Pseduscience, spirituality and frauds

[nachi naga]

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Problem’s with today’s Education in India:

In 1835, Thomas Macaulay articulated the goals of British colonial imperialism most succinctly: “We must do our best to form a class who may be interpreters between us and the millions whom we govern, a class of persons Indian in blood and color, but English in taste, in opinions, words and intellect.” As the architect of Colonial Britain’s Educational Policy in India, Thomas Macaulay was to set the tone for what educated Indians were going to learn about themselves, their civilization, and their view of Britain and the world around them.

Today’s education ignores

• Imparting healthy values (samskarams) needed for molding one’s personality
• Does not tell enough about India’s contribution to humankind. Often student develops habit to reject finding’s of our sages with out proper study or experiment, resulting in loss of pride and despotation. One example is Yoga. Yoga is accepted as remedy for many health related issues in India after west started singing good about it.
• Education has become commercial venture. Education is imparted to merely enable one to earn money. Only people who can invest money can get “Money-Based education”.
• Money based education produces people who are at best selfish or agnostics or atheists. They want to keep there home clean but litter the street. It totally ignores mans binding with society and nature.
• Does not identify talents and nurture them. It is text book and marks oriented.
• Does not encourage entrepreneurship in students and dignity of labor. Students think that only through Job with Govt or company they can do some thing in life, with out which there life is failure......

 

[Raghy]

Sri.Sangom said:-

....You may be able to argue that your words did not amount to making fun of astrology but it is for the recipient to judge. Is it not?

Sri. Sangom, I have to agree with you here. I did not intend to hurt anyone's feelings. If I did, kindly pardon me. In my home, in those days, astrology was discussed widely, almost all the time. My father used to mention those terms like rented house, shared house etc. It was quite common in our vocabulary. By the way, any and every action was started only after consulting the horoscope, panchangam, horai, soolam...all the works. When I was young, I had faith in astrology; in fact, one of my close friend (nomore now) was an astrologer, pretty good at that. (he used to use a 7 digit logarithm table to accurately calculate angles...His home used to be littered with maps of the sky from different places..He showed me that astronomy is used to get the accurate position of the planets. Science ended there. From that point, it was the individual astrologer's oratory skills; knowledge of 'hard to find' informations decided the predictions. We don't know howmany predictions came to pass....may not be a huge percentage...could be under 1%? I don't know.

By the way, I wouldn't compare cardiac surgeons to astrologers though; I know in India கை ராசி is a big thing. Some surgeons are more successful than the others. But the actual reason very well could be, some surgeons are more sincere and more responsible than the others.I live in Australia. True, some surgeons are more nimble than the other surgeons and quicker; but when it comes to rate of success, most of the surrgeons are the same. Again such things can be traced and recorded; a consistency can be obtained.

Cheers!

 

[Nara]

.... the use of the term வாடகை வீடு was uncharitable. [....] You may be able to argue that your words did not amount to making fun of astrology but it is for the recipient to judge. Is it not?

Dear Shri sangom,

Please permit me a comment on this issue of uncharitable remark and making fun.

In any discussion we must refrain from any personal attack or ridicule. We must always show respect and civility. But, IMO, ideas do not get this same courtesy that people deserve. Deriding an idea that one views as unacceptable should be allowed as long as it is not gratuitous and free of logical fallacies.

Cheers!

 

[Somayaji.S]

My quiry is NOT the definition of Co-planarity from WIKIPEDIA (cut and paste) as given below:-

(quote from Wikipedia)

"Coplanarity

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Distance geometry provides a solution to the problem of determining if a set of points is coplanar, knowing only the distances between them.

Plane Formula

".-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------.
One advantage of this technique is that it can work in hyper-dimensional space. For example, suppose you wanted to compute the dihedral angle between two m-dimensional hyperplanes defined by m points in n-dimensional space. If n − m > 1, then there are an infinite number of normal vectors for each hyperplane, so the angle between two of them is not necessarily the dihedral angle. However, if you use Gram-Schmidt process using the same initial vector in both cases, then the angle between the two normal vectors will be minimal, and therefore will be the dihedral angle between the hyperplanes."(en-quote)



This we learn in Distance Geometry/Co-ordinate geometry in Honours
_______________________________________________________________________
My question is When Chandra "Appears to Enter" into Kritthika first Paadham--are the six stars of the constellation and the satellite moon are co-planar ? will Two persons standing at two points, 180 degrees from one another,visualise the phenomenon in the same way? The Super astrologers in India preparing the Panchaangam for USA,though say they take "AHAS" into consideration, do they take into consideration, coplanarity,parallelax error?--I would be very obliged and thankful to anybody -informed inthe subject-who gives specific answers to my question.

