Periyar:Hero or Villain?

[murali]

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goundamani sir,
i understand your view point.But then the very notion of a brahmana in the modern world makes no sense.

I think in a generation,most brahmanas might merge in the general population.Only a few might remain.

These processes must have occured in the past.The caste system was fluid until the british came up with their censuses and classification.

Because brahmanas took to english education,there was a lot of heartburn.Non-brahmanas felt they were being marginalised.in govt and business.It is nonsense to say that the ruling elite was a closed group.

From Ashoka to Harihara and Bukka(vijayanagar empire) to Shivaji,many different castes became rulers.In practice,the caste system was not rigid.Perhaps only in the cow belt,the caste system was rigid.

In tamil nadu the mukkulothors were the indigenous martial caste.They were checked by the vellalas.mutharayars were powerful in tiruchi during one period.

There is a tamil proverb which says "palli padayachi aahi mudalinu chonnan".Even mudaliar is not a caste name found before 1000 years.I am not saying the system was perfect.but there was mobility.

Nor were the same brahmana groups dominating.every one passes through tides of ascendancy and fall.

Brahmanas represented an ideal.Hinduism is an ethical/ecological system.

I think if you carefully sift suresh sir's argument,this is what he is trying to convey.

Today everyone has opportunities.But ultimately each is the master of his destiny.

I can watch porn or debate in this forum or use the web for my professional development.I can do all of them.It is up to each to decide the quantum of time and effort .

i think in some distant past,a certain crystallisation took place in india.it was not uniform throughout india.perhaps racial factors were also involved.But it was not the only or main factor.Intellectual,linguistic,ethical/ecological factors contributed to the evolution and they still contribute.

we look up at some one who is sharp,intelligent,purposeful.

I think you statements on slums were melodramatic.There are economic/cultural inhibitions.The saudi muslims dont share their oil wealth with somalis.Rich white americans marry among themselves.

most dominant positions in the top echelons of establishment(govt,judiciary) are still held by whites in US.

Brahmanas are numerically small in many parts of india.They have to tolerate the practices of the majority.

In Tamil nadu,we are found in significant numbers only in river banks.we never ploughed the land.land grants were given by kings.we had minimal influence outside our agrahaarams.even there we had to accept the social practices of the dominant castes like vellalas and thevars.It were they who supported the brahminical structure.
Until a few decades back, many of us had lands in our native villages.
The religion we call as hinduism has a complex structure.It is continually evolving.One should not be dogmatic in making assertions about hinduism.

I am not contesting your observations about the 'lowest' within hinduism.Their position has to improve.

 

[hariharan1972]

Points to ponder



Mr Goundamani,

I disagree with your comments which suggest that there cannot be a private domain for an individual and he cannot have his own personal likes & dislikes & society will trespass into his personal life unabashedly.

Quote :

You do have the right to decide who to allow inside your house hariharan.But will you make that decision based on caste? Will you only allow brahmins friends and disallow brahmin friends to enter your house? What would you think about persons who do so?

If you talk about individual rights at home, then non-brahmins also would say that they have individual rights to hate and detest brahmins and never to have them as friends. Will you accept that rights also?

The moment you agree that any individual has the right to decide who should be his guests – period, end of argument. I agree that this decision is best not made based on caste, but even if it’s done, my point is that this is the function of the individual’s sensibility. We may never know the reason why that individual is making that choice – is it out of his own volition or are they ‘other pressures’ working on him – like for instance acceptability to his parents. So to force something down the throat of all generations, is not the way to go, in my opinion.

Societal changes need time. Social interactions change with every generation. Many of the past generations’ beliefs have been pooh-poohed by the current and the same will be done by the future generation too. Legacies are passed on every generation to the next, but the incumbent generation decides what is to be pursued.

I will also like to take a totally different line.

What does a non-brahmin get by being admitted into a Brahmin house ? Does that represent “Nirvana” for him ? Does it make him any more acceptable in the public domain than what he is already ? I feel we are being more insensitive to the non-brahmin by making him some kind of an object without a mind of his own…Does he also not know “madiyadhar vassal midhikka vendam”….Why should he long for entering into a brahmins’ house as if it is some kind of a pearly gate to heaven ? Please let us not denigrate his achievements and social status.

If I was one of those who would make my choice in the PRIVATE DOMAIN based on caste & if for that reason non-brahmins would hate me & detest me, I couldn’t care less. The fact of the matter is, in my personal domain, as I said previously as well, I have different “lakshman rekhas” for different people, NOT BASED ON CASTE, BUT BASED ON MY COMFORT WITH THAT INDIVIDUAL. In that process, I may not be allowing some one but allow some one else.

Quote :

Society frowns at such behavior hariharan.They hate caste based discrimination.When you live in a society,you have to respect their views.maintaining a 'holier than thou' attutude will lead to destruction of brahmins and will make the whole society to hate them.

What is Society ? Am I not part of it ? Does the society not have a responsibility to “respect” my personal choices ? I can’t decide who sits next to me in the bus, but can I not decide who will sit with my in my dining table ? If I decide that Society will frown – if I allow “Society” to make that choice, it will give me a crown is it? (kavidha, kavidha).

You seem to ignore the fact that all Brahmins DO NOT/ CANNOT DISCRIMINATE in the PUBLIC DOMAIN. That is the fact of the matter. If anyone still wants to DISCRIMINATE, the market forces will REJECT him.

But please let us not trespass into the private lives of individuals. Even for a minute if I assume that it becomes MANDATORY for all Brahmins to host non-brahmins in their houses, then, what next ? Will you call Brahmins discriminating coz they served him with “Vatha Kozhambu” and not “Chicken Biriyani” ? To what levels will we continue to legislate to “force fit” someone in someone’s private life ?

In summary, all that I am saying is that let us maintain our “PUBLIC DOMAIN” neat & clean & allow the sensibilities of individuals to mature on their own in their PRIVATE DOMAIN – Some are like “malli” which flowers every night & some could be “kurunjis” which flowers once in 12 years.

Quote :

This argument gets into merit VS social justice debate.

Proponents of merit argue like what you did.Proponents of social justice argue that the 'merit' you talk about was acquired by centuries of oppression.We all know that dalits were prevented from getting education and jobs for centuries.Now suddenly if we ask them to compete on merit,how will they compete on merit?

“Suddenly” – One of the synonyms of “Suddenly” is “Unexpectedly”…which means that people were caught napping or not having foresight. What has happened suddenly ? Has Globalization happened suddenly ? Naw…we saw it coming – Guys who were awake caught the gravy train & guys who were sleeping missed it.

“Merit acquired by Centuries of oppression” – This is again a myth. How relevant is what I have learned in ’96 in today’s scenario ? Zilch !!!! What I do today has got nothing to do with what I am professionally trained for !!! So how am I managing ? I am making constant adjustments to my skill set and working continuously to add upon it !!! What is allowing me to do it ? The base I got !!!!

So the answer lies in getting a strong foundation ? Think of the ‘utility’ of investing Rs. 8000 crores in Primary education vis-à-vis creating 54% more capacity in 5 odd IIMs ? Have we got our priorities right ?

The apologists of reservation are only looking at the fat pay cheques of the IIMs / IITs and not looking at the quality of the foundational education those guys got which enabled them to get their careers on ‘over drive’. If I don’t even know to drive a TVS 50, what will I do with the keys of a Merc ? Forget the caste equations for a minute – Is the quality of education same between urban & rural areas ? Is the quality of education same between Govt & Private schools ? Why do we need so many curriculums – central, state, matriculation !!! Does a guy who studied in a tamil medium feel confident when he moves to college ? Why there is so much variation & what are we doing to address it ?

If only the BPO industry hadn’t come to the rescue, there is no career in India for a “BASIC GRADUATE” – Why will the industry need just a B.A, B.Com, B.Sc ? If not for the BPO industry where will these guys be accommodated ? There are no easy answers.

