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Pope Fankie

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This is one of the reasons this pope is admirable:

Pope Francis Reaches Out To Atheists In Pontiff's First Christmas Day Message, Urging Global Peace
"I invite even non-believers to desire peace. (Join us) with your desire, a desire that widens the heart. Let us all unite, either with prayer or with desire, but everyone, for peace"


In the past this pope has said some pretty amazing things. Here is one, a cutting rebuke to the very church he is heading ......
"You know what I think about this? Heads of the Church have often been narcissists, flattered and thrilled by their courtiers. The court is the leprosy of the papacy."
 
So ?, all the previous pope's were bad because they didn't reach out to the atheists ?? so only if people play to the individual gallery & specific to your position, they will get the modicum of respect ??

Previous pope’s have done yeoman service to the poor & needy but they will not be respected because they did not play tothe Gallery? So if the next Pope is a Dalit, you will then convert to Christianity ?. On the other hand, if a Brahmin convert becomes the next Pope, God save us all from your abuses !!

Having said that, I have the highest respect for the current pope. I am just highlighting the fallacy of the argument.

Just to let others know. I deeply respect & humbly bow to all the Shankaracharyas, Popes, Priests, Gurus, Rishis across all races !!
 
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Just to let others know. I deeply respect & humbly bow to all the Shankaracharyas, Popes, Priests, Gurus, Rishis across all races !!


Dear Jaykay,

Why did you leave out Maulanas? Priests,Gurus,Rishis are usually referring to Hindus.

If we want to be Sarva Dharma..kindly dont leave anyone out.
 
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Hi Renuka,

Absolutely, my deep respect to all the maulanas, it was a typo. Btn, my current focus of interest is Islam/Koran & its origin !

Cheers,
 
Hi Renuka,

Let me recant an incident that happened years back. I was struggling with a major issue & as usual prayed to all our Gods being religious all my life.

Then out of desperation – I said, God, Ganesha, Muruga, Shiva,Vishnu, Jesus, Allah – please please help me. Within a few mins or so, I got a call from a person called – “Allah Baksh”. I was totally shocked to hear it, he was a sales person who wanted to meet me for some business. I immediately agreed & met up with him, but strangely after that meeting, he never contacted me. And his phone number was unreachable. Later when I spoke to my friends, they said – Allah Baksh stands for Messenger of God!!

My problems got resolved the same day we met & since then I have continued to pray to Allah as any of our Vedic Gods. !! so I have the utmost respect to Islam/Koran and its devout followers.

On a side note, such incidents make us such staunch believers in God & his miracles !!

Cheers,
 
Renuka - LOL !. coz some people make it very hard to have a meaningful discussion with their virulent anti-someone stand & their constant abuses !!. :) It is okay to disagree with others all the time, but there is a polite way to do it.
 
This is one of the reasons this pope is admirable:

Pope Francis Reaches Out To Atheists In Pontiff's First Christmas Day Message, Urging Global Peace
"I invite even non-believers to desire peace. (Join us) with your desire, a desire that widens the heart. Let us all unite, either with prayer or with desire, but everyone, for peace"


In the past this pope has said some pretty amazing things. Here is one, a cutting rebuke to the very church he is heading ......
"You know what I think about this? Heads of the Church have often been narcissists, flattered and thrilled by their courtiers. The court is the leprosy of the papacy."

Dear Nara,

May be you are trying to justify your modicum of respect!

Which religion is allowing the atheists to have a free hand and is allowing them to question established beliefs, customs and traditions!

It is the Sanatan Dharma which has embraced atheists as much as it would have the theists!

And for the theist too, there are no hard and fast rules...As there are multitude of Gods it gives freedom of choice to choose their own Ishta Daivata for worship!
 
The grass seems greener on the other side of the fence. The atheist in Hinduism were not outsiders but insiders. There is no one single elected leader in Hinduism, who can speak on behalf of all Hindus. This pope is fascinating individual. He seems to be a good administrator, and a good leader.
I have the high respect for the current pope.
 