 

[nachi naga]

My quiry is NOT the definition of Co-planarity from WIKIPEDIA (cut and paste) as given below:-

(quote from Wikipedia)

"Coplanarity

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Distance geometry provides a solution to the problem of determining if a set of points is coplanar, knowing only the distances between them.

Plane Formula

".-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------.
One advantage of this technique is that it can work in hyper-dimensional space. For example, suppose you wanted to compute the dihedral angle between two m-dimensional hyperplanes defined by m points in n-dimensional space. If n − m > 1, then there are an infinite number of normal vectors for each hyperplane, so the angle between two of them is not necessarily the dihedral angle. However, if you use Gram-Schmidt process using the same initial vector in both cases, then the angle between the two normal vectors will be minimal, and therefore will be the dihedral angle between the hyperplanes."(en-quote)



This we learn in Distance Geometry/Co-ordinate geometry in Honours
_______________________________________________________________________
My question is When Chandra "Appears to Enter" into Kritthika first Paadham--are the six stars of the constellation and the satellite moon are co-planar ? will Two persons standing at two points, 180 degrees from one another,visualise the phenomenon in the same way? The Super astrologers in India preparing the Panchaangam for USA,though say they take "AHAS" into consideration, do they take into consideration, coplanarity,parallelax error?--I would be very obliged and thankful to anybody -informed inthe subject-who gives specific answers to my question.

My question is When Chandra "Appears to Enter" into Kritthika first Paadham--are the six stars of the constellation and the satellite moon are co-planar ? will Two persons standing at two points, 180 degrees from one another,visualise the phenomenon in the same way? The Super astrologers in India preparing the Panchaangam for USA,though say they take "AHAS" into consideration, do they take into consideration, coplanarity,parallelax error?--I would be very obliged and thankful to anybody -informed inthe subject-who gives specific answers to my question.

moon travels on the lunar mansions namely 27.which we denote using thithis.thereby giving us 30 thithis(shukla paksham & krishna paksham) or a lunar motnh.due to akarshna shakthi,the fluids in the realm of the moon,do get fluxed.human body constitutes of fluids only.subtle effects are definitely felt owing to this force.the sun is the primary celestial body.even scholl level lab experiments prove,the sun's radiating power,on life forms.consideration for parallax,geo-centric or helio-centric views or apparent views are considered as drishthi.sun is exalted in mesham rasi just as moon is exalted in katakam.ultimately its the subtle rays owing to reflection and refraction,which plays the significant role for manas,budhi,ahamkaram....dunno if this is your query?

panchangam preparation is done based on geographical area on earth.naturally sun rise sun set ,moon rise moon set will vary from place to place,owing to the orbit of the earth itself.therefore thithis will be differing in time.in usa itself,there are different time zones.publishing a panchangam itself is a voluminous subject.we have soura manam,chandra manam,savana manam,nakshatra manam,brahaspathyam ...for almanac publication...then we use surya siddhantham,vararuchi vakya ,aryabhateeya,drik ganita...then nirayana system using ayanamsham...and so on...the govt of india uses year 285 ce as the zero year caled chaitra patusha ayanamsha under guidance from scientict saha...which now is known as lahiri ayanamsham or chitra paksham ayanamsham....we have raman ayanamsham...fagan-bradley... pancha angam (five limbs) thithis,vara,nakshatra,yoga,karana....then we have 60 year cycle...muhurtham...so on
source:internet.

 

[happyhindu]

This is not intended to rub the wrong side of astrologers. I do love astrology and do the required prayers. But i think ultimately only God to decides fate.

In astrology there are several combinations due to which seperations or divorces can take place.

After a divorce an astrologer will say the seperation took place due to so and so combination that came into effect at a certain time.

Case 1:
An aunt had the most miserable marriage (typical arranged marriage where the couple knows nothing of each others' personal traits). But an astrologer (a famous one in chennai) said the compatibility b/w her and her husband is excellent.

This aunt did not divorce. She kept quite inspite of the barbs, taunts and all, bcoz she was afraid of social stigma and feared that no one wud marry her children.

