QuickRef: The Institution of Caste in India: Positive Aspects

[sapthajihva]

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.....
I offer this bet to any takers here. Put your faith on the line if you can.

A bet in such matters always bolsters the ego; bhakthi is more likely to diminish.

The predicament of one's life depends on how one controls the gunas (for most, the gunas are the controlling element), and the type of prarabdha that is being exhausted.

One cannot say, without the adequate means, what another would be.

Blindly claiming that Bhagavan would change your view, would only be an extension of my ego. To top that, I would probably be the last ranked in his bhaktha list to even venture to him to suggest anything...!

So you see sir, my faith is on its own line, neither for you nor for me, but for him...

Regards,

 

[Nara]

sravna, I will try to respond to you to the best of my ability.

Vedas, for example provide a theory of spiritual reality and how
having come into existence into the material world we have to conduct ourselves not only for quality of life but also to go to our rightful place of spiritual reality.

The physical reality is all around us, we may not understand it fully, but we can see it and can't be denied. But the spiritual reality you are referring to is not apparent. For some, it is as real or even more real than the physical reality, and that is fine for them. But it has to remain in the realm of their own speculation only.

The word "theory" means different things to different people. In science a theory is a set of hypotheses built upon evidence. It is not based on just speculation.

So, the theory of spiritual reality you are talking about, cannot be discussed in a logical fashion as the frame of reference is very elusive.

Anyway Nara Ji, could you tell us what is the real value added by Science and Technology in ensuring enduring happiness

Science is a process of inquiry, it has no sense of human happiness any more than a piece of stone lying on the street. Science began when humans began to observe nature around them and tried to understand it.

Technology is a way to use science. Humans have benefited tremendously from science and technology. IMO, science and technology has provided a tremendous level of health and prosperity to all humans irrespective of who came up with the science or the technology. This health and wealth is the foundation upon which happiness must be built. Even our forefathers have said this when they identified three basic classes of human pursuits for their happiness, அறம், பொருள், இன்பம், to which a fourth was added, namely, வீடு.

The first three come from science. Some may argue how அறம் comes from science. But it does, because, அறம் is basic human ethics derived from a rigorous process of thinking about what is best for the society, a branch that can be broadly called philosophy, not the religious kind that comes from handed down divine and inerrant texts.

Without these scientific endeavors we will still be in the African savanna, living and dying not very differently from the apes, completely oblivious of happiness.

Also you would want to lend more credence to the overall authenticity of what it says.

I don't understand this, please explain.

Cheers!

 

[nachi naga]

Humans are divided into 4 Varnas according to the work done by them. Maharishi Dayanand in his book Rig Ved Adi Bhashya Bhumika (varna ashram vishya) states that:

"Yah vishesha janna chaiye ki pratham Manushya jaati sabki ek hai"

It is important to know that human caste is only one and is the same.

"Manushya jaati ke Brahmin, Kshtriya, Vaishya, Shoodra ye varna kahate hai. Vedriti se inke do bhed hai - Ek Arya aur doosra Dasyu. Arya arthat shrestha aur Dasyu arthat dushta swabhav yukta manushya ke ye do bhed jaan le"

Brahmin, Kshatriya, Vaishya and Shoodras are the Varna of human caste. According to Ved humans are divided into 2 groups namely Arya and Dasyu. Arya means person with noble and benevolent qualities and Dasyu means person with bad qualities.

"Inka naam varna isliye hai ki jaise jiske gun karm ho, vaisa hi usko adhikaar dena chaiye"

These are called Varnas because whatever the qualities and work of a human being is; accordingly they should be classified.

The four Varnas are as follows:

Brahmin - a person with best qualities and conduct who has read and preaches Satya knowledge.
Kshatriya - a person with best qualities and conduct who is able to rule, protect the weak and punish the wicked according to Dharma.
Vaishya - a person with best qualities and conduct who is able to successfully run business and trade and increase the wealth of the country in line with the Dharma.
Shoodra - those who are not intellectual enough to pursue studies and do the other work (eg cleaning, manual labour etc) in line with Dharma.
"Mukhbahurupjjanam ya jatyo loke bahih. Malechvachashcharyavachah sarve te dasyavah smritah". Manu Smriti 10/45

Whoever does not fall in the work category of the 4 varnas and renounces benevolent karmas (duties); whether their name is of Sanskrit or any other language is called a Dasyu.