By engaging the “politics of reservation” we are making a big mistake – We are not telling the truth to who doesn’t make the cut on quality ? We are giving him a false sense of security that ‘don’t worry, your caste is the ONLY ticket you need to progress in your career’. The market forces today couldn’t care less about someone’s caste – what matters is quality. And if that is allowed to be compromised, there will be no Market & no need for reservations as well.

About EVR & Dravida Clan – Your footer is most apt for them….They are not pursuing the goal of “Caste irrelevance & Merit enhancement” but are firm in their path chosen – “Anti-Brahmanism”

 

[silverfox]

Dear Hariharan:
Excellent observations and arguments.
lotus_quartz:
I am terribly sorry to learn of your mom's passing away during your school year. I hope I didn't hurt your feelings when I mentioned about you not learning Tamil. Perhaps I was too hasty; I apologize.


<<<My family fought a long and tough battle (in North) to come up in life amidst all odds. Mother passed away while we were school kids. With no access to tamil teachers, obviously we ended up being tamil illiterate. >>

 

[goundamani]

The moment you agree that any individual has the right to decide who should be his guests – period, end of argument. I agree that this decision is best not made based on caste, but even if it’s done, my point is that this is the function of the individual’s sensibility. We may never know the reason why that individual is making that choice – is it out of his own volition or are they ‘other pressures’ working on him – like for instance acceptability to his parents. So to force something down the throat of all generations, is not the way to go, in my opinion.

Dear Hariharan,

I am afraid that it is not as simple as that.The moment a person refuses to admit another person into his house, because of caste, it is not period.It is not the end of argument. Rather it indicates the birth of a revolutionary. The person who was thus declined entry into a house, gets awakened and becomes another ambethkar or periyar.

Periyar was thrown out of a sathiram in kasi because he was a non-brahmin.That sathiram was the private property of brahmins.It was donated to them by chettirars in TN and they had all rights to throw non-brahmins out.Once they threw periyar out, it was not period.It was not the end of argument.It signalled a beginning of a new argument.That one single incident,where brahmins were legally right, made one EVRamaswamy,who was a staunch hindu at that time, to start detesting brahmins.He launched a historic movement after that and brahmins of many generations are still paying the price for the act of a handful of brahmins on that fateful day in kasi.I dont know further how many generations will continue to pay the price for this one single act.

A similiar incident happened to ambedhkar.See the following illustration of what happened to ambedhkar.

Do you see the pain,hurt and anguish in eyes of the father of our constitution?He was well dressed.He was more educated than everybody in that office.But see the treatment given to this human being, because of his caste.

This moment signalled the birth of ambedhkar,a revolutionary.Such incidents make people see satan face to face.At such when moments a person realises that he has been insulted because of his birth, beause of his caste, a metamorphasis happens inside him. He becomes an awakened human being.

Two such incidents, two such moments created two revolutionaries.In all these incidents as you said 'brahmins were exercising their individual right to "decide who should be their guests " and after exercising their rights they thought "period, end of argument".

It wasnt.

They were wrong.

(Will continue)

 

[goundamani]

I will also like to take a totally different line.

What does a non-brahmin get by being admitted into a Brahmin house ? Does that represent “Nirvana” for him ? Does it make him any more acceptable in the public domain than what he is already ? I feel we are being more insensitive to the non-brahmin by making him some kind of an object without a mind of his own…Does he also not know “madiyadhar vassal midhikka vendam”….Why should he long for entering into a brahmins’ house as if it is some kind of a pearly gate to heaven ? Please let us not denigrate his achievements and social status.

No Hariharan, you are wrong.

The non-brahmin doesnt think that he attains salvation by entering a 'brahmins house'.He doesnt think that the brahmin is god and by entering his house, he attains something,some achievement.

He considers this person to be a fellow human being like him.He considers him to be an equal. At many times, he wouldnt even realize that his friend is a brahmin until he enters his house and is denied entry.At that moment he realizes that his friend's caste and that he has been humiliated beause of his birth, because of his ancestors, because of his family and caste.

Nobody enters a brahmins house to get accepted.In fact nobody enters a brahmins house.They enter a friend's house, a buddy's house,a collegue's house.But if we show him that it is not a buddy's house, but a brahmin's house and he is not a friend in our house, but an untouchable............

You have killed a friend in this moment.

You have poured the venom of anti-brahminism in his mind.A deep hatred and anger will be created in his mind.Not against the person who did this, but against the perpetuator's caste.He wont just hate this person, but he will hate the entire clan and caste of this person.

He thinks of us as a normal human being and visits our house.He doesnt come to our house to attain salvation or nirvana.He thinks us as a chum and buddy.Its upto us to treat him like one or like an untouchable.

If I was one of those who would make my choice in the PRIVATE DOMAIN based on caste & if for that reason non-brahmins would hate me & detest me, I couldn’t care less. The fact of the matter is, in my personal domain, as I said previously as well, I have different “lakshman rekhas” for different people, NOT BASED ON CASTE, BUT BASED ON MY COMFORT WITH THAT INDIVIDUAL. In that process, I may not be allowing some one but allow some one else.

Is it?Dont you care?Dont you feel sad and hurt when people abuse brahmins and insult them?Dont you participate in forums and write pages and pages about "why this hatred exists,brahmins are discriminated in movies, schools, public life ,they are chased out of TN etc. etc?"

You made your choice on private domain.See how it comes back.It comes back with much more velocity and force.we should not forget newton's third law of motion" every action has an equal and opposite reaction".In this instance, it is much more stronger and violent reaction.

One reaps what he sows.If one sows love, he will reap love.If one sows insults and humiliation, he will reap back only contempt and insults.

 

[goundamani]

What is Society ? Am I not part of it ? Does the society not have a responsibility to “respect” my personal choices ? I can’t decide who sits next to me in the bus, but can I not decide who will sit with my in my dining table ? If I decide that Society will frown – if I allow “Society” to make that choice, it will give me a crown is it? (kavidha, kavidha).
You seem to ignore the fact that all Brahmins DO NOT/ CANNOT DISCRIMINATE in the PUBLIC DOMAIN. That is the fact of the matter. If anyone still wants to DISCRIMINATE, the market forces will REJECT him.

But please let us not trespass into the private lives of individuals. Even for a minute if I assume that it becomes MANDATORY for all Brahmins to host non-brahmins in their houses, then, what next ? Will you call Brahmins discriminating coz they served him with “Vatha Kozhambu” and not “Chicken Biriyani” ? To what levels will we continue to legislate to “force fit” someone in someone’s private life ?

In summary, all that I am saying is that let us maintain our “PUBLIC DOMAIN” neat & clean & allow the sensibilities of individuals to mature on their own in their PRIVATE DOMAIN – Some are like “malli” which flowers every night & some could be “kurunjis” which flowers once in 12 years.

A person has the right not to wash his hands and legs after using the restroom.
Allow us the right to say that he stinks.

What else to say?

 

[goundamani]

-Duplicate post.edited by author-

 

[mrifan]

Follow the leaders

Brahmanas have been relegated to peon status in the political and power structure in Dravida OBC land today. In a company, the policies are set by the people in power, the rich and powerful, and those people need to demonstrate by example, not the peons. While many here are sympathetic to the plight of Dalits today in TN, however, passionate dialogue with the peons is not going to have the maximum impact. Peons are more worried about survival, getting educated, get a job, avoid getting beaten up etc. Burdening them with caring for a population which is 7 times their size is quite pointless. To truly uplift Dalits, this may not be the most appropriate forum.

Hence I would strongly encourage members on here to send letters to Viduthalai, tamilnation.org and other sites insisting that cabinet ministers whose family concerns own half of Chennai should marry Dalits instead of Brahmanas. Also, I would like those members to insist that Thevars and Gounders and Vanniyar leaders who led directly or indirectly to the death and destruction of Dalit property should be jailed immediately or hanged. It would be good to exhibit the same passion for Dalit emancipation by demonstrating in front of the Moopanar caste priests controlling Devi temples in TN to replace them with Dalit priests. Also, the people responsible for the Khairlanj Dalit massacres (belonging to the so-called OBC Teli caste) should as punishment be made to reserve 25% of their daughters as compensation to the Dalits.