Like this, i can count so many arranged marriages of the previous generation that wud have broken up but did not (bcoz women were afraid of social stigma). I do not think astrologers can claim that made the right predictions in such cases.

Case 2:
A friend became a widow just a year+ after marriage. Her newborn was only 20 days old. Her husband passed away bcoz his scooter met with an accident. You can imagine the shock. But an astrologer (supposed to be a very learned elderly experienced one) who had matched the horoscopes said she wud always be a sumangali. Even from her husband's horoscope no one (later) was able to pin point what caused the short-life. When i asked someone he said the short-life was possibly caused due to the new born baby who was destained to be seperated from his father. Though the seperation was only supposed to be for only a particular period of time, it resulted in taking away his father's life. Could any astrologer prevent this? So you see, only God is the master planner and decider ultimately.

Astrology is all very nice. But we never know what God has in store for each one. Until the time man becomes God himself, accuracy of predictions cannot be assured, imho.

 

[sangom]

By the way, I wouldn't compare cardiac surgeons to astrologers though; I know in India கை ராசி is a big thing. Some surgeons are more successful than the others. But the actual reason very well could be, some surgeons are more sincere and more responsible than the others.I live in Australia. True, some surgeons are more nimble than the other surgeons and quicker; but when it comes to rate of success, most of the surgeons are the same. Again such things can be traced and recorded; a consistency can be obtained.

Cheers!

கை ராசி is the thing which causes success. When we say that one gynaecologist (their area is comparatively less risky, so I am leaving out cardiac surgeons) has கை ராசி, he/she has more % of successful deliveries done or caesarians performed, without any after-effects; so people throng to a few gynecs, even if there are many gynecs in the same hospital, using the same facilities and supporting staff. It is, to begin with, not a question of sincerity or perhaps even nimbleness, but as the bad name gets stronger such "isolated" doctors become not bothered and that further complicates things for them. Perhaps, such people are not "made" for the occupation they chose.

As regards your attitude towards astrology, I can now very well realise that the atmosphere of undue reliance on astrology, in which you grew up might have prejudiced your views; that's but natural. We cannot and should not look to astrology for anything and everything. It can only give you something like an outline map to alter which will be very difficult. The various details within that map is largely for individual efforts to complete.

I can give one example; a relative of mine is very interested and has a good knowledge of Carnatic Music. He wanted his daughter to become a good musician and started sending her to a tution master and she was also willing because her friends were learning CM. Once when I heard her sing, I felt she may not be cut out for that. So, I asked him to consult a good astrologer, (I also went with him) and asked whether the girl has potential for music, if we put in more effort. The astrologer said that it would be next to impossible to make her learn Carnatic Music, though she may have a taste for the light music type and there too she may not become a known singer and asked us not to trouble that girl unnecessarily.
It is only in such areas that we may take the help of astrology.

 

[sangom]

This is not intended to rub the wrong side of astrologers. I do love astrology and do the required prayers. But i think ultimately only God to decides fate.

In astrology there are several combinations due to which seperations or divorces can take place.

After a divorce an astrologer will say the seperation took place due to so and so combination that came into effect at a certain time.

Case 1:
An aunt had the most miserable marriage (typical arranged marriage where the couple knows nothing of each others' personal traits). But an astrologer (a famous one in chennai) said the compatibility b/w her and her husband is excellent.

This aunt did not divorce. She kept quite inspite of the barbs, taunts and all, bcoz she was afraid of social stigma and feared that no one wud marry her children.

Like this, i can count so many arranged marriages of the previous generation that wud have broken up but did not (bcoz women were afraid of social stigma). I do not think astrologers can claim that made the right predictions in such cases.

Case 2:
A friend became a widow just a year+ after marriage. Her newborn was only 20 days old. Her husband passed away bcoz his scooter met with an accident. You can imagine the shock. But an astrologer (supposed to be a very learned elderly experienced one) who had matched the horoscopes said she wud always be a sumangali. Even from her husband's horoscope no one (later) was able to pin point what caused the short-life. When i asked someone he said the short-life was possibly caused due to the new born baby who was destained to be seperated from his father. Though the seperation was only supposed to be for only a particular period of time, it resulted in taking away his father's life. Could any astrologer prevent this? So you see, only God is the master planner and decider ultimately.

Astrology is all very nice. But we never know what God has in store for each one. Until the time man becomes God himself, accuracy of predictions cannot be assured, imho.