May be you are trying to justify your modicum of respect!
vgane, I feel no need to justify anything, I was just expressing my genuine view, I do have a modicum of respect for the pope because of the change in tone he has brought about. Just take a look at what he says about proselytizing, a hot issue for many in India:

"Proselytism is solemn nonsense, it makes no sense. We need to get to know each other, listen to each other and improve our knowledge of the world around us…. [O]ur goal is not to proselytize but to listen to needs, desires and disappointments, despair, hope."

It is the Sanatan Dharma which has embraced atheists as much as it would have the theists!
This is an unnecessary diversion I think. I was just pointing out how much of a change in thinking this pope was able to engender and you are making a very defensive statement that your religion is even better to atheists. If so, that is great, but unfortunately that is not so, the very terminology Sanatana Dharma reveal its incompatibility with rational thought -- one might try to redefine what is meant by Dharma, but that is simply reengineering.

Be that as it may, if your religion embraces (really?) atheists then great, good for you ....
 
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Hi Renuka,

Let me recant an incident that happened years back. I was struggling with a major issue & as usual prayed to all our Gods being religious all my life.

Then out of desperation – I said, God, Ganesha, Muruga, Shiva,Vishnu, Jesus, Allah – please please help me. Within a few mins or so, I got a call from a person called – “Allah Baksh”. I was totally shocked to hear it, he was a sales person who wanted to meet me for some business. I immediately agreed & met up with him, but strangely after that meeting, he never contacted me. And his phone number was unreachable. Later when I spoke to my friends, they said – Allah Baksh stands for Messenger of God!!

My problems got resolved the same day we met & since then I have continued to pray to Allah as any of our Vedic Gods. !! so I have the utmost respect to Islam/Koran and its devout followers.

On a side note, such incidents make us such staunch believers in God & his miracles !!

Cheers,

The islamic concept of "Allaah" comes very very close to the advaitic notion of "Parabrahmam" but when one branches off into further nuances of both the philosophies/religions, there are several differences. Still, I personally give great respect to Prophet Nabi on two counts; one, he successfully forbade depicting his own or Allah's image, any where, and two, His preaching against idol worship still rules Islam after more than 1400 or so years. Both are remarkable feats.

And the religious fervor of Muslims the world over, without any idol worship calls the bluff of "murti poojan" and its great importance in Hinduism, Christianity, etc.
 
The islamic concept of "Allaah" comes very very close to the advaitic notion of "Parabrahmam" but when one branches off into further nuances of both the philosophies/religions, there are several differences. Still, I personally give great respect to Prophet Nabi on two counts; one, he successfully forbade depicting his own or Allah's image, any where, and two, His preaching against idol worship still rules Islam after more than 1400 or so years. Both are remarkable feats.

And the religious fervor of Muslims the world over, without any idol worship calls the bluff of "murti poojan" and its great importance in Hinduism, Christianity, etc.

In Shi'a countries such as Iran and Azerbaijan, depiction of the prophet's images is not expressly forbidden. The Twelvers' brand of Islam is totally different from the Hanafi and Salafi jurisprudences which are mainly sunni. The Ibadhi islam is also very different from both shi'a and sunni.
 
The islamic concept of "Allaah" comes very very close to the advaitic notion of "Parabrahmam" but when one branches off into further nuances of both the philosophies/religions, there are several differences. Still, I personally give great respect to Prophet Nabi on two counts; one, he successfully forbade depicting his own or Allah's image, any where, and two, His preaching against idol worship still rules Islam after more than 1400 or so years. Both are remarkable feats.

And the religious fervor of Muslims the world over, without any idol worship calls the bluff of "murti poojan" and its great importance in Hinduism, Christianity, etc.


Dear Sangom ji,

I remember asking my mother when I was a teen "Why when some religions are able to pray without an idol..why do we Hindus need Idols?..which is the right way?"

To which she replied that 'Idol is to focus the mind cos formless worship is actually very difficult etc"

I was somehow not convinced with her answer but anyway I feel each person might have his/her own way of worship.

Sometimes too many rituals make you wonder 'what is actually needed and what is actually not needed" being a person who always was not keen on rituals and Idol worship I still feel that my mind set did not really go into the wrong direction..so may be I guess for all you know even prayer is not even needed at all.

