moral dilemma

[Vanaja Mani]

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vanajaji
I can see what ou are going through.
If you require any help in india, in delhi , bangalore or chennai pl. do not hesitate to send me a PM .I stay in delhi but visit the other places often because of my children or property interests.
I can always spare time for a good cause such as a girls marriage
I feel sometimes, parents who moved to western countries are out of touch with indian realities and how much things have changed.
they behave like parents of fifties and sixties and making demands on girls parents.
Parents in india have faced the realities of indian living and have moderated their behaviour and actions to some extent.
now , many are prepared to widen their search to atleast other brahmin communities if it is difficult in their subcastes.
education and jobs are priorities for bos and girls. also educated and working girls parents set terms to prospective grooms and their parents. many have developed a liberal mindset.
you might have different set of issues as your child has exposure to a different culture and the need for a prospective person to accept western liberal values. there are many boys who have worked a few years abroad and have post graduate degree from US univ and are working now in india. it should be pretty easy to locate a suitable person .
if you are prepared to search based on minimalist specs of decent education , job with liberal mindset and working in a metro of india.you can find good matches . I got my son and daughter married off on this basis,I do not regret my choices

I am very encouraged after reading your post. As I mentioned my daughter has no unrealistic expectations except that the boy should have Indian values but at the same time be liberal, in other words treat her as equal and have a dynamic personality. She does not like nerdy looking boys with no sense of humour or zest for life. She does want to work in the USA to recoup some of the outlay she has put in for an Ivy League MBA ( they are not cheap). But most importantly she wants to start an NGO in India down the track to help less fortunate people. Maybe this is a deal breaker for some boys because they do not want to stay in India for any extended time except the normal 2 week holidays.

I am a bit apprehensive of looking for boys in India as the adjustment factor for someone brought up all her life in the west could be overwhelming. I know of at least two girls who returned to aussieland within a year of marriage to boys in India. The patriarchal society and the expectations from a daughter-in-law were too much for them to cope with.

These are normal girls with clean habits and brought up as much as an Indian as possible. Still they found the culture shock too much to bear. The boys in question did not have consideration for their wives upbringing in a liberal progressive society and kept insisting that they follow their mother's orders. One of the girls was expected to wake up at 5:30 am and do Kolam in the front, not wear churidhars or any western clothing, cook for the entire family before leaving for work etc.

So ideally we would like someone who is in the USA currently and would support her future goal of setting up NGO in India.

 

[Vanaja Mani]

She is a pure vegetarian and does not eat even eggs. She does not drink or party. With great difficulty we have convinced her that she cannot expect her husband to be vegetarian or a teetotaller even among brahmins.

 

[vgane]

She is a pure vegetarian and does not eat even eggs. She does not drink or party. With great difficulty we have convinced her that she cannot expect her husband to be vegetarian or a teetotaller even among brahmins.

Even in Chennai you will find vegetarians and teetotallers...But not sure if they will not be Amma kondus!

But there are lots of children studied in good schools and colleges from Chennai and went to US for Masters or Doctorates and have returned and taken up a job with a MNC...You can find a match for your daughter there too

 

[vgane]

I saw the Namma Veetu Kalyanam in TV where the sister in law consulted the girl if she is interested in a traditional marriage with a Madisar or a different type.. That Girls are being consulted and their likes and dislikes understood...So you will find your choice for your daughter..Wishing you all the very best

 

[Vaagmi]

Dear Vanajaji,

Excuse me for coming in and joining this conversation. Being an open forum I think I can join and offer my views.

........ As I mentioned my daughter has no unrealistic expectations except that the boy should have Indian values but at the same time be liberal, in other words treat her as equal and have a dynamic personality. She does not like nerdy looking boys with no sense of humour or zest for life. She does want to work in the USA to recoup some of the outlay she has put in for an Ivy League MBA ( they are not cheap). But most importantly she wants to start an NGO in India down the track to help less fortunate people. Maybe this is a deal breaker for some boys because they do not want to stay in India for any extended time except the normal 2 week holidays.

These are expectations of any realistic indian girl too. That is a girl born brought up in India in indian environment with the associated value system. Not only a nerdy looking boy but also a very religious looking boy with no sense of humour or zest for life is not liked by Indian girls these days. And nowadays without a girls express consent no parent will venture into a marriage alliance. Tamil brahmin girls are very intelligent and they know what they want. If they find a boy well qualified with a good income and good looks they know how to wean him away from being an "ammakondu". So I find no difference between an average indian girl looking for a match and your daughter looking for a match. About being in US for sufficiently long to build a corpus and then to come to India to pursue a personal passion are specifics. They can be discussed and you may find there are many boys with matching agenda. There are boys who would like to spend five or six years after marriage in US or Europe chasing money and knowledge with passion and then coming back to India when the Children start going to schools, as that is the time when children start acquiring permanent values to form their value system. So your girl will easily get a matching boy with a matching agenda/[lan for life.

I am a bit apprehensive of looking for boys in India as the adjustment factor for someone brought up all her life in the west could be overwhelming. I know of at least two girls who returned to aussieland within a year of marriage to boys in India. The patriarchal society and the expectations from a daughter-in-law were too much for them to cope with.
These are normal girls with clean habits and brought up as much as an Indian as possible. Still they found the culture shock too much to bear. The boys in question did not have consideration for their wives upbringing in a liberal progressive society and kept insisting that they follow their mother's orders. One of the girls was expected to wake up at 5:30 am and do Kolam in the front, not wear churidhars or any western clothing, cook for the entire family before leaving for work etc.

The children's capacity and flexibility to adopt to changed environment and conditions of life is generally discounted by doting parents. I don't believe that the Western values are "liberal" while Indian values are "repressive or retrograde". They are just values of two different societies. There is nothing to grade them as more liberal and less liberal. Finally the question stays "liberty for what?". There is nothing very progressive about the western societies and retrogressive about the Indian society. I would prefer to replace the word "progressive" with "decadent" and "liberal" with "licentious". I am not alone in this. There are many others who think this way. I have lived in west and I know what it is like. There are also many girls with a western background who have seamlessly merged with the husband's household here and rather enjoy it. Doing a kolam in the frontyard is not all that bad. If you do not know kolam you can excuse yourself and no one will compel you to do a shabby work there. Kolam is an expression of a creative mind. Every time I see a kolam in the front yard in the street houses of Mylapore even today, I appreciate the creative mind behind that. This does not mean that I am for dictating to the DIL to get up in the morning at 5 every day and cook all alone for schoolgoing and office going army in the house. That would be very stupid of the elders in the house to do that to a DIL. But I would think it to be a rare individual aberration.

So ideally we would like someone who is in the USA currently and would support her future goal of setting up NGO in India.

Don't you think that that prince has to after all come from India? LOL.

 

[renuka]

My astrologer has recommended we perform the Swayamvara Parvathi mantra homam at a cost of Rs. 20,000 for timely marriage of daughter. I am feeling that maybe I can donate this money to a poor girl's marriage expenses.
What do the learned members of this forum think?
If I do want to go ahead with donating the money, how do I identify a suitable recipient. Are there still poor brahmins in Tamilnadu/Chennai?

Please share your thoughts.

Regards

Vanaja

Dear Madam,

Its a good decision to donate the money but it would be better if you donate without
having expectations that this act of donation would speed up your daughters marriage to happen.

As Raji Madam said..marriage can only happen when its the right time.

So please donate this amount to a poor girls marriage as a form of blessing for the poor girl.

I hope you dont mind me saying this..I have noted that many times the poor are helped becos others make them a pawn in the game to gain punyam or a form of pariharam..so the best is to help others without making the act of donation a transaction of any kind.

When it comes to marriage..the best time will always be the right time.

 

[Vanaja Mani]

I saw the Namma Veetu Kalyanam in TV where the sister in law consulted the girl if she is interested in a traditional marriage with a Madisar or a different type.. That Girls are being consulted and their likes and dislikes understood...So you will find your choice for your daughter..Wishing you all the very best

Thanks very much sir !

 

[Vanaja Mani]

vanajaji
I can see what ou are going through.
If you require any help in india, in delhi , bangalore or chennai pl. do not hesitate to send me a PM .I stay in delhi but visit the other places often because of my children or property interests.
I can always spare time for a good cause such as a girls marriage




I feel sometimes, parents who moved to western countries are out of touch with indian realities and how much things have changed.
they behave like parents of fifties and sixties and making demands on girls parents.


Parents in india have faced the realities of indian living and have moderated their behaviour and actions to some extent.
now , many are prepared to widen their search to atleast other brahmin communities if it is difficult in their subcastes.
education and jobs are priorities for bos and girls. also educated and working girls parents set terms to prospective grooms and their parents. many have developed a liberal mindset.
you might have different set of issues as your child has exposure to a different culture and the need for a prospective person to accept western liberal values. there are many boys who have worked a few years abroad and have post graduate degree from US univ and are working now in india. it should be pretty easy to locate a suitable person .
if you are prepared to search based on minimalist specs of decent education , job with liberal mindset and working in a metro of india.you can find good matches . I got my son and daughter married off on this basis,I do not regret my choices

I am very touched by your offer to help me. How do I send a PM to you?

Yes faced some horrible attitude from boys side here. Some of them are still stuck in the 60s.


I am happy and very encouraged that you could find suitable varans for your son and daughter in India. Do they live in India?

 

[prasad1]

Dear Vanajaji,
We live in USA, We too have a daughter who is very similar to your daughter. We too went through similar conditions.
There is a list put out by GLOBAL MATRI, it might be useful. You may send a PM to me about your daughter, and we will try to find a contact for you.
globalmatri.net

 

[vs_ramki1950]

dear madam...pls go ahead with the pooja.after long delay..i performed it for my son and he got married after 3 months. if u want to donate money give to any needy u can do that.but that in no way going to help ur daughters marriage. if poojas are considered to b waste then y do v hv temples. v can close guruvayur.tirupathi chidambaram and many more temples. this particular pooja will help u definitely.go ahead and help ur daughter

 

[Raji Ram]

I am surprise to read what Smt. Vanaja writes about parents of grooms in the U S of A! In the experience of my sister in law, she found

it very difficult to get tambram girls for her two sons, since no one was willing to relocate! Each of the boys chose a tall and fair Xtian girl!

All is well that ends well! eace:

 

[krish44]

vanajaji
your daughter is like any other indian brahmin girl except she has been brought up abroad. probably it is a blessing and any boy should be lucky to have a girl with such edu. qualifications and exposure to western world.it should be sensible to keep away from traditional types from tamilnadu and look elsewhere in india. there are many in top B schools such as IIM A,B,C who have been compelled to develop a modern mindset and are excellent performers workwise. many have a social commitment and work in the social sector. also they are not caste minded and have a liberal mindset. these guys can give space to girls to have careers of their choice besides pursue their interests
their salary levels are three or four times other MBAs and have more chances of getting placed in newyork and other places in US and sought after by mncs.
my one child is in singapore and other is shortly heading for jakartha for better pastures

 

[biswa]

I am surprise to read what Smt. Vanaja writes about parents of grooms in the U S of A! In the experience of my sister in law, she found

it very difficult to get tambram girls for her two sons, since no one was willing to relocate! Each of the boys chose a tall and fair Xtian girl!

All is well that ends well! eace:

RRji, I am quite glad that the boys did not have to settle for stout and dark Indians.

Unfortunately too many of our country people are like that. Who will give them hope? How will they compete against the tall and fair Xtians?

 

[tbs]

She is a pure vegetarian and does not eat even eggs. She does not drink or party. With great difficulty we have convinced her that she cannot expect her husband to be vegetarian or a teetotaller even among brahmins.

hi vanaga mani,

i have a daughter like yours....she is med school in USA...she born in india and raised in USA...we moved to USA when she was

in high school..she did high school and undergraduate here in USA..now she is studying MD pgme in USA...we go through the same

situation ..now we are moral dilemma too...but we are well prepared which ever is going to happen...i know 1 story of iyengar

family in USA...very orthodox and prefer ONLY PARTICULAR KALAI FOR THEIR daughter..they got nice boy...but finally gal

completely rejected parents proposal and proceeding with local christian boy...they have 2 daughters..now these 2 tamil

brahmin daughters are marrying from other cultures...both parents are shocked....THEY VERY PROUD AND RIGID ABOUT

THEIR PARTICULAR VAISHNAVA KALAI...now never materialised their wishes...now they convinced and accepted the reality...

wht to do?...no option...same moral dilemma in many USA tambrahm families....so you are NOT ONLY LIKE THIS....

but also like you many others...

 

[biswa]

It seems quite natural that Americans (as these 2nd gen people are) will marry Americans. And Americans dont believe in the caste system (at least the Indian version). They may still believe in the American caste system and marry only whites, Jews etc. At least be thankful that they usually dont marry Blacks, Mexicans etc.

I think the parents sowed the seeds for all these by migrating to the US and producing American children. You will have to lay on the bed you made. Why does the moral dilemma come only for marriage of children? The moral dilemma should have come at the time of immigration. No doubt there will be both positive and negative consequences of leaving your home country.

I am in the same boat myself, but at least I have realistic expectations. Caste is gone. Race may become a non-factor as well.

 

[tbs]

It seems quite natural that Americans (as these 2nd gen people are) will marry Americans. And Americans dont believe in the caste system (at least the Indian version). They may still believe in the American caste system and marry only whites, Jews etc. At least be thankful that they usually dont marry Blacks, Mexicans etc.

I think the parents sowed the seeds for all these by migrating to the US and producing American children. You will have to lay on the bed you made. Why does the moral dilemma come only for marriage of children? The moral dilemma should have come at the time of immigration. No doubt there will be both positive and negative consequences of leaving your home country.

I am in the same boat myself, but at least I have realistic expectations. Caste is gone. Race may become a non-factor as well.

hi

recently i attended a wedding...an indian guju gal married a black guy...it started already...even a nepali boy married a black gal...

still majority prefers whites only....

 

[krish44]

hi vanaga mani,

i have a daughter like yours....she is med school in USA...she born in india and raised in USA...we moved to USA when she was

in high school..she did high school and undergraduate here in USA..now she is studying MD pgme in USA...we go through the same

situation ..now we are moral dilemma too...but we are well prepared which ever is going to happen...i know 1 story of iyengar

family in USA...very orthodox and prefer ONLY PARTICULAR KALAI FOR THEIR daughter..they got nice boy...but finally gal

completely rejected parents proposal and proceeding with local christian boy...they have 2 daughters..now these 2 tamil

brahmin daughters are marrying from other cultures...both parents are shocked....THEY VERY PROUD AND RIGID ABOUT

THEIR PARTICULAR VAISHNAVA KALAI...now never materialised their wishes...now they convinced and accepted the reality...

wht to do?...no option...same moral dilemma in many USA tambrahm families....so you are NOT ONLY LIKE THIS....

but also like you many others...

I can see your dilemma. India has changed a lot. I come across americanised indian boys heading for india in search of jobs in social sector. THey are working for NGOs in mumbai. My school mate in US was fretting about his son who was floating around in some poor south american country on similar missions. they are unable to come to terms with american way of living and high material pursuits.
these guys are full of ideailsm and would like to work for a cause to make a difference in lives of the poor.
also many educated in australia, newzealand prefer to work in singapore, south east asia or bangalore in india in IT and finance sector
MNCs are employing them in large numbers. some reverse movements are taking place.
I met an indian couple in chennai who had spent years in US in computer industry and returned to be near their relatives and also wanting to get back to their roots.how much they would be able to become comfortable in india is yet to be seen .while their daughter doing MD in US refused to return , the son preferred to get back to india at least temporarily 'I do not know if their action is progressive or regressive. their kids might become mixed up and good possibility will have adjustment problems. it is difficult to put the clock back and undo all that has been done.probably those who went to US 40-50 yrs back did not realise what would happen to their kids later .