HH,

What you write is true. There is some power which controls and decides everything. We all know that death is certain for all of us. But do we, therefore, simply sit quite and say, "any way, I have to die; God will take care of everything if He wants, so why do anything?". We are subject to our physiological needs like hunger, thirst, etc., and to satisfy such physiological needs we act out the whole drama of life. Nor does any one take the view like, " I may have a long life of 100 years or so, then why hurry to get a job, get married, etc.? I will do everything leisurely." Thus, our individual efforts are unavoidable in living this life. We take the help of many things in making this life as congenial as possible. Astrology has been one such aid to - not only us, but to many peoples, but some religions prohibited its practice and so it then went out of use in those areas. Now astrology is slowly gaining believers in the west also.

Having said that, I agree there is enormous scope for research and development of astrology; in fact astrology cries for such improvement. The failed predictions/horoscope matching is very much there, but that is like the blood-letting stage of medicine. If efforts are made to adopt and rear this orphaned baby of a science it will definitely grow into a full-fledged science, I think.

 

[sangom]

Dear Shri sangom,

Please permit me a comment on this issue of uncharitable remark and making fun.

In any discussion we must refrain from any personal attack or ridicule. We must always show respect and civility. But, IMO, ideas do not get this same courtesy that people deserve. Deriding an idea that one views as unacceptable should be allowed as long as it is not gratuitous and free of logical fallacies.

Cheers!

Dear Shri Nara,

My objection was in using the words/concepts of வாடகை வீடு and கூட்டு குடித்தனம் which are not concepts accepted or used in astrology and hence it appeared as an attempt at making fun of astrology by adducing certain non-existent aspects. I have absolutely no quarrel about சொந்த வீடு, which is an astrological term. I feel if it is one thing to deny or prove as illogical, any idea, on the basis of logical arguments whereas just merely trying to use certain terminology in order to show an idea as laughable is another.

 

[sangom]

Sangom:-(Quote)To believe in astrology or not, is one's own choice. But deriding astrology without making a serious study of it is not correct. If, for example, I say genetics is all humbug because I don't have any knowledge about it, it will only show my lack of understanding.(en-quote)

sri.Sangom-please try to understand me in the right perspective.Hindu Astrology says if moon (Chandra)is in Pleiades(Kritthika),my birth star is Kritthika and my Janma Rasi is Mesham (if Kritthika Mudal Paadham) or Rishabam (if Kritthika 2,3,4 paadhams)The Constellation Pleiades is made up of 6 stars and all the 6 are NOT co-planarMoon,an earth,s satellite is several trillions miles orlight years from those 6 stars and it can NOT be co-palanar at ALL.This is for the Human eyes(Dhrk)-2 dimentional picture if observed from Ujjain.If observed from New York-almost 180 degrees away-Moon would "apparently appear to be in a constellation before or after Pleiades for the human eye(Dhrk).So it is NOT REALITY but a "RELATIVE" Appearence.=if predictions are made on the basis of Brhat Jadhakam --result will be Chaos.Readers Please give your "input" Now coming to Rahu and Kethu.They are Not planets.They say they are "Shadows"--Acharya sri.SANKARA says "Raagu Grastha Diwaakarendhu Sadrso"--Grastham=Pidikkirathu=holding in the grip.--If it grips only Sun(Suryoparaatham),we may say Moon's shadow--only Moon(Chandroparaadham) ,we may say earth's shadow.But Acharya swami says "Diwakara and Indu(Sun and Moon).Acharya swami is Intellectual giant of gargantuan Dimentions--he would NOT talk witout proper thinking.So ragu and Kethu are NOT shadows.(to be continued) --our friendss may give their "inputs" after i finish my arguments.

Dear Somaya,

There is a request, 'Readers Please give your "input"', as also another, '--our friendss may give their "inputs" after i finish my arguments.' I was waiting but now, I am posting this based on the first request.

I am not learned in astrology and so will not be a match for an erudite intellect like you. But still, is it necessary that we should have the Moon, or for that matter, any of the other 8 'planets' (I include Sun also here for the sake of convenience) when we are concerned only with its angular measurement?

Pleiades group of stars does not fill the entire 13deg 20' of Krittika, nor is it (or any star/ star group) situated on the/ near to the ecliptic/celestial equator, I suppose and these are just names given by old mariners for their convenience; our system concerns with dividing the celestial equator into 12 Rasis of 30 deg each/27 Nakshatras of 13 deg 20' each. These have been given names in tune with the old system, that is all I think.