Yes you are right about the similarity of concepts of Parabrahman and the Islamic Concept of All Mighty.

In fact the 2nd line of the Azan says " There is no other God besides God"

Somehow that reminds me of Ekam Advaita Brahman.

There is also a line in the Azan calling to come together for prayer and salvation which is actually very similar to this line from the Sama Veda.

Sama Veda:

He is One.
Come together,you all,with power of spirit to the Lord of Heaven.
 
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vgane, I feel no need to justify anything, I was just expressing my genuine view, I do have a modicum of respect for the pope because of the change in tone he has brought about. Just take a look at what he says about proselytizing, a hot issue for many in India:

"Proselytism is solemn nonsense, it makes no sense. We need to get to know each other, listen to each other and improve our knowledge of the world around us…. [O]ur goal is not to proselytize but to listen to needs, desires and disappointments, despair, hope."

This is an unnecessary diversion I think. I was just pointing out how much of a change in thinking this pope was able to engender and you are making a very defensive statement that your religion is even better to atheists. If so, that is great, but unfortunately that is not so, the very terminology Sanatana Dharma reveal its incompatibility with rational thought -- one might try to redefine what is meant by Dharma, but that is simply reengineering.

Be that as it may, if your religion embraces (really?) atheists then great, good for you ....

What I wanted to say is that Hindus do not go against the atheists..You do not have the hard core type as in Islam..If you display the image of Allah, it is blasphemy..Look at the threats that Taslima Nasrin or a Samlam Rushdie faces all over the world from the fanatacists

That you are allowed to voice your divergent opinion, thoughyou may be riled, is itself a sign that we are ready to look at the other side too

Would you be able to share your thoughts in Pakistan or Bangladesh in public and belittle religion?
 
Dear Sangom ji,

I remember asking my mother when I was a teen "Why when some religions are able to pray without an idol..why do we Hindus need Idols?..which is the right way?"

To which she replied that 'Idol is to focus the mind cos formless worship is actually very difficult etc"

I was somehow not convinced with her answer but anyway I feel each person might have his/her own way of worship.

Sometimes too many rituals make you wonder 'what is actually needed and what is actually not needed" being a person who always was not keen on rituals and Idol worship I still feel that my mind set did not really go into the wrong direction..so may be I guess for all you know even prayer is not even needed at all.

Yes you are right about the similarity of concepts of Parabrahman and the Islamic Concept of All Mighty.

In fact the 2nd line of the Azan says " There is no other God besides God"

Somehow that reminds me of Ekam Advaita Brahman.

There is also a line in the Azan calling to come together for prayer and salvation which is actually very similar to this line from the Sama Veda.

Sama Veda:

He is One.
Come together,you all,with power of spirit to the Lord of Heaven.

Dear Doctor,

The Adhan goes like this:

Allahu Akbar
God is Great


Ashhadu an la ilaha illa Allah
I bear witness that there is no god except the One God.


Ashadu anna Muhammadan Rasool Allah
I bear witness that Muhammad is the messenger of God.


Hayya 'ala-s-Salah
Hurry to the prayer (Rise up for prayer)


Hayya 'ala-l-Falah
Hurry to success (Rise up for Salvation)


Allahu Akbar
God is Great


La ilaha illa Allah
There is no god except the One God

Adhan is recited before the Salat. Shi'a adhan is different from the Sunni. I'm not too sure if the adhan has any connection whatsoever with any scripture of any other religion.
 
What I wanted to say is that Hindus do not go against the atheists..You do not have the hard core type as in Islam..If you display the image of Allah, it is blasphemy..Look at the threats that Taslima Nasrin or a Samlam Rushdie faces all over the world from the fanatacists

That you are allowed to voice your divergent opinion, thoughyou may be riled, is itself a sign that we are ready to look at the other side too

Would you be able to share your thoughts in Pakistan or Bangladesh in public and belittle religion?

Pakistan and B'desh have very strict anti-blasphemy laws. Even Ahmadiyyas and Shi'ites are considered "kufr", non-muslim. Anyone expounding extreme or even mildly atheistic views can potentially be awarded the death sentence.
 
Dear Doctor,

The Adhan goes like this:

Allahu Akbar
God is Great


Ashhadu an la ilaha illa Allah
I bear witness that there is no god except the One God.


Ashadu anna Muhammadan Rasool Allah
I bear witness that Muhammad is the messenger of God.


Hayya 'ala-s-Salah
Hurry to the prayer (Rise up for prayer)


Hayya 'ala-l-Falah
Hurry to success (Rise up for Salvation)


Allahu Akbar
God is Great


La ilaha illa Allah
There is no god except the One God

Adhan is recited before the Salat. Shi'a adhan is different from the Sunni. I'm not too sure if the adhan has any connection whatsoever with any scripture of any other religion.

Dear Ash,

I know this by heart yaar!
 
Dear Ash,

I know this by heart yaar!

I heard the adhan every single hour (sic) in Doha and (gulp) Riyadh! I also heard it in Baku, azerbaijan, the shi'ites add 'ya ali wali'un ali' in the opening lines. They wouldn't be too appreciative if their prayer call is compared to other religions!!
 
I heard the adhan every single hour (sic) in Doha and (gulp) Riyadh! I also heard it in Baku, azerbaijan, the shi'ites add 'ya ali wali'un ali' in the opening lines. They wouldn't be too appreciative if their prayer call is compared to other religions!!

Dear Ash,

I like to do a comparative study of all religions..essentially every religion is asking us to be a better human.
As long we respect each religion and accept the similarities and differences there can only be peace.
So for me I hold a very open view and open mind and rather just take all religions to be guidelines for humans even though I am not in favor of conversion of any kind...just stick to what we were born into.

I used to read about all religions since a teen..when we read everything we learn to respect everyone and give them their due credit.

There are positive aspects in all religions..I like the Islamic Formless Concept of God and the Self Realization/Self Enquiry Preaching of Lord Buddha...Advaita of Hinduism and the Brotherhood concept of Christianity but yet finally I choose not to pray anymore(but I am not an Atheist) cos I rather focus on being a good human and that should suffice for now.
 
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Dear Ash,

I like to do a comparative study of all religions..essentially every religion is asking us to be a better human.
As long we respect each religion and accept the similarities and differences there can only be peace.
So for me I hold a very open view and open mind and rather just take all religions to be guidelines for humans even though I am not in favor of conversion of any kind...just stick to what we were born into.

I used to read about all religions since a teen..when we read everything we learn to respect everyone and give them their due credit.

There are positive aspects in all religions..I like the Islamic Formless Concept of God and the Self Realization/Self Enquiry Preaching of Lord Buddha...Advaita of Hinduism and the Brotherhood concept of Christianity but yet finally I choose not to pray anymore cos I rather focus on being a good human and that would should suffice for now.

That won't suffice for now, that will suffice forever. Btw, nobody is good or bad, people come in shades of gray. Focus on being human lolz..
 
That won't suffice for now, that will suffice forever. Btw, nobody is good or bad, people come in shades of gray. Focus on being human lolz..

Dear Ash,

When I said that should suffice for now..I meant it as only now and not forever cos none of us can know how we will be tomorrow..the human mind is fickle..so I have no idea if in the future I will be good or bad or 50 shades of grey!
 
Dear Ash,

I like to do a comparative study of all religions..essentially every religion is asking us to be a better human.
As long we respect each religion and accept the similarities and differences there can only be peace.
So for me I hold a very open view and open mind and rather just take all religions to be guidelines for humans even though I am not in favor of conversion of any kind...just stick to what we were born into.

I used to read about all religions since a teen..when we read everything we learn to respect everyone and give them their due credit.

There are positive aspects in all religions..I like the Islamic Formless Concept of God and the Self Realization/Self Enquiry Preaching of Lord Buddha...Advaita of Hinduism and the Brotherhood concept of Christianity but yet finally I choose not to pray anymore(but I am not an Atheist) cos I rather focus on being a good human and that should suffice for now.

