Marriage Delays

[RVR]

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I would like to recollect two incidents in Ramayana and Mahabaratha regarding astrology.

Lord Rama's pattabishekam was fixed by Rishi Vashita. It didn't take place and Rama went to vanasasa. We cannot suspect Rishi Vashita's capablities.

Duryodhana consulted Sahadeva for the most auspicious date for starting the war since Sahadeva was an expert in astrology. As a true professional, Sahadeva suggested the best time and date to Duryodana even though he is very much in the opposite side. But Lord Krishna intervened & managed to salvage the situation. It only shows that Lord Krishna himself has believed in astrology and auspicious time

Simply because we don't know, we should not make comments about Jyothisa Sastra. It is an age old practice and is an art (If not science). Unfortunately it has been commercialised now and all sorts of people have entered the field. Still there are experts who are able to predict the future accurately.

 

[anbesivam1000]

சோதிடம்

வழக்கமாகச் சோதிடர்கள் சொல்லும் கதை ஒன்று உண்டு. ஒரு பெரிய சோதிடர் தன் மகளுக்கு ஜாதகப் பொருத்தம் எல்லாம் நன்றாகப் பார்த்துக் கல்யாணம் பண்ணி வைத்தார். அன்று மாலையே அவள் விதவை ஆனாள். ‘தவறு எங்கே நடந்தது, எல்லாம் சரியாகத் தானே கணக்கிட்டோம்’ என்று அவர் மண்டையை உடைத்துக் கொண்டார். அவருக்குச் சோதிடத்தில் நம்பிக்கை போய்விட்டது. மாப்பிள்ளையைத் தகனம் செய்யும் தீயில் தன் சோதிட சாத்திரச் சுவடிகளையும் சேர்த்துப் பொசுக்கிவிடத் தீர்மானித்தார். அப்பொழுது அங்கு ஒரு பிராமணர் வந்தார். இவருடைய செயலுக்குக் காரணத்தைத் தெரிந்து கொண்டபின் அவர் கேட்டார், “உன் பெண் பிறந்த நேரத்தை எப்படிக் கணக்கிட்டாய்?”
சோதிடர்- “பிரசவ அறையின் வாசலில் நான் நின்றிருந்தேன். ஜனனம் ஆனவுடன் ஒரு எலுமிச்சம்பழத்தை உருட்டிவிட்டு எனக்குச் செய்தி தெரிவிக்க வேண்டுமென்று தாதியிடம் ஏற்பாடு செய்து கொண்டிருந்தேன். அவ்வாறே பழம் என் கைக்கு வந்த நேரத்திலிருந்து பழத்தின் பயண நேரத்தைக் கழித்து ஜனன நேரத்தைக் கணக்கிட்டேன்.”
பிராமணர்- “அதில் தான் பிரச்சினை. அந்த எலுமிச்சம்பழம் உன் கைக்கு நேராக வரவில்லை. அது பிரசவ அறையின் திரையால் தடுக்கப்பட்டுக் கால் விநாடி தாமதித்து வந்தது. நீ அதைக் கவனிக்கவில்லை. வேண்டுமானால் அந்தத் தாதியைக் கேட்டுக் கொள்.”

அதிருஷ்டவசமாக அந்தத் தாதி உயிருடன் இருந்தாள். இருபது வருடங்களுக்கு முன் நடந்ததை நினைவுபடுத்திக் கொண்டு அவள் அந்த பிராமணர் சொன்னதை உறுதி செய்தாள்.

சோதிடர்கள் பொய்க்கலாம், சோதிட சாத்திரம் பொய்க்காது என்பதற்குச் சான்றாக பல சோதிடர்கள் இந்தக் கதையைச் சொல்ல நான் கேட்டிருக்கிறேன்.

என்னுடைய கேள்வி- இவ்வளவு நுட்பமாகக் கணிக்கவேண்டிய விஷயத்தில் நாம் தேவையான அளவு கவனம் செலுத்துகிறோமா?

சர்மா அவர்களே, உங்களைத் தனிப்பட்ட முறையில் குறை சொல்வதாக நினைக்க வேண்டாம். எல்லோரும் உண்மையை அறியும் முயற்சியில் தான் இறங்கி இருக்கிறோம். நீங்கள் உண்மையைச் சான்றுகளுடன் நிரூபித்தால் அதை ஏற்றுக் கொள்ளும் நடுநிலை மனத்தோடு தான் இதை எழுதுகிறேன்.
முதலில் மச்சத்தைக் கொண்டு ராசி லக்னத்தை அறியலாம் என்றீர்கள். இப்பொழுது எனக்குப் புரியாத பாஷயில் நவாம்ச லக்னம், டி9 என்று ஏதேதோ சொல்கிறீர்கள். சோதிடம் கற்றுக்கொண்டால் தான் என்னோடு வாதம் செய்ய முடியும் என்று சொல்ல மாட்டீர்கள் என நம்புகிறேன்.

ஆக, ஒரு ஜாதகம் சரியாகக் கணிக்கப்பட்டிருக்கிறது என்பதை உறுதி செய்யப் பல பாதுகாப்பு ஏற்பாடுகள் இருக்கின்றன என்றும் நீங்கள் அவற்றைப் பின்பற்றித் தான் பலன் சொல்கிறீர்கள் என்றும் நான் எடுத்துக் கொள்ளலாமா?

அப்படியானால், என் முதல் கடிதத்தில் கேட்டிருந்தபடி, ஜாதக விவரங்கள் உண்மையாக இருந்தால் என்று ஒரு தொங்கலை ஏன் அவ்வப்பொழுது சேர்த்துக் கொள்கிறீர்கள்?
அன்பேசிவம்

 

[RVR]

I think we stop the argument whether astrology is true or not. It is purely a personal belief and we should not discuss the topic hurting the sentiments. In the matrimony sites, more than 90% of the people insist `horoscope match is a must'. Both the parents have to agree on horoscope match, which is a tough task. Very few people among TB community are not insisting of horoscope matching.

I earnestly request our members to stop further discussions on this topic as it may create ill feelings.

 

[kunjuppu]

i would go along with the sentiments of venkat.

this is faith. if you believe, it is ok. if you don't believe don't practise it.

folks with one view are not going to be convinced of the other. ditto for vice versa.

i wish those folks who believe in horoscopes, well in life.

others, like me, who don't believe, i wish us all well too.

my reasons for not believing in horoscopes are many:
- it plays on one's fears;
- many unhappy families resulted through horoscope matching;
- many happy families resulted without horoscope matching;
- keeping life a little simpler;
- takes the fun out of the unknown..

this is an endless and futile arguement otherwise... but it does not behoove well for one side to criticize another.

different strokes for different folks

thank you.

 

[RVR]

I think people are willing dilute expectations particularly from Boy's side. Recently I met a leading astrologer in Chennai who is running a matrimonial matching service. He listed some of the points from girl side.

1. Girls are employed and are earning well now
2. Girls don't want to give up the job
3. Girl's parents are unable to go against wishes of their daughter
4. Only in the recent month`s girl side has started showing some signs of flexibility mainly due to recession.
5. Finally he said if the recession continues further, it is better for the entire society.

Recent global economic boom has created lot of problems and the present recession is very much needed. I think correction will take place during next few years and thinks will be alright afterwards.

I think economists should think over the cycles and its effect on marriage market. Probably they can predict this market also

 

[haritm]

Dear Friends,

Don't Worry. All the Navgrahas are under the control of Matha Parvathy. Whenever you get time go to the near by Amman temple and pray her. Also, try to visit Madurai Meenakshi Temple once (if possible attend Meenakshi Kalyanam). All your problems will be solved.

 

[anbesivam1000]

நன்கு உரைத்தீர் குஞ்சுப்பு அவர்களே, நமது குலம் தழைக்கட்டும்.
அன்பே சிவம்.

 

[RVR]

Thirugnana Sambandar's `Kolaru Pathikam' and Arunagirinathar`s stanza starting with `Naal enna seyyum' are best examples. Vaishnavites don't bother about Navagraha at all.

If God is in your heart, all the Grahams will turn good to you.

All the Navagraha`s are facing unidirection to Lord Thiagaraja at Thiruvarur (normally they face different directions).

 

[sriram.sma]

I donot if it due to Rasi or Nakshatram but one thing is for sure, if we dont gety married befor 30yrs thats all nobody will come for your rescue...im also in the same boat...what to do !!!!