Only the Krishnamurthi Paddhati attempted to propose the "effect" of the stars on the planets and houses but that Paddhati has not been widely acclaimed. Most follow the traditional system only.

Coming to parallax error, I suppose it will be minor, about 10 or 12 minutes of arc for two measurements of the Moon at the same instant, from two diametrically opposite points along the earth's circumference. Will it be all that relevant in astrological predictions? I do not know.

 

[Raghy]

Sri.Sangom said:-

கை ராசி is the thing which causes success. When we say that one gynaecologist (their area is comparatively less risky, so I am leaving out cardiac surgeons) has கை ராசி, he/she has more % of successful deliveries done or caesarians performed, without any after-effects; so people throng to a few gynecs, even if there are many gynecs in the same hospital, using the same facilities and supporting staff.

Sri.Sangom. Greetings. In a gynea or any other procedure, considerations paid to co-morbidities, infection control and the level of strelie field maintained governs the after-effect of the procedure. (More than anything, we see this more prominently in orthopaedic procedures). In India everything gets dramatised quite readily. It is really unfortunate.

that the atmosphere of undue reliance on astrology, in which you grew up might have prejudiced your views

Allow me to disagree, please. My views are not prejudiced. I have seen far too many predictions did not come to pass around me...(never in my personal case though). So, please don't reject my views as 'prejudiced'.

It can only give you something like an outline map to alter which will be very difficult.

There is nothing to alter from the outline map. I mean, if you refer to the planet positions as the outline map, then such positions are calculated and no room to alter anyway.

The various details within that map is largely for individual efforts to complete

The individuals do not know; that is why they approach an astrologer in the first place. Do the astrologers know how to direct the confused individual properly? Most often than not, they don't. I have yet to come across an astrologer who would accept and utter the words "I was wrong; I am sorry". If you have, kindly let me know. In the case of a surgeon the performance can be assessed objectively from the results; not in the case of an astrologer. Most astrologer would blame the victim blaming the victims level of faith.

I have noticed, a connection created between astrology and religion and faith. Lack of faith, lack of fear in God, lack of involvement in God worship are some of the excuses given by the astrolgers for a failed prediction.

.....It is only in such areas that we may take the help of astrologY

Astrologers are approached before making important decisions. Often times the astrologers are approached to guide in matters in which the astrologers may not have any idea at all. In fact, it was such a situation in the example quoted by you.

My point is simple. Astrologers are individuals who ride on high horses, readily blame the victims for their failed prediction. Astrologers incorrectly combine religion with astrology, there by deluding gullible persons. Astrologers use the vulnerable situation of the gullible persons to obtain monetary gains/ other favours/ centre of attraction/ position of power and influence / similar gains or combinations of similar gains. This is my observation; not prejudiced views.

Cheers!

 

[nachi naga]

our ancient indians,told us a method or gave a system,based on navagrahams,for a peaceful co-existence.more often than not,ultimately prayer faith is inculcated via jyotisham,as our sanathana dharma.each thtithi,nakshatra,graham has a lordship to pray or worship.this is a way.at the time of birth,its a snapshot,as to how the celestial objects are aligned.they are like a map.i do not know,how a map itself will take a person to a destination.one must have the competency to read a map,so that one can navigate their life,in the most optimum manner.this is our way of life.now,we dont need certificates from mlecchas,to say whats good for us and whats not good for us.imho.

the bottom line is,jyotisham promotes belief in one self to overcome any difficulties faced in life.promotes temple goership.promotes amity peace happiness.for this is an esoteric or mystical science.

for non-believers,this will not make head or tail,and morever becoz this science is from India,there are people who would like to bash jyotisham just for that.such evil hearts inimical to indians do exist,beware.

 

[Nara]

... I feel if it is one thing to deny or prove as illogical, any idea, on the basis of logical arguments whereas just merely trying to use certain terminology in order to show an idea as laughable is another.

Dear Shri sangom,

I agree with you, partially.

Ad Hominem is never acceptable. But mocking an idea must be allowed at least in some circumstances, when it is used as an adjunct to a cogent primarily argument. Other factors may also be important. In other words, ideas are not automatically exempt from getting mocked.

Cheers!

 

[Nara]

Dear Shri sangom,

The failed predictions/horoscope matching is very much there, but that is like the blood-letting stage of medicine. If efforts are made to adopt and rear this orphaned baby of a science it will definitely grow into a full-fledged science, I think.

You have pointed to the errors in prediction that occur in fields such as Medicine, Meteorology, and Earthquake prediction, and have made a special pleading for accepting Astrology also as science.

Science does have a demarcation problem, where do you draw the boundary between science and non-science or pseudoscience? But, the case of Astrology is clear cut.

At one time earthquakes were thought to be divine punishment. The Lisbon earthquake of 1755 on a holiday that flattened the entire city and brought all its churches tumbling down was seen as divine wrath. But knowledge in this field did not stand still. Geology and plate tectonics have advanced sufficiently to provide a cogent explanation for the causes of earthquake. The prediction relies on statistical analysis and therefore involves probability and margin of error.

The same is true with meteorology, the knowledge has been expanding. Today, cyclones can be predicted with a great deal of accuracy. The practitioners have worked hard to expand knowledge in the field. Here again, prediction involves statistical modeling and includes probability and margin of error.

Medicine today stands on a vast amount of knowledge. The days of blood-letting are long gone. Every procedure and treatment regimen is carefully developed based on latest science and tested using very rigorous methods. The practitioners work hard to bring advancement in science to the field by jettisoning things that don't work and adding practices that do help. While the skill and knowledge may differ from one practitioner to another, the underlying science is sound.

Now, take Astrology. It has been around for a long time, it is a Vedangam. Has there been any attempt to study the reasons for error and rectify or improve? Has there been any progress? Has there been any attempt by its practitioners to explain why errors occur? Has there been any attempt to develop limits for the errors. Do they even have any idea how to measure these errors? What have the practitioners done since the Vedic times to add knowledge to the field? Anything truly scientific in this field belongs to Astronomy that branched off a long time ago.

While the practitioners of Astrology did not care enough to study these matter seriously, there has been studies by others that show astrology to be no better than random chance. Even the Mars effect of Gauquelin, Frechman, who claimed a slight correlation between Mars in certain sectors and success in sports, has been shown to be a case of messing with the samples. BTW, if we were to find a way to calculate correlation between மொட்டைத்தலை and முழங்கால், it would be quite high indeed. Further, this double blind study, shows Astrology is no better than random chance in predictions coming true.

Much of science from Galileo to Kepler, and Darwin to Newton, have come after long years of dedicated effort. All of scientific developments have come from personal effort and dedication. Even today, no idea gets automatic funding. You have to convince funding sources that your idea is worth exploring. Many longitudinal studies covering long period of time have been conducted with public funding. Many inexact concepts in fields such as psychology have been studied over long periods of time.

After all these years, Astrology is stuck at the bloodletting stage, since its very inception, and the practitioners are unconcerned. Without doing anything a normal scientist would do, and further, completely unconcerned about it, believers in Astrology staking a claim to it being scientific is an insult to science.

Cheers!

 

[nachi naga]

Astrology and Scientific Hypocrisy
Jyotish and Scientific Method by Rekha I Nambiar
A scientific basis of Jyotish - SOLAR MAGNETISM INTEGRATES ASTRONOMY AND ASTROLOGY - alt.religion.hindu | Google Groups
VedicStore.com: Osho - Speaks on Astrology - A Door to Religiousness
Correlations, causative relationships...
Jyoti?a - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[sangom]

.After all these years, Astrology is stuck at the bloodletting stage, since its very inception, and the practitioners are unconcerned. Without doing anything a normal scientist would do, and further, completely unconcerned about it, believers in Astrology staking a claim to it being scientific is an insult to science.

Astrology is not even like psychology where one will find a number of people with identical or similar symptoms and study is possible on all such cases to determine the causes and cure, if possible. Astrology deals with the entire life of individuals, and not piecemeal. For any one individual - as I had written in a previous post - to follow a sufficiently large number of human beings through their entire lives, is an impossibility. Normally one would be able to start such a study only after learning astrology and it will be at least 20 years. Then he will have to get record of births as correct as possible. Assuming that one relies on records of good hospitals, he may take the births registered for the past one or two years and future births. Then comes the most difficult part of astrological research viz., to follow through the subjects throughout their lives. This will require a family effort or an institutional set-up. In India, as you may be aware, there were families of astrologers and it is reported that they used to have their own "granthhas" which were kept secret, much like Ayurveda in which also some families had researched and found out some effective remedies (see my anecdote below) which were never passed on outside the family. In course of time these families took to service or some other occupation and the "kula thozhil" completely forgotten. The palm-leaf manuscripts were ruined to dust. If now, a fresh attempt is to be made in astrological research it will require substantial funding. This is not easy. Nevertheless there are attempts being made in different parts of the world and I am sanguine that astrology will be recognised as a science in the not too distant future.

Anecdote:

During one of the staff training programmes of the institution in which I was employed, there was one young lady who was going bald from the forehead. Another participant, a Kerala Christian lady of 50+ years, advised her, during lunch time to try a particular oil preparation (I don't remember the details) which involved getting specific internal body parts of cows from the butcher. This was not possible for the affected person. We asked her how she got this secret medicine to which she said that her family was one of ayurvedic "vaidyans" but after her grandfather's time nobody took that line and a number of old palm-leaf manuscripts etc., got completely ruined due to neglect. This oil preparation and a few such items still remained in the knowledge of the family and they used to give the advice free to any one approaching them.

 

[Nara]

...Nevertheless there are attempts being made in different parts of the world and I am sanguine that astrology will be recognised as a science in the not too distant future.

Dear Shri sangom, is it not then reasonable to expect that it be not claimed as science until then?

Cheers!

 

[sangom]

Dear Shri sangom, is it not then reasonable to expect that it be not claimed as science until then?

Cheers!

Dear Shri Nara,

If that pleases you, OK. But to me it is a science in the nascent state, so I view it as a science, despite all the imperfections .

 

[Nara]

...If that pleases you, OK. But to me it is a science in the nascent state, so I view it as a science, despite all the imperfections .

Shri sangom, we are back where we started

Cheers!

 

[nachi naga]

nara,

today is Thursday or brihaspathi varam named after graham jupiter.this is science of time aka kala bhairavar.just becoz you changed your mind about indian life,does not mean rest of us will start believing you gulp !

 

[Somayaji.S]

Originally Posted by Nara
".After all these years, Astrology is stuck at the bloodletting stage, since its very inception, and the practitioners are unconcerned. Without doing anything a normal scientist would do, and further, completely unconcerned about it, believers in Astrology staking a claim to it being scientific is an insult to science."

As far as the views on Astrology is concerned,my views are exactly the same as Nara,till it is proved Scientific.(If the day is within my life-time)

Bloodletting(Raktha mokshanam in Ayurveda) still continues in Amchi medicine(Tibetean medicine practised by Lamas in Ladhak and Leh).My colleague (A Lama) was practising this till around 1997.It is rather painful and scarry.

Blood letting (Pleobhotomy--now Pleobhotomy has a differnt meaning in USA)is still practised in Modern medicine in a very controlled way in surgical theatre as a life-saving proceedure in one condition called Hemochromatosis(a genetic disorder in which too much of Iron is retained in the body)

In a sophisticated way with least pain or suffering Blood-letting (Raktha Mokshanam)is practised in Ayurvedha by using Leeches.My colleague (Late) Dr.S.Venkataragavan (Dr.SV) received the training,when he was Officiating Director of Central Research Institute for Ayurveda in Cheruthurutthy(Kerala) .He practised it in Madras in cases of Elephantiasis.(Yaanai-Kaal)--I was NOT very amused by his theory,but his patients claimed they got subjective well-being after each sitting.Dr.SV was a brilliant Astrologer,Erudite scholar in Sanskrit, Ayurveda and Sri-Vidhya Upaasana.His clients(in Astrology) included many "Money-bags" of Chennai.

After 1980 Blood-letting by Leeches is coming back again in a big way..In micro surgery after the surgery is over, small clots remain in capillaries and they may create major problems later.(Cardio-Cerebro vascular Accidents).So systamatically after the surgery Leeches are used to clear-up these clots.In Europe in many countries Leech Farms(I have a photo also) have roaring business.--USA -FDA in 2004 has approved using Leeches for Clot-clearing in Micro-surgeries,as an approved proceedure after a lapse of almost 200 years.

But Dr.SV learned a brilliant technique from Kerala ,which Europeans do not know.In Europe technique,once a Leech had sucked the blood,it can be used again only after all the blood is digested and assimilated by the Leech.But in SV's technique,he had an Ayurvedic emetic,(powder-) which he used to sprinkle in the water in the "Corning" glass-tray and leave the blood-sucked Leeches there.Within a couple of seconds the Leech will vomit out the entire blood,without even a drop in its stomach.(ofcourse the smooth muscle spasms of the organism is a little pathetic sight)--then he used to wash the Leech twice in Sterile water,spray a little Ethanol in its mouth--Leech is now ready to suck the blood again within a matter of a couple of minutes.

 

[sangom]

Originally Posted by Nara
".After all these years, Astrology is stuck at the bloodletting stage, since its very inception, and the practitioners are unconcerned. Without doing anything a normal scientist would do, and further, completely unconcerned about it, believers in Astrology staking a claim to it being scientific is an insult to science."

As far as the views on Astrology is concerned,my views are exactly the same as Nara,till it is proved Scientific.(If the day is within my life-time)

Bloodletting(Raktha mokshanam in Ayurveda) still continues in Amchi medicine(Tibetean medicine practised by Lamas in Ladhak and Leh).My colleague (A Lama) was practising this till around 1997.It is rather painful and scarry.

Blood letting (Pleobhotomy--now Pleobhotomy has a differnt meaning in USA)is still practised in Modern medicine in a very controlled way in surgical theatre as a life-saving proceedure in one condition called Hemochromatosis(a genetic disorder in which too much of Iron is retained in the body)

In a sophisticated way with least pain or suffering Blood-letting (Raktha Mokshanam)is practised in Ayurvedha by using Leeches.My colleague (Late) Dr.S.Venkataragavan (Dr.SV) received the training,when he was Officiating Director of Central Research Institute for Ayurveda in Cheruthurutthy(Kerala) .He practised it in Madras in cases of Elephantiasis.(Yaanai-Kaal)--I was NOT very amused by his theory,but his patients claimed they got subjective well-being after each sitting.Dr.SV was a brilliant Astrologer,Erudite scholar in Sanskrit, Ayurveda and Sri-Vidhya Upaasana.His clients(in Astrology) included many "Money-bags" of Chennai.

After 1980 Blood-letting by Leeches is coming back again in a big way..In micro surgery after the surgery is over, small clots remain in capillaries and they may create major problems later.(Cardio-Cerebro vascular Accidents).So systamatically after the surgery Leeches are used to clear-up these clots.In Europe in many countries Leech Farms(I have a photo also) have roaring business.--USA -FDA in 2004 has approved using Leeches for Clot-clearing in Micro-surgeries,as an approved proceedure after a lapse of almost 200 years.

But Dr.SV learned a brilliant technique from Kerala ,which Europeans do not know.In Europe technique,once a Leech had sucked the blood,it can be used again only after all the blood is digested and assimilated by the Leech.But in SV's technique,he had an Ayurvedic emetic,(powder-) which he used to sprinkle in the water in the "Corning" glass-tray and leave the blood-sucked Leeches there.Within a couple of seconds the Leech will vomit out the entire blood,without even a drop in its stomach.(ofcourse the smooth muscle spasms of the organism is a little pathetic sight)--then he used to wash the Leech twice in Sterile water,spray a little Ethanol in its mouth--Leech is now ready to suck the blood again within a matter of a couple of minutes.

Dear Somaya,

Thank you for the mine of information, new to most of us, I think.

 

[nachi naga]

YouTube - Evolution of God(s)

evolution of god,from a western targetted audience.

 

[Somayaji.S]

Dear sri.Sangom--Thank you very much for your kind sentiments--I know your deep appreciation for Hindu Astrology.I was also like you till about 5 years back.But the predictions of TWO most emeinent Astrologers in T.N. have completely "ruined"(peria Idi) my family.I quarrelled with them--what is the use?--Since then ,I hate Astrology like Cobra venom.I realise that it is NOT conducive for me at my age.Still I am NOT able to reconcile and I don't think that I will..

 

[sangom]

Dear sri.Sangom--Thank you very much for your kind sentiments--I know your deep appreciation for Hindu Astrology.I was also like you till about 5 years back.But the predictions of TWO most emeinent Astrologers in T.N. have completely "ruined"(peria Idi) my family.I quarrelled with them--what is the use?--Since then ,I hate Astrology like Cobra venom.I realise that it is NOT conducive for me at my age.Still I am NOT able to reconcile and I don't think that I will..

Dear Somaya,

Pl. see my pvt msg.