 

[Vanaja Mani]

I can see your dilemma. India has changed a lot. I come across americanised indian boys heading for india in search of jobs in social sector. THey are working for NGOs in mumbai. My school mate in US was fretting about his son who was floating around in some poor south american country on similar missions. they are unable to come to terms with american way of living and high material pursuits.
these guys are full of ideailsm and would like to work for a cause to make a difference in lives of the poor.
also many educated in australia, newzealand prefer to work in singapore, south east asia or bangalore in india in IT and finance sector
MNCs are employing them in large numbers. some reverse movements are taking place.

Hmm. I am yet to come across these boys. All I have experienced are boys who are not willing to spend more than two weeks in India and have no attachment to their homeland.

I do agree the kids end up being confused about their identity. In most cases, either the husband or the wife were against returning to India even when the kids adjustment issues were considered and rejected. Some people are thinking that returning to India is a loss of face among relatives. They would suffer here in innumerable ways than return. Ultimately the kids pay the price of parents indecision or wrong decision.

 

[krish44]

It seems quite natural that Americans (as these 2nd gen people are) will marry Americans. And Americans dont believe in the caste system (at least the Indian version). They may still believe in the American caste system and marry only whites, Jews etc. At least be thankful that they usually dont marry Blacks, Mexicans etc.

I think the parents sowed the seeds for all these by migrating to the US and producing American children. You will have to lay on the bed you made. Why does the moral dilemma come only for marriage of children? The moral dilemma should have come at the time of immigration. No doubt there will be both positive and negative consequences of leaving your home country.

I am in the same boat myself, but at least I have realistic expectations. Caste is gone. Race may become a non-factor as well.

biswaji
it is wise to optimise the positives and reduce the negatives. in name of realism why give up what is indian ?how many jews give up their religion. frankly , one need not be a casteist .at least one could choose other indians in US. in india lot of people are crossing the state boundaries and getting married. In delhi TB girls are marrying punjabi boys.I would be comfortable if my extended family members marry local indians in delhi instead of those from tamilnadu due to similarities of lifestyle and upbringing. they have more chances of hitting it off.these couple automatically develop a liberal mindset and have a better give and take approach to life. caste matters very little in metros in north . only tamil nadu is totally casteist due to dravidian movement and reservation policies.foreign brahmins can give it a miss

 

[biswa]

Yup there are a lot of 2 States movies in real life since the Punju guys seem to have a thing for TB girls and vice versa. Sometimes maybe it works the other way too?

When you said "why give up what is Indian", I think you answered your own question. The same question could be asked of the TB girls in Delhi. Why give up on your TB background?

The answer is obvious, that I can try to explain via high school chemistry. The probability of a reaction happening is directly proportional to the concentration of the reactants. If there were lots of TBs roaming around Delhi, there would be more chance of staying within the community. Since there are lot of Punjabi molecules in the mix, some of them tend to react with the TBs.

I think exactly the same argument holds in America. It is relatively easy to get a hold of and marry an American. So why not?

 

[biswa]

hi

recently i attended a wedding...an indian guju gal married a black guy...it started already...even a nepali boy married a black gal...

still majority prefers whites only....

I think the child of the nepali boy/black gal may be quite good looking. TBS garu, you should let us know after the event.

 

[tbs]

I think the child of the nepali boy/black gal may be quite good looking. TBS garu, you should let us know after the event.

hi

still our community prefers whites than black/hispanics...i never had chance to meet a indian vs hispanic....even many see

blacks can integrate with indian family....i saw a recent movie...i dont remember the name...a guju family from africa move

to usa...the guju gal try to follow a black boy...due to similar back ground in africa...i think its Meera nair's movie...

 

[Vanaja Mani]

" Missisippi Masala" is the name of the movie.

 

[tbs]

" Missisippi Masala" is the name of the movie.

hi

yes.... thanks....a beautiful story....i think the heroine is bengali gal and the boy is washington...

 

[biswa]

In CA there are plenty of Indian + Hispanics. All the Punjabis who have been in Central Valley for 50+ years, look, behave and marry like Hispanics. Not much to distinguish in brown skin color.