ancient tamil literatures they talk about love, kalla manam(premarital sex) and indra viza(valentine day of the old).
So I would say that love marrige was the traditional way of our society.Arranged marriages and child marriages became prominent due to muslim invasion of india.
I would say that Indian society of the past was much more open towards sexuality than the current day European and American societies.
Gays and lesbians who were hunted down and punished by abrahamic religions,were accepted without a problem in India.Even in modern day america they dont have certain rights.But not in olden india.There is not a shread of evidence that any indian king punished homosexuals. Many art works in india like kajuraho and ajantha depict love between gays. We even accepted eunuchs and created a seperate god for them and gave them the rights which were not availaible to them in any other western society for a very long time.
The current notion of sexual puritanism prevailing in India, comes from the mindset of abrahamic religions which considered sex as a sin and women as an objects of pleasure.Even today in southern India women of many communities do not cover their upper body.Compare this with middle east where women wear burquah.Only when British pastors started preaching christianity and started educating people did our women (in south) started to cover their upper bodies.After a 1500 year rule of moguls and british we inherited burquah system (mukkadu) from muslims and sexual puritanism from british.
I can quote countless examples from our puranas,epics art and literature for this.Just read vinayaka purana and any other purana.Even in old tamil literature premarital sex before marriage was an accepted norm.
India of the past was much more open than the modern day western society.
many times we make simple things too complicated and that is why we feel that somebody is engaging in reductionism.
I believe that I have done so in my previous paragraphs.Eastern society of the past was much more open and accepted diversity of thoughts and action without hesitation.That is why it was able to survive inspite of 1500 years of islamic rule (which no other civilization was able to whither)
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Chintana, I am responding to your call
Since this thread has been opened against my wish and since I said I have enough facts to show that inter caste marriage propogated here in the garb of intra human marriage is
useless, harmful and junk, and can never remove inequality and only will be harmful to brahmin women, and will have to post them if the thread is kept open, I will keep posting on this.
I will keep posting on my own frequency. But I will never stop posting. I will come at my own leisure and post. Rest assured , every relevant aspect will be covered.
I will respond only to people who can argue well not people who have an anti-brhamin agenda. Because this is essentially a forum for the welfare of the brahmins and I do not want any diversion or dilution in the objective. Again I will respond at my own frequency as I have heavy work and personal life commitments. So if I am not seen for some time , and people start thinking I am gone. They are wrong .
I will be always back. Also remember no matter how much the actual casteists –the anti-brahmin KKK crowd tries its best , I am 100% convinces that marriage within the brahmin community is the best because I have enough real life examples to convince me that.
So far only theory is being discussed here. It even included X and Y symbols. For a minute I was wondering if some maths class was in progress here. It was hilarious to say the least.
I could have laughed uncontrollably forever had reality not stuck me.
Reality was not being discussed here. Not real life. Since I know what is happening in real life , I can never endorse inter-caste marriage even if it is repackaged here as love marriage or Intra-human marriage.
The reason why I say it has been repackaged is because the originator of the thread had posted many times before with only the single agenda of inter-caste marriage . This he has done in a forum of people belonging to a caste different from his. That itself shows the hypocrisy here. A really well-meaning person would first take care of the issues and welfare of his own community. He won’t get into other’s forums and keep harping about these things.
I am here because I care about my community. How much time it would take me to go to other peoples site and do the same in a pseudonym?. I don’t do that precisely because I am a brahmin. If the originator of the thread really means welfare of his community he must post in his community forum. Also since we have had enough postings of his here, he must voluntarily go out and post in other community such as muslim , chrisitian etc forum if he is so interested in advising other community people.
I am sure the above sentences should never be portrayed by vested interests as a personal attack but jus a friendly advise.
Also There is another such intruder in this thread. Atleast 1 more.
Now let me move on.
Chintana,
Since this thread has been opened against my wish and since I said I have enough facts to show that inter caste marriage propogated here in the garb of intra human marriage is
useless, harmful and junk, and can never remove inequality and only will be harmful to brahmin women, and will have to post them if the thread is kept open, I will keep posting on this.
I will keep posting on my own frequency. But I will never stop posting. I will come at my own leisure and post. Rest assured , every relevant aspect will be covered.
I will respond only to people who can argue well not people who have an anti-brhamin agenda. Because this is essentially a forum for the welfare of the brahmins and I do not want any diversion or dilution in the objective. Again I will respond at my own frequency as I have heavy work and personal life commitments. So if I am not seen for some time , and people start thinking I am gone. They are wrong .
I will be always back. Also remember no matter how much the actual casteists –the anti-brahmin KKK crowd tries its best , I am 100% convinces that marriage within the brahmin community is the best because I have enough real life examples to convince me that.