There are 16 Sacraments in human life according to Vedas. But before we explain the sacraments lets explain the scientific aspects of Agnihotra or Havan or Homa or Yajna (Adhvar). [As per Nirukta 1/8 "Adhvar eti yajnanaam. Dhvartihinsakarma tatpratishedh" The name of Yajna is Adhvar and the meaning is nonviolent work.]:

First of all we should understand that fire does not destroy the material put into it, instead as per scientific view it converts the gross object into atoms or more precisely electrons. Whatever we put into the fire in the process of Yajna is converted into the atomic particles and spreads in the atmosphere within the house. We can identify some and can not identify others. For example; if we carry a chilli in our pocket, nothing happens to anybody but if we start powdering it, almost instantly we start sneezing and if we put it in the fire everyone inside that house will be troubled. Why would they be troubled? Because it is the function of the fire to break the gross object into atomic particles and the particles instead of being limited to one place spreads in the atmosphere of the house. Similarly, the objects put into the fire during Agnihotra spreads into the home atmosphere. Also the qualities of the object increases when put into fire. Fire has the qualities of turning the object into ‘Quantitative’ and ‘Qualitative’ Particles. For example, a doctor prescribes the vapours of equilyptus oil for coughs etc. because the qualities of the oil increases when mixed with the vapours of water or when it is put into boiling water. This is used in Allopathy, Ayurvedic and Homoeopathy treatments.

Now the question arises that how does the atomic particles affect the health of a person?

The answer is simple, a person’s health depends on the purity of his/her blood and blood gets oxygen from lungs via heart. If the lungs have qualitative oxygen the blood will consume good oxygen and hence the body will be healthy. The opposite is the case when oxygen is consumed in stinking and polluted environments.

Now the question arises that with Agnihotra there is also a generation of carbon dioxide which is believed to be a harmful gas. Does that not make Agnihotra hazardous?

Not at all, as all of us are aware that carbon dioxide is necessary for the plants and to maintain the ecology. The carbon dioxide generated from Agnihotra contains particles of the Samagri (mixture of herbs and other products) used, which contains many medicinal and antibacterial herbs, which minimises the effect on humans and are very good for the plants health. Thus performing Yajna everyday rids the house of the harmful bacteria and gives fresh and healthy atmosphere.

Apart from destroying harmful bacteria and clearing the atmosphere, there is another use of Agnihotra – it solves the problem of rain. How it brings rain is very simple; water and ghee (clarified butter) both freezes with cold and melts with heat. Ghee has got a lower freezing point than water. The atomic particles of ghee from Havan when reaches certain height, freezes there and also force the vapours or moisture to cool down and rain. Westerners always say that if we could apply cold to the bottom of clouds, they will pour in the form of rain.

Now the question arises that if Agnihotra is useful as above, what purpose is there for chanting the Vedic mantras with it?

Now to understand about the chanting of the mantras, we first have to understand a bit about Orthopaedic treatment. In this treatment the ailments used are exercise and sound therapy (Ultrasonic or supersonic wave treatment). The equipment for sound therapy generates sound of different and varying frequencies and stimulates the part of the body that is sore and hence cures it. This treatment is normally applied for 5-7 minutes a day. The chanting of the Vedic mantras in a specified way generates the equivalent sound frequencies, hence benefiting the listeners.


Before we start explaining the 16 Sanskaars or sacraments lets look at Shatpath Brahman 11/3/1 (this explains about the type of Agnihotra by means of conversation between Maharishi Yajnavalkya and King Janak):

"Vaak is agnihotra ki agnihotri Gou hai. Man bachda hai. Man aur vaak saman hote hue bhi nana hai. Isliye bachde ko aur maa ko ek hi rassi se bandhate hai. Shraddha tej ya agni hai. Satya aajya ya ghee hai". 11/3/1/1

Voice is the cow of this agnihotra. Mind is the calf (one who consumes the milk of agnihotra via voice). Mind and voice are similar yet different. That is why the calf has been tied with the cow using the same rope (this connotes that mind and voice both are required for agnihotra. Voice to sing the mantras and mind to meditate on the almighty and also on the good duties one will perform from now on. Devotion is termed as refulgence or fire in a agnihotra. Satya (absolute truth) is termed as Aajya (ahuti or oblation) or Ghee (clarified butter).

Janak Vaidehay ne Yajnavalkya se poocha - 'Hey Yajnavalkya! kya tum agnihotra ko jante ho?' 'Han samrat, janta hun.' 'Kya hai?' 'Doodh hi hai.' 11/3/1/2

King Janak asked Yajnavalkya "Hey Yajnavalkya, do you know agnihotra?".

Yajnavalkya replies "Yes O King".

King - What is it?

Yajnavalkya - It is milk.

'Yadi doodh na ho to kiski ahuti doge?' 'Chawal ya jo ki.' ' Agar chawal ya jo na hon to kiski ahuti doge?' 'Anya aushadhion ki.' 'Yadi anya aushadhi na hon to kis ki ahuti doge?' ' Jangli aushadhion ki.' 'Yadi jungle ki aushadhiyan na hon to kiski ahuti doge?' 'Vanaspati ki.' 'Yadi vanaspati na hon to kiski ahuti doge?' ' Jal ki.' 'Yadi jal na ho to kiski ahuti doge.' 11/3/1/3.

King - If milk is not available then what ahuti (oblation) will you give?

Yajnavalkya - Rice or Barley.

King - If there is no rice or barley then?

Yajnavalkya - Other Aushadhis (General or Gramya aushadhi's are the bushes & plants that have dried after their fruits have ripened).