There 'may be' a few positive aspects in religion, that toodepending upon your view point. But essentially all religions tend to have a possessive "love" for their followers and those who want to be regarded as "devout/orthodox followers" are brainwashed into believing that the true god and the true path to that god is only through the said religion and so, axiomatically, any other religion is to be hated; such hate for other religions is also taken to indicate how religious one is in a particular religion. And, it is the priesthood or similar coterie in every religion which benefits materially in every religion.

Thus religions are like polluted/infected food; while food may satisfy one's hunger, the infection will leave you seriously ill or may even kill you! That is why religions have to be shunned.
 
Dear Doctor,

The Adhan goes like this:

Allahu Akbar
God is Great


Ashhadu an la ilaha illa Allah
I bear witness that there is no god except the One God.


Ashadu anna Muhammadan Rasool Allah
I bear witness that Muhammad is the messenger of God.


Hayya 'ala-s-Salah
Hurry to the prayer (Rise up for prayer)


Hayya 'ala-l-Falah
Hurry to success (Rise up for Salvation)


Allahu Akbar
God is Great


La ilaha illa Allah
There is no god except the One God

Adhan is recited before the Salat. Shi'a adhan is different from the Sunni. I'm not too sure if the adhan has any connection whatsoever with any scripture of any other religion.

Keralites pronounce it as "aazaan"; what is the correct arabic?
 

Keralites pronounce it as "aazaan"; what is the correct arabic?

Dear Sangom ji,

Its azan..that is how it is pronounced here.

There is some variation on how it is pronounced in various regions but the letter "a" of azan is always short...cos the letter "a" in Arabic or Jawi script is Alif which is "a" in Romanized version and like अ in Devanagari.
 
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What I wanted to say is that Hindus do not go against the atheists.
vgane, my point was about this Pope calling on the atheists to join with the faithful to address the world's problems. You are saying Hinduism is better than Islam when it comes to tolerating atheists. While your claim is completely irrelevant, don't you think salafist islam is a very low bar to compare yourself with? There are many historical and political reasons for the islamic extremism. It must be opposed no doubt. But these are not representative of Islam today or historically. Case in point is Omar Khayam, who is celebrated in islamic Iran who penned some deeply irreligious verses.

Coming back to your comments, I thank you for taking back the word "embrace" that is good, because, once Brahminism became dominant, atheism of all types was mercilessly crushed. Take for instance Buddism, an atheistic religion, it is almost non-existent in the land of its inception. Dhivya Prabhandam has choice epithets about other religions. புத்தம் and சமணம் are supposed to be புலையறம், and if they try to argue with you then their தலையை அறுப்பதே கருமம்.

Another one, சமணர், சாக்கியப்பேய், தாழ்சடையோன் சொற்கற்ற சோம்பர், சூனிய வாதர் all these are நீசர் and all of them perished after the appearance of Ramanuja -- Ramanuja is supposed to have put thousands of Jains into the grinder in present day Karnataka.

I know Saiva literature is also filled with such hatred for other religions including atheistic religions like Bowtham and Samanam.

Let me make one thing clear, I am not saying all these are to be taken to be literally true. The point is, taken figuratively, it is clear that even your watered down statement "Hindus do not go against the atheists" is untrue, historically. It is untrue even today as well, Arvind Kejriwal had to backtrack on his self declared atheism.

Your statement is somewhat true in the public sphere today, especially in Tamil Nadu, but it does not amount to "Hindus do not go against the atheists". The hatred for atheism among Brahmins (I don't know about NB, that is why I am commenting only about B's) is just as virulent as it has always been. You have yourself observed I am reviled here for my atheism.

One more angle:
Historically, Christians have been no slouches when it came to hatred against atheists. So, for a Pope to invite atheists to join with them is a big deal. Since you want to point out, erroneously as I have argued, that Hindus are not against atheists, let me suggest a revolutionary public statement one or all of the Shankarachariyars can make that would be equal in significance as that of Pope's invitation to atheists. Brahminism has been impeccable in its hatred of avarnas. Even the much vaunted Jnana Khandam says things like evil people will take evil birth like a dog, or a pig, or a Chandala. So, let a Shankarachariyar make a public statement and invite Chandalas to come and join with the Brahmins and do whatever they think is a good deed for humanity. That would be something to celebrate and I would be among the first one.
 
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