So far only theory is being discussed here. It even included X and Y symbols. For a minute I was wondering if some maths class was in progress here. It was hilarious to say the least.
I could have laughed uncontrollably forever had reality not stuck me.
Reality was not being discussed here. Not real life. Since I know what is happening in real life , I can never endorse inter-caste marriage even if it is repackaged here as love marriage or Intra-human marriage.
The reason why I say it has been repackaged is because the originator of the thread had posted many times before with only the single agenda of inter-caste marriage . This he has done in a forum of people belonging to a caste different from his. That itself shows the hypocrisy here. A really well-meaning person would first take care of the issues and welfare of his own community. He won’t get into other’s forums and keep harping about these things.
I am here because I care about my community. How much time it would take me to go to other peoples site and do the same in a pseudonym?. I don’t do that precisely because I am a brahmin. If the originator of the thread really means welfare of his community he must post in his community forum. Also since we have had enough postings of his here, he must voluntarily go out and post in other community such as muslim , chrisitian etc forum if he is so interested in advising other community people.
I am sure the above sentences should never be portrayed by vested interests as a personal attack but jus a friendly advise.
Also There is another such intruder in this thread. Atleast 1 more.
Now let me move on.
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In reality I am not a stakeholder here. Meaning I neither gain nor lose personally if someone chooses whatever marriage it chooses. Because all my siblings are married.
And I am married and I have only a son and he being smart will choose within the community only and I am sure of that.
I endorse love marriage and it is nothing new for my family. My brothers both had love marriage only. But the smart thing they did in that was that they chose their lovers within our community.
Love marriage happening within the community is always stronger than the rest. I had an arranged marriage. But it is now a love marriage. The main point is all of us have a happy life. Touchwood.
An atttempt is being made here to portray all this talk as to only about love marriage and nothing else. Love marriage need not be forced to happen only outside the caste. Then it is a forced marriage. Worse than an arranged marriage.
When people say that marriage is a personal choice then why should it be forced to happen only outside the caste?
So as I said I endorse both love marriage and arranged marriage happening within brahmin community.
None of my brothers and myself asked for any dowry. Our wives chose us on their own free will. They have a happy relationship with my parents. There is no such thing as wife-breating, dowry, oppression etc etc. We let our wives to choose anything-career or home making. My wife is a homemaker who was working before. Both my sisters-in-law are working in great organizations. So where is the problem here? Jus thappines . Tocuhwood.
We brothers are glad that we married within the community.
Our wives are extremely glad that they made a great , smart , and very personal choice because they have a very happy life.
They did not make the foolish choice of going behind a person from other caste and fall into lifelong misery and horror like the girl called deepa from Chennai had to endure.
Now who is Deepa? She appeared in media (magazines ) and evne TV very recently in Vijay TV . More about her later.
Now all this does not mean we go and harm people from other caste. In fact we all do charity to people belonging to all castes. I am paying for the study of the non-brahmin boy who puts milk packets at home. I am paying for the education for the daughters of my servant maid who is a non-brahmin and whose husband is a drunkard non brahmin reddy guy. Also I give other help to orphanages containing people from different castes.
I am able to do all this because my family life is happy and I don’t have to waste my energy in handling domestic fights and problems.
How did I manage to not have those problems and concentrate on helping others? Only because I happened to marry within my community. This is not true just for me. All my friends from other communities too say the same ot me. My close friends are from kerala nair, from TN naadar, Andhra naidu , and Maharashtra brahmin, rajasthani jat, a person from SC community from MP, a UP muslim and a kerala chrisitian. All have married within their community. All give charity and help people from other community. All have their children growing up healthy.
They are happy that they can preserve their culture at home and help people from other community and walks of life. They are able to do this because they married within their castes-- love and arranged both.
So this is what will result in communal harmony and betterment of the world--being able to be happy at home and being able to help others outside too.
This is the case with all my close cousins too.
So much for happy things in the world.
Having said all this I have to say now touchwood.
So there is in fact no need for me to waste my time posting here. But I do it because I really care about the community and world. and I am sure most of us here do that xcept some.
Now let us move to some other kinds of things in the world now.
Contrast this with the case of my 1-step removed cousin sisters. Both are facing harassment and beatings from their husbands and in-laws. All because they married inter-caste. And so is the case of Deepa.
So who is Deepa? Let us see her real life story now.
And I am married and I have only a son and he being smart will choose within the community only and I am sure of that.
I endorse love marriage and it is nothing new for my family. My brothers both had love marriage only. But the smart thing they did in that was that they chose their lovers within our community.
Love marriage happening within the community is always stronger than the rest. I had an arranged marriage. But it is now a love marriage. The main point is all of us have a happy life. Touchwood.