King - If there is no Gramya aushadhi available then?

Yajnavalkya - Wild Aushadhis.

King - what if wild aushadhis are unavailable?

Yajnavalkya - Vanaspati (Plants or trees which produce fruits without flowering is called vanaspati. eg. gular or wild fig tree, peepal etc. The ones which produce fruit after flowering is called Vanaspatya).

King - In the absence of vanaspati?

Yajnavalkya - Oblation of water.

King - If water is unavailable then what oblation will you give?

Usne kaha - 'agar kuch na hoga to satya ki shraddha main.' Tab raja ne kaha - 'Yajnavalkya! tum agnihotra ko jante ho. Main tumko sau gayen deta hun.' 11/3/1/4

Yajnavalkya - if nothing is available then oblation of Satya in devotion is given.

King - Yajnavalkya! you know agnihotra. I'm donating you one hundered cows.

The above conversation between King Janak and Maharishi Yajnavalkya was given to resolve the problem of agnihotra in emergency as well as it highlights the significance of oblation in agnihotra. Agnihotra is not limited to improving the atmosphere and increasing the health benefits for human body but it also emphasise the feeling of tyaag (non-attachment) in humans thus suppressing the enemies of humanity like greed, lust, prejudice etc. As explained above, the physical properties of the materials is enhanced by Agnihotra; similarly by giving the oblation of Satya in Devotion (Shraddha actually means "Satya me aastha" or accepting the things as they really are) enhances the quality of Satya. In simple words if a person becomes a devotee of Satya i.e. he/she does not compromise with Asatya or untruth for material benefits, then only that person is on the path to true happiness. Below is the English translation of a quote by Maharishi Dayanand from Satyarth Prakash:

"A person who resolves to stick to the truth (Satya) at all costs, steadily rises in virtues. When his virtues raise his reputation and prestige, he becomes all the more a devotee of truth (Satya). This devotion to truth becomes an unerring source of power and greatness."

Below is a quote by Bhartrihari (A great Sanskrit grammarian, philosopher and poet):

"The worldly - wise may praise one or condemn, fortune may smile on him or frown on him, death may come at this very moment or after ages, but a wise man, does not swerve from the path of justice."

Maharishi Swami Dayanand Saraswati has given the 5 tests of truth (Satya) in Satyarth Prakash Chapter 3 as per below:

1. The Veda and nature of God - All that conforms to the teachings of the Vedas, nature, attributes and characteristics of God is right, the reverse is wrong.

2. Laws of Nature - All that tallies with laws of nature is true, the reverse untrue; e.g., the statement that a child is born without the sexual union of its parents, being opposed to the laws of nature can never be true.

3. The practice and teachings of A'ptaas, -i.e., pious, truthful, unprejudiced, honest, and learned men. All that is unopposed to their practice and teachings is acceptable and the reverse is unacceptable.

4. The purity and conviction of one's own soul. - What is good for you is good for the world. What is painful to you is painful to others. This ought to be the guiding principle of one's conduct towards others.

5. Eight Type of evidence -

· Direct Cognizance (Praatyaksha) is that kind of knowledge, which is the result of direct contact of the five senses with their objects,* of the mind (faculty or organ of attention) with the senses, and of the soul with mind. NYAAYA Shaastraa 1: i, 4.

1. But this knowledge must not be that of the relation of words with the things signified, as of the word "water" with the fluid called "water", For example, you ask your servant to bring you some water. He brings water, puts it before you, and says: 'Here is water, Sir.' Now, what you and your servant see is not the word "water" but the object signified by it. So you have the direct knowledge of the object called water. But the knowledge must not be of temporary or transient character, i.e., not the product of observation under unfavourable circumstances; for example, a person saw something at night and took it for a man , but when it was daylight he found out his mistake and knew that it was not a man, but a pillar. Now, his first impression of the thing was of a temporary or transient nature, which gave place to permanent knowledge later on, when the true nature of the thing was revealed in the light.

2. It should be free from all elements of doubt, and be certain in character. For example, you see a river from a distance and say: "Is it water there or white clothes spread out to dry?" Or take another example, you see a man from a distance and say: Is it Deva Datta standing there or Yajna Datta?" Now, as long as you are in doubt and consequently not sure about a thing you observe, your knowledge cannot be called Pratyaksha (Direct Cognizance). To be that the element of doubt must be absolutely eliminated from it.
Briefly therefore, that knowledge alone is said to be Direct Cognizance, which is not the outcome of the relation of name with the object signified by it, nor gained under circumstances unfavourable for observation or experiment (Hence transient in character) nor into which any element of doubt enters.