Passionate members need to provide proof of these activities by references to published letters, news photographs of themselves demonstrating in front of the Thevar strongholds, etc. When can we expect such a commitment? For every impassioned article here, it would be good to have 5-6 articles in Viduthalai and Thevar Peravai publications etc. Otherwise these discussions will always remain at a peon level, no matter how many independent threads this topic is repeatedly posted under.

MRIFAN

PS. Also, before doing the above, please provide some personal details so I can take out a life insurance policy on those brave members behalf. I need to get a new car since my old one is about to die. Thanks in advance!

 

[goundamani]

Mrifan,

If you read what i wrote about dalits, you will find that i wrote that only to benefit brahmins. I oppose orthodoxy and age old customs only for the sake of brahmins. Not for the sake of dalits or others(in this forum).

When many members defend 'the individual rights of brahmins of not allowing others into their houses', they are not doing any good for the cause of brahmins.They actually are harming brahmins without their knolwedge. Postings arguing for the 'scientific basis of castes', 'inherently bad character of meat eaters' and 'private right to practice untouchability' might get very good acceptance among many members here. Such posters might be considered as pro-brahmins and infidels like me who post hard truths might be considered as 'morally corrupt porikki's' and 'cheap comedians' (courtesy Mr.Suresh). But the former are actually harming brahmins a lot.They might not know that.They might think that they are saving their brethern's way of life,but they are not. I dont blame them.

Read what I post with an open mind.Think about it.Dont dismiss it immediatly as the rantings of a delinquent.

 

[hariharan1972]

My last post on this thread


Mr Goundamani,

Permit me the audacity of disagreeing with you again. This will be my last post on this thread as I don’t intend to hijack the thread from the purposes for which you started it.

Quote :
The moment a person refuses to admit another person into his house, because of caste, it is not period.It is not the end of argument. Rather it indicates the birth of a revolutionary. The person who was thus declined entry into a house, gets awakened and becomes another ambethkar or periyar.

“Revolutionary” I looked up the meaning for this word & came up with synonyms – “radical, ground-breaking, world-shattering, innovative, innovatory, new, avant-garde, activist”.

It will be such a shame if this word is associated with EVR. He can at best be a “separatist” who didn’t have the courage to fight within the system, didn’t have the courage to lead the system or create a new order. Instead he raved & ranted all through his life, demonized the religion & instilled hatred for Brahmins. I am not sure these actions can by stretch of imagination be called ‘revolutionary’

I have high regards for Ambedkar for his contributions to the process of devising the Indian Constitution. But he again sulked and took the easy way of leaving the system rather than reforming the system.

Quote :
Do you see the pain,hurt and anguish in eyes of the father of our constitution?He was well dressed.He was more educated than everybody in that office.But see the treatment given to this human being, because of his caste.

Did you notice something here which I have been speaking of all along ? This humiliation of Ambedkar has happened in the PUBLIC DOMAIN. Will anyone dare doing it TODAY ? (As far as seeing “pain, hurt & anguish” in the “eyes” of “Ambedkar” - sir idhu too much !!! oru 2 by 2 inch photo pottutu, ambedkar kanadikkula irukkira eyes la pain hurt & anguish yellam yenna parka sonna – ssss ippave kanna kattudhe !!! nu sollaradha thavira yenakku vera vazhi illa)

I agree that the suffering of EVR & Ambedkar in the instances you have quoted amounts to DOWNRIGHT DISCRIMINATION which I STRONGLY CONDEMN….but hey, why not consider the following too ?

a) Are they justified in CONDEMNING the ENTIRE community for the ACTIONS of a few ?

b) Why couldn’t they BALANCE their views about Brahmins – Afterall Ambedkar was educated by a Brahmin, Mundasu kavi Bharathi who proclaimed “jaadigal illayadi papa” was a Brahmin, Gandhi who changed his total attire after seeing the plight of a downtrodden is a Brahmin ?

c) Why couldn’t they show the Brahmin community that they had such leading lights in their own community who shunned discrimination ? The problem was they did too too little to “reach out” but “expected results” too too soon.

d) Extending your argument, today in TN, can I take cognizance of ONLY DK & start hating every all Non-brahmins ? What has the common non-brahmin done to assuage the feelings of the Brahmin ? Does he not have any obligations towards Brahmins or is it one way traffic only ?

My grouse is that all of us, are continuously looking at the past suppressing our present & making it melodramatic. When are we going to bury the past & equate our relationship on the current standing ?

Why should a Brahmin of today carry a sense of guilt and be apologetic for what his forefathers have done ? Especially when his conscience is clear and he behaves himself in the public domain. It’s a shame yes, but would you approve castigating all the generations ? For how long ?

The British unleashed a reign of terror on India before independence. But as a Nation are we (Silver fox excluded) not having cordial relationship with the British ? You can forgive & forget a firang but continue to demonize & ostracize a community to that extent that he has no private rights at all.


Quote :
At many times, he wouldnt even realize that his friend is a brahmin until he enters his house and is denied entry.

Pardon me for saying but doesn’t it sound melodramatic !!! Would any right thinking person take someone to his house & then ‘deny entry’. Wouldn’t he be careful enough about his interaction levels ?

Also I consider it funny that ONLY if I host a non-brahmin at my house would I be considering him my equal…How about my interactions at work place, a conference, an official party, a tour etc… Don’t these count for anything at all !!!!!!

Quote :
Nobody enters a brahmins house to get accepted.In fact nobody enters a brahmins house.They enter a friend's house, a buddy's house,a collegue's house.But if we show him that it is not a buddy's house, but a brahmin's house and he is not a friend in our house, but an untouchable............

You have killed a friend in this moment.

Did you by any chance see Manirathnam’s “Thalabathi” before writing these lines ? Coz it sounds like – “nanben na yennanu theriyuma unakku, natpu na yennanu theriyuma unakku, sooriya na yennanu theriyuma unakku” types

My dear sir, if anyone, repeat anyone is my buddy, friend, colleague, chum I am COMFORTABLE WITH & COMFORT NOT DECIDED BASED ON CASTE BUT MY OTHER PREFERENCES, I wouldn’t battle an eyelid before hosting him. But but

Just to prove my non-casteist credentials or suffering from a guilt feeling for the past, I wouldn’t host anyone & everyone at my home.

Quote :
You have poured the venom of anti-brahminism in his mind.A deep hatred and anger will be created in his mind.Not against the person who did this, but against the perpetuator's caste.He wont just hate this person, but he will hate the entire clan and caste of this person.

So only because I don’t host him at my house he will turn anti-brahmin....The years of teaching by (some) Brahmin teachers would mean nothing to him….The years of service that a temple priest has done for his prayers would mean nothing to him…..The years of peaceful neighbourhood with (some) brahmins would mean nothing to him….The years of friendship he would have enjoyed with his Brahmin classmates would mean nothing to him…..Fantastic !!!!

Tell you what such a person can never be my friend and I will never have anything to do with him.

According to Wiki : Friendship is a term used to denote co-operative and supportive behaviour between two or more social entities. So if friendship would mean that I cannot have my choices in the private domain, I doubt whether the term ‘friendship’ could be at all used to define my relationship with another individual.


Tiruvalluvar says :

“Muga naga natpadhu natpandru ; nenjathu aga naga natpadhu natpu”

Friendship is not judged by the smile in the face by the smile in the heart. So I don’t want to be phony with someone for the sake of proving my non-casteist credentials.

Quote :
Is it?Dont you care?Dont you feel sad and hurt when people abuse brahmins and insult them?Dont you participate in forums and write pages and pages about "why this hatred exists,brahmins are discriminated in movies, schools, public life ,they are chased out of TN etc. etc?"

Yes I do care !!!. I do care by NOT asking them forgiveness for sins i didn't commit. I do care by NOT compromising on my private choices. I do care by NOT leaving my valid set of practices.