An atttempt is being made here to portray all this talk as to only about love marriage and nothing else. Love marriage need not be forced to happen only outside the caste. Then it is a forced marriage. Worse than an arranged marriage.
When people say that marriage is a personal choice then why should it be forced to happen only outside the caste?
So as I said I endorse both love marriage and arranged marriage happening within brahmin community.
None of my brothers and myself asked for any dowry. Our wives chose us on their own free will. They have a happy relationship with my parents. There is no such thing as wife-breating, dowry, oppression etc etc. We let our wives to choose anything-career or home making. My wife is a homemaker who was working before. Both my sisters-in-law are working in great organizations. So where is the problem here? Jus thappines . Tocuhwood.
We brothers are glad that we married within the community.
Our wives are extremely glad that they made a great , smart , and very personal choice because they have a very happy life.
They did not make the foolish choice of going behind a person from other caste and fall into lifelong misery and horror like the girl called deepa from Chennai had to endure.
Now who is Deepa? She appeared in media (magazines ) and evne TV very recently in Vijay TV . More about her later.
Now all this does not mean we go and harm people from other caste. In fact we all do charity to people belonging to all castes. I am paying for the study of the non-brahmin boy who puts milk packets at home. I am paying for the education for the daughters of my servant maid who is a non-brahmin and whose husband is a drunkard non brahmin reddy guy. Also I give other help to orphanages containing people from different castes.
I am able to do all this because my family life is happy and I don’t have to waste my energy in handling domestic fights and problems.
How did I manage to not have those problems and concentrate on helping others? Only because I happened to marry within my community. This is not true just for me. All my friends from other communities too say the same ot me. My close friends are from kerala nair, from TN naadar, Andhra naidu , and Maharashtra brahmin, rajasthani jat, a person from SC community from MP, a UP muslim and a kerala chrisitian. All have married within their community. All give charity and help people from other community. All have their children growing up healthy.
They are happy that they can preserve their culture at home and help people from other community and walks of life. They are able to do this because they married within their castes-- love and arranged both.
So this is what will result in communal harmony and betterment of the world--being able to be happy at home and being able to help others outside too.
This is the case with all my close cousins too.
So much for happy things in the world.
Having said all this I have to say now touchwood.
So there is in fact no need for me to waste my time posting here. But I do it because I really care about the community and world. and I am sure most of us here do that xcept some.
Now let us move to some other kinds of things in the world now.
Contrast this with the case of my 1-step removed cousin sisters. Both are facing harassment and beatings from their husbands and in-laws. All because they married inter-caste. And so is the case of Deepa.
So who is Deepa? Let us see her real life story now.
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The story of Deepa
Even two weeks back, if you see kumudam reporter and junior vikatan (on the web or in print), you find the case of a brahmin woman seduced by a dravidian thug and he turned out to be a sex maniac . This had caused untold sufferings to her parents (she being their only child). She is a software engineer. But she fell in love with this guy who was small time tennis coach.
Her story is in kumudam reporter as well as junior vikatan. http://www.kumudam.com/magazine/Reporter/2007-03-11/pg1.php
Since you have to register before you login and since it is in tamil. I am taking pains to give the translation here. The story may be graphic but I had to translate it as was told in the magazine. (So folks sorry if it hurts your sentiments.)
The story as told by herself to media is as follows
She was the only child of an orthodox family (read:brahmin family here. Since the victim is a brahmin the media will not highlight her caste, unlike in the cases where the victims are from other community ) and her father was a scientist in CLRI.
Her parents pampered her with all she wanted. She was interested in engineering. They made her study that in SRM college. She was interested in Tennis. They
enrolled her with this crook working as a tennis coach. He was a non-brahmin. This crook had claimed to have done a degree in law ( we all know the status of law colleges in TN and the kind of people who go there).But this woman let herself be seduced by his touches when she was just 17-18 and fell in “love”.
In her third year of engineering this crook kept on pestering her with demands of marriage.Her parents initially were not sure. Later they gave in to the demands of their only daughter.
This brahmin girl did not see the difference in education and difference in age (he was 13 years older) and of course broad mindedly no difference in castes.
She just fell in love.
The parents had their own duplex house and made the daughter and “son-in-law” stay upstairs. The dude got a real good deal. The wifey became a software engineer earning upto 70 k per month. Hubby was as usual having unorganized labour as a tennis coach.
Within a year he started taking her to parties where he behaved indecently with other females in front of her eyes and let his friends behave indecently with his own wife, saying this is the culture nowadays.
Wifey stopped going to parties with him.
Later they had a baby girl.
Then he started forcing her to do perverted sex activities.
Wifey got suspicious about this and started enquiring more about hime. She then found out this guy had cheated a plus-2 student before and forced her to do unnatural sex attacks. She got divorce from him after giving 5 lakhs to this guy and escaped.