· Anumaana - inference - Literally it means that which follows direct cognizance. Two things have been observed to exist together at some time and place, when on some other occasion, one of the woe is observed, the other, i.e., the unknown can be inferred.* For instance, you see a child and you at once infer that he must have had parents. Again, seeing the smoke issuing from behind a hill you infer the existence of fire. You infer the previous incarnation of the soul form observing unequal joy and sorrow in this world at the present moment.
Inference is of three kinds:-
1. Purvavat - is one , in which you reason from cause to effect, e.g., the inference of coming rain form the sight of clouds; or, again, you see a wedding and naturally infer see students engaged in the pursuit of knowledge and you infer that some day they will become men of learning.
2. Sheshavat - inference is one, in which you reason from effects to causes. Examples:- You see a flood in the river, and infer that it must have rained on the mountain from which the river issues. Again, you see a child and at once infer that the child must have had a father. Again, you see this world and infer the existence of the Spiritual cause - the Creator, as well as of a Material cause - the elementary matter. Or, again, take another example. When you se a man in pleasure and pain, you at once infer that he must have done a virtuous or sinful deed before, since you have noticed that the consequence of a sinful act is pain, and that of a virtuous deed, pleasure.
3. Aaamaanyatodrishata - is that kind of inference, in which there is no relation of cause and effect between the known datum and the thing to be inferred, but there is some kind of similarity between the two. For example, you know that no one can get another place without moving from the first, and hence, if you find a person at a certain place, you can easily infer that he must have come to the latter place by moving from the first.

· Upamaana - Analogy - is the knowledge of a thing from its likeness to another. The thing which is required to be known is called Saadhya, and tha which becomes the means of this knowledge from some kind of likeness between the two is called Saadhana
Examples: - a man says to his servant : "Go and fetch Vishnu Mittra." The latter answers that he does not know him, as he has never seen him before. Thereupon the master says :- You know Deva Datta, don't you?" Upon the servant's answering in the affirmative, his master continues: "Well, Vishnu Mittra is just like Deva Datta." So the servant went out to find Vishnu Mittra. As he was passing through a street, he saw a man very much like Deva Datta, and thought that, thta man must be Vishnu Mittra, and forthwith brought him to his master. Or, take another example. You want to know what a Yak is. Well, some one tells you, it is just like an ox. Next time you go to a jungle and happen to see an animal very much like an ox, you at once know that it is the Yak you asked your friend about. Now this kind of knowledge, i.e., knowledge of Vishnu Mittra from his likeness to Deva Datta and of a Yak from its likeness to an ox is calledUpamaana or knowledge by analogy. The words Vishnu Mittra and Yak are called Saadhya, whilst Deva Datta and ox are called Saadhana, in the above two instances.
· Shabda - Testimony (literally, word) - "The word of an A'pt (altruistic teacher) is called Shabda." NYAAYA Shaastra 1:,i, 7.
An A'pt is a person who is a thorough scholar, well versed in all the sciences and philosophies, physical and spiritual, is virtuous, truthful, active, free from passions and desires, imbued with love for others, and who is an altruistic teacher of humanity solely actuated with the desire of benefiting the world by his knowledge, experience and convictions. God being the truest and greatest of all A'ptas, HIs word the Veda is also included in shabda (Testimony).
· Itihaas - History - is that which tells us that such and such a person was so and so, he did such and such a thing. In other words, Itihaas is the history of a country or the biography of a person. NYAAYA Shaastra 2: 2,1.[The experience of the past recorded in history can be applied to solve many a difficult question of the day. - Tr.
· Arthaapatti - Conclusion or deduction. - It is a conclusion which naturally follows from the statement of a fact; for instance, one says to another: "Rain falls from clouds" or " and effect flows from a cause." The natural conclusion that can be drawn from the above statement is: "There can be no rain when there are no clouds," or "no effects follow when a cause does not exist."
· Sambhava - possibility. - When you hear a thing, the first thing that enters your mind is whether such and such a thing is possible. Anything that runs counter to the laws of nature is not possible, and hence it can never be true; for example, if you are told that a child was born without parents, such and such a person raised the dead to life again, or made stones float on the sea, lifted mountains, broke the moon into pieces, was God incarnate, or saw horns on the head of a man, or solemnized the marriage of a couple born of sterile mother. You could at once know that it could not have possibly happened, being opposed to the laws of Nature. That alone is possible which is in conformity with the laws of nature.
· Abhaava - Absence or Negation.- You infer the existence of a thing in some other place from its absence from the place where you were told you find it; for instance, a gentleman said to his man: "Go and bring the elephant from the elephant-house." He went there but found that the elephant was not there. He naturally conclude that he must be somewhere near about. So he went out and looked about for the elephant and found him not very far from its proper place and brought him to his master.
These eight kinds of evidence have been briefly described. Their number can be reduced to four if History be included under Testimony, and Deduction, Possibility, and Negation under Inference.*
It is only by means of these five criteria that a man can ascertain what is right or wrong and not otherwise.
Now lets name the 16 Sansakaars (sacraments) as per Vedic ideology:

Garbhadhaana
Punsavanam
Seemantonayanam
Jaatkaram
Naamkaranam
Nishkraman
Annaprashasan
Chudakaram
KArnabedh
Upnayan
Vedaarambh
Samavartan
Vivah
Vaanprasth Ashram
Sanyas Ashram
Anthyesthi

 

[sravna]

Shri Nara,

Whereas in Science mind is a means or a tool in acquiring knowledge, it is the focus or the object in the vedas which finally leads to knowledge automatically.

