Let's try to understand atheism

[Yamaka]

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In other words Shri.Yamaka has a notion of an ideal being in mind. It indeed suggests that he prefers such idealism. But denies that such a being can exist. So we can say that only at the pragmatic level he is an atheist but heart of hearts he too is a theist and given the right experience he will begin to see God.

Dear Sravna:

For want of time, I did not read all the posts here. I am answering here for this post:

1. I don't understand all the Forces of Nature as yet. Perhaps, other specialists/scientists know MORE about it..

As a Neuroscientist myself, I don't understand billion things going on in our brain, the seat of mind and all the discussions that we have here.

But, in course of time, we will understand EVERYTHING, because the PROCESS if inquiry is proceeding relentlessly.

2. I am a simple Atheist. Not an "ideal being". As dear Nara says, when we were all born, we were Atheists... I have gone back to the Original Self, discarding what my parents force-fed me in the name of Theism in my childhood.

3. When I say "PPB is a bribery or a quid pro quo", that's how most Believers think, including my parents, relatives and others. In fact, as a child/teenager, when I prayed five times a day, that's what I thought I was doing. Asking for favors for all the Aaradana of God I did. I thought when I said "Allahu Akbar", I am praising the Lord, and in return I expected my prayers will be granted.

As an adult, I quit being a Theist. Consequently, I have never felt the NEED to pray any God for anything in the past 41 years. God Concept has no meaning to me, hence I am a self proclaimed Atheist.

Yes, I am a pragmatic man, looking for simple logical explanation for all my activities.

4. Somewhere you said that you suffered a lot in life, implying therefore, you became a Theist. And, you posit that if I suffer in life I will become a Theist.

Most probably NOT. Tomorrow, if I get a paralytic stroke and I become immobile, I don't think I will immediately become a Theist.

Rather, I will focus on why I got a paralytic stroke, and what could have avoided it, and so forth.

5. As people have said before, Life is a Journey... I am having lots of fun, and enjoy it as an Atheist.

Some people say "Oh, Yamaka is a lucky rascal. He got what he wanted... But others are not that lucky!"

In my life, I feel LUCK did not play any major role... what I have is what I earned because of hard work, good planning and execution and a healthy attitude.

Nothing more, nothing less.

Innum varum...

 

[Yamaka]

From my mail box:
One may argue, "You devotees are dying, and the non-devotees are also dying, so what is the difference?" There is a difference. A cat catches her kitten in its mouth, and it also catches the mouse in its mouth. Superficially we may see that the cat has caught both the mouse and the kitten in the same way. But there are differences of catching. The kitten is feeling pleasure: "Oh, my mother is carrying me." And the mouse is feeling death: "Oh, now I'm going to die." This is the difference. So, although both devotees and non-devotees die, there is a difference of feeling at the time of death—just like the kitten and the mouse.

Does this not imply that it's the FEAR of Death that makes someone a devotee?

What happens if that FEAR is not there in the first place, as for most Atheists?

I have said many times here that Theists are following the SNA, doing PPB and beleiving in JPK because of

TRADITION (and the power of indoctrination as a child) and/or
FEAR (of death or loss of wealth etc) and/or
Superstition.

It looks I got some ratification! Lol

Cheers.

 

[Yamaka]

We generally see people wearing a Ring in a particular finger with some Special Stones
according to their choice as per their horoscope or numerology, whatever it is, assuming
that such stones will bring special fortunes to them. No doubt, it is one's own faith in
the miracle stone that helps that person and not the stone itself. If the faith can lead
to the stone to get miracle, why can't they have faith in the God to get miracles in their
life.

In order to explain to the ordinary human being in a language that he/she understands in those
days, the Great Rishis and Puranas narrated the concept of God and suggested the method
of worship. Secondly, these days, it is not possible to do penance at the foot of the hills
and there is no need too, if one can understand the Supreme Power of Almighty.

Balasubramanian
Ambattur

It all boils down to blind Belief and Faith, (as propounded by Rishis and Puranas!)

Can't be REAL.

As our great lyricist Kannadasan said," Kall yendral Kall, Kadavul yendral Kadavul!"

It all depends on the psychological NEEDS of the person!

 

[sravna]

Dr.Yamaka Said:

Dear Sravna and other Theists / Believers:

I am repeating myself again here. I am interested more in the views of India91%. If you all can get into their shoes and view the world, we have something to talk.

India9% (most of you are) is an ambiguous amalgam of various ideas. Their concept of God, Ghosts and Spirits are quite alien to India91% who believe in their hearts

a. Human-like personal Godheads
b. Usefulness of PPB as a form of bribery or "quid pro quo"
c. Truthfulness of JPK.

Someone asks, "Oh Yamaka, use your logic and disprove all the a-c".. My answer is your answer dear Sravna when you wrote, "This comes out of pure Belief or Faith... therefore, it can't be logically disproved or proved".

If any of you Believe in a-c here, please go ahead and make a firm case which you all failed so far (See the God Exists Thread).


Innum varum....

Dear Shri Yamaka,

You have not replied to my responses to the couple of arguments of the atheists.

So I am going to make the case for PJK considering what I said in those responses as the basis.

I concluded that there is the ultimate SNA called brahman and that it is omniscient, omnipotent, compassionate and is blissful. Other conclusions are that the purpose of physical birth is attainment of knowledge of brahman and to become one with it. You are welcome to offer counter arguments if you do not agree.

The first conclusion I make here is that since we know that we do not become one with brahman in one birth, there should be rebirths and therefore the concept of soul. This soul should keep evolving since it becomes one with brahman. The purpose of life being to attain the knowledge of brahman, the soul evolves as it keeps acquiring the necessary knowledge. Different births provide different capabilities and different environments and therefore different experiences

Let us now come to the crux of the matter. Compassion and cruelty may drive one's actions. When it is due to the former you are doing a positive deed and when due to the latter you are doing a negative deed. But when you become one with brahman you can neither have this positive attribute of compassion nor the negative one of cruelty. The reason is you transcend attributes which are operative only within the constraints of space time and you begin to exist beyond space and time and hence attributeless.

The point now is you need to get rid of both compassion and cruelty before you become one with brahman. Obviously this cannot be done within a birth. So your positive and negative deeds are allowed to accumulate and at an opportune birth they are unlearnt because of bitter or pleasant experiences as the case may be. That is there is a reaction to your action in a birth different from the one where the action originated. Besides there may be other factors because all the events in the cosmos need to be properly synchronised so that the all the purposes of creation of the physical world is realized. This seems to me to be the way PJK operates.

I have attempted only a broad common sense explanation of how PJK might operate. It is more a rationale for PJK than explaining its mechanisms. Learned members may correct me if anything has been said that is inconsistent with what is said in the scriptures

 

[ozone]

Does this not imply that it's the FEAR of Death that makes someone a devotee?

No. It means that a devotee can overcome the anxiety and the fear of Death

What happens if that FEAR is not there in the first place, as for most Atheists?

From what I have heard, there has been no one who died an Atheist.

I have said many times here that Theists are following the SNA, doing PPB and beleiving in JPK because of

TRADITION (and the power of indoctrination as a child) and/or
FEAR (of death or loss of wealth etc) and/or
Superstition.

Many follow it because it makes sense to them and they see a purposeful life emerging from it.

It looks I got some ratification! Lol

Cheers.

Are you sure?

 

[C RAVI]

Shri Sravna,

I our quest to understand Atheism with the rational explanations by the Atheists, let us see if we could get any answer for the following questions...

1) How and why Good exists? (such as "evil" exists, all theist and atheists knows and accepts that "good" too exists)

2) If only the natural evolution has identified "good" and "evil" in the process and thus both is prevalent, than why the evolution process could not achieve the desired results?? That is, why the evolution till date could not eradicate Evil once for all?

3) Is it feasible and logical to expect ONLY "GOOD" to exist on this Earth in at least another 1000 years of Human evolution?

4) If Good and Evil would ever continue to exist, from the beginning till this Earth survives, than why it would be ever so?

5) Is there any force that wishes both Good and Evil to co-exist?

6) If "YES" and that force is nothing but the Nature's force, as natural law and order, imposed on Humans, to act both in good and evil manner, why and how that force could have such intentions? Why and how that force justifies its intentions?

7) Can SET guarantee existence of ONLY "GOOD", if theism/theists ceases to exist?

8) Can SET succeed in influencing Nature's intentions of both "GOOD" and "EVIL" to prevail, such that only "GOOD" can prevail?

9) Can SET prove that all sorts of Evil in Human senses are purely due to the lack of understanding what is "GOOD" and what is "EVIL"? If they say Evil is nothing but the outcome of Human selfishness, what has caused such sense of selfishness in Humans? If they say the sense of selfishness is the motive of the genes as "The fittest Survive", why so many human genes failed to have the sense of selfishness to the extent of creating Evil? If it is the random process, what causes randomness? If SET can not identify the cause of randomness, then how SET can be so sure of all success and all GOOD without any occurrences of failures and Havoc?

10) Can SET ever explain why the evolution takes place on this Earth? And also why it takes place only as per the intentions of the Nature?

 

[Yamaka]

Dear Sravna:

Thanks for a very thoughtful reply.. At the outset I must observe that you are not getting into "the shoes of one of the people of India91%". What you write is your personal view, I understand. I consider you and many others here as Elites of India1%.

Nonetheless, I am giving my response in bold letters below:

Dear Shri Yamaka,

You have not replied to my responses to the couple of arguments of the atheists.

So I am going to make the case for PJK considering what I said in those responses as the basis.

I concluded that there is the ultimate SNA called brahman and that it is omniscient, omnipotent, compassionate and is blissful. Other conclusions are that the purpose of physical birth is attainment of knowledge of brahman and to become one with it. You are welcome to offer counter arguments if you do not agree.

If your SNA = Force of Nature, then I don't have any disagreement. Then, as I have written before, this Force of Nature will never ever yield to the Aaradana of the Believers in the form of PPB. What say you?

The first conclusion I make here is that since we know that we do not become one with brahman in one birth, there should be rebirths and therefore the concept of soul. This soul should keep evolving since it becomes one with brahman. The purpose of life being to attain the knowledge of brahman, the soul evolves as it keeps acquiring the necessary knowledge. Different births provide different capabilities and different environments and therefore different experiences.

I totally disagree with your description of birth and soul. I am an Atheist.

Let us now come to the crux of the matter. Compassion and cruelty may drive one's actions. When it is due to the former you are doing a positive deed and when due to the latter you are doing a negative deed. But when you become one with brahman you can neither have this positive attribute of compassion nor the negative one of cruelty. The reason is you transcend attributes which are operative only within the constraints of space time and you begin to exist beyond space and time and hence attributeless.

I disagree. As I have said before, compassion and cruelty are qualities present among Believers and Atheists! My comparison of empirical data between India and China shows that India has more Thefts and Murders (by a factor of 2-3 times) than China.. how do you explain this data?

The point now is you need to get rid of both compassion and cruelty before you become one with brahman. Obviously this cannot be done within a birth. So your positive and negative deeds are allowed to accumulate and at an opportune birth they are unlearnt because of bitter or pleasant experiences as the case may be. That is there is a reaction to your action in a birth different from the one where the action originated. Besides there may be other factors because all the events in the cosmos need to be properly synchronised so that the all the purposes of creation of the physical world is realized. This seems to me to be the way PJK operates.

I disagree. I am an Atheist.

I have attempted only a broad common sense explanation of how PJK might operate. It is more a rationale for PJK than explaining its mechanisms. Learned members may correct me if anything has been said that is inconsistent with what is said in the scriptures

Peace, dear Sravna.

 

[sravna]

Shri Sravna,

I our quest to understand Atheism with the rational explanations by the Atheists, let us see if we could get any answer for the following questions...

1) How and why Good exists? (such as "evil" exists, all theist and atheists knows and accepts that "good" too exists)

2) If only the natural evolution has identified "good" and "evil" in the process and thus both is prevalent, than why the evolution process could not achieve the desired results?? That is, why the evolution till date could not eradicate Evil once for all?

3) Is it feasible and logical to expect ONLY "GOOD" to exist on this Earth in at least another 1000 years of Human evolution?

4) If Good and Evil would ever continue to exist, from the beginning till this Earth survives, than why it would be ever so?

5) Is there any force that wishes both Good and Evil to co-exist?

6) If "YES" and that force is nothing but the Nature's force, as natural law and order, imposed on Humans, to act both in good and evil manner, why and how that force could have such intentions? Why and how that force justifies its intentions?

7) Can SET guarantee existence of ONLY "GOOD", if theism/theists ceases to exist?

8) Can SET succeed in influencing Nature's intentions of both "GOOD" and "EVIL" to prevail, such that only "GOOD" can prevail?

9) Can SET prove that all sorts of Evil in Human senses are purely due to the lack of understanding what is "GOOD" and what is "EVIL"? If they say Evil is nothing but the outcome of Human selfishness, what has caused such sense of selfishness in Humans? If they say the sense of selfishness is the motive of the genes as "The fittest Survive", why so many human genes failed to have the sense of selfishness to the extent of creating Evil? If it is the random process, what causes randomness? If SET can not identify the cause of randomness, then how SET can be so sure of all success and all GOOD without any occurrences of failures and Havoc?

10) Can SET ever explain why the evolution takes place on this Earth? And also why it takes place only as per the intentions of the Nature?

Dear Ravi,

Science has only the negative energy at its disposal now. It has to understand, tap and use the spiritual energy to make the things you have mentioned possible. Scientists would have then understood nature better and that knowledge IMO would sober up all the men who harbored evil thoughts.

 

[renuka]

Ever wondered why when a Tsunami strikes..SET or even Prayers cant stop it?
But some people die and some people survive??

 

[renuka]

Dear Ravi,

Science has only the negative energy at its disposal now. It has to understand, tap and use the spiritual energy to make the things you have mentioned possible. Scientists would have then understood nature better and that knowledge IMO would sober up all the men who harbored evil thoughts.

Dear Sravna,

I would disagree with you here.SET does not have negative energy..I would rather rephrase it as Physical/Gross energy.

So far subtle energy has not been tapped into.

Energy I feel is neither positive,negative nor neuter..cos dont forget the Atma is neither Postive,Negative nor Neuter too and everything in this world finally goes back to the Supreme Energy.

The effect of energy becomes "positive" or "negative" when Gunas coming into the picture.

For example...electric flow into 2 bulbs

1st bulb is white colored..so light appears white
2nd bulb is red colored..so light appears red.

Electric was the same but the outward perception changed on contact with colored glass.

Same with energy...the perception of energy changes on contact with the 3 gunas.

 

[sravna]

Dear Renuka,

Yes I did mean only physical energy when I said negative energy. There is both the reality as well as the perception. The reality of physical energy is, it is by nature a force. But for example that force may have no effect on say great yogis, so here it is the perception. A pure spiritual energy by nature doesn't exert force. By nature it connects rather than disconnects the latter being the case of physical energy.

 

[renuka]

Dear Renuka,

Yes I did mean only physical energy when I said negative energy. There is both the reality as well as the perception. The reality of physical energy is, it is by nature a force. But for example that force may have no effect on say great yogis, so here it is the perception. A pure spiritual energy by nature doesn't exert force. By nature it connects rather than disconnects the latter being the case of physical energy.

Dear Sravna,

The Force has apparently no effect on Yogis becos they have become the Force themselves.
They are One with Brahman and hence they are the Force themselves.

In simple words..remember Star Wars movie where they keep talking about the Force?
Remember this dialogue?"May the force be with you young Skywalker but you are not a Jedi yet"

A Jedi strives to be one with the Force.

So same way here Yogis are One with the Force(Brahman)


Just to add Sravna..

Energy is energy..when its evident as in active and can be perceived thru gross sense organs we call it Physical Energy.

 

[sravna]

Dear Sravna,

The Force has apparently no effect on Yogis becos they have become the Force themselves.
They are One with Brahman and hence they are the Force themselves.

In simple words..remember Star Wars movie where they keep talking about the Force?
Remember this dialogue?"May the force be with you young Skywalker but you are not a Jedi yet"

A Jedi strives to be one with the Force.

So same way here Yogis are One with the Force(Brahman)


Just to add Sravna..

Energy is energy..when its evident as in active and can be perceived thru gross sense organs we call it Physical Energy.

Renuka, you are right but physical energy has a disintegrating effect on ordinary mortals unlike spiritual energy whose effect is the opposite. I am saying that they are two different realities , physical energy being much more the result of maya.

 

[renuka]

Renuka, you are right but physical energy has a disintegrating effect on ordinary mortals unlike spiritual energy whose effect is the opposite. I am saying that they are two different realities , physical energy being much more the result of maya.

Dear Sravna,

Energy does not really disintegrate..It just changes form isnt it ?Total net effect remains the same.

 

[sravna]

Dear Sravna,

Energy does not really disintegrate..It just changes form isnt it ?Total net effect remains the same.

No No I am talking about the effect of physical energy. For example when you are exposed to x-rays it has a negative effect on your body. Similarly many other forms of electromagnetic energy.

 

[renuka]

Dear Sravna,

I had just switched on the TV and I heard this line from Discovery Science Channel where one scientist was just giving a brief run down on Science and Creation.

The line was "Is the apparent nothing actually that special something? Question everything and come realize."

I thought that one liner had a very deep meaning and sounded very Upanishadic.

I guess the new breed of scientist are starting to explore more than what really meets the eye.

 

[sravna]

Dear Sravna,

I had just switched on the TV and I heard this line from Discovery Science Channel where one scientist was just giving a brief run down on Science and Creation.

The line was "Is the apparent nothing actually that special something? Question everything and come realize."

I thought that one liner had a very deep meaning and sounded very Upanishadic.

I guess the new breed of scientist are starting to explore more than what really meets the eye.

Dear Renuka,

More than the inability to see that truth it is I think the refusal to see it. Acceptance has to happen.

 

[nannilam_balasubramanian]

Atheists can only assume that God does not exist for them. Do such people
really put that into their practical life. No one can measure the actual efficacy
of prayer and come to a conclusion that it is useless to pray the God. We have
profound answers many a time to state that God exists. To cite an example, a
few years back, a devoted Lady had a dream of a Deity telling her to come to the
Temple located at Thirumeeyachur and decorate the Goddess with a Golusu to the
Deity's legs. Of late, after this incident, many ladies have started offering Golusu
to the Deity at the above temple. This information was gathered from a very reliable source.

Balasubramanian
Ambattur

 

[prasad1]

Mr. Sravna,
I was apprehensive of this thread at the beginning. But knowing your intention, and genuine interest in understanding Atheism I was comfortable in participating. Since that time we have had interesting posts.

People have been speaking about atheist as if they are monolithic, that is not true. Similarly all Theist are not of the same hue. I for one does not believe in praying for material gains or success in exams.

I summation what have we learned?

 

[sravna]

Mr. Sravna,
I was apprehensive of this thread at the beginning. But knowing your intention, and genuine interest in understanding Atheism I was comfortable in participating. Since that time we have had interesting posts.

People have been speaking about atheist as if they are monolithic, that is not true. Similarly all Theist are not of the same hue. I for one does not believe in praying for material gains or success in exams.

I summation what have we learned?

To be honest, there were not many new insights on why the atheists reject the claim of God. The main reason seems to be again that they think it is not necessary to posit the existence of God. They also are not comfortable with the notion of a compassionate God because of the evils that exist in the world. They think, without giving valid reasons, that belief in God is the cause of many of the ills of the society and that the western societies advanced because they gradually became less believing in God.

I was looking forward to logical rebuttals of the arguments. But that was not forthcoming. For example we could have an interesting discussion if they could logically prove why an omnipotent entity is not possible and similar logical analysis? That is the only way the discussions could become productive. Otherwise it would just be each one's beliefs.

 

[prasad1]

I guess even among theist we can differ on our definition of "God".
I can not support the limited God of Abrahamic religion, or the vengens full and petty God like Satyanarayan Katha.
So If I was to reject the Allah of Modern Islam, I too would be an atheist. I know lot of my friends in the gita study group are disillusioned Christian. So they too rejected the God of Bible.

 

[Jaykay767]

Lets be clear. Atheists have NO explanation for the origin, purpose & meaning of life !. all they have to say/can say is "prove God's existence, then we will believe". isnt it funny that they litter the internet with so much of material to say that the religious texts are wrong. you can do that with 1 statement & a few thousand likes. !!

(Refer my earlier post - vedic texts are being proved right by science).

Now lets come to the scientific view of the world - Big Bang theory is fairly well accepted theory in scientific circles. - the universe & its components come from energy source. - our texts says all of world's creation comes from Brahman, the supreme being, the Shakti - energy. Near death experience talks about the "bright light at the end of the tunnel" !. Time travel - needless to say, this is now proved correct by Einstien. Good & evil co-exist in everything, & every being - Matter & Anti matter theory !, etc..

So the Karmic/PJK (purva janma karma) theory also may get proved in the future !.

so going by the scientific advance, & they are coming closer to our religous views, it is matter of time, they will prove this conclusively.

many people in the 18th & 19th century thought the time travels in Vedas are fiction & have no basis. similarly arguing with the atheist in the 21st century is pointless !.

 

[Yamaka]

Lets be clear. Atheists have NO explanation for the origin, purpose & meaning of life !. all they have to say/can say is "prove God's existence, then we will believe". isnt it funny that they litter the internet with so much of material to say that the religious texts are wrong. you can do that with 1 statement & a few thousand likes. !!

(Refer my earlier post - vedic texts are being proved right by science).

Now lets come to the scientific view of the world - Big Bang theory is fairly well accepted theory in scientific circles. - the universe & its components come from energy source. - our texts says all of world's creation comes from Brahman, the supreme being, the Shakti - energy. Near death experience talks about the "bright light at the end of the tunnel" !. Time travel - needless to say, this is now proved correct by Einstien. Good & evil co-exist in everything, & every being - Matter & Anti matter theory !, etc..

So the Karmic/PJK (purva janma karma) theory also may get proved in the future !.

so going by the scientific advance, & they are coming closer to our religous views, it is matter of time, they will prove this conclusively.

many people in the 18th & 19th century thought the time travels in Vedas are fiction & have no basis. similarly arguing with the atheist in the 21st century is pointless !.

Hi JK:

Please read my answer in the God Fallacy Thread...

Take care.

Y.

 

[Nara]

....I was looking forward to logical rebuttals of the arguments. But that was not forthcoming..

Dear sravna, presently in this forum there are only two active posters who are open atheists, and everyone knows who those two are. Speaking only for myself, I really don't know why you expected any response from me.

You titled this thread "Let's try to understand atheism", but the posts I have seen are not ones of inquiry but one of polemical rebuttal. You say you are convinced that the arguments of the atheists are fundamentally flawed. You also say Atheists are arrogant, they are egotistical, doomed for destruction. You are not alone in characterizing what an Atheist really is. Others say we are just pseudo-Atheists, we don't even understand what atheism really is.

From all this it seems you are least bit interested in understanding atheism, all you want to do is tell us what you think we are. So, I see no rational basis to participate in this discussion.

Dear Sravna, we have discussed these questions many times before. It has always ended in an impasse. Invariably you will claim some special "higher" knowledge which I would always reject. So, when we can't even arrive at a common epistemology, where is the possibility of a reasonable debate between the two of us on theism or atheism?

You say you were looking forward to logical rebuttals. For your wish to be realized we need to first agree on what is logical.

Cheers!

 

[renuka]

Dear Sravna,

Check out this video..Curiosity: Something of Nothing : Video : Discovery Channel

The video says this at the last few seconds.

particles such as protons behave according to to the laws of nature we call quantum mechanics.
It is possible for them to spontaneous appear at random stick around for a while and then vanish and reappear at another place.

So its possible that the universe could have just popped up into existence without violating the known laws of nature.


Ok Sravna,

Dont you think the part where its says that protons can appear, hang around for a while, vanish and reappear somewhat like drishti-srishti-laya concept of Hinduism?

One more thing...the video says that the law of nature is not violated when the universe came into existence.

I find this statement sort of contradicting cos since creation was yet to take place but there already seems to be some pre existing law of Nature to follow.

What is that law according to science and why does it have to be followed?
I wonder what is the answer of science to that.

To me that law of nature appears to be Prakirti.What do you feel?

Link on creation:

http://www.kheper.net/topics/Vedanta/Ramana_on_creation.html