Hearing this the wifey started watching him closely. She found he indulged in sex with all and sundry. When she enquired him, he started beating her and brought women to their own house and had sex with them in front of his wife’s eyes in their own bedroom.
So she applied for a divorce. This fellow’s behaviour became worse and tried to kill her. She escaped and complained to the police and all has come out in the open.
Her parents in their old age have undergone unimaginable sufferings. My heart goes out to them and the woman and her daughter.
This story is one such which has come out. Rest all brahmin women who commit intercaste marriage suffer silently and do not tell it outside because they are ashamed to do that or they cannot stand on their own feet.
Many times like Deepa, they end up as one of the numerous sex partners of their “husband”
In face of so many such mounting evidences, I can never tell my brothers and sisters in the community to go for inter caste marriage.
They can very well go for love marriage or arranged marriage but it is best for them if it is within the brahmin community. That should be their first priority in this.
The originator of the thread talks about putting self interest above society and go for ICM or IHM or whatever.
In reality, by doing ICM or IHM these people in fact are actually sacrificing their personal life and themselves by getting a wretched life for the sake of “communal harmony” (In reality anyway intercaste marriage does not bring communal harmony either).
Best of luck to such "martyrs"!!!
I never wanted to be one such "martyr". Nor would I advise such "martyrdom" to my brothers and sisters in the forum.
Even two weeks back, if you see kumudam reporter and junior vikatan (on the web or in print), you find the case of a brahmin woman seduced by a dravidian thug and he turned out to be a sex maniac . This had caused untold sufferings to her parents (she being their only child). She is a software engineer. But she fell in love with this guy who was small time tennis coach.
Her story is in kumudam reporter as well as junior vikatan. http://www.kumudam.com/magazine/Reporter/2007-03-11/pg1.php
Since you have to register before you login and since it is in tamil. I am taking pains to give the translation here. The story may be graphic but I had to translate it as was told in the magazine. (So folks sorry if it hurts your sentiments.)
The story as told by herself to media is as follows
She was the only child of an orthodox family (read:brahmin family here. Since the victim is a brahmin the media will not highlight her caste, unlike in the cases where the victims are from other community ) and her father was a scientist in CLRI.
Her parents pampered her with all she wanted. She was interested in engineering. They made her study that in SRM college. She was interested in Tennis. They
enrolled her with this crook working as a tennis coach. He was a non-brahmin. This crook had claimed to have done a degree in law ( we all know the status of law colleges in TN and the kind of people who go there).But this woman let herself be seduced by his touches when she was just 17-18 and fell in “love”.
In her third year of engineering this crook kept on pestering her with demands of marriage.Her parents initially were not sure. Later they gave in to the demands of their only daughter.
This brahmin girl did not see the difference in education and difference in age (he was 13 years older) and of course broad mindedly no difference in castes.
She just fell in love.
The parents had their own duplex house and made the daughter and “son-in-law” stay upstairs. The dude got a real good deal. The wifey became a software engineer earning upto 70 k per month. Hubby was as usual having unorganized labour as a tennis coach.
Within a year he started taking her to parties where he behaved indecently with other females in front of her eyes and let his friends behave indecently with his own wife, saying this is the culture nowadays.
Wifey stopped going to parties with him.
Later they had a baby girl.
Then he started forcing her to do perverted sex activities.
Wifey got suspicious about this and started enquiring more about hime. She then found out this guy had cheated a plus-2 student before and forced her to do unnatural sex attacks. She got divorce from him after giving 5 lakhs to this guy and escaped.
Hearing this the wifey started watching him closely. She found he indulged in sex with all and sundry. When she enquired him, he started beating her and brought women to their own house and had sex with them in front of his wife’s eyes in their own bedroom.
So she applied for a divorce. This fellow’s behaviour became worse and tried to kill her. She escaped and complained to the police and all has come out in the open.
Her parents in their old age have undergone unimaginable sufferings. My heart goes out to them and the woman and her daughter.
This story is one such which has come out. Rest all brahmin women who commit intercaste marriage suffer silently and do not tell it outside because they are ashamed to do that or they cannot stand on their own feet.
Many times like Deepa, they end up as one of the numerous sex partners of their “husband”
In face of so many such mounting evidences, I can never tell my brothers and sisters in the community to go for inter caste marriage.
They can very well go for love marriage or arranged marriage but it is best for them if it is within the brahmin community. That should be their first priority in this.
The originator of the thread talks about putting self interest above society and go for ICM or IHM or whatever.
In reality, by doing ICM or IHM these people in fact are actually sacrificing their personal life and themselves by getting a wretched life for the sake of “communal harmony” (In reality anyway intercaste marriage does not bring communal harmony either).
Best of luck to such "martyrs"!!!
I never wanted to be one such "martyr". Nor would I advise such "martyrdom" to my brothers and sisters in the forum.
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Thus I do not see any connection between inter caste marriage and happiness.
On the contrary I have seen more sob stories and horror stories esp for Brahmin women marrying out of caste.
Intercaste marriages can never remove casteism. The govt law makes casteism the outcome of the intercaste marriage because the progeny of a Brahmin male marrying a non Brahmin woman are considered Brahmins for the sake of the reservation policy and discriminated again by reservation. (Thanks Naras for pointing this out before)
So all this talk about ICM removing castes is just the crooked tactic of an EVR dasas interested in decimating brahmin males who are none but the brothers and the fathers of the brahmin women
coveting whom the EVR-dasas run all this insidious agendas.
And these brahmins( I can confidently say a very high percentage compared to other communities--no I am not being biased here--this is a fact ) are those who care so much about the society and people of all the community in the society.
The only way to remove casteism and bring communal harmony is by not having reservations.
So bottomline:
Now people may counter this with their concocted stories, but nothing can convince me better than deepa’s story and so many such stories of poor hapless brahmin women that did ICM.
I am sure that real smart brahmin women too will never be convinced of ICM.
There can be millions of threads and zillions of posts by vested interests but I always make a smart decision taking into account all the long-term possibilities. I am sure that will be the case with real smart brahmin women too. (And this decision not only helps me and my family but all the communities in the world ).
This not the smart-appearing but myopic , merely-political , flashy , and harmful-in-the-long-term decision of ignoring community for all the rest.
But this is the benign , personal decision which is really useful to the society and it is a very smart decision too which delivers results to all the communities in the world.
On the contrary I have seen more sob stories and horror stories esp for Brahmin women marrying out of caste.
Intercaste marriages can never remove casteism. The govt law makes casteism the outcome of the intercaste marriage because the progeny of a Brahmin male marrying a non Brahmin woman are considered Brahmins for the sake of the reservation policy and discriminated again by reservation. (Thanks Naras for pointing this out before)
So all this talk about ICM removing castes is just the crooked tactic of an EVR dasas interested in decimating brahmin males who are none but the brothers and the fathers of the brahmin women
coveting whom the EVR-dasas run all this insidious agendas.
And these brahmins( I can confidently say a very high percentage compared to other communities--no I am not being biased here--this is a fact ) are those who care so much about the society and people of all the community in the society.
The only way to remove casteism and bring communal harmony is by not having reservations.
So bottomline:
Now people may counter this with their concocted stories, but nothing can convince me better than deepa’s story and so many such stories of poor hapless brahmin women that did ICM.
I am sure that real smart brahmin women too will never be convinced of ICM.
There can be millions of threads and zillions of posts by vested interests but I always make a smart decision taking into account all the long-term possibilities. I am sure that will be the case with real smart brahmin women too. (And this decision not only helps me and my family but all the communities in the world ).
This not the smart-appearing but myopic , merely-political , flashy , and harmful-in-the-long-term decision of ignoring community for all the rest.
But this is the benign , personal decision which is really useful to the society and it is a very smart decision too which delivers results to all the communities in the world.
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verdict
The question of my consideration really does not come as I really am not a stakeholder here. Meaning: I do not have any sisters nor a daughter.
So I really am not affected by this. But if I am asked to judge then I can. As all around me know I go always by justice--real justice --not the politician variety.
So with the context of this thread being ICM, I can think about considering a Non Brahmin as a Brahmin only if his family has not used reservation benefits for atleast 3 generations ( Since reservation policy in India and TN has been there for more than 3 generations thus oppressing Brahmins and benefiting non-brahmins).
Among the reserved category, the genuine person will use the benefits he obtained through reservation only for the upliftment of his community rather than use that to get Brahmin women. He would marry a woman from his community to help her and her family come up too instead of marrying a brahmin woman and denying the woman from his community the way to betterment.
A genuine person can pass on the benefits he accrued through reservation to his community only by marrying within the community and not outside. Only that way his community will benefit from him. Also since he marries within his community his personal life will be better and he can help outside community too better.
Once all the communities benefit this way , the world will be peaceful where different communities can co-exist adding to the wide spectrum that is the world.
So basically the NB has to have a history of 3 generations of not using reservation benefits before he could be taken up for considering for what you are saying.
Then I will decide considering the situation then.(becuase reservation would have continued on or maybe by some god's grace would have been rolled back. Let us hope for the best always!)
SO I think it will be about 90 years from now.
He can start doing that now and establish such a record of not using reservation benefits for 3 generations and live a brahminical life.(as you say).
So you can meet me after 90 years on this.
Hope you are clear now
The question of my consideration really does not come as I really am not a stakeholder here. Meaning: I do not have any sisters nor a daughter.
So I really am not affected by this. But if I am asked to judge then I can. As all around me know I go always by justice--real justice --not the politician variety.
So with the context of this thread being ICM, I can think about considering a Non Brahmin as a Brahmin only if his family has not used reservation benefits for atleast 3 generations ( Since reservation policy in India and TN has been there for more than 3 generations thus oppressing Brahmins and benefiting non-brahmins).
Among the reserved category, the genuine person will use the benefits he obtained through reservation only for the upliftment of his community rather than use that to get Brahmin women. He would marry a woman from his community to help her and her family come up too instead of marrying a brahmin woman and denying the woman from his community the way to betterment.
A genuine person can pass on the benefits he accrued through reservation to his community only by marrying within the community and not outside. Only that way his community will benefit from him. Also since he marries within his community his personal life will be better and he can help outside community too better.
Once all the communities benefit this way , the world will be peaceful where different communities can co-exist adding to the wide spectrum that is the world.
So basically the NB has to have a history of 3 generations of not using reservation benefits before he could be taken up for considering for what you are saying.
Then I will decide considering the situation then.(becuase reservation would have continued on or maybe by some god's grace would have been rolled back. Let us hope for the best always!)
SO I think it will be about 90 years from now.
He can start doing that now and establish such a record of not using reservation benefits for 3 generations and live a brahminical life.(as you say).
So you can meet me after 90 years on this.
Hope you are clear now
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Dear Sri Goundamani Ji,
Here is my two cents worth.
Just because one says that love marriage should be the ideal, it is not going to stop the long tradition of arranged marriages within Jatis in India.
All the same, just because one says that the arranged marriage is the best, it is not going to stop people from marrying for love outside of their Jatis.
World has become complex because of the way we live. Both our boys and girls work together nowadys side by side in close proximity, more than ever before and this by itself has contributed to more love marriages in India. But then as Srimathi Shanti_Brahm Ji correctly points out, this does not automatically mean the girls (and boys also) will jump out and marry whomever they want to marry against the wishes of their parents (I think this applies to all Jatis).
We need to deal with the issues for what they are and not what we want them to be. For example, I do not think that the love marriage by itself will eradicate all the Jati issues in India. Vice versa, I do not see the 'ethnic cleansing' as feared by some here. The real issues are, how to support our children who do marry against their family's wishes and get in to trouble. On the flip side, how to support our children who have arranged marriages, but get divorced, especially with kids involved.
Both are big issues and personally I know many who are in these pickles. It is heart breaking to see these instances in India. Again, we need to open our eyes to what is going on today, rather than discuss some theoretical issues. Just my humble opinion.
By the way, I voted to continue this thread, but Sri Chintana Ji must not have added it as I put in in a thread.
Pranams,
KRS
Your point?
So how do you think all your views are contributing to our community's development today?
What is the issue you are singling out as a problem and what is the solution you are proposing?
How is that solution going to help us develop a positive sense of community?
So how do you think all your views are contributing to our community's development today?
What is the issue you are singling out as a problem and what is the solution you are proposing?
How is that solution going to help us develop a positive sense of community?
KRS sir,
Your posts always stress human freedom and that reflected in your vote.The one difference I see from your posts and that of others is that you try to integrate the past with the present.Others refuse the present and try to go back to the past.You try to analyze how the present life makes sense with past values.You try to reform religion by religion and that is why it is a learning experience for me who is a little bit skeptic about organized religions.
As you said, love marrieges on their own will not eradicate jathis.But I believe that in the long run, they can.Minds hardened by casteism can only be opened by love.That doesnt mean that I am advocating it as a remedy for all problems that plague our society.I am also not forcing it on all.How can anyone force love on anybody?
I only stress that people should have an open heart.Elders should really respect the choice of youngsters.It is their world, their future.India is not going to turn upisde down in one day.Not all are going to rush to love marriages even if they get that freedom.I believe that even after a 100 more years, arranged marriages will out number love marriages in India.But hopefully we will become much more open as days go on.
Your posts always stress human freedom and that reflected in your vote.The one difference I see from your posts and that of others is that you try to integrate the past with the present.Others refuse the present and try to go back to the past.You try to analyze how the present life makes sense with past values.You try to reform religion by religion and that is why it is a learning experience for me who is a little bit skeptic about organized religions.
As you said, love marrieges on their own will not eradicate jathis.But I believe that in the long run, they can.Minds hardened by casteism can only be opened by love.That doesnt mean that I am advocating it as a remedy for all problems that plague our society.I am also not forcing it on all.How can anyone force love on anybody?
I only stress that people should have an open heart.Elders should really respect the choice of youngsters.It is their world, their future.India is not going to turn upisde down in one day.Not all are going to rush to love marriages even if they get that freedom.I believe that even after a 100 more years, arranged marriages will out number love marriages in India.But hopefully we will become much more open as days go on.
Chintana,
This is a good question.
How do my views contribute to the development of this community?
For anybody to develop, be it a nation, individual or society they need intropsection.They need to analyze what their current problems are, how did the problems originate, what were the mistakes commited and what went wrong in the past.I have my perspective and views on this.I give this to you all in all my postings.Its up to you to accept it or reject it.
What is the issue that I am singling out as a problem?
I dont think there is "one single issue".I have taken a stand in almost all issues discussed here and have given my perspectives on them.
How is that going to solve the problems of the community?
I believe that the solutions I give will reduce the alienation currently faced by this community.For example when I took a stand against untouchability, which was heatedly debated in other thread, I believe that my stand is more practical and will result in the well being of the community.I believe that the solution put forward by the orthodox in this will only aggravate the current problem.
This is a good question.
How do my views contribute to the development of this community?
For anybody to develop, be it a nation, individual or society they need intropsection.They need to analyze what their current problems are, how did the problems originate, what were the mistakes commited and what went wrong in the past.I have my perspective and views on this.I give this to you all in all my postings.Its up to you to accept it or reject it.
What is the issue that I am singling out as a problem?
I dont think there is "one single issue".I have taken a stand in almost all issues discussed here and have given my perspectives on them.
How is that going to solve the problems of the community?
I believe that the solutions I give will reduce the alienation currently faced by this community.For example when I took a stand against untouchability, which was heatedly debated in other thread, I believe that my stand is more practical and will result in the well being of the community.I believe that the solution put forward by the orthodox in this will only aggravate the current problem.
One more point about my response to Goundamani's argument
Another thing I want to explain is what I mean by tradition. My idea of tradition corresponds to those values given and practiced by currently living older generations. That would be not more than a time period of the last 80 to 100 years. I am referring to traditions currently in practice.
It is useful to bear in mind the time period one is referring to while deciding what corresponds to tradition.
In Vedic times and other older periods they may have had many practices which we don't follow today. That doesn't mean that the notion of traditional practices as they exist in contemporary times are not valid.
To make another very long argument short, for every example of 'love marriage' or gandharva vivaha you provided there are at least as many examples of arranged marriages (are they called Brahma Vivaha?). If Sri Krishna had a 'love' marriage then Kunti had an arranged marriage with Pandu as did Gandhari with Dhridrashtra.
Again, we are running into the same issue - you are looking at only what you want to see. To avoid this problem please focus on exact time periods (because comparisons across time periods have limited validity), exact issue - by stating how it is preventing us from getting united as a community, and put forth probable solutions for it.
Another thing I want to explain is what I mean by tradition. My idea of tradition corresponds to those values given and practiced by currently living older generations. That would be not more than a time period of the last 80 to 100 years. I am referring to traditions currently in practice.
It is useful to bear in mind the time period one is referring to while deciding what corresponds to tradition.
In Vedic times and other older periods they may have had many practices which we don't follow today. That doesn't mean that the notion of traditional practices as they exist in contemporary times are not valid.
To make another very long argument short, for every example of 'love marriage' or gandharva vivaha you provided there are at least as many examples of arranged marriages (are they called Brahma Vivaha?). If Sri Krishna had a 'love' marriage then Kunti had an arranged marriage with Pandu as did Gandhari with Dhridrashtra.
Again, we are running into the same issue - you are looking at only what you want to see. To avoid this problem please focus on exact time periods (because comparisons across time periods have limited validity), exact issue - by stating how it is preventing us from getting united as a community, and put forth probable solutions for it.
fire
Obviously its a personal choice of the persons involved. There is a family ,to which u are accountable . Its not about controlling females. Even males do intercaste marriages. But some kind of lower jobs are considered unacceptable for their sons / daughters irrespective of which caste they belong to.I have heard of love marriages. Two engineers (or well settled people )of different caste have come together(Even many of my distant relatives infact). But upto now I havent heard a well settled person goes with people doing lower end jobs.Equating jobs to caste is unacceptable.For the sake of arguement one can say anything. But ground reality is there. Lets suppose we pick up 'n' random persons how many will say 'I will give my daughter to a person doing lower nature of jobs'? No one.Every one wants to come up.Even toilet cleaning is not lowest job i guess. We hav other jobs also which are legalized in other countries.(Again only in cinema you can see Hero will marry that girls/such boys) Lower end jobs are considered unacceptable to all political parties.Thats why they show them as victims to get seats for others in the caste. Its not based on religion. Its based on the nature of the work. There is a difference between a new modern saloon and old aged saloons. They do their job differently.There is a professionalism in modern things.They know what they have to do and what they don't.
I think there will be a match for any people in arranged marriage also. If you dont want to give dowry , you will get a person . If you dont want to go to work or you want to do work you wil get a person. But our problem is our expectations are more .That creates the problem. Not other issues.
Arranged marriage involves two families accountable. If one's father heard about from others its pretty bad for his son/daughter.They have to answer the family .And this family has to answer the partners family
. Suppose in love marriage one betrays another there is a possibility parents just disown the responsibility. I donno there is anything they know abt the background of the partner before ppl fall in love. He/she can be a gentleman at daytime . He might be a drunkard at night. May be he might be a terrorist...Its risky one. If one wants to risk their life its their choice and their family's choice. Many people doing marriages within their caste .It doesnt mean they all will discriminate based on caste. Similar concept extends to language,religion ,states etc.Preserving caste doesnt mean people are discriminators.
Obviously its a personal choice of the persons involved. There is a family ,to which u are accountable . Its not about controlling females. Even males do intercaste marriages. But some kind of lower jobs are considered unacceptable for their sons / daughters irrespective of which caste they belong to.I have heard of love marriages. Two engineers (or well settled people )of different caste have come together(Even many of my distant relatives infact). But upto now I havent heard a well settled person goes with people doing lower end jobs.Equating jobs to caste is unacceptable.For the sake of arguement one can say anything. But ground reality is there. Lets suppose we pick up 'n' random persons how many will say 'I will give my daughter to a person doing lower nature of jobs'? No one.Every one wants to come up.Even toilet cleaning is not lowest job i guess. We hav other jobs also which are legalized in other countries.(Again only in cinema you can see Hero will marry that girls/such boys) Lower end jobs are considered unacceptable to all political parties.Thats why they show them as victims to get seats for others in the caste. Its not based on religion. Its based on the nature of the work. There is a difference between a new modern saloon and old aged saloons. They do their job differently.There is a professionalism in modern things.They know what they have to do and what they don't.
I think there will be a match for any people in arranged marriage also. If you dont want to give dowry , you will get a person . If you dont want to go to work or you want to do work you wil get a person. But our problem is our expectations are more .That creates the problem. Not other issues.
Arranged marriage involves two families accountable. If one's father heard about from others its pretty bad for his son/daughter.They have to answer the family .And this family has to answer the partners family
. Suppose in love marriage one betrays another there is a possibility parents just disown the responsibility. I donno there is anything they know abt the background of the partner before ppl fall in love. He/she can be a gentleman at daytime . He might be a drunkard at night. May be he might be a terrorist...Its risky one. If one wants to risk their life its their choice and their family's choice. Many people doing marriages within their caste .It doesnt mean they all will discriminate based on caste. Similar concept extends to language,religion ,states etc.Preserving caste doesnt mean people are discriminators.
mine is love marriage
hey dude goundamoney,
listen my marriage is love but (brahimin cum non)
but my parents did demand a bit of it,
but thigs went on well,
dont jump into the conclusion of ALL love marriages R made in heaven.
looks like you are going overboard with every thing Ha ha.
cheers
hey dude goundamoney,
listen my marriage is love but (brahimin cum non)
but my parents did demand a bit of it,
but thigs went on well,
dont jump into the conclusion of ALL love marriages R made in heaven.
looks like you are going overboard with every thing Ha ha.
cheers
Exasperation
Every thread usually has one issue as the main topic. Several components of it evolve as the debate matures.
In other words you NEED to have one single big issue per thread. If you don't you are wasting time, not just yours but every body else's.
In this particular thread you started out a debate by setting up 'love' marriages vs. arranged marriages.
I am asking you where you are going with this discussion and you are pointing me to other points you raised in other threads.
Your stand against untouchability relates to untouchability. I don't know what that was as I did not read that thread; and I probably will not as I don't see how it is relevant to the issue at hand.
Why are you discussing your views on untouchability in the 'Intra human marriages' thread?
Every thread usually has one issue as the main topic. Several components of it evolve as the debate matures.
In other words you NEED to have one single big issue per thread. If you don't you are wasting time, not just yours but every body else's.
In this particular thread you started out a debate by setting up 'love' marriages vs. arranged marriages.
I am asking you where you are going with this discussion and you are pointing me to other points you raised in other threads.
Your stand against untouchability relates to untouchability. I don't know what that was as I did not read that thread; and I probably will not as I don't see how it is relevant to the issue at hand.
Why are you discussing your views on untouchability in the 'Intra human marriages' thread?
chintana said:
I only answered your question.
You asked me
chintana said:
You asked about "all my views", "how they contribute" and "what issue I am singling out as a problem".So i had to explain it with some examples.
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