Vedas show us the the way to a better equipped mind which can not only accomplish the obective of Science more competently but also help in harmonious social interactions and inner peace.

You are underestimating the latent capabilities of the mind when you say that life without Science and Technology would be primitive.

Science is embraced in that stage of mind when its focus is external and so it actually comes within the scope of vedas

 

[nachi naga]

The sound of ‘ namah shivaya’ includes all the five elements – Earth, Water, Fire, Air and Ether. The sound or chant of " OM " is enuff as its beginningless and endless vibration. People have been chanting this for thousands of years. Mantras are those sounds which you hear from deep within during meditation and the aim is to bring one back to the source. During later days, people started putting icons and drawings to these mantras. Mantras have got certain vibrations/ energy. They are universal.

Even in churches in Latin America ‘Marnah nath’ is used. Its translation in Latin and Sanskrit is so close. For ‘Lord’ the word in Latin is nath and also in Sanskrit the word nath is used to mean ‘Lord’. So the word marnah nath meaning ‘My lord’ which is used in Christianity is actually a Sanskrit word.

Chanting in Sanskrit is beneficial because Sanskrit is the oldest language known to mankind. -- sri sri sri ravi shankar

 

[saidevo]

What varNa-vibhAgam, and jAti-lakShaNam did for ancient BhArat

In the history of any country--ancient and modern--there have always been five classes of people in the society, who were broadly classified under two heads: people belonging to the traditional divisions and those who were outsiders--varNa and avarNa in the Hindu parlance.

• The social structure of people who belonged to the four varNas facilitated them to earn their living by getting trained and being occupied in one or more of the hundreds of different occupations that uniquely highlighted the ancient Indian culture and tradition.

• People of the avarNa classification generally comprised of prisoners of war, aboriginals and tribes, and enemies. These people worked in the palaces and homes of the varNa-people as servants, attendants, washermen, fishermen, currier, mimic, mountaineers, and other such menial chores.

‣ They worked under their yajamAnas--patrons, whose tight control practically made them slaves with no rights to choose their own occupations, although they were not denied the basic rights of food, clothing and shelter, and the yajamAnas and the dAsas were guided by laws of one or more SmRties that applied to their times. More on this later.

‣ And certainly, while there were gradations and distinctions among the people of the four varNas, the avarNa people who were outsiders and outcasts were naturally considered antyaja--of lower caste.


While many--if not most--of us denounce caste and varNa in the modern society, we cannot deny the existence of these five classes of people in today's society, although the varNa-vibhAgam is not as marked now as it was in the olden days.

It is true that today, most people transcend their caste and varNa barriers in their occupations and daily living, and keep their caste labels only for the identity of family and tradition.

It is equally true that there are slaves in the modern society: prisoners of wars, aboriginals and tribes, and the people working under a yajamAna, engaged in one of the many tasks mentioned above. Today, bonded labour is a socially decried but secretly accepted norm, practised in their mildest to the most cruel forms in homes, factories and offices.

What progress has modern India made by intellectually, politically and lawfully encouraging transgression of varNa dharma, while actively conniving to foster the divisions and distinctions of caste for vested interests?

• A latest news item says that the Supreme Court has passed orders for more seats to be created in professional colleges for admission of candidates belonging to the Forward Caste--FC, who are denied, year after year, by the quota system of 69% in Tamilnadu and 50% or more in other states for the candidates of BC/SC/ST.

• People belonging to the FC usually migrate to Western countries for higher studies and work, and the governments cannot care less for the brain drain that ensues.

• The brain drain that has ensued due to the migration of merit has created sub-standard quality of work in the government sectors, with increasing demands for bribery at all levels to get things done.

• People who obtain jobs in the private sectors, specially in the corporate sector practically work as glorified slaves although they are paid very well, with no sufficient time to devote for their personal, religious or spiritual progress or even for the family.

• The less said about people who the country, the better. They are the people directly responsible for India still remaining as a developing country, with an abysmal gap between the haves and the have-nots. They are the people among whom, human and dharmic values are the lowest in the country.

As against this scenario, here is a compilation about what the varNa-vibhAgam--class distinctions, and jAti-lakShaNam--caste distinctions did for ancient BhArat, whose achievements are forever recorded in the annals of history.

From the book Labour in ancient India by K.M.Saran

• The contributions of the ancient Indians to philosophy, ethics, economics, politics, jurisprudence, astronomy, astrology, medicine, arts and literature and other branches of knowledge are still out-ranking and offer a solution to many problems which are regarded as insoluble today.