I do care by ASKING HIM TO EVALUATE ME FOR WHAT I AM & NOT FOR WHAT I AM NOT. I do care by ASKING HIM TO JUDGE ME BY THE PRESENT AND NOT INFLUENCED BY THE PAST. I do care by RESPECTING HIS PRIVATE RIGHTS AND ASKING HIM TO RESPECT MINE. I do care by ASKING HIM TO HAVE HIS SET OF VALUES & ALLOW ME TO HAVE MY OWN.

Is this too much to ask for ?

I don’t suffer from any guilt conscious and am not carrying any past baggage. My slate is clean & so is my conscience.

 

[kspv]

If a non-brahmin friend of mine follows "no alcohol" policy at his home (private domain), and if I enter drunk into his living room, he has every right to throw me out. Similarly, he has every right to throw me out if I do not maintain hygeine, do not use parliamentary language, or do not show proper demeanour. He may also ask me to leave if he suspects that I am one of those kinds. The "suspicion / reservation" part is a matter of individual sensibility like Hariharan said. His value system and standards may be very different from mine, and he may or may not reckon me as an adherent to that value system.

On the other hand, if I perceive that my non-brahmin friend's sensibilities with respect to me are totally irrational, then I reckon that he is no longer a friend of mine, and would avoid him. I would not automatically blame his entire caste for that.

Swami Vivekananda was a Bengali Kayastha (a non-brahmin). Some of his followers wanted to see him as a Shankaracharya of one of the Maths, and a proposal was accordingly made. But the same was turned down as the edicts of the Math said that only a Brahmin could become a Shankaracharya. But Swami Vivekananda did not become a Brahmin basher afterwards. He went on preaching what he believed in, and came to be worshipped by all of us.

My grandmother used to follow ritual pollution on auspicious days, when she would be dressed in wet-clothes, would not allow us to touch her, fast from morning to evening, and pray to God. I would not reckon that as "discrimination" against me, as it is entirely her private domain.

A Telugu film hero would frequently include brahmin-bashing in his movies. He would also keep quoting an incident from his past life to justify that. It seems that when he was a waiter in a Brahmin hotel in Chennai, his services were abruptly terminated by his Brahmin proprieter. The film-hero sees this as evidence of Brahmin casteism. However, if one examines the details of his past life, this gentleman had an affair with his sister-in-law, and murdered his wife when she questioned it. He was also prone to misbehaviour in public places. All his later accolades, including a Padmashri, obviously would not wipe out these things from my memory. If today I run a hotel, and the said film-hero comes back as a waiter, I would still remove him from his job once I discover his credentials.

No caste in that!

I would also be very wary in recruiting anybody whom I know as a close relative or progeny of this gentleman.

What do you say Mr. Gaundamani?

 

[aditya]

The boy who gives a truer picture of 'Periyar' ​

V SUNDARAM​

I recently interviewed M Venkatesan, a 'Dalit', whose family has been living in a slum area called Hanumanthapuram in Triplicane during the last 25 years. I am specifically mentioning the fact that he belongs to the Dalit community only to take the wind from the sails of self-styled, castiest and communalist Dravidian leaders who often pride themselves as saviours, champions, protectors and upholders of the backward and suppressed communities in Tamilnadu under the political umbrella of 'self-respect' and 'social justice'.​

Venkatesan is a bright, hardworking and precocious young man who has taken his MA in Philosophy from Vivekananda College, Chennai. He told me that when he joined the Vivekananda College, he had to face a barrage of difficult and unanswerable questions from his fellow students on the so-called 'revolutionary and unprecedented' contribution of 'Periyar E V Ramasamy Naicker' to the emancipation and liberation of the oppressed and suppressed communities in Tamilnadu.​

Finding himself in a state of siege, Venkatesan, being a Dalit himself, took the initiative of researching into almost all the publications brought out by 'Periyar Suyamariyadai Prachara Nilayam' and also into the writings of Periyar's contemporaries like Annadurai, M P Sivagnanam, comrade Jeevanandam, KAP Viswanathan, etc. Not being totally satisfied he went through all the magazines and journals like 'Viduthalai', 'Kudiyarasu', 'Dravida Naadu', 'Dravidan' etc, relating to the period during which Periyar lived in order to ascertain the truth and also to get hold of solid and irrefutable facts.​

As a great believer in Hinduism and Hindu philosophy, his sensitive soul was tortured by the baseless attacks of Periyar on Hindu Gods and Goddesses. I would like to quote his own words in this context: 'I could not help viewing Periyar's uncivilised and barbarous attacks upon my chosen Gods and Goddesses and my own Hindu faith as wanton attacks on my dear and sacred mother who begot me. My search into the works of Periyar and my extensive reading of all his articles gave a rude cultural shock to me. I was greatly dismayed by the hellish hatred of Periyar towards my faith and towards my chosen Gods and Goddesses'.

Hatred of Brahmins and hatred of Hindu Gods, these according to Venkatesan were the only pith and pin of Periyar's public life. According to Venkatesan, Periyar was a man of virulent contradictions, inexplicable incongruities and inchoate insensitivities. As he very much wanted these facts to be made known to the public he has written a book in Tamil entitled 'E V Ramasamy Naickarin Marupakkam' (The other side of E V Ramasamy Naickar).

Venkatesan emphatically declared that Periyar did nothing for the emancipation of the oppressed and suppressed dalits. On the contrary he was inimical towards all the dalits whom he treated with utmost contempt. His contempt for the dalits (90 per cent) was only exceeded by his hatred for the Brahmins (100 per cent). To quote from Venkatesan's book: Periyar said: 'The attempt to promote 'temple entry' and 'abolition of untouchability' by the Congress leaders should not result in the tragedy of people belonging to the backward classes getting reduced to the level of scheduled castes.​

Instead of attempting to raise the status of Scheduled Castes (Parayans), an attempt should not be made to reduce the status of backward Class (Sudrans) by relegating them to the levels of Scheduled Castes. On no account should the existing status of Sudrans be reduced to the level of Parayans'.​

Venkatesan says in his book that Periyar's contempt if not hatred for the dalits was shown in another context by his flash observation: 'One of the main reasons why there is an upward trend in the prices of clothes and textiles is that women belonging to the Scheduled Castes (Parachies) have started wearing blouses these days. The reason for growing unemployment in society is on account of increasing number of people belonging to Scheduled Castes (Parayans) taking to school education and higher education'.​

Venkatesan concludes that Periyar was a sworn enemy of dalits, their education, emancipation, growth and development. 'As a dalit I have come to this definite conclusion based upon Periyar's golden thoughts, observations and averments on my dalit community', says Venkatesan. ​

Even a cursory reading of Venkatesan's book will show how Periyar, who was always concerned with the self-respect of the Dravidian race, and more particularly the Tamil race, upheld the glory, the greatness and the grandeur of the Tamil language for over 70 years through his historic and time-defying observations and writings which will ring across centuries. Here are a few pearls from 'Periyarana' cited by Venkatesan in his book:​

'For more than 40 years, I have been describing Tamil as a barbarous language (Kattumirandi Mozhi) used only by barbarians. When Brahmins and the Brahmin-dominated government wanted to make Hindi a State language, I started, to a very limited extent, advocating the promotion of Tamil language only to oppose the imposition of Hindi language. The only language that ought to replace Tamil is English. What is not there in English which can be found in Tamil Language?' ​

Periyar's patriotism and love for our nation are brought out in his own statement: 'Though I might have blocked the exit of the Englishmen from India, though I might have betrayed in a treasonable manner the cause of India's freedom, I have not been a party to the installation of sinners from the Brahmin community with its fall out effects of domination of people from Northern India backed by the lust for money power, paraphernalia of public offices and self-interest'. I have quoted only very very sparingly from the book authoured by Venkatesan. In order to fully understand the truth-defying greatness of 'Periyar' and Periyarism in proper perspective, one has to read this book from end to end with great care and caution, inspired by the shadow ideals of 'self-respect' and 'rationalism'.​

I view Venkatesan as a symbol of a new awakening among the youth in Tamilnadu. I am quite impressed by his zest for learning, thoroughness in his approach to academic research and above all his fearless gentlemanliness deriving its unassailable strength from his passion for truth and justice. Venkatesan lamented: 'The trouble with Tamilnadu is that prejudice often scores a victory over principle. Prejudice, which sees what it pleases, cannot see what is plain. I only wanted to pursue plain truth and nothing else'.​

[URL]http://www.newstodaynet.com/2006sud/06mar/0803ss1.htm[/URL]

Interestingly, I read a long time ago, that Mao Tse Tung of china, who portrayed himself the champion of the peasant class, and unleashed decades a terror against the intellectuals in china, personally had nothing but contempt for the peasant class. But his personal resentment was cloaked well under this political ideology of 'peasant emancipation'' and packaged and sold very well to the masses. Mao Tse |Tung also did nothing persoanlly for the intellectual and social emancipation of the peasant class; instead he created a class of 'communist bourgeoise' who went on to exploit the innocent peasant class and enjoyed the most luxurious lifestyle, unimaginable in a communist society, at the expense of the peasants.

