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Let's try to understand atheism

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Dear Renuka,

As I said I was not aware that Sankara used the terms "lower reality" to describe Saguna brahman. The point I was trying to make is, a reality that is derived from the brahman can be called as lower reality in the common usage of the term "lower".


Fair enough but Lower Brahman is Not Jeevas as per Adi Shankara.
Cos even I was not aware of a classification of Para and Apara Brahman till I read the booklet on Brahmasutra last night.

May be using the term Lower Reality would be a better choice cos Apara Brahman(Lower Brahman) has a very specific meaning.

Since this has been sorted out we can move on the discussion to the next level.
We all learn by mistakes and finding out the truth.
 
Dear Sri Sravna Ji,

Sorry to intrude here and I also saw your curt response to Sri TKS Sir, in a later post.

When we talk about Shankara Acharyals concepte, we need to take care in using correct terms. While Brahman, Ishwara and Jiva are all one and the same, I do not see where the Acharyal made references to 'higher' and 'lower'. By the way, the way you use these terms is one of the reasons we have a schism between a few Advaitins and other Sambradhayams.

If we are to use a metaphysical concept in our discussions, I would hope that we are meticulous in our words, because words carry power to explain the concepts. As you can see, Atheists and others, who do not understand the real concepts of Advaitham as explained by Shakara Acharyal have used 'words' and the meanings they glean from it to attack the philosophy.

I think this is what Sri Tks Ji Sir was attempting to convey.

Again, I am saying this as a friend. Please do not take this wrong.

Regards,
KRS
Dear Shri TKS,

I do not understand what you mean by needing to have a point of reference. The terms lower and higher are relative to each other and this is not inconsistent with the higher reality being the absolute reality. . The usage of the terms "higher" and "lower" in the context is in the way it is normally used in the English language and when referring to the realities I thought it was self explanatory.

I have also clarified explicitly in what sense I used the term lower. When I said I mean lower brahman is jiva I meant I have used the terms interchangeably.
 
Dear Sri Sravna Ji,

Sorry to intrude here and I also saw your curt response to Sri TKS Sir, in a later post.

When we talk about Shankara Acharyals concepte, we need to take care in using correct terms. While Brahman, Ishwara and Jiva are all one and the same, I do not see where the Acharyal made references to 'higher' and 'lower'. By the way, the way you use these terms is one of the reasons we have a schism between a few Advaitins and other Sambradhayams.

If we are to use a metaphysical concept in our discussions, I would hope that we are meticulous in our words, because words carry power to explain the concepts. As you can see, Atheists and others, who do not understand the real concepts of Advaitham as explained by Shakara Acharyal have used 'words' and the meanings they glean from it to attack the philosophy.

I think this is what Sri Tks Ji Sir was attempting to convey.

Again, I am saying this as a friend. Please do not take this wrong.

Regards,
KRS

No problem Shri.KRS Ji. I was wrong to have not been careful in using the terms.
 
Shri Sravna,

As far as I am concerned, as a common man in spirituality and in my quest to understand the life I am living here on this Earth, I find your posts much clear and relevant. I find them very much convincing to my ideas and understanding so far.

I could understand in what context you are using the terms "higher" and "lower" reality. And I agree with you that, while trying to discuss, express, share our views on such metaphysical aspects of this world, usage of certain English words should be taken just as a tool for differentiations. Especially when we are not referring to Vedas as Vedic Scholars and exchanging our understanding of this world and Brahman informally.


This physical world is full of MAYA where everything seem to be real. All the jeevaatmas dwell here and assume to live a realistic life in this real world. Humans with all the given basic instincts and with the presence of all the resources, finds this Earth as the real world of survival and there exists nothing beyond space and time. Neither they could prove satisfactorily to their rational sense nor have any serious need to know if anything exists beyond space and time.

We believe in Brahman as the supreme being beyond description. And we all believe that Brahman is the absolute reality having qualities of omniscient, omnipotent and omnipresent. And all mercy full, to grant enlightenment to the souls that attempts towards overcoming MAYA and work towards liberation.

This physical world of MAYA is perceived as real and humans tend to live a realistic life of accomplishment, as long as Souls are influenced by MAYA.

You and ME as a member here are no different than any other Souls with full influences of MAYA. But, since we all attempt to work our way towards strengthening our spirituality and better understanding of this world and our life, we can well consider that - This physical world of MAYA though appears to be real, it's not so. And since this physical world of MAYA has a great purpose for the souls to fulfill its KARMA, we can not reject this pseudo reality altogether. Thus, I feel, considering this physical world as a Lower Reality while comparing it with the Higher Reality of "ABSOLUTE BLISS"/"BRAHMAN", would be alright.

I would also consider Saguna Brahmans too as a lower reality, having incarnated in this physical world of Maya for the human kind. This Saguna Brahman has more proximity to the Nirguna Brahman. Can say, a close representative of the Nirguna Brahman, to show a path of righteousness and sense of awareness to the souls, to help them work towards negating karmic impacts and towards attaining MOKSHA. Thus having more higher consciousness and more better understanding & control on MAYA, could have a life time here, in this physical world of Maya to guide the souls.

It would be my pleasure if you share any of your thoughts on the above and let me know where I am wrong and if I am right in any way, in my above understanding/perceptions.





 
Sri Sravana -


There is no argument being presented by you. You are simply making things up and it is not possible to have discussions around topic that requires critical thinking & understanding.


If you want to have a conversation around theory of relativity and its application you will be required to fully understand what is taught instead of making things up loosely and make claims. There is no logic or basis for any of your statements.


It is not detail or gist , just confusion and you want to engage atheists with statements like this?


Sorry, I cannot respond anymore ..


Regards
Sorry to butt in here. Feel free to ignore or have it deleted, but I would like to make some observations here, especially after Mr. KRS selectively pulled up Sri Sravana, sparing Sri tks for reasons only known to him.


You quote post #135 for your explanation and claim of logical holes in Sri Sravna's post.
You say:


Dr Renu


Great points indeed!


Even Saguna and Nirguna are not adjectives or attributes to non-dual Brahman.
But could you differentiate between the two then and if they are different, they got to be a difference and could you say which one is 'Higher'? and why?
Actually, there is nothing like non-dual Brahman. All are ulitmately Brahman and hence non dual, so, your quote also can be termed to be of logical holes.
True nature of ourselves is defined by Para Prakrti understanding of which leads to liberation. The Apara Prakrti which is taken as the cause of everything else manifested can lead us away from realization of our nature. In that sense Para Prakriti is viewed as 'Higher' ..Sri Sankara has provided excellent commentaries on these verses
so, you have used the termed 'Higher' here without a reference and arent these relative as well, in the sense that Apara Prakrti is lower.
Why are you finding fault then with what Mr Sravna said:
Therefore the physical world which exists is the lower reality.


Sorry, I cannot respond anymore ..
thats not a good etiquette IMO since I dont see any arguments or a correct intepretation provide by you and the jist of what you say is similar to what Sri Sravna says, but I wonder why Sri KRS lets you get away with such remarks.
 
Hi Everyone here,
I newly joined this site and i saw this post fully. Please someone help me to get clarifications in this issue.

my mom asking me to wear poonol(sacred thread) which brahmins wear at their body. I asked her why ? She said it is religious and we have to wear it. One thing I got confused is that.. In olden Days , People wont wear shirts as now and so they wear that sacred thread on their body to denote that either they are married or unmarried or without father.

Now a days we are wearing shirts so that poonol is no else visible outside. So what is the use of wearing then?? Iam totally confused.. please anyone reply to me through this post or through mail. ([email protected])
 
I noticed some Nastikas stating that they only do not believe Vedas or Upanishads
but they do not rule out the belief or existence of God. If we have an overall outlook, majority
of the Indians are Hindu religion oriented and even if they do not spell out openly or frankly,
they are very comfortable with religious beliefs and customs at home.

Balasubramanian
Ambattur
 
I noticed some Nastikas stating that they only do not believe Vedas or Upanishads
but they do not rule out the belief or existence of God. If we have an overall outlook, majority
of the Indians are Hindu religion oriented and even if they do not spell out openly or frankly,
they are very comfortable with religious beliefs and customs at home.

Balasubramanian
Ambattur

True... and when their kids get married its full traditional Hindu wedding.
But when questioned they will say 'Oh no yaar ..I didnt want to hurt the sentiments of anyone else who might not share my same belief of Atheism"

Its just that deep down inside they are afraid of consequences but outwardly they project a different image.

Some celebrities are known for this sort of behaviour.

The ultimate test would be to push some Atheist off the cliff and you can hear them scream "Narayana Narayana" on the way down.
 
Sorry to butt in here. Feel free to ignore or have it deleted, but I would like to make some observations here, especially after Mr. KRS selectively pulled up Sri Sravana, sparing Sri tks for reasons only known to him.


You quote post #135 for your explanation and claim of logical holes in Sri Sravna's post.
You say:



But could you differentiate between the two then and if they are different, they got to be a difference and could you say which one is 'Higher'? and why?
Actually, there is nothing like non-dual Brahman. All are ulitmately Brahman and hence non dual, so, your quote also can be termed to be of logical holes.

so, you have used the termed 'Higher' here without a reference and arent these relative as well, in the sense that Apara Prakrti is lower.
Why are you finding fault then with what Mr Sravna said:




thats not a good etiquette IMO since I dont see any arguments or a correct intepretation provide by you and the jist of what you say is similar to what Sri Sravna says, but I wonder why Sri KRS lets you get away with such remarks.

Sri Ozone -

Sri KRS Sir is posting in his role as a member & contributor just like Dr Renu did.
If you have something to contribute to the discussion please do.

If you a question based on your understanding of this topic then please post your question.
 
Sri Ozone -

Sri KRS Sir is posting in his role as a member & contributor just like Dr Renu did.
If you have something to contribute to the discussion please do.
Since he has allowed you contribute beyond the discussion, I am hoping he will do that to others as well.

If you a question based on your understanding of this topic then please post your question.
[/QUOTE]
There are a few questions raised. I am looking forward to a reply
 
Shri Sravna,

As far as I am concerned, as a common man in spirituality and in my quest to understand the life I am living here on this Earth, I find your posts much clear and relevant. I find them very much convincing to my ideas and understanding so far.

I could understand in what context you are using the terms "higher" and "lower" reality. And I agree with you that, while trying to discuss, express, share our views on such metaphysical aspects of this world, usage of certain English words should be taken just as a tool for differentiations. Especially when we are not referring to Vedas as Vedic Scholars and exchanging our understanding of this world and Brahman informally.


This physical world is full of MAYA where everything seem to be real. All the jeevaatmas dwell here and assume to live a realistic life in this real world. Humans with all the given basic instincts and with the presence of all the resources, finds this Earth as the real world of survival and there exists nothing beyond space and time. Neither they could prove satisfactorily to their rational sense nor have any serious need to know if anything exists beyond space and time.

We believe in Brahman as the supreme being beyond description. And we all believe that Brahman is the absolute reality having qualities of omniscient, omnipotent and omnipresent. And all mercy full, to grant enlightenment to the souls that attempts towards overcoming MAYA and work towards liberation.

This physical world of MAYA is perceived as real and humans tend to live a realistic life of accomplishment, as long as Souls are influenced by MAYA.

You and ME as a member here are no different than any other Souls with full influences of MAYA. But, since we all attempt to work our way towards strengthening our spirituality and better understanding of this world and our life, we can well consider that - This physical world of MAYA though appears to be real, it's not so. And since this physical world of MAYA has a great purpose for the souls to fulfill its KARMA, we can not reject this pseudo reality altogether. Thus, I feel, considering this physical world as a Lower Reality while comparing it with the Higher Reality of "ABSOLUTE BLISS"/"BRAHMAN", would be alright.

I would also consider Saguna Brahmans too as a lower reality, having incarnated in this physical world of Maya for the human kind. This Saguna Brahman has more proximity to the Nirguna Brahman. Can say, a close representative of the Nirguna Brahman, to show a path of righteousness and sense of awareness to the souls, to help them work towards negating karmic impacts and towards attaining MOKSHA. Thus having more higher consciousness and more better understanding & control on MAYA, could have a life time here, in this physical world of Maya to guide the souls.

It would be my pleasure if you share any of your thoughts on the above and let me know where I am wrong and if I am right in any way, in my above understanding/perceptions.






Dear Ravi,

You have raised a number of fascinating points. Actually the issues regarding maya may be described in a separate thread. I think it is one of the least understood or misunderstood concept. I am looking forward to new and interesting perspectives in the thread and I wish the purist in us not try to stifle any such non traditional views.
 
Sorry to butt in here. Feel free to ignore or have it deleted, but I would like to make some observations here, especially after Mr. KRS selectively pulled up Sri Sravana, sparing Sri tks for reasons only known to him.


You quote post #135 for your explanation and claim of logical holes in Sri Sravna's post.
You say:



But could you differentiate between the two then and if they are different, they got to be a difference and could you say which one is 'Higher'? and why?
Actually, there is nothing like non-dual Brahman. All are ulitmately Brahman and hence non dual, so, your quote also can be termed to be of logical holes.

so, you have used the termed 'Higher' here without a reference and arent these relative as well, in the sense that Apara Prakrti is lower.
Why are you finding fault then with what Mr Sravna said:




thats not a good etiquette IMO since I dont see any arguments or a correct intepretation provide by you and the jist of what you say is similar to what Sri Sravna says, but I wonder why Sri KRS lets you get away with such remarks.

Dear Shri Ozone,

Anyone would welcome constructive criticism. But I normally do not try to spend time on a argument which is fruitless. IMO you win by losing such arguments.
 
Dear Ravi,

You have raised a number of fascinating points. Actually the issues regarding maya may be described in a separate thread. I think it is one of the least understood or misunderstood concept. I am looking forward to new and interesting perspectives in the thread and I wish the purist in us not try to stifle any such non traditional views.


Shri Sravna,

In my post #155, I was attempting to substantiate your notion of lower and higher realities. For that I needed elaboration and had to include MAYA.

Shri Sravna,

I am really wondering how can we reject to accept the physical reality as the lower reality in comparison to the Supreme Reality?

Where is the contradiction here, if we accept this differentiation of lower and higher reality?

Isn't it a very clear and plausible notion, among the Hindu Theists?

Isn't MAYA in this physical world which deludes us in all the ways and the same facilitates the very purpose of survival and negating karmic impacts?

Isn't a KARMA BHOOMI of MAYA (This physical world) is a lower reality of survival against the Higher/Supreme reality of Absolute Bliss/Brahman?

How can the above even be against traditional views?

Kindly help me stand corrected.
 
Dear Ravi,

You misunderstood me. I was only suggesting that we start a new thread on maya and put forth views which are novel but in spirit with our philosophy. I want to air my views on the points that you raised just as you and others would want to air views on that very interesting concept.
 
Dear Sri Ozone Ji,

If you read my post carefully, I was talking about usage of some technical terms with reference to Advaitham, as referenced by Sri TKS Ji Sir.

I posted my view as a Forum member, not as a Moderator. And my intention was not to 'pull up' anyone, especially a person like Sri Sravana Ji, who has been valiantly and patiently contributing to this Forum. His response to me confirms that he has not taken my comment in a wrong way.

I am surprised why you would take it the wrong way. Your points about Sri TKS Ji Sir's post are valid for conversation and there is nothing there I had any personal comments on.

Please feel free to raise the questions you did, but without ascribing any nefarious intention on Sri TKS Ji Sir's part. Any member can terminate any conversation on his/her own volition for any reason. I don't see why you would view it as bad etiquette.

Regards,
KRS

Sorry to butt in here. Feel free to ignore or have it deleted, but I would like to make some observations here, especially after Mr. KRS selectively pulled up Sri Sravana, sparing Sri tks for reasons only known to him.


You quote post #135 for your explanation and claim of logical holes in Sri Sravna's post.
You say:



But could you differentiate between the two then and if they are different, they got to be a difference and could you say which one is 'Higher'? and why?
Actually, there is nothing like non-dual Brahman. All are ulitmately Brahman and hence non dual, so, your quote also can be termed to be of logical holes.

so, you have used the termed 'Higher' here without a reference and arent these relative as well, in the sense that Apara Prakrti is lower.
Why are you finding fault then with what Mr Sravna said:




thats not a good etiquette IMO since I dont see any arguments or a correct intepretation provide by you and the jist of what you say is similar to what Sri Sravna says, but I wonder why Sri KRS lets you get away with such remarks.
 
.

.
There are a few questions raised. I am looking forward to a reply

Please provide your views and understanding first . In that context please ask your questions respectfully to anything I have written.
If I have anything to share I will
 
Please provide your views and understanding first . In that context please ask your questions respectfully to anything I have written.
If I have anything to share I will
This is a rhetoric and a constant prank played if my short stay here is of any indication.
My post is unnecessary if only you could live up to that expectations in your posts.
thank you. I have already explained what I have observed. I think you can begin being respectful in your post by
limiting to your experience and stop short of making judgement about others.
 
Dear Sri Ozone Ji,

If you read my post carefully, I was talking about usage of some technical terms with reference to Advaitham, as referenced by Sri TKS Ji Sir.

I posted my view as a Forum member, not as a Moderator. And my intention was not to 'pull up' anyone, especially a person like Sri Sravana Ji, who has been valiantly and patiently contributing to this Forum. His response to me confirms that he has not taken my comment in a wrong way.

I am surprised why you would take it the wrong way. Your points about Sri TKS Ji Sir's post are valid for conversation and there is nothing there I had any personal comments on.

Please feel free to raise the questions you did, but without ascribing any nefarious intention on Sri TKS Ji Sir's part. Any member can terminate any conversation on his/her own volition for any reason. I don't see why you would view it as bad etiquette.

Regards,
KRS
Dear Sri KRS,
My reaction was based on your comment
" I also saw your curt response to Sri TKS Sir, in a later post." (which I thought was a Moderators pov)
If you had carefully gone into why Sri Sravan made that post, my expectation was that you would also find a need for making a reference to Sri TKS. You say you did not find anything and that is exactly what I was pointing out.

I rest my case.
 
Dear Sri Ozone Ji,

Because you brought up your action based on my specific comment that you took as a Moderator's pov, I have to clarify.

First, as you know, if I am moderating, my comment would have been in 'red' and would have included instructions as to why such a comment is not allowed. Which I did not do.

Secondly, and you know this, even if you thought that it was a Moderator's pov, time and again I have been asking you all to send me a pm, instead of inserting yourself to post comments on any moderation.

Regards,
KRS

Dear Sri KRS,
My reaction was based on your comment
" I also saw your curt response to Sri TKS Sir, in a later post." (which I thought was a Moderators pov)
If you had carefully gone into why Sri Sravan made that post, my expectation was that you would also find a need for making a reference to Sri TKS. You say you did not find anything and that is exactly what I was pointing out.

I rest my case.
 
Dear Brother Nara Ji,

Sorry for the delayed response. However you have touched upon a very important fact. So, I hope you would not mind my response.

Please look at the highlighted statement of yours below, and ask yourself. Does any or all of it applies to you at all, in the way you have been addressing Theism?

The points you have 'bulletized' are to prove a point. What you assert as 'true' has an equal and opposite side that can also be termed as 'true'. The fact is that both sides are talking about things that are not easily 'proved' today. Even assigning any statistical probabilities to the outcome are not based on any conclusive evidence.

Yet, Theists are called irrational, illogical based not on any concrete proof, but on the inability on your part to see the difference between Metaphysics and modern Science. Yet, when I point this out, you say that it is not conducive to any reasoned discussion!

Let me point out one fundamental 'truth' that Atheists throw around and obfuscate. It is the 'Origin of Species'. It is said that this theory is as solid as the theory of Sun being at the center of our system. And so if one does not believe in 'Darwin's theory', one is a loon, such as many Christians.

This misleads. The fact is that organisms came from other organisms and species came in to existence as evidenced by the fossil records. Even many Popes agree to this. But the very important theory proposed by Darwin on the transitional evidence from species to species is not yet proved. 'The missing links' are yet to be found in any consistent way.

This is the issue that lends to the possibility of the 'creation' theory. In the absence of any scientific explanation and proof, one can not dismiss the creation idea as wholly humbug.

Please read these:
http://emp.byui.edu/marrottr/Evolution-Stark.pdf
http://www.ankerberg.com/Articles/_PDFArchives/science/SC1W0104A.pdf

As long as above issues are present without any adequate scientific evidence to explain the jumps in to new species, I do not think that the Atheists have any business calling the Theists' position as unscientific. In fact the first paper above beautifully traces the history of Atheism laying claim to Darwin's theory to attack Theists.

I don't ask you to believe in Theism. But at least you can base your conclusions based on clear cut scientific proof, instead of claiming that you do so. Nothing you have said so far negates anything that the Theists believe as false. Thanks.

Regards,
KRS


Oh brother, I am shocked, shocked I say, I have been under the impression you took everything I say as the absolute truth and nothing but the truth, all this while!!!!! :) :)

Let us now look at some of the undeniable truths that are based on incontrovertible evidence littered generously throughout your post.

Well, there was more, I will stop with this.

When sweeping statements are made about assumptions, agenda, attitude, maturity, etc., then the decibel level gets too high for a reasonable discussion.

Anyway, let me explain why I even made a post in this thread. I noticed that an army was after dear Y. I wanted to express my support and encouragement to him, not on the basis of tribal solidarity, but because I broadly agree with his views, though we have our own disagreements on some details. This the reason I addressed my post to Y.

Cheers!
 
...Please look at the highlighted statement of yours below, and ask yourself. Does any or all of it applies to you at all, in the way you have been addressing Theism?

No dear brother, this is not true, I have not freely thrown around epithets against anybody. If I think something is irrational I try to provide reasonable argument for it. If that argument is not acceptable, then engage me, but that is not what happens. I can't accept this false equivalency between the two sides. Just look at the posts that get made here -- some say those who say they are atheists don't even know what atheism is, and some others say atheism is also a religion, and yet others say atheists are arrogant egotists destined to commit evil, and on and on. If you think there is an equivalency between the two POVs expressed, so be it, but it is simply not so.

As I said earlier, it does not really matter to me whether the theists understand atheism or not, but it is really hilarious to see the kind of statements that get made. Heck, these guys make me laugh with the kind of self contradictory statements they make about their own theism. I have no interest in this discussion as I see no prospect for a reasoned discussion.

As I said earlier, I just wanted to express my support to dear Y, and I addressed my post to him only, that is all, please do not make a federal case out of this.

Cheers!
 
This is a rhetoric and a constant prank played if my short stay here is of any indication.
My post is unnecessary if only you could live up to that expectations in your posts.
thank you. I have already explained what I have observed. I think you can begin being respectful in your post by
limiting to your experience and stop short of making judgement about others.

All who are following this thread

I did not have time during the week to respond. I follow a few thread here and there but this is the nth time I see a response of this kind from this poster. In fact it has become a pattern. Last time I remember a direct attack was moderated out so the posts of this kind have become more smart :-)

For one I have no idea what this poster is talking about and this post taken with previous responses raising questions about motives of others and myself are seemingly immature to me. And second, I did not want to dignify such posts with a direct response anymore. I did not want to let this go either because such approach to debates may continue destroying what could be a healthy discussion.

It is one of the oldest tricks in politically leaning people to attack a person with bad intent if they do not know how to objectively engage while sharing own views with courage. Enough said and I do not want to waste my time or your time on such posts.

In my limited attempt to learn I find that these words 'Brahman', Jiva have very precise meanings and they all fit together like pieces of puzzle if only I can recognize and overcome my preconceived notions. My teacher usually answers my questions by first trying to understand what my assumptions are. If something is explainable then I will get an answer. Sometime I may not have the prerequisite knowledge or mental maturity to understand a concept . In which case more effort will be needed to get prepared.

I also do not think it is easy to explain or understand how Brahman (as alluded to in Nasadiya Suktham) can be a cause of all these things we perceive as world. How can one add qualifications like Sathyam Brahma. Jnanam Brahma etc (as it occurs in Taithriya Upanishads) when it is non-dualy one. How can we talk about Nirguna and Saguna Brahman as two entities .. etc Such topics cannot be understood in a forum discussion in my view but one can share a few thoughts that can motivate us to look for more info elsewhere.

Given that these topics are seemingly remote, in my experience I have come across different kinds of responses.

1. Make something up in our mind so it all hangs together because of our reverence to such topics. But such people may run into logical issues with their practical experience and may not acknowledge such issues and live in a mental world where things seem consistent. Though they may not know much about traditions of Hinduism but out of respect they buy into the concepts as true
2. Reject all these as not making sense. After all why 'believe' this any more than theory advanced in say Dienetics
3. There are a few people due to upbringing know lot of rituals and somehow tie these concepts to those ideas. They may have belief systems that can border on superstitions that may be detrimental to others.
4. Or they may neither reject nor accept apriori and are willing to spend the time and effort it takes to learn.

I am keen to engage with people who are in the category 4 because I have an opportunity to learn. That could be an 'atheist' or theist.
So far the few posts representing atheist pov here seem to worship Science but do not consistently embrace logic & frameworks or use scientific approach.

I have no desire to engage with someone in category 3 ..
 
Since this thread has the title: "Let us understand atheism" let me do justice to it having contributed to diversion of the topic ..

Here are the word of an Indian patriot, Bhagat Singh who was hanged on March 23, 1931.

(By the way, in my view it is possible to answer the questions raised in this note without being theist or atheist)
________________________________________
Written: October 5–6, 1930
Source/Translated: Converted from the original Gurmukhi (Punjabi) to
Urdu/Persian script by Maqsood Saqib;
translated from Urdu to English by Hasan for marxists.org, 2006;
HTML/Proofread: Andy Blunden and Mike Bessler;
CopyLeft: Creative Common (Attribute & ShareAlike) marxists.org 2006.
________________________________________
It is a matter of debate whether my lack of belief in the existence of an
Omnipresent, Omniscient God is due to my arrogant pride and vanity. It never
occurred to me that sometime in the future I would be involved in polemics of
this kind. As a result of some discussions with my friends, (if my claim to
friendship is not uncalled for) I have realised that after having known me for a
little time only, some of them have reached a kind of hasty conclusion about me
that my atheism is my foolishness and that it is the outcome of my vanity. Even
then it is a serious problem. I do not boast of being above these human follies.
I am, after all, a human being and nothing more. And no one can claim to be more
than that. I have a weakness in my personality, for pride is one of the human
traits that I do possess. I am known as a dictator among my friends. Sometimes I
am called a boaster. Some have always been complaining that I am bossy and I
force others to accept my opinion. Yes, it is true to some extent. I do not deny
this charge. We can use the word `vainglory' for it. As far as the contemptible,
obsolete, rotten values of our society are concerned, I am an extreme sceptic.
But this question does not concern my person alone. It is being proud of my
ideas, my thoughts. It cannot be called empty pride. Pride, or you may use the
word, vanity, both mean an exaggerated assessment of one's personality. Is my
atheism because of unnecessary pride, or have I ceased believing in God after
thinking long and deep on the matter? I wish to put my ideas before you. First
of all, let us differentiate between pride and vanity as these are two different
things.
I have never been able to understand how unfounded, baseless pride or empty
vanity can hinder a person from believing in God. I may refuse to acknowledge
the greatness of a really great person only when I have got fame without doing
any serious efforts or when I lack the superior mental powers necessary to
become great. It is easy to understand but how is it possible that a believer
can turn into a non-believer because of his vanity? Only two things are
possible: either a man deems himself to be in possession of Godly qualities, or
he goes a step further and declares himself to be a god. In both these states of
mind he cannot be an atheist in the true sense of the word. In the first case,
it is not an outright rejection of God's existence; in the other, he is
affirming the existence of some kind of supernatural power responsible for the
working of universe. It does not harm our argument whether he claims to be a god
or considers God to be a reality in existence above his own being. The real
point, however, is that in both cases he is a theist, a believer. He is not an
atheist. I want to bring home this point to you. I am not one of these two
creeds. I totally reject the existence of an Omnipresent, all powerful, all
knowing God. Why so? I will discuss it later in the essay. Here I wish to
emphasise that I am not an atheist for the reason that I am arrogant or proud or
vain; nor am I a demi-god, nor a prophet; no, nor am I God myself. At least one
thing is true that I have not evolved this thought because of vanity or pride.
In order to answer this question I relate the truth. My friends say that after
Delhi bombing and Lahore Conspiracy Case, I rocketed to fame and that this fact
has turned my head. Let us discuss why this allegation is incorrect. I did not
give up my belief in God after these incidents. I was an atheist even when I was
an unknown figure. At least a college student cannot cherish any sort of
exaggerated notion of himself that may lead him to atheism. It is true that I
was a favourite with some college teachers, but others did not like me. I was
never a hardworking or studious boy. I never got an opportunity to be proud. I
was very careful in my behaviour and somewhat pessimistic about my future
career. I was not completely atheistic in my beliefs. I was brought up under the
care and protection of my father. He was a staunch Arya Samaji. An Arya Samaji
can be anything but never an atheist. After my elementary education, I was sent
to D. A. V College, Lahore. I lived in the boarding house for one year. Besides
prayers early in the morning and at dusk time, I sat for hours and chanted
religious Mantras. At that time, I was a staunch believer. Then I lived with my
father. He was a tolerant man in his religious views. It is due to his teachings
that I devoted my life for the cause of liberating my country. But he was not an
atheist. His God was an all-pervading Entity. He advised me to offer my prayers
every day. In this way I was brought up. In the Non-cooperation days, I got
admission to the National College. During my stay in this college, I began
thinking over all the religious polemics such that I grew sceptical about the
existence of God. In spite of this fact I can say that my belief in God was firm
and strong. I grew a beard and `Kais' (long head of hair as a Sikh religious
custom). In spite of this I could not convince myself of the efficacy of Sikh
religion or any religion at all, for that matter. But I had an unswerving,
unwavering belief in God.
Then I joined the Revolutionary Party. The first leader I met had not the
courage to openly declare himself an atheist. He was unable to reach any
conclusion on this point. Whenever I asked him about the existence of God, he
gave me this reply: "You may believe in him when you feel like it." The second
leader with whom I came in contact was a firm believer. I should mention his
name. It was our respected Comrade Sachindara Nath Sanyal. He was sentenced to
life imprisonment in connection with Karachi conspiracy case. Right from the
first page of his only book, `Bandi Jivan' (Incarnated Life) he sings praises to
the Glory of God. See the last page of the second part of this book and you find
praises showered upon God in the way of a mystic. It is a clear reflection of
his thoughts.
..
Let me post part 2 since there is limit .
 
Part 2 0f 3 of Bhagat Singh's write up

According to the prosecution, the `Revolutionary Leaflet' which was distributed
throughout India was the outcome of Sachindara Nath Sanyal's intellectual
labour. So often it happens that in revolutionary activities a leader expresses
his own ideas which may be very dear to him, but in spite of having differences,
the other workers have to acquiesce in them.
In that leaflet, one full paragraph was devoted to the praises of God and His
doings which we, human beings, cannot understand. This is sheer mysticism. What
I want to point out is that the idea of denying the existence of God did not
even occur to the Revolutionary Party. The famous Kakory martyrs, all four of
them, passed their last day in prayers. Ram Parshad Bismal was a staunch Arya
Samaji. In spite of his vast studies in Socialism and Communism, Rajan Lahiri
could not suppress his desire to recite hymns from Upanishads and Gita. There
was but only one person among them who did not indulge in such activities. He
used to say, "Religion is the outcome of human weakness or the limitation of
human knowledge." He is also in prison for life. But he also never dared to deny
the existence of God.
Till that time I was only a romantic revolutionary, just a follower of our
leaders. Then came the time to shoulder the whole responsibility. For some time,
a strong opposition put the very existence of the party into danger. Many
leaders as well as many enthusiastic comrades began to uphold the party to
ridicule. They jeered at us. I had an apprehension that some day I will also
consider it a futile and hopeless task. It was a turning point in my
revolutionary career. An incessant desire to study filled my heart. `Study more
and more', said I to myself so that I might be able to face the arguments of my
opponents. `Study' to support your point of view with convincing arguments. And
I began to study in a serious manner. My previous beliefs and convictions
underwent a radical change. The romance of militancy dominated our predecessors;
now serious ideas ousted this way of thinking. No more mysticism! No more blind
faith! Now realism was our mode of thinking. At times of terrible necessity, we
can resort to extreme methods, but violence produces opposite results in mass
movements. I have talked much about our methods. The most important thing was a
clear conception of our ideology for which we were waging a long struggle. As
there was no election activity going on, I got ample opportunity to study
various ideas propounded by various writers. I studied Bakunin, the anarchist
leader. I read a few books of Marx, the father of Communism. I also read Lenin
and Trotsky and many other writers who successfully carried out revolutions in
their countries. All of them were atheists. The ideas contained in Bakunin's
`God and State' seem inconclusive, but it is an interesting book. After that I
came across a book `Common Sense' by Nirlamba Swami. His point of view was a
sort of mystical atheism. I developed more interest in this subject. By the end
of 1926, I was convinced that the belief in an Almighty, Supreme Being who
created, guided and controlled the universe had no sound foundations. I began
discussions on this subject with my friends. I had openly declared myself an
atheist. What it meant will be discussed in the following lines.
In May 1927, I was arrested in Lahore. This arrest came as a big surprise for
me. I had not the least idea that I was wanted by the police. I was passing
through a garden and all of a sudden the police surrounded me. To my own
surprise, I was very calm at that time. I was in full control of myself. I was
taken into police custody. The next day I was taken to the Railway Police lockup
where I spent a whole month. After many days' conversation with police
personnel, I guessed that they had some information about my connection with the
Kakori Party. I felt they had some intelligence of my other activities in the
revolutionary movement. They told me that I was in Lucknow during the Kakori
Party Trial so that I might devise a scheme to rescue the culprits. They also
said that after the plan had been approved, we procured some bombs and by way of
test, one of those bombs was thrown into a crowd on the occasion of Dussehra in
1926. They offered to release me on condition that I gave a statement on the
activities of the Revolutionary Party. In this way I would be set free and even
rewarded and I would not be produced as an approver in the court. I could not
help laughing at their proposals. It was all humbug. People who have ideas like
ours do not throw bombs at their own innocent people. One day, Mr. Newman, the
then senior Superintendent of CID, came to me. After a long talk which was full
of sympathetic words, he imparted to me what he considered to be sad news, that
if I did not give any statement as demanded by them, they would be forced to
send me up for trial for conspiracy to wage war in connection with Kakori Case
and also for brutal killings in Dussehra gathering. After that he said that he
had sufficient evidence to get me convicted and hanged.
I was completely innocent, but I believed that the police had sufficient power
to do it if they desired it to be so. The same day some police officers
persuaded me to offer my prayers to God two times regularly. I was an atheist. I
thought that I would settle it to myself whether I could brag only in days of
peace and happiness that I was an atheist, or in those hard times I could be
steadfast in my convictions. After a long debate with myself, I reached the
conclusion that I could not even pretend to be a believer nor could I offer my
prayers to God. No, I never did it. It was time of trial and I would come out of
it successful. These were my thoughts. Never for a moment did I desire to save
my life. So I was a true atheist then and I am an atheist now. It was not an
easy task to face that ordeal. Beliefs make it easier to go through hardships,
even make them pleasant. Man can find a strong support in God and an encouraging
consolation in His Name. If you have no belief in Him, then there is no
alternative but to depend upon yourself. It is not child's play to stand firm on
your feet amid storms and strong winds. In difficult times, vanity, if it
remains, evaporates and man cannot find the courage to defy beliefs held in
common esteem by the people. If he really revolts against such beliefs, we must
conclude that it is not sheer vanity; he has some kind of extraordinary
strength. This is exactly the situation now. First of all we all know what the
judgement will be. It is to be pronounced in a week or so. I am going to
sacrifice my life for a cause. What more consolation can there be! A
God-believing Hindu may expect to be reborn a king; a Muslim or a Christian
might dream of the luxuries he hopes to enjoy in paradise as a reward for his
sufferings and sacrifices. What hope should I entertain? I know that will be the
end when the rope is tightened round my neck and the rafters move from under my
feet. To use more precise religious terminology, that will be the moment of
utter annihilation. My soul will come to nothing. If I take the courage to take
the matter in the light of `Reward', I see that a short life of struggle with no
such magnificent end shall itself be my `Reward.' That is all. Without any
selfish motive of getting any reward here or in the hereafter, quite
disinterestedly have I devoted my life to the cause of freedom. I could not act
otherwise. The day shall usher in a new era of liberty when a large number of
men and women, taking courage from the idea of serving humanity and liberating
them from sufferings and distress, decide that there is no alternative before
them except devoting their lives for this cause. They will wage a war against
their oppressors, tyrants or exploiters, not to become kings, or to gain any
reward here or in the next birth or after death in paradise; but to cast off the
yoke of slavery, to establish liberty and peace they will tread this perilous,
but glorious path. Can the pride they take in their noble cause be called
vanity? Who is there rash enough to call it so? To him I say either he is
foolish or wicked. Leave such a fellow alone for he cannot realise the depth,
the emotions, the sentiment and the noble feelings that surge in that heart. His
heart is dead, a mere lump of flesh, devoid of feelings. His convictions are
infirm, his emotions feeble. His selfish interests have made him incapable of
seeing the truth. The epithet `vanity' is always hurled at the strength we get
from our convictions.
You go against popular feelings; you criticise a hero, a great man who is
generally believed to be above criticism. What happens? No one will answer your
arguments in a rational way; rather you will be considered vainglorious. Its
reason is mental insipidity. Merciless criticism and independent thinking are
the two necessary traits of revolutionary thinking. As Mahatmaji is great, he is
above criticism; as he has risen above, all that he says in the field of
politics, religion, Ethics is right. You agree or not, it is binding upon you to
take it as truth. This is not constructive thinking. We do not take a leap
forward; we go many steps back.
Our forefathers evolved faith in some kind of Supreme Being, therefore, one who
ventures to challenge the validity of that faith or denies the existence of God,
shall be called a Kafir (infidel), or a renegade. Even if his arguments are so
strong that it is impossible to refute them, if his spirit is so strong that he
cannot be bowed down by the threats of misfortune that may befall him through
the wrath of the Almighty, he shall be decried as vainglorious. Then why should
we waste our time in such discussions? This question has come before the people
for the first time, hence the necessity and usefulness of such long discussions.
As far as the first question is concerned, I think I have made it clear that I
did not turn atheist because of vanity. Only my readers, not I, can decide
whether my arguments carry weight. If I were a believer, I know in the present
circumstances my life would have been easier; the burden lighter. My disbelief
in God has turned all the circumstances too harsh and this situation can
deteriorate further. Being a little mystical can give the circumstances a poetic
turn. But I need no opiate to meet my end. I am a realistic man. I want to
overpower this tendency in me with the help of Reason. I am not always
successful in such attempts. But it is man's duty to try and make efforts.
Success depends on chance and circumstances.
Now we come to the second question: if it is not vanity, there ought to be some
sound reason for rejection of age-old belief in God. Yes, I come to this
question. I think that any man who has some reasoning power always tries to
understand the life and people around him with the help of this faculty. Where
concrete proofs are lacking, [mystical] philosophy creeps in. As I have
indicated, one of my revolutionary friends used to say that "philosophy is the
outcome of human weakness." Our ancestors had the leisure to solve the mysteries
of the world, its past, its present and its future, its whys and its wherefores,
but having been terribly short of direct proofs, every one of them tried to
solve the problem in his own way. Hence we find wide differences in the
fundamentals of various religious creeds. Sometimes they take very antagonistic
and conflicting forms. We find differences in Oriental and Occidental
philosophies. There are differences even amongst various schools of thoughts in
each hemisphere. In Asian religions, the Muslim religion is completely
incompatible with the Hindu faith. In India itself, Buddhism and Jainism are
sometimes quite separate from Brahmanism. Then in Brahmanism itself, we find two
conflicting sects: Aarya Samaj and Snatan Dheram. Charwak is yet another
independent thinker of the past ages. He challenged the Authority of God. All
these faiths differ on many fundamental questions, but each of them claims to be
the only true religion. This is the root of the evil. Instead of developing the
ideas and experiments of ancient thinkers, thus providing ourselves with the
ideological weapon for the future struggle, – lethargic, idle, fanatical as we
are – we cling to orthodox religion and in this way reduce human awakening to a
stagnant pool.
It is necessary for every person who stands for progress to criticise every
tenet of old beliefs. Item by item he has to challenge the efficacy of old
faith. He has to analyse and understand all the details. If after rigorous
reasoning, one is led to believe in any theory of philosophy, his faith is
appreciated. His reasoning may be mistaken and even fallacious. But there is
chance that he will be corrected because Reason is the guiding principle of his
life. But belief, I should say blind belief is disastrous. It deprives a man of
his understanding power and makes him reactionary.
 
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