• The description given by Hiuen Tsang of a wide of in India is no doubt a reliable variety crops grown very proof of the extent to which agricultural industry was developed in those days. More evidences are available in Kautilya's Arthashastra and in quite a good number of ancient Indian scriptures.

• History also bears evidence that Indian traders carried on maritime traffic and overseas trade with China, Indo-China, Greece and Rome.

‣ Asoka's inscriptions show that India had connections (presumably trade and political connections) with Asia-minor and near-west countries.

‣ According to V.A.Smith, Pliny in the first and Ptolemy in the second centuries A.D. testified to the trade of India with the Roman empire.

‣ In his study of Vatsayayana's Kamasutra, Chakladar came to the conclusion that India's foreign trade was developed enough at the time of Fahien's visit.

‣ There is evidence of trading voyages to Burma, Malaya and Ceylon in early Magadhan epoch and some evidence of India's trade with foreign countries in the Rig Vedic days is also available.

‣ A recent book Hindu-America throws enough light on the trading operations carried on by the ancient Hindus in the places around the present Panama Canal. Further evidence is available in some of the authoritative works on ancient Indian history.

• The remains of the ancient Indian civilisation unearthed at Mohenjodaro, Harappa, Kaushambi and the various inscriptions found all over the country show that the development of goldsmithy, blacksmithy, carpentry, ivory-carving, ceramics industries and spinning and weaving of yarn and cloth was phenomenal in ancient India.

‣ The fact that these industries were fully established and well developed as early as 320 B.C.is proved by Kautilya's Arthashastra.

‣ Hiuen Tsang's accounts go a long way to testify to the development of Muslin, Calico, Linen and Wool spinning and weaving industries in the 7th century A.D..

‣ Banabhatta gives a list of such articles as Kshauma, Jatipattika and Chitrapat, Amsuka, Lalatantu, Netra, Dukula, Pushpapatta, Pulakharda and some other varieties of silk and cotton cloth.

‣ Amarkosa gives a wide variety of clothes used for different as well as of the materials purposes used for the manufacture of cloth.

‣ The sculpture and architecture of the Gupta age and the famous iron pillar at Delhi testify to the high degree of skill the stone cutters and the blacksmiths had achieved. A large number of guilds, to which we shall make a reference in a subsequent chapter, show the arts and crafts which were developed in ancient India.

‣ The evidences available of the Satavahana age prove that even hydraulic engines were used in those days. Greek authors have also given vivid accounts of the manufacture of arms, weaving of cloth embroidered with gold and ship-building industry in Mauryan times.

It is believed that so much development was to a great extent the benediction of the system of Varna and castes which, by virtue of its occupational bias, made specialisation in particular arts and crafts possible, and helped in the passage of such knowledge from one generation to the other. It necessitates a study of the system of Varna and Castes and the purpose such a system was supposed to serve.

*****

More on the 'study of the system of Varna and Castes' to follow...

 

[Nara]

Hello folks, People generally are entitled to whatever they want to believe in, but there is no right to have their opinion go unchallenged.

....In the history of any country--ancient and modern--there have always been five classes of people in the society, who were broadly classified under two heads: people belonging to the traditional divisions and those who were outsiders--varNa and avarNa in the Hindu parlance.

There are several problems with the above, I shall just state a few.

• The divisions in other societies are admittedly man-made, but the divisions in Hindu society are said to be of divine origins, the supreme god made these divisions.
• It is patently false that ancient and modern societies have always had precisely five classes of people.
• No modern society still clings on to any discriminatory divisions with passion and keep offering up justifications, not even the modern Indian society.
• No other society, sans Hindu, practices an elaborate hierarchical system, maintained through strict sub-group endogamy, and religious and social sanction that continues to the present day.

...And certainly, while there were gradations and distinctions among the people of the four varNas, the avarNa people who were outsiders and outcasts were naturally considered antyaja--of lower caste.

There is nothing natural about having gradations even within the in-group savarnas like Brahmanas down to Shudra. Even less natural is to treat the "outsiders" and the "vanquished" as permanently avarna for all generations to come till eternity, and have them do the meanest of menial jobs.

But, are the Hindu avarnas really the outsiders and the vanquished? There is no evidence to show this, may be some speculations, at best. On the other hand, there enough and growing DNA research that tells us the there is more that unites all of us, avarnas and savarnas alike, than that separates us.

the varNa-vibhAgam is not as marked now as it was in the olden days.

We know what happened to Ekalaiva and Shambuka in the ancient times. We know what happened to Nandanar in more recent past. We know what is happening right now, in this modern times. Varna has always been, and still is, a way to endlessly dominate, nothing more.

keep their caste labels only for the identity of family and tradition.

Caste label is unnecessary to follow any elevating family tradition. You don't need caste label to pay tribute to family elders who are living and the ones who have passed on, not needed to show love and compassion to all living beings, not needed to inculcate human values to the young, not needed to be religious if you want to. You need caste label only to separate yourself from others and promote this "us" and "them" mentality.