 

[goundamani]

Mr Goundamani,

Permit me the audacity of disagreeing with you again. This will be my last post on this thread as I don’t intend to hijack the thread from the purposes for which you started it.

Hari sir,

You are defenitely not hijacking the thread.Please feel free to continue this interesting debate.

“Revolutionary” I looked up the meaning for this word & came up with synonyms – “radical, ground-breaking, world-shattering, innovative, innovatory, new, avant-garde, activist”.

It will be such a shame if this word is associated with EVR. He can at best be a “separatist” who didn’t have the courage to fight within the system, didn’t have the courage to lead the system or create a new order. Instead he raved & ranted all through his life, demonized the religion & instilled hatred for Brahmins. I am not sure these actions can by stretch of imagination be called ‘revolutionary’

One man's freedom fighter is other man's terrorist.Depends on how you approach the issue.

I have high regards for Ambedkar for his contributions to the process of devising the Indian Constitution. But he again sulked and took the easy way of leaving the system rather than reforming the system.

Only he knows the pain he suffered and what medicine was needed to cure it.He said in 1925 "I was born as a hindu.But i wont die as a hindu" and he fulfilled that promise.I dont blame jews who escaped hitler's germany rather than trying to reform it.

Did you notice something here which I have been speaking of all along ? This humiliation of Ambedkar has happened in the PUBLIC DOMAIN. Will anyone dare doing it TODAY ? (As far as seeing “pain, hurt & anguish” in the “eyes” of “Ambedkar” - sir idhu too much !!! oru 2 by 2 inch photo pottutu, ambedkar kanadikkula irukkira eyes la pain hurt & anguish yellam yenna parka sonna – ssss ippave kanna kattudhe !!! nu sollaradha thavira yenakku vera vazhi illa)

Great.So your only objection to what happened to ambethkar was that it happened in public domain.Had it happened in somebody's house you wouldnt have had any objections or problems with it.

Do you think ambethkar would have reacted differently if such an incident happened in a house and not at office?Does this incidence becomes somehow acceptable if it happen's in a person's house?

One need not even need a 2X2' photo to understand the pain and anguish of a suffering soul.At times just when I hear that a person was beheaded in iraq, I can understand the pain,hurt and torture he would have endured.I dont need to see a video demonstration to understand it fully.I know to empathaize.

when I talk about not allowing dalits inside houses,immediatly many people empathized themselves with the oppressor.They started arguing for the oppressor's "individual rights of not allowing nonbrahmins inside their own houses".

I am not surprised.when i hear a person was beheaded i empathized myself with the victim.I cry for him.Probably if an alqoida member hears the news, he might empathize himself with the beheader.He might make arguments about how what he did was sanctioned in holy book,how everything is fair in war etc..etc.

It's all in our mind.we can choose whom to identify with.What else to say?

I agree that the suffering of EVR & Ambedkar in the instances you have quoted amounts to DOWNRIGHT DISCRIMINATION which I STRONGLY CONDEMN….but hey, why not consider the following too ?

I dont know why you should condemn these incidents.Was it because they happened in public domain, or was it because such incidents happened at all?If later is your reason, that contradicts your agrument that people have the right to act as per their choice in their private domain.

why should you condemn these incidents strongly?I dont understand at all

a) Are they justified in CONDEMNING the ENTIRE community for the ACTIONS of a few ?

b) Why couldn’t they BALANCE their views about Brahmins – Afterall Ambedkar was educated by a Brahmin, Mundasu kavi Bharathi who proclaimed “jaadigal illayadi papa” was a Brahmin, Gandhi who changed his total attire after seeing the plight of a downtrodden is a Brahmin ?

c) Why couldn’t they show the Brahmin community that they had such leading lights in their own community who shunned discrimination ? The problem was they did too too little to “reach out” but “expected results” too too soon.

d) Extending your argument, today in TN, can I take cognizance of ONLY DK & start hating every all Non-brahmins ? What has the common non-brahmin done to assuage the feelings of the Brahmin ? Does he not have any obligations towards Brahmins or is it one way traffic only ?

Simple.

People have freedom of speech.They exercised it.

Oppressors in these incidents exercised their right to behave as they want in their private domain(periyar was abused in a private mutt).They also had the right of not behaving so,but they did not exercise that right.

After this incident periyar also had the choice of acting rationally as you said.He also had the choice of acting in the way he did.He exercised the later option.Plain and simple.

If people have the right to behave in any way they want in their private space, then they should be ready to face the consequences in the outside world. Nobody stays inside his house. He has to come out.He has to face the collegue whom he insulted again face to face. How the nonbrahmin reacts, is his own personal choice. Due to power equations, retaliation will be much,much more worse and painful than the original offense.

If you ask whether it is fair and justifiable for a person to attack the 'entire community' and not just the offendors, you have to answer the question of whether what happened inside the private space is fair and justifiable.If you consider that to be fair,then the affected party also will consider this to be fair.

People have the choice to act cruelly or to act compassionately.One cannot sow cruelty and expect fairness and justice in return.If one sows non-discrimination,love and kindness he will only reapt it back in plentiful.If one sows hatred and cruelty, he will only reapt it back in bountiful.

One cannot be a rotten apple in his house and be a champion of human rights in the outside world.I would call such people as 'ashadaputhis" or "rudratcha poonais"

My grouse is that all of us, are continuously looking at the past suppressing our present & making it melodramatic. When are we going to bury the past & equate our relationship on the current standing ?

As long as we continue talking "I have the right to do whatever i want inside my house", the past will never stop haunting us. As long as such practices and mindsets continue to exist, no sort of reconciliation or peace is possible.

 

[goundamani]

Why should a Brahmin of today carry a sense of guilt and be apologetic for what his forefathers have done ? Especially when his conscience is clear and he behaves himself in the public domain. It’s a shame yes, but would you approve castigating all the generations ? For how long ?

The British unleashed a reign of terror on India before independence. But as a Nation are we (Silver fox excluded) not having cordial relationship with the British ? You can forgive & forget a firang but continue to demonize & ostracize a community to that extent that he has no private rights at all.

You have good oratory skills.But that doesnt hide the fact that you defend an atrocious act.The 'private rights' which you talk about is the right of a brahmin not to allow people of other castes inside his house.You cover this up in such great words and sentences so that it looks like a UNO declaration of human rights.

Legally you are right.You have your private rights. He has his private rights.If we exercise our right to insult him inside our house, he will exercise his rights to insult us outside our house.

Pardon me for saying but doesn’t it sound melodramatic !!! Would any right thinking person take someone to his house & then ‘deny entry’. Wouldn’t he be careful enough about his interaction levels ?

People have become very clever these days.Nowadays they can find out the truths behind the 'interaction levels' very easily.

Before some years, I read an incident in dinamalar anthumani's pa.ke.pa.There a non-brahmin mentioned that he went to his brahmin friend's house and he served them coffee in silver cup.Then he mentioned that silver doesnt have 'theettu' and that's why they served him in silver.(He might be right or really that brahmin friend might have had very high regards on him and would have served him in silver cup to honor him.That is not the point)

The point is people always look brahmins with suspicion in such matters and any small discrepancy (however innocent they might be) is looked at with suspicion.Brahmins are in a stage where they always have to prove that 'they are not guilty'.And I am very sad about this.Simple things get blown out of proportions.

Also I consider it funny that ONLY if I host a non-brahmin at my house would I be considering him my equal…How about my interactions at work place, a conference, an official party, a tour etc… Don’t these count for anything at all !!!!!!

They count for nothing if we behave like a perfect gentleman at these places and behave like a casteist at our house.I would call that as plain hypocracy.Which is this person's real face?The one shows at workplace or one shown at house?People would suspect the latter.

Did you by any chance see Manirathnam’s “Thalabathi” before writing these lines ? Coz it sounds like – “nanben na yennanu theriyuma unakku, natpu na yennanu theriyuma unakku, sooriya na yennanu theriyuma unakku” types

My dear sir, if anyone, repeat anyone is my buddy, friend, colleague, chum I am COMFORTABLE WITH & COMFORT NOT DECIDED BASED ON CASTE BUT MY OTHER PREFERENCES, I wouldn’t battle an eyelid before hosting him. But but

Just to prove my non-casteist credentials or suffering from a guilt feeling for the past, I wouldn’t host anyone & everyone at my home.

Nobody asked you to run weekend parties open to the whole world.

The rules of the game are simple.Follow the social norms of the outside world.Dont select your guests based on caste.

So only because I don’t host him at my house he will turn anti-brahmin....The years of teaching by (some) Brahmin teachers would mean nothing to him….The years of service that a temple priest has done for his prayers would mean nothing to him…..The years of peaceful neighbourhood with (some) brahmins would mean nothing to him….The years of friendship he would have enjoyed with his Brahmin classmates would mean nothing to him…..Fantastic !!!!

It would mean nothing to him.

Ambedthkar had a good brahmin teacher.His teacher helped ambethkar so much that ambethkar attached the last name of that brahmin teacher's name behind his name.Periyar was also friends with so many brahmins.He was the close friend of rajaji.

Did that stop these leaders from bashing up the whole brahmin community?

All the services and friendship you listed out turned out to be nothing.Act of a handful of people ended up poisoning the mind of these leaders than all the good deeds done by innocent brahmins.

A can of milk can be poisoned by a single drop of milk.Once that posion enters a person's mind,he will start looking everybody with suspicious eyes.

Tell you what such a person can never be my friend and I will never have anything to do with him.

Majority of humans are like that.

People dont act rationally.They act emotionally.

According to Wiki : Friendship is a term used to denote co-operative and supportive behaviour between two or more social entities. So if friendship would mean that I cannot have my choices in the private domain, I doubt whether the term ‘friendship’ could be at all used to define my relationship with another individual.

The 'choices in the private domain' which you mention is the 'choice of not allowing a non-brahmin friend of yours inside your house' because he is a non-brahmin.

After exercising this choice, you still expect him to be your friend. And you call wikipedia for your help.

If somebody says 'I will discriminate among my friends.It is my personal choice.They should not care.If they do care, then I dont call that relationship as friendship.Other caste friend of mine can be my friend only as long as he is willing to take insults without batting an eyelid.Other caste friends of mine should cooperate and support me in this" - it will look very odd.

When did caste enter into friendship?

Tiruvalluvar says :

“Muga naga natpadhu natpandru ; nenjathu aga naga natpadhu natpu”

Friendship is not judged by the smile in the face by the smile in the heart. So I don’t want to be phony with someone for the sake of proving my non-casteist credentials.

After wikipedia it is the turn of thiruvalluvar,huh?

valluvar also said

"மோப்ப குழையும் அனிச்சம்: முகம் நோக்கி
வாட்ட குழையும் விருந்து"

He wrote ten kurals about 'virunthompal'.Nowhere in those kurals did he ask to discriminate among guests.

Yes I do care !!!. I do care by NOT asking them forgiveness for sins i didn't commit. I do care by NOT compromising on my private choices. I do care by NOT leaving my valid set of practices.

Clever words.They sound like declaration of human rights of UNO.

If we delve deeply , we find that the 'private choices' you talk about are 'right to discriminate among your guests' and the valid sets of practices you talk about are 'casteism' and 'untouchability'.

I do care by ASKING HIM TO EVALUATE ME FOR WHAT I AM & NOT FOR WHAT I AM NOT. I do care by ASKING HIM TO JUDGE ME BY THE PRESENT AND NOT INFLUENCED BY THE PAST. I do care by RESPECTING HIS PRIVATE RIGHTS AND ASKING HIM TO RESPECT MINE. I do care by ASKING HIM TO HAVE HIS SET OF VALUES & ALLOW ME TO HAVE MY OWN.

Is this too much to ask for ?

Yes.

It defenitely is 'too much to ask for'.

I have already written so much about the 'private rights' which you talk about and the 'set of values' which you are defending.

we also will be evaluated for 'what we are not'. If we are NOT a secular and non-discriminating citizen, the society will ostracize us.

I don’t suffer from any guilt conscious and am not carrying any past baggage. My slate is clean & so is my conscience.

If that is the case, somebody will have a different set of values and private rights. If they have a clean conscience, they wont repeat the mistakes of the past.They will not discriminate.They will not ask for caste name of their guests and treat them in a different way.

If anybody doesnt carry the burden of history in his shoulders, he will create a new history.He will be secular in his outlook and attitude.

 

[goundamani]

If a non-brahmin friend of mine follows "no alcohol" policy at his home (private domain), and if I enter drunk into his living room, he has every right to throw me out. Similarly, he has every right to throw me out if I do not maintain hygeine, do not use parliamentary language, or do not show proper demeanour. He may also ask me to leave if he suspects that I am one of those kinds. The "suspicion / reservation" part is a matter of individual sensibility like Hariharan said. His value system and standards may be very different from mine, and he may or may not reckon me as an adherent to that value system.

On the other hand, if I perceive that my non-brahmin friend's sensibilities with respect to me are totally irrational, then I reckon that he is no longer a friend of mine, and would avoid him. I would not automatically blame his entire caste for that.

Swami Vivekananda was a Bengali Kayastha (a non-brahmin). Some of his followers wanted to see him as a Shankaracharya of one of the Maths, and a proposal was accordingly made. But the same was turned down as the edicts of the Math said that only a Brahmin could become a Shankaracharya. But Swami Vivekananda did not become a Brahmin basher afterwards. He went on preaching what he believed in, and came to be worshipped by all of us.

My grandmother used to follow ritual pollution on auspicious days, when she would be dressed in wet-clothes, would not allow us to touch her, fast from morning to evening, and pray to God. I would not reckon that as "discrimination" against me, as it is entirely her private domain.

A Telugu film hero would frequently include brahmin-bashing in his movies. He would also keep quoting an incident from his past life to justify that. It seems that when he was a waiter in a Brahmin hotel in Chennai, his services were abruptly terminated by his Brahmin proprieter. The film-hero sees this as evidence of Brahmin casteism. However, if one examines the details of his past life, this gentleman had an affair with his sister-in-law, and murdered his wife when she questioned it. He was also prone to misbehaviour in public places. All his later accolades, including a Padmashri, obviously would not wipe out these things from my memory. If today I run a hotel, and the said film-hero comes back as a waiter, I would still remove him from his job once I discover his credentials.

No caste in that!

I would also be very wary in recruiting anybody whom I know as a close relative or progeny of this gentleman.

What do you say Mr. Gaundamani?

Dear KSPV sir,

I understood that the essence of your argument is "people have the god given right of not allowing other caste friends of theirs inside their houses and if they do so, their friends should not feel discriminated. We not allowing you doesnt mean that we disrespect you, but still we wont allow you".

Correct me if I am wrong.

I will tell you a story.

A poojari decorated a goat and garlanded it.Then he took a knife and told the goat "me cutting your head doesnt mean I hate you.I have the legal right to cut your head and I am exercising it.It doesnt mean I hate you or any such thing.But hey, i still need to cut your head"

Then he cut the goat's head.

 

[mrifan]

Definition of a communist

Communist: A person who believes everything belongs to the community and is to be shared by all.

In essence, no private ownership or private markers are acceptable. As is well known, communist societies all over the world are not exactly the shining beacons that everyone wants to migrate to.

Extremely melodramatic examples not withstanding, I do not think normal people are going to turn communists or vice versa based on those examples. In my house, I can admit whoever I want for whatever reason I want. Similarly, if someone says please do not come to our house, let us meet in a public place, I would not take any offense at all. Why should I? I am not a communist, and living in a communal fashion does not appeal to me. I fully support the rights of others to do whatever they want in their private life. No explanations necessary or desired, or even relevant. However, if a person decided to interfere with a public right of mine, then I would attempt to fight back, nor would I attempt to interfere in a public right of anyone else. I think many Brahmanas will do the same.

Also, I really do not understand this craving to enter a Brahmanas house and marry his daughter. It seems like a very unhealthy obsession, or a case of extreme envy, for god knows what reason, and people who are tormented by such have some deep inferiority complexes. I would advocate some psychiatric care for that person. There is another corollary to having unhealthy obsessions like this. One should understand that it definitely lowers respect for a person. Unless a person respects himself or herself, it will divert a person from achieving their true potential in life.

If a person is offended at the actions of a few Brahmanas in their private life, and decides to interfere with the public life of all Brahmanas, then that person is an idiot. Living in fear of these thugs would be a big mistake. Brahmanas should treat people equally in public life, firmly and politely reject any attempts to communalize their houses and private life, and get organized to defeat goondas who carry out a public campaign of intimidation. Brahmanas should find a way around these goondas and achieve their objective of rising to their best potential.

If all legal ways are blocked, and fundamental public rights are denied, Brahmanas should regroup, form alliances with other people in the state, raise the issue in national and international fora, and if necessary migrate to another state or country.

Even if the rest of the Brahmanas were to migrate out of TN, the life of the remaining Dalits will not really improve much. So if they are looking for Brahmanas to be their savior, they might be disappointed. Brahmanas have their own problems trying to survive.

 

[goundamani]

Communist: A person who believes everything belongs to the community and is to be shared by all.

In essence, no private ownership or private markers are acceptable. As is well known, communist societies all over the world are not exactly the shining beacons that everyone wants to migrate to.

"Private markers" "private ownership"

Allowing your non-brahmin friend, your co-worker inside your house seems to be such a threat. The friend with whom you share a joke in office, with whom you share everything suddenly becomes a threat if he comes to your house. You raise issues of 'private marker'. Your friend visiting your house becomes an issue to be raised in international fora, to 'join forces with others' and opposed. You think that a non-brahmin friend is bad enough to visit houses to steal daughters.

If the same friend is a brahmin then you wont have any problem in inviting him to your house.

Is this the value which we instill in the minds of our children?Is this our culture and tradition?Tamils are known for their hospitality.No wonder they get shocked and feel humiliated when they get treated like this.No wonder the atheist movement in tamilnadu is called as 'self-respect movement'.

Extremely melodramatic examples not withstanding, I do not think normal people are going to turn communists or vice versa based on those examples. In my house, I can admit whoever I want for whatever reason I want.

The only reason you give is "you are a non-brahmin.So don't come to my house".

Similarly, if someone says please do not come to our house, let us meet in a public place, I would not take any offense at all. Why should I?

If someone says "you are a brahmin.So please dont come to my house.Let us meet in a public place" how will a brahmin feel?Should he even be friends with him afterwards?

I am not a communist, and living in a communal fashion does not appeal to me. I fully support the rights of others to do whatever they want in their private life. No explanations necessary or desired, or even relevant..

Do you fully support the rights of others to hate your community from the deepest part of their heart?Do you support rights of other to carry venom of anti-brahminism in their minds?Do you even care about why others hate this so much?Do you care about how what we do in our houses turns to haunt the entire community and have reduced the community to this stage?

We have your rights.They have their rights.How they exercise their rights, depends on how we exercise our rights.

Also, I really do not understand this craving to enter a Brahmanas house and marry his daughter.

Shocked beyond words.Is this the opinion we should have about our non-brahmin friends? Are they so bad?

It seems like a very unhealthy obsession, or a case of extreme envy, for god knows what reason, and people who are tormented by such have some deep inferiority complexes. I would advocate some psychiatric care for that person. There is another corollary to having unhealthy obsessions like this. One should understand that it definitely lowers respect for a person. Unless a person respects himself or herself, it will divert a person from achieving their true potential in life.

I think this to be a case of superiority complex.If we dont accept others as equals, then we have superiority complex.If we dont accept other castes as equal to our caste it is called as r

If a person is offended at the actions of a few Brahmanas in their private life, and decides to interfere with the public life of all Brahmanas, then that person is an idiot. Living in fear of these thugs would be a big mistake.

"actions of few brahmanas".

You dont mention what these actions are, how the society feels about this and how you call the entire brahmins society should rise to defend the "actions of these few brahmanas" even in the international fora.

Brahmanas should treat people equally in public life, firmly and politely reject any attempts to communalize their houses and private life, and get organized to defeat goondas who carry out a public campaign of intimidation. Brahmanas should find a way around these goondas and achieve their objective of rising to their best potential.

You seem to be willing to fight a third world war rather than to allow your friend inside your house.

If all legal ways are blocked, and fundamental public rights are denied, Brahmanas should regroup, form alliances with other people in the state, raise the issue in national and international fora, and if necessary migrate to another state or country.

I only shiver at "the fundamental public right" which you argue for.

Fundamental right = "Right to discriminate on caste"

And you want to ally with 'other people in state'

Who will ally?I only wonder.

 

[gurumurthyji]

Continue.....in pursuit of your Goal

Dear Hari Sir,

Please don’t take the invitation to write again!! I can only request you or mirfan !!!

Aayiram Nilave Vaa ? (1000 Moons Come)

999 Nilave Vaa ?

998 Nileve Vaa ……………………

997,996…….1 (one) Nileve Vaa ? ( I thought this fellow stops?!!!!)

But ……..Aiyaiyo Look this

Minus 1 nileve Vaa ?!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Goundamani Sir, Please continue now begin with what one things…………..

GURUMURTHYJI

 

[goundamani]

Gurumurthyji,

No need for them to stop.

Let me stop.

C U all.I will miss you all.ray2:

 

[mrifan]

Limit tends to infinity

"Private markers" "private ownership"

Allowing your non-brahmin friend, your co-worker inside your house seems to be such a threat. The friend with whom you share a joke in office, with whom you share everything suddenly becomes a threat if he comes to your house. You raise issues of 'private marker'. Your friend visiting your house becomes an issue to be raised in international fora, to 'join forces with others' and opposed. You think that a non-brahmin friend is bad enough to visit houses to steal daughters.

This melodramatic outburst seems to have touched a very deep chord which I have trouble locating. In these days even relatives maintain a distance in terms of relationships. Work relationships should preferably stay at work. On company time, people should primarily be engaged in work, otherwise it is not ethical. There should be respect for other people's money. Communists usually have trouble with such concepts since the basic axiom is that everything belongs to everyone.

For social purposes there are office functions, family day gatherings etc where people can have coffee and make idle chit-chat. If I felt a colleague was of the mental mould that suited my tastes, I would not have no issues with that person visiting my house but only if an occassion demanded it and very rarely. I could care less what the caste of the person was. But that does not take away the fact that it is I, and I alone, who has the right of entry to my house on any factor.

Is this the value which we instill in the minds of our children?Is this our culture and tradition?Tamils are known for their hospitality.No wonder they get shocked and feel humiliated when they get treated like this.No wonder the atheist movement in tamilnadu is called as 'self-respect movement'.

Aha, so Brahmanas are not Tamils? Do "Tamil" Devars, "Tamil" Vanniars, "Tamil" Chettiars, "Tamil" Gounders etc all live communally with Dalits? Why aren't they "shocked" by this humiliation? The problem with emotional outbursts is that objective reasoning becomes impossible, and ultimately circular reasoning becomes the norm.

Here I repeat my previous request to ensure justice is done to Dalits by agitating in front of Gounder and Chettiar businesses, in Thevar temples and publications, etc with the same passionate zeal to allow Dalits free entry into their homes and businesses. When can we expect such a commitment? Brahmana forums are hopeless, filled with intransigent people. Why this obsession with Brahmanas? We need to see documented proof of "hospitable Tamils" belonging to the powerful castes as enumerated above who ensure Dalits free entry into their homes. If as you say, even a few "Tamil" Gounders, "Tamil" Thevars etc have refused entry to even a single Dalit based on caste, please ensure that all "Tamil" powerful castes are condemned by resolutions passed in the State Assembly.

Again, when can we expect such a commitment? We need to see some timelines here since talk is cheap, but action is more important. We need dates, protest plans, publication details, details of demonstrations in front of prominent Thevar policitians and panchayat leaders etc. This will definitely be of interest to the other Brahmanas also, who will finally start to believe that the "social justice" and "self-respect" venom is equally targeted towards all casteist people. Why do we not see Thevar or Gounder heads being shaved, or their lungis removed for not allowing Dalits into their houses or Devi temples? When can we expect a commitment by the passionate members here to ensure "social justice" is done to those communities also?

If someone says "you are a brahmin.So please dont come to my house.Let us meet in a public place" how will a brahmin feel? Should he even be friends with him afterwards?

Do you fully support the rights of others to hate your community from the deepest part of their heart?Do you support rights of other to carry venom of anti-brahminism in their minds?Do you even care about why others hate this so much?Do you care about how what we do in our houses turns to haunt the entire community and have reduced the community to this stage?

I fully support the right of any community or person to hate Brahmanas. If any of these DK thugs prevent me from entering their house, I have absolutely no problem with it. Why should I? It is called freedom of expression, and their private property has inalienable rights. What is wrong however, is to actively interfere in public opportunities which affect all Brahmanas, and indulge in rowdyism and violence etc. Why is this so hard to understand? I think these are fairly simple concepts that any sane invidividual should be able to grasp.

We have your rights.They have their rights.How they exercise their rights, depends on how we exercise our rights.

Rights are not relative to others. Rights are absolute in the constitution. This is an incontrovertible fact, and the Supreme Court has ruled on this numerous times. Even the US Supreme Court has made this a fundamental cornerstone of their interpretations. So, unless we want to regress to a tribal system, this is not even relevant.

Shocked beyond words.Is this the opinion we should have about our non-brahmin friends? Are they so bad?

Some are good, some are bad just like some Brahmanas are good, and some are bad. Elementary logic here.

You seem to be willing to fight a third world war rather than to allow your friend inside your house.

Well, if I really wanted to go to war to prevent a "friend" from entering my house, needless to say that person would most definitely not be a "friend" by any conventional definition.

Fundamental right = "Right to discriminate on caste"

Umm..Fundamental right = "Right to privacy and personal property". Unless of course the constitution is scrapped and India is renamed as the Communist State of India. In that case, I want out.

And you want to ally with 'other people in state'

Sure, Brahmanas can get plenty of allies to back the cause of Personal rights. All that needs to be proclaimed is that a bill will be tabled to ensure that "Dalits have free right to entry in all Thevar, Gounder, Chettiar, Mudaliar, Pillai..<insert more social justice castes here>... homes", and watch how quickly the "social justice" movement will become the "Property Rights" movement.

 

[hariharan1972]

dont

mr. goundamani,
pl don't leave the forum. I said I am stopping as I didn't want the discussion to be hijacked. also I am smitten by work bug which gets cured automatically over a period of time. looking forward to a discussion on a different topic different time.

 

[kspv]

Dear Goundamani,

All I am saying is:

1.) Within one's own private domain one has a reasonable right to be either prudent / wise, or irrational / stupid (...and it depends upon the way you see it, as to what is irrational / stupid, and what is prudent / wise). Many of us are irrational about a good number of things in our private lives, and such eccentricities are O.K. if they do not spill over to the public domain. A friend's wife thinks that her hands get polluted if she touches the door handles touched by others, and washes her hands with soap fifty times a day (OCD = Obsessive Compulsive Disorder). It is not my problem if her hands chaff and bleed. I need not take it to heart that she washed her hands after touching a door handle touched by me. To hell with her! Another friend gets very offended if I talk to his wife or wish her, 'Namaskaram'. To hell with him! If I can not forgive him for that, I may exclude his private domain from my private domain, and keep my interaction with him strictly in the public domain, in which case he no longer remains my "friend". It does not take a Brahmin and a non-Brahmin to generate such scenarios. They are merely individual eccentricities.

2.) Let us consider the interaction between, say, a Muslim and a Brahmin. The Brahmin may or may not fit into what the Muslim thinks is his cultural milieu. If the latter is the case, the Brahmin would be prevented from getting an entry into, say, a business establishment run by that Muslim, or the household of that Muslim. There can even be a violent reaction from the Muslim if he merely suspects that the Brahmin is trying to make in-roads into his household. For example, I remember an incident that happened in Jayanagar, Bangalore, where a Brahmin boy dropping a Muslim girl (a classmate) at her house in an auto, out of his concern towards her safety, was attacked with choppers by the girl's father, uncles, and brothers for doing so! Many households of feudal land-lords in certain regions in Andhra are strictly out of bounds for Brahmins and non-Brahmins alike, and one may have to pay with his life if the norms are defied (for any reason, fair or foul). These kinds of abberrations / hostilities / suspicions exist across several classes and castes, and not just between Brahmins and non-Brahmins. To hell with them! Why should I bother (as long as my public domain is not effected)? Remember that character in Harper Lee's 'To Kill A Mocking Bird'? The black, Tom, gets punished after he tries to help a white girl.

But yes, I see sense in your argument that in general the emphasis amongst Brahmins should be on taking others along with them, and into their fold, rather than trying to constantly prove to others that they are some kind of racially superior entities.

In any case, please do not take the arguments and counter-arguments on this forum to heart. I enjoy reading your postings. Please continue.

 

[hariharan1972]

Material on EVR

FUZZY AND NEUTROSOPHIC ANALYSIS OF PERIYAR’S VIEWS ON UNTOUCHABILITY

Download at :

www.gallup.unm.edu/~smarandache/Periyar.pdf

I checked up the meaning of "Neutrosophy" from dictionary.com & it says

(From Latin "neuter" - neutral, Greek "sophia" - skill/wisdom) A branch of philosophy, introduced by Florentin Smarandache in 1980, which studies the origin, nature, and scope of neutralities, as well as their interactions with different ideational spectra.
Neutrosophy considers a proposition, theory, event, concept, or entity, "A" in relation to its opposite, "Anti-A" and that which is not A, "Non-A", and that which is neither "A" nor "Anti-A", denoted by "Neut-A". Neutrosophy is the basis of neutrosophic logic, neutrosophic probability, neutrosophic set, and neutrosophic statistics

I am not sure whether EVR could ever be fitted into "neutrality of view" !!!

 

[kashyap]

needless question -- like asking if tamil is a language

Ofcourse EVR was a villian, a megalomaniac, petty person. He did not allow even a dalit electrician to work in his pooja room. I know this because my great-grandfather was from Erode and EVR was his childhood friend. But unfortunately this will not be shown in the movie on him.
EVR was the biggest hypocrite and racist , propogator of apartheid.

He called Tamil as a barbaric language and Tamils as barbarians. Is it not because Tamil was not his mother tongue? Even this wont be shown in the movie.

Needless to say he is a villain. It is as clear as the fact that Tamil is a language.
Proofs are aplenty but the space is not enough to put them all. No need to discuss this topic. It is very clear.

 

[kashyap]

EVR in suya roopam ( actual face)
http://www.tamilnation.org/hundredtamils/periyar/sundaram.htm