Musings/Confusions of a TamBram Woman– part II

[SwamiTaBra]

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I have been reading many articles and books on the subject of Smarthas, Vaishnavas and Madhvas. I give below the summery of my understanding of the subject. I request the learnered members to comment and correct the same if they find any factual error.

All those Brahmins who are followers of Vedic rituals enunciated in Sruthi and Smrithi are called Smarthas. It is an acknowledged fact that Sri Ramanuja, Sri Vedanta Desika and Sri Manavala Mamunigal , are vaitheega Brahmins by caste, belonged to the Vadama Smartha community and Periya Nambi, (Mahapoorna) belonged to Smartha Brihacharanam . All of them are Vaishnavas, worshipers of Sri Mahavishnu. Even Sri Madhvacharya was a Smartha by birth. Sri Sankaracharya was a Smartha and he has written many scriptures on Vishnu. The philosophical differences came to fore only when the three acharyas wrote their (mahabhashyas) intrepretations to Upanishads, Brahmasutras and Bhagavad Gita (Prasthanatrayi). And the followers divided into Advaitins, Sri Vaishnavas and Madhvas. Sect markings on their bodies appeared only after this to identify their philosophical adherence.
Smarthas are not Saivites or the followers of Saiva Siddhantha. Smarthas accept the six systems of philosophy (Shad Darshanas) ie: Nyaya, Vaisesika, Samkhya, Yoga, Poorva Mimamsa and Uttara Mimasa (Vedanta).

Regards,
Brahmanyan,
Bangalore.

Good. You have summed up nicely. Some elaboration could also help.

Regards,
Swami

 

[Brahmanyan]

: Musings/Confusions of a TamBram Woman– part II

Good. You have summed up nicely. Some elaboration could also help.

Regards,
Swami

Dear Sri Swami,

Yes. I shall try the same soon,
Regards,
Brahmanyan,
Bangalore.

 

[sangom]

I have been reading many articles and books on the subject of Smarthas, Vaishnavas and Madhvas. I give below the summery of my understanding of the subject. I request the learnered members to comment and correct the same if they find any factual error.

All those Brahmins who are followers of Vedic rituals enunciated in Sruthi and Smrithi are called Smarthas. It is an acknowledged fact that Sri Ramanuja, Sri Vedanta Desika and Sri Manavala Mamunigal , are vaitheega Brahmins by caste, belonged to the Vadama Smartha community and Periya Nambi, (Mahapoorna) belonged to Smartha Brihacharanam . All of them are Vaishnavas, worshipers of Sri Mahavishnu. Even Sri Madhvacharya was a Smartha by birth. Sri Sankaracharya was a Smartha and he has written many scriptures on Vishnu. The philosophical differences came to fore only when the three acharyas wrote their (mahabhashyas) intrepretations to Upanishads, Brahmasutras and Bhagavad Gita (Prasthanatrayi). And the followers divided into Advaitins, Sri Vaishnavas and Madhvas. Sect markings on their bodies appeared only after this to identify their philosophical adherence.
Smarthas are not Saivites or the followers of Saiva Siddhantha. Smarthas accept the six systems of philosophy (Shad Darshanas) ie: Nyaya, Vaisesika, Samkhya, Yoga, Poorva Mimamsa and Uttara Mimasa (Vedanta).

Regards,
Brahmanyan,
Bangalore.

Dear Shri Brahmanyan,

A few doubts:

1. pūrvamīmāṃsā, in the sense of vaidīkā rituals, are followed by smārtās, śrīvaiṣṇavas as well as mādhvās. To that extent all of them follow the smṛtis also.

2. smārtās accept the six matas (ṣaṇmata) believed to have been established (refined) by ādiśaṃkara; but as regards the six darśanas or systems of philosophy, it appears that ādiśaṃkara's advaita did not approve nyāya, vaiśeṣika, sāṃkhya, as well as yoga but tried to establish itself as the uttara mīmāṃsā replacing the others.

 

[Brahmanyan]

Musings/Confusions of a TamBram Woman– part II

Dear Shri Brahmanyan,

A few doubts:

1. pūrvamīmāṃsā, in the sense of vaidīkā rituals, are followed by smārtās, śrīvaiṣṇavas as well as mādhvās. To that extent all of them follow the smṛtis also.

2. smārtās accept the six matas (ṣaṇmata) believed to have been established (refined) by ādiśaṃkara; but as regards the six darśanas or systems of philosophy, it appears that ādiśaṃkara's advaita did not approve nyāya, vaiśeṣika, sāṃkhya, as well as yoga but tried to establish itself as the uttara mīmāṃsā replacing the others.