1. no one in family/relatives to help
2. this happening to me too

3.too smart get themselves look for girl and get married soon
4.when we/one gives others way--we/one get delayed
this is the process of selfishness
5. highly irresponsible family--they live for themselves

PROBABLE SOLUTION
1. make many friends and relatives[helpful nature]
2.this happens in --TAMIL BRAHMINS--who are too intelligent for themselves and not --so helpful for others in family
whereas in case of --Business family--family is helpful --whatsoever be the --horoscope-
they hardly have problem --like someone --not getting married in their family

Thanks

Siva

 

[RVR]

Dear Sriram ji,

Please don't loose heart. Now life expectancy has gone up. Girls also come for marriage mostly around 25 years only. Please continue to try.

If youngsters like you are frustrated, it is not good for the society. You have to achieve a lot.

All the best

 

[kunjuppu]

sriram,

here is some unwanted and thoroughly disposable advice. please feel free to garbage it, either before, or after perusing

- treat the marriage issue as a time boxed project
- by any definition, it is unique, time driven, has an objective, needs budget and necessary sign-offs
- come up with business requirements - must want, would likes and wish list
- do an analysis of the market with preferred vendors (brahmins)
- pray do consider non-preferred vendors (other than TBs, whatever you can handle)
- do a gap fit analysis
- measure the gap against your constraints (age, bachelorhood etc)
- measure the fit against your wishes (good looks, compatibility etc)
- evaluate the solution thoroughly
- make a choice
- if possible do a pilot (possibly not feasible in india)
- implement
- share the lessons learned here in the forum, for your fellow TB bachelors

thank you

 

[RVR]

Very good analysis Sri Swaminatha Sharma. Only boys or his parents are complaining in this forum that they are not getting girls. There seems to be genuine shortage of girls in our community at this point of time. Probably things will get equalised during the course of time. My rough estimate shows three boys are chasing one girl in matrimonial sites.

But how to overcome the shortage of girls at this point of time?
Can brahmins adopt other community girls? After adoption will she become a brahmin girl?
Can a Brahmin boy marry such girl without back clash from his own community?

I request eminent scholars of our community to answer the above questions

 

[chims]

In the 8 varieties of marriage, all marriages are done without looking into the background of the girl; only in the later period we have started attaching importance to the clan and sect.Any girl is okey in the gandharva- only beauty and appeal is essential.not even ritual required.
The problem with these type of marriage is that they find it difficult to adjust to the ritualistic requirements of the new family. Nowadays when the boy himself sacrifised many of the rituals, and become a 21st century man, there is no harm in marrying other community girl/. If she is not accepting your rituals, you change to their requirement( recently I have attended a lot of inter caste brahmin marriages and I am forced to think in these lines.)
Each family is equipped with one child norm and the boy is take care of other side also.I have come across a matrimonial advt in the web,wherein the girl is saying," if you can relocate to Bangalore, you can respond else do not respond - as I have to take care of my parents".
In the Enge Brahmann serial, sri cho has questioned the moral of non --gothra in the case of remarriage?! Once she is married, where is question of her parental gothra appears for a second time? A thought provoking question.

Shri RVRAmani has placed this question:
Can brahmins adopt other community girls? After adoption will she become a brahmin girl?

Adoption of what, once manthra is spelt, she becomes woman of the other family/person.
You believe in your manthra. if not no value to manthra.
Adoption of her style of functioning to the brahmin style is definitely a difficult. Even today, brahmin girl do not adjust to the new house and claim, Enga piranthathle palazhakkam illai" Enga pakkathle ippadi illai"; one has to adjust with mixed life.
Adjust with TIME, locality( our new american brahmin style and NRI style and
metro style then the Agrahara style) When we have accepted so many styles, we can definitely accept the girl of different community in the family and new norms set.

 

[kunjuppu]

venkat,

i am more to go along chims' take on this thing.

there is an epidemic need to find girls for these boys. is that not the priority? what use is kulam or gothram, when the entire lineage has disappeared?

i think, the 'eminent scholars' would be divided, based on their interpretation of the scriptures. or their prejudices.

from the religious leaders, i think, we can expect reluctance and a call to 'status quo'.

in this context, i am glad, that we do not have one single religious leader to make such statements.

one only has to look at the pope, with his edicts, being merrily ignored by western catholics. particularly his views on birth control, pre marital sex, abortion and gay marriage.

bachelors, if they are so inclined to marry a woman, must first find a woman. then comes the terms of accommodation to suit one's community and society. not the other way around.

thank you.

 

[kunjuppu]

For so many of us, obsessed with caste, creed, kulam, gothram and what not, I wish to describe the concept of casteless Hinduism as practised outside of india.

I would imagine, such were the practices of the empires of south east asia and Indonesia, where the religion and culture had its origins in india.

So too it is, with the migration starting in the 1800s to the west indies, Mauritius, fiji, south Africa. Many of the hindu temples here do not have a Brahmin priest. The scriptures may be read in tamil or Sanskrit, but out of English script.

What is more interesting is the terminologies used: service, priest, blessing, offering, sacrament, .. which we know as araadhanai/pujai, vaadhiar/panditji, sevai, neivethyam, akshadhai etc…

When I first heard this, I was amazed, but all of it made sense eventually.

With the new generation of youth, born and brought up in the west, a new generation of casteless hindus is emerging. They are not particularly religious or ritually inclined. But they have a strong sense of identity with the culture (unfortunately all reference is from bollywood), clothing, pomp and ceremony. Not much unlike the youth of india in that context.

Surprisingly large numbers have chosen to marry within the hindu fold, though all but a handful, among the crowd that I know, who chose to marry per kulam gothram tradition. Marriages between north south east west of india, appear to be seamless in their approach, with the ceremonies evolving to the tune and dance of the day.

Arya samaj wedding is for the trendy folks. It is a 1 ½ hour affair, with the bare essentials of vedic ceremonies. No vigrahams to be displayed. No dhaaravaathus. The bride and the groom come separately to the dais, and go together J

Many of them also produce elaborate explanatory document, spelling out the details and significance of the rituals – a must as much for the western guests, as our own.

What I wish to say, to those TB bachelors, who are waiting to land with a bride, is to take the matter into your own hands. Advertise. Offer discounts (bear all wedding expense). Put yourself on sale (temple wedding). Sitting on your hands and lamenting, I think, will not help you land a lass.

This is one of the baggages that we need to shed, I think. The sooner the better.

 

[ram_1985]

Ram--Iyengar

All those who view this discussions and all those who are searching for life partner think well....

As Kunjuppu said one of the main reason is too much depend on Matrimonial Website...

Letz do something to circulate bride/groom details amoung ourself..

All our Brahmin family members spend money in Tamil matrimony/shaddi/any matrimonial site to search...But we ourself never created any useful forum/website...

Are we effectively using matrimonial section in this site?????

Ram

 

[ram_1985]

One more reason.....

The only way our community can survey is with a job as we(our community people) dont hold any land or we dont rely on any Business...

So still he gets a standard job, guy cant even think of his marriage...By the time he settles his age is either late 20's or early 30's...

But most of the girls prefer guys below 27...As a result guy in early 30's find it difficult even he got a job...

If a guy settles before 25 i am sure he will find a nice girl...

This is how it is and it is how our guys end up with no marriage...

I feel that we should do something to bring our community...

 

[pannvalan]

After doing some extensive survey on the subject and from my own observations, I found these.

1. People by and large have become choosy.

2. "Ayiram maram kanda thachchan yethaiyume vetta maattaan". When a person has
got myriad choices before him/her, he/she finds it difficult to narrow down their
choices.

3. Today's youth even though look very modern, when it comes to their own
marriage, they behave like a conservative of the worst order (I am talking about
the majority say, 75%)

4. Even girls, especially employed girls, have started rejecting so many good boys for
a variety of reasons. Some of them funny too. e.g.
1. 'Living in USA, he still does sandhyavandanam every day; Che!"
2. "He doesn't know even to knot his tie properly"
3. "He eats only south indian dishes; does not like burgers or pizzas"
4. "He doesn't drink or even smoke. How can he succeed in his business?"
5. "He listens to his mother's words only; hence incorrigible".

I respect the freedom of choice of both the genders. But, adducing silly reasons
smacks of something untold.

5. Parents also, thinking they are guaranteeing good future for their daughters or
ensuring a perfect match for their daughters, reject several good varans.

I suggest the following.

1. Later the marriage, the better the social status of the boy will be. Hence the
demands from the boys side will be more after 30, 32 years. Never postpone the
search for an alliance, beyond 24 years for girls and 27 years for boys. This is to
ensure that girls get married before they attain 27 years of age and boys before
30 years of age.
2. There is no rule that boy must be at least one notch up in terms of education and
employment or earnings. Equal status also is to be accepted.
3. Don't keep so many parameters to select the match. Keep some as very
important and be ready to compromise on the remaining. 100% of one's
expectations can not be met.
4. The family back-ground of the boy/girl and the personal character and conduct of
the boy/girl are the most important. Never compromise on these, for the sake of
one's higher status or earning potential.
5. Finally, do not stick rigidly to your own sub-sect. I know many cases where the
boy belonged to their own sub-sect but accustomed to eat non-veg regularly or
consume liquor which caused many problems for the girl concerned.
6. Personal hygiene and health are important, agreed. But, one should not go to the
extent of demanding proof for them.
7. While using brokers, be careful. While replying to ads, be extra careful. Avoid
cases referred through totally unknown sources.

 

[chims]

Well analysed pannvalan; add the other rejction reasons also; let us print out the causes to the matrimonial bazaar

After doing some extensive survey on the subject and from my own observations, I found these.
]

 

[pannvalan]

Dear Chims,

Some more reasons for rejection are:

1. The boy has both the parents alive and has unmarried sister/s too. They all will be
a liability and source of trouble to my daughter.

2. The boy's job is transferable and we (the parents of the girl) cannot visit them,
as often as we want.

3. The boy has spent all his savings so far on his sister's marriage. What is left for
my daughter, if she marries him?

4. Some distant relative of the boy have some serious ailment or did not have any
children. Suppose the boy also suffers from such problem?

5. The boy doesn't have practical outlook and cannot come up in his life (this
conclusion is reached based on interaction of short duration with him).

6. The boy doesn't match my daughter, in terms of outward looks (beauty/charm),
complexion and height.

7. The boy still hands over his pay pocket to his parent/s, every month. Hence he is
undependable.

 

[RVR]

Is it possible to make a survey through this forum?. All the leading astrologers in Chennai are telling that there is shortage of girls in the market. Probably matrimonial sites are misleading us. Can we have a quick survey of few eligible boys and girls near us? I request people well versed in statistics to guide us on this matter on sample size etc.

 

[kunjuppu]

thanks swami.

this is the first good news we are hearing on behalf of the boys

hope this lead proves fruitful for many many more.

 

[RVR]

Thanks Sri Swaminatha Sharma. I think our boys and their parents will take the clue and act accordingly.

I think economic disparity in our community will also get balanced to a great extent. It is good for our community. Boy's parents should look for good girls from poor TB families.

 

[Ramacchandran]

An amazing point which came out here , with a check-mate..
interestingly, a nice counter argument is placed by Shri.Kunjuppu.. What if the girl earns more? will her hubby accepts reversal of role, at home?

Recently a couple of days ago on Amavasa a couple came to my house. Both are from I.T. and bank. The Husband is with a bank and his wife is a B.Tech (I.T) and employed at a handsome salary.

The girl said, "Look Uncle, my immediate superior misbehaves with me and often scold me that I am doing lots of mistakes that I never committed and ask me to stay with him till 1.00 A.M. Even though the shift closes at 11.00 P.M., He says this is important and you alone can do that. He often uses two meaning replies."

"To a lady, newly wedded he said, please do not conceive at least for 20 months as we need to finish the project and don't put leave for one week or 10 days."

"Alas! a death had happened in her house and she was unable to go to work for 16 days. She was fired!"

Then came the reply from her husband "See Mama, I arranged for a flat that will cost Rs.40 Lakhs,and paid a deposit of Rs 5 Lakhs only last week, my salary alone is not sufficient to repay the loan. So at any cost I must buy the flat and do graha Pravesam!"

Now the girl said, "in that case my father will give you Rs20,000 every month"

Boy said, "No! I am to give your salary certificate as a guarantor!

So you must also work! at that time of the marriage what you said and your parents guaranteed? They put a condition that I must allow you work and should not stop you and that your aim is very big to be a team Manager in three to five years! So I accepted.

If you say that your immediate superior misbehaves with you politely change the dept. or tell him you are a married lady with commitments to fulfill or report this to his boss and chase him away!"

Now I don't have the answer is there any one to answer this and guide the couple?

It is true and since they are in the beginning of their life and to protect their identity on behalf of them I am posting this.

 

[GopalaswamyShridharan]

Ramacchandran,

Let the couple sort things out amongst themselves,after all they are adults not babies needing counseling.Though i am partial towards the husbands plight,as i am dead against any pre-conditions before or after marriage.

gopal.