....It is equally true that there are slaves in the modern society: .... Today, bonded labour is a socially decried but secretly accepted norm, practised in their mildest to the most cruel forms in homes, factories and offices.

This is the most depressing of all. Why would anyone want to defend Varna system by citing cruel forms of discrimination and domination that are perpetrated by the unscrupulous, rogues scoundrels, and criminals? Is this what we have come to? Why would anyone want to say that caste/varna must be excused because the human kind has not eradicated hate everywhere? Does not make any sense to me.

...What progress has modern India made by intellectually, politically and lawfully encouraging transgression of varNa dharma, while actively conniving to foster the divisions and distinctions of caste for vested interests?

This is the other side of the last point above. I don't understand why the unscrupulous caste based politics practiced by the likes of Ramdoss is a justification for the continued practice of caste/Varna system. This is just plain crazy.

Leaving that aside, indeed modern India has made a lot of progress after coming to terms with the true nature of the caste system. Today, the lot of the least among us is very much better than what it was even some 20 to 30 years.

But, the progress is not just economic, even the forward castes have benefited economically. The real progress is the sense of self-respect among the dalits. No young Dalit today will meekly go with folded hands when insulted on the basis of caste. That is tremendous progress.

.... They are the people among whom, human and dharmic values are the lowest in the country.

A wild and unsubstantiated claim. Who are these people with human and dharmic values please?

From the book Labour in ancient India by K.M.Saran

The contributions of the ancient Indians to philosophy, ethics,.... astrology, .... offer a solution to many problems which are regarded as insoluble today.

[....]

All ancient societies contributed in one way or another. Look at Egyptian pyramids, Greek architecture and Roman engineering. Ancient India had its share of contributions no doubt. If there is anything amazing in this it is that they did it in spite of the repressive caste system.

Humans have committed lots and lots of atrocities over millennia. Nobody cites these atrocities as justification for continuing an age old oppressive system, not even those who were motivated by religion, except some extreme nut cases. Do we want to be like those extreme cases? Think about it, please....

Cheers!

 

[nachi naga]

nara,

If there is anything amazing in this it is that they did it in spite of the repressive caste system.

we do not know if the system was reppressive or oppresive?or do we?.

do we know whether the slave system in USA was repressive and oppresive for negroes? or do we?

In todays reality,caste in india is alike a snake de-poisoned & de-fangled.Simliarly slave system or racial bias & prejudice is a thing of the past in USA.let bygones be bygones,unless you want us Indians to start writing in every thread about american slave sysem of past,like you do about caste alongwith your cynical wry humor?Plz stop it.Inadvertently you are not only dividing us tambrahms in particular but Indians as a whole.

 

[saidevo]

namaste everyone.

saidevo said, post no.156:
In the history of any country--ancient and modern--there have always been five classes of people in the society, who were broadly classified under two heads: people belonging to the traditional divisions and those who were outsiders--varNa and avarNa in the Hindu parlance.

Nara said, post no.157:
The divisions in other societies are admittedly man-made, but the divisions in Hindu society are said to be of divine origins, the supreme god made these divisions.
=====

It is naive to think that the divisions in the Abrahamic religious societies are man-made. In these religions, mankind is broadly classfied as believers in their religions and non-believers--varNa and avarNa in the Hindu parlance. These divisions are not man-made, but divine--stated right in the Bible and Quran.

Our friend adds his own qualfications such as 'admittedly man-made', 'patently false' etc. and tries to generalise his own thinking and perceptions.

Here is what the Bible says about these two groups in some of its passages. Let us note specifically that the Bible advocates killing of the non-believers!

Have no liaison with the non-believers...
2 Corinthians 6:14 ESV
Do not be unequally yoked with unbelievers. For what partnership has righteousness with lawlessness? Or what fellowship has light with darkness?

...no relationships with them...
Deuteronomy 7:3-4 ESV
You shall not intermarry with them, giving your daughters to their sons or taking their daughters for your sons, for they would turn away your sons from following me, to serve other gods. Then the anger of the Lord would be kindled against you, and he would destroy you quickly.

...and kill them!
Deuteronomy 17:12 NLT
Anyone arrogant enough to reject the verdict of the judge or of the priest who represents the LORD your God must be put to death. Such evil must be purged from Israel.

Exodus 22:19 NAB
Whoever sacrifices to any god, except the Lord alone, shall be doomed.

2 Chronicles 15:12-13 NAB
They entered into a covenant to seek the Lord, the God of their fathers, with all their heart and soul; and everyone who would not seek the Lord, the God of Israel, was to be put to death, whether small or great, whether man or woman.

Deuteronomy 13:7-12 NAB
If your own full brother, or your son or daughter, or your beloved wife, or you intimate friend, entices you secretly to serve other gods, whom you and your fathers have not known, gods of any other nations, near at hand or far away, from one end of the earth to the other: do not yield to him or listen to him, nor look with pity upon him, to spare or shield him, but kill him.