Dear Sri Sangom,

I agree with your views. But with my limited knowledge of the subject, I could not find any writing to suggest that Sri Sankaracharya did not approve or oppose the Six Dharsanas. In fact Sri Sankaracharya has not rejected Yoga and Samkya in his commentary to Bhagvad Gita. But I had read that in his Bhashya to Brahma Sutras, Sri Sankaracharya has been critical on Samkya. Whereas Sri Gaudapada, guru of Sri Sankara and proponent Advaitha Vedantha had written a Commentary on the Samkhya Karika. Ofcourse there is so much of written material attributed to Sri Sankara and Advaitha philosophy, I doubt any one could read all of them to understand his Advaitha vedantha fully.

To be honest, more I read, I get confused more. However as a seeker of knowledge I could not stop the temptation.

Regards,
Brahmanyan,
Bangalore.

 

[kameshratnam]

My experiences of temples in mylapore and a few other places have been bad.

1. Kapali temple: Priests are commercialized too much. Try the "Golden chariot" and you will see people surrounding you and asking for money. Sir..i am the watchman..i am the sweeper etc.
2. Adyar Ananthapadmanabhaswami temple: there is a tall priest who shd be around 30 years..he just throws the archana thattu that belongs to the temple on the floor and even when u say ur name etc for archanai.. he doesnt say it clearly...In tamizh its called Ena dano velai

Money rules

 

[Brahmanyan]

Musings/Confusions of a TamBram Woman– part II

My experiences of temples in mylapore and a few other places have been bad.

1. Kapali temple: Priests are commercialized too much. Try the "Golden chariot" and you will see people surrounding you and asking for money. Sir..i am the watchman..i am the sweeper etc.
2. Adyar Ananthapadmanabhaswami temple: there is a tall priest who shd be around 30 years..he just throws the archana thattu that belongs to the temple on the floor and even when u say ur name etc for archanai.. he doesnt say it clearly...In tamizh its called Ena dano velai

Money rules

Dear Sri "kameshratnam",

I appreciate your annoyance on the crowding and nagging of Priests and Temple staff during festivals for money. But that is the only occasion for these poorly paid people to get some money to spend. The Priests and Temple staff are perhaps the most lowly paid people employed in Temples maintained by HRE Board. We spend so much money on conveyance, food in restaurants and entertainment, but don't you think it is only fair to pay some amount on "charity" to people who spend their life time to take care of the regular Pooja and maintenance of our Temples. Compare this to the respect and comforts given to priests in other religions in their places of worship.
I found Temples managed by Private trustees and Adeenams are better managed.
Regards,
Brahmanyan,
Bangalore.

 

[kameshratnam]

Dear Sri Brahmanyan,

Kapali Temple draws numerous visitors on any given day. So there is no shortage of any sort of money for the priests. Yes, i too agree that the HR & CE pays very low salaries but the priests get good money from the kanikkais being offered them on the deeparadhanai thattu.

You quoted about Privately managed temples: Sri Anantha padmanabaswami temple in adyar is managed by a trust. I find there is no devotion at all. They just utter mantras for the sake of it.
Bhakthi and Shraddhai is not at all there.

And even outside the temple, god only knows the quality and purity of the flowers which we buy.
I saw outside a temple in R A Puram where a dog was drinking water from the same vessel which was used by the rope to tie the flowers

Kamesh

 

[B.Krishnamurthy]

I want to share my experience.Some years before my wife expressed a desire to visit LORD RANGANATHA Temple, Srirangam when we visited our native place THIRUVANAIKOIL. (Since I was a resident of THIRUVANAIKOIL and studied in SRIRANGAM HIGH SCHOOL I HAVE VISITED THIS TEMPLE NUMBER OF TIMES in my childhood. MY wife was born and brought up in NAGPUR and visited SOUTH INDIA only after our marriage.) We went inside the temple during 'DHARMA SEVA' period.
I think there was still 15 minutes left,but the person near the entrance informed that
'Dharma Darisanam' period is over and insisted that visitors should go and get entrance tickets.Persons ahead of me were arguing but he was not relenting.I informed my wife that We will visit the temple someother day as I am against visiting any temple by purchasing entrance tickets.My wife requested me to go and get the tickets.While getting into the temple I gave the receipt given to me at the main entrance for keeping our footwear by mistake.The person manning the entrance also accepted it.
After we came out of the temple, the person in charge refused to return our footwear on the strength of entrance tickets to visit LORD RANGANATHA .We had to spend some anxious moments as we were told to give indemnity BOND. After half an hour or so ,some local people saw our plight, intervened and we got our footwear.We visit Temples to get mental peace, but not to get mentally disturbed.That was the last occasion I visited the Srirangam Temple.
I visit Srirangam often,but worship LORD RANGANATHA from the Main entrance Gopuram,and if time and health permits I take a round of CHITRA STREET making a full pradhshinam of the TEMPLE.
Recently I visited "VAIDHEESWARAN KOIL' which is our kula deivam.Every thing has been given on contract basis to persons who basically do not believe in GOD. The attitude of Kurukkal in the temple was also not satisfactory.
In the circumstances I avoid visiting temples and say my 'Prayers' in the house.
There is no point in critising Temple Administration or anyone else.

 

[kameshratnam]

I have not come across priests who are devoted and do everything in a very calm manner. Everything has a rate today. Right from ceremonies to poojas are all rate fixed. The best way is to remain at home and say your prayers.

 

[pannvalan]

Brahmanyan,

I appreciate your concise and precise statements in this thread. Long live Brahmanyan!

 

[ganeshrev]

I always thought temples are basically a good way of implementing socialism - It is not god we are offering money and other offerings to - It is for various people/humans who sell flowers, Gurukkals and towards meeting other administrative expenses of the temple.

So here the receivers are not hurt (because they dont think they receive money for themselves , they receive on behalf of god) .The common people shell out more money due to selfishness without their knowledge - They want blessing by offering more to god.basically they indirectly do Dhanams without expecting any thing from the Humans who man the temple , but only from God!

So it is a nice socialist setup our ancestors have devised - to unknowingly distribute wealth from the haves to have nots....

But today, it is not the need in big temples, it is the greed... This is my grouse.

Thanks
Revathi

 

[sangom]

I always thought temples are basically a good way of implementing socialism - It is not god we are offering money and other offerings to - It is for various people/humans who sell flowers, Gurukkals and towards meeting other administrative expenses of the temple.

So here the receivers are not hurt (because they dont think they receive money for themselves , they receive on behalf of god) .The common people shell out more money due to selfishness without their knowledge - They want blessing by offering more to god.basically they indirectly do Dhanams without expecting any thing from the Humans who man the temple , but only from God!

So it is a nice socialist setup our ancestors have devised - to unknowingly distribute wealth from the haves to have nots....

But today, it is not the need in big temples, it is the greed... This is my grouse.

Thanks
Revathi

Smt. Revathi,

If we were to look at this issue from the pov you make, the amount spent on any temple visit is always benefitting some less fortunate person in some form. Right from the auto, taxi to go to the temple, the footwear keeper/s, flower/garland/archanai items sellers, take any item, it perhaps helps some poor person and even his/her family. Where greed starts and normal want ends is a very blurred line; just as all the organized work force is continuously demanding wage increases, these people who depend for their livelihood on the "temple business" also are affected by inflation, plus, they also aspire to improve the comforts of life, for which there is no upper limit.

In many temples all the lucrative items are given on tender basis but the tenderer also employs some poor fellows. In such cases the lion's share of the increases income goes to the temple and the contractor and very little trickles down to the poor workers.

 

[ganeshrev]

Shri Sangom Sir,

I appreciate your point - Inflation has its effect.

But if you look at my original post, what I want to convey is resorting to methods that are adharma - Cheating, Lying etc.due to greed. Why not change the way the temples are run and change the current situations if contractors rule the way things are done..Pay more - But collect legitimately, knowingly....

But I know I have got answers regarding this from elders in this Thread that nothing can be done..sigh......except avoiding going to temple.....

 

[Brahmanyan]

Musings/Confusions of a TamBram Woman– part II

I always thought temples are basically a good way of implementing socialism - It is not god we are offering money and other offerings to - It is for various people/humans who sell flowers, Gurukkals and towards meeting other administrative expenses of the temple.

So here the receivers are not hurt (because they dont think they receive money for themselves , they receive on behalf of god) .The common people shell out more money due to selfishness without their knowledge - They want blessing by offering more to god.basically they indirectly do Dhanams without expecting any thing from the Humans who man the temple , but only from God!

So it is a nice socialist setup our ancestors have devised - to unknowingly distribute wealth from the haves to have nots....

But today, it is not the need in big temples, it is the greed... This is my grouse.

Thanks
Revathi

Dear Smt Revathi,

When I read the recent posts on this thread I am reminded of that great reformer Maharshi Swami Dayanda Saraswathi, founder of Arya Samaj.

I like to to quote an interesting episode from the biography of Maharshi Dayandha Saraswathi, founder of Arya Samaj. As you know Swami Dayananda Saraswathi was a Gujarati Brahmin born in 1824. He was invested with Upanayanam at the age of eight and studied Vedas, like other brahmins of that time. Once when he had been to Siva Temple on a Sivarathri Day along with his father, he noticed a rat nibbling the holy offerings before the Lord and ran over the Shiva Linga unconcerned. He was rebuked by elders when he asked them why Lord could not defend himself from the menace of the little creature. This changed Dayananda's attitude towards Temple worship.
Maharshi Dayananda Saraswathi found his Guru in Swami Virjananda Saraswathi (a blind Sanyasi), who asked him to revive the Vedic Religion as enunciated in Vedas. A bold man that he was, he thundered "Go Back to Vedas". He found Arya Samaj and wrote his magnum opus "Sathyartha Praksh". He opposed Caste system by birth, untouchability and child marriage. He rejected idolatry, animal sacrifice, ancestor worship, pilgrimages, priest craft, offerings made in temples, on grounds that all these lacked Vedic sanction. He modernised the the Hindu Society by opening Dayananda Anglo Vedic Schools (DAV) in many places. He introduced the "Suddhi "movement for reconversion of Hindus who had gone to other religions.

Regards,
Brahmanyan,
Bangalore.

 

[ganeshrev]

Thanks Shri Brahmanyan Sir, for this interesting info

Also, only today, I know the expansion of DAV!

Namaskarams
Revathi

 

[Brahmanyan]

Musings/Confusions of a TamBram Woman– part II

Brahmanyan,

I appreciate your concise and precise statements in this thread. Long live Brahmanyan!

Dear Sri Pannvalan,

Appreciation coming from a scholarly veteran like you makes me happy and I am pleased to accept the same with utmost humility. It is my personal view that ultimate aim of all that we do in the name of religion is to turn us into good human being. Temple worship is one such method. When I get a God given opportunity to help a fellow human being I feel happy to oblige him/her what ever way I could. For me money has no value unless it is spent in the right way to help some one. It gives me inner feeling of happiness. As I grew older in age I realised that the basic qualities of "Love and Compassion" should ebb over all other reasons when it comes to help others, who are less fortunate than me. I thank God Almighty when such opportunity is given to me.
Though I have strong views on many issues in the threads I weigh my words before posting my views, for the fear of hurting some one's feelings.
Warm Regards,
Brahmanyan,
Bangalore.

 

[sangom]

...Though I have strong views on many issues in the threads I weigh my words before posting my views, for the fear of hurting some one's feelings.
Warm Regards,
Brahmanyan,
Bangalore.

Dear Shri Brahmanyan,

I request you to kindly shed your "mouna vratam" and express your views. I am sure that your views will be very valuable to many; also, even if your views are 'strong', I am sure that you will be able to couch them in sweet words.

 

[pannvalan]

I'm neither a scholar nor a veteran. (veteran by the standards of this forum is different - it is decided by the number of posts one makes).

Thanks for your kind clarification. Please post more sharing your valuable thoughts and experiences, without any inhibitions.

Coming to temples, Tamilnadu has the highest number of temples in the country, perhaps the world too. That's why 'gopuram' became the TN Govt's official logo.

When kings in the north built castles and palaces with public money, in TN, public money was utilised to construct temples.

Temples have the following functions.

1. Places of worship

2. Forum for Spiritual discourses and debates.

3. Venues for promotion of Literature, Music, Dance and other fine arts.

4. Treasury for storing the wealth of the country in the form of gold, silver, diamonds and gems.

5. Barns for storing food grains and other necessities like cloth (vasthrams) - similar to FCI godowns for buffer stocks

6. Meeting points for the lovers

7. Community Halls

8. Marriage Halls

9. Shelter for the poor at the time of natural calamities like floods, cyclone, famine etc.

10.Places used for any other purpose, including political decision-making (matralosanai koodam)

Unfortunately, we Tamilians have not understood the importance of temples in our social lives and started neglecting them in the last 150 years.

 

[ganeshrev]

I'm neither a scholar nor a veteran. (veteran by the standards of this forum is different - it is decided by the number of posts one makes).

Thanks for your kind clarification. Please post more sharing your valuable thoughts and experiences, without any inhibitions.

Coming to temples, Tamilnadu has the highest number of temples in the country, perhaps the world too. That's why 'gopuram' became the TN Govt's official logo.

When kings in the north built castles and palaces with public money, in TN, public money was utilised to construct temples.

Temples have the following functions.

1. .....
6. Meeting points for the lovers


Unfortunately, we Tamilians have not understood the importance of temples in our social lives and started neglecting them in the last 150 years.

Sure , some do for one of your points Just a joke

 

[SwamiTaBra]

I want to share my experience.Some years before my wife expressed a desire to visit LORD RANGANATHA Temple, Srirangam when we visited our native place THIRUVANAIKOIL. (Since I was a resident of THIRUVANAIKOIL and studied in SRIRANGAM HIGH SCHOOL I HAVE VISITED THIS TEMPLE NUMBER OF TIMES in my childhood. MY wife was born and brought up in NAGPUR and visited SOUTH INDIA only after our marriage.) We went inside the temple during 'DHARMA SEVA' period.
I think there was still 15 minutes left,but the person near the entrance informed that
'Dharma Darisanam' period is over and insisted that visitors should go and get entrance tickets.Persons ahead of me were arguing but he was not relenting.I informed my wife that We will visit the temple someother day as I am against visiting any temple by purchasing entrance tickets.My wife requested me to go and get the tickets.While getting into the temple I gave the receipt given to me at the main entrance for keeping our footwear by mistake.The person manning the entrance also accepted it.
After we came out of the temple, the person in charge refused to return our footwear on the strength of entrance tickets to visit LORD RANGANATHA .We had to spend some anxious moments as we were told to give indemnity BOND. After half an hour or so ,some local people saw our plight, intervened and we got our footwear.We visit Temples to get mental peace, but not to get mentally disturbed.That was the last occasion I visited the Srirangam Temple.
I visit Srirangam often,but worship LORD RANGANATHA from the Main entrance Gopuram,and if time and health permits I take a round of CHITRA STREET making a full pradhshinam of the TEMPLE.
Recently I visited "VAIDHEESWARAN KOIL' which is our kula deivam.Every thing has been given on contract basis to persons who basically do not believe in GOD. The attitude of Kurukkal in the temple was also not satisfactory.
In the circumstances I avoid visiting temples and say my 'Prayers' in the house.
There is no point in critising Temple Administration or anyone else.

In the early eighties, while I was at Trichy, a small fee (40 ps. if I am right) was collected of everyone to go to the top of Uchi Pilliyar Koil. Once while I was there there were a group of pilgrims from North India at the temple and they were adamant that they would not pay anything for the darshan of god. I clearly remember someone from them saying that it is not "chidiyaghaar", meaning a Zoo.

But with passage of time people have acquiesced to all that. But even today the archana ticket is sometimes as low as Rs.2/-

When whole of the society has turned materialistic, why should those employed at the temples be singled out...

Rgds.
Swami

 

[uma maheswari mahadevan]

Let us look at the issue from the perspective of a bakth. I too don't like the way the temples are run (for that matter, the country is run, the schools are run, the hospitals are run etc.). I go to temple to see god whom I love very much. If my love is intense, I overlook all the hurdles, hardships, even humiliation on my way. If you think like this, you will have peace of mind and happiness after visiting a temple.

 

[zunedune]

This is the typical mentality of a common temple going junta. This indifference and adjustment to hurdles are taken as advantage by the unscrupulous and uncouth archagars and management. Following the words of Swami Vivekananda (take good from wherever it sources), we should learn the lesson from christianity here. It's said in the bible that Jesus slashed the selfish jews in temple of God. We don't have to get violent but atleast be assertive and question them authoritatively in front of others. We should imbibe a sense of shame on them. We are brought up from our young age with a sense of entitlement which is the bane of our society. These archagars & temple administrators are at a different level when it comes to their sense of entitlements. They think they have an authority of some sort and go on about their way of conduct. They are no different from the Govt Employees bribing the public and going on in their life with their heads on their shoulders. We should atleast make these people shameful in front of everyone. How dare they cause deteriorate the peaceful atmosphere of a temple with their selfish and uncouth behaviors. I bet that we would attain more inner peace out of questioning them than consoling ourselves to be indifferent and go on with prayers. How is it possible to pray when there is a pralayam of psychological trauma caused by the temple upkeepers? We should take a vow to ourselves to do atleast an aota of contribution in confronting the malicious entities infesting our temples today.