If the Islamic jihad is based on the Quran and Hadith, the Christian crusade is justified in verses such as this one:

Jeremiah 48:10 NAB
Cursed be he who does the Lords work remissly, cursed he who holds back his sword from blood.

Ref:
What Does the Bible Say About Non Believers?
WikiAnswers - What verses in the bible advocate killing non believers

*****

Here is what the Quran says about believers and non-believers:

The Quran contains at least 109 verses that call Muslims to war with nonbelievers. Some are quite graphic, with commands to chop off heads and fingers and kill infidels wherever they may be hiding. Muslims who do not join the fight are called 'hypocrites' and warned that Allah will send them to Hell if they do not join the slaughter.

Unfortunately, there are very few verses of tolerance and peace to abrogate or even balance out the many that call for nonbelievers to be fought and subdued until they either accept humiliation, convert to Islam, or are killed. This proclivity toward violence - and Muhammad's own martial legacy - has left a trail of blood and tears across world history.

Qur'an (2:191-193) - "And slay them wherever ye find them, and drive them out of the places whence they drove you out, for persecution [of Muslims] is worse than slaughter [of non-believers]...and fight them until persecution is no more, and religion is for Allah." There is a good case to be made that the textual context of this particular passage is defensive war, even if the historical context was not. However, there are also two worrisome pieces to these verse. The first is that the killing of others is authorized in the event of "persecution" (a qualification that is ambiguous at best). The second is that fighting may persist until "religion is for Allah." The example set by Muhammad is not reassuring.

Qur'an (2:216) - "Fighting is prescribed for you, and ye dislike it. But it is possible that ye dislike a thing which is good for you, and that ye love a thing which is bad for you. But Allah knoweth, and ye know not." Not only does this verse establish that violence can be virtuous, but it also contradicts the myth that fighting is intended only in self-defense, since the audience was obviously not under attack at the time. From the Hadith, we know that Muhammad was actually trying to motivate his people into raiding caravans with this verse.

For more such verses, check
TheReligionofPeace - Islam: Verses of Violence

*****

Nara said, post no.157:
It is patently false that ancient and modern societies have always had precisely five classes of people.
=====

This again is a naive statement. Was there any time in the history of any country--including India--when there were no religions priests, rulers, businessmen, servants and slaves? Don't they exist, precisely in these forms of five classes, in the modern society?

Nara said, post no.157:
No modern society still clings on to any discriminatory divisions with passion and keep offering up justifications, not even the modern Indian society.
=====

All hunky-dory only in such sentences and wishful thinking! Are the rulers and ruled treated equally in the society of USA, which is touted to be the best democratic country in the world? To give just one example, what about the provisions and practises of Racial profiling I spoke about in my post no.21? Are they not observed 'with passion' and 'justifications'?

Nara said, post no.157:
No other society, sans Hindu, practices an elaborate hierarchical system, maintained through strict sub-group endogamy, and religious and social sanction that continues to the present day.
=====

Makes me laugh! The following is from a recent mail I received. Can our friend say that these groups below don't maintain their identities 'through strict sub-group endogamy'?

Christianity ….One Christ, One Bible Religion…

But the Latin Catholic will not enter Syrian Catholic Church.
These two will not enter Marthoma Church .
These three will not enter Pentecost Church .
These four will not enter Salvation Army Church.
These five will no enter Seventh Day Adventist Church .
These six will not enter Orthodox Church.
These seven will not enter Jacobite church.

Like this there are 146 castes in Kerala alone for Christianity,
each will never share their churches for fellow Christians!

One Allah, One Quran, One Nebi....! Great unity?

Among Muslims, Shia and Sunni kill each other in all the Muslim countries.
The religious riot in most Muslim countries is always between these two sects.
The Shia will not go to Sunni Mosque.
These two will not go to Ahamadiya Mosque.
These three will not go to Sufi Mosque.
These four will not go to Mujahiddin mosque.

Like this it appears there are 13 castes in Muslims.
Killing/bombing/conquering/massacring ... each other!

The American attack on Iraq was fully supported by all the Muslim countries surrounding Iraq!

*****

About some of the other points in Nara's post no.157, later...

 

[Raghy]

Sri.Saidevo said (in post #66 in this thread):-

Nobody (including me) is saying that the caste system was/is a wonderful/infallible thing--only that it does have positive aspects; and that the systems of hierarchy that exist in today's modern social life are not any better than the caste system in many--although different--respects.

The plain fact is that all men are not treated equal because all men are not created equal. When this fact is accepted without any qualms in the other hieararchies of social life, all the hue and cry raised against the caste and varNa system are only deliberate attempts to disown and mislead, without getting into its purportedly [COLOR=#5EA0C3 ! important][COLOR=#5EA0C3 ! important]spiritual[/COLOR][/COLOR] design.

Since all men are not created equal they have varying capabilities which chalk out their life styles. As to the question of providing leverages to the meritorious, it has always existed in the [COLOR=#5EA0C3 ! important][COLOR=#5EA0C3 ! important]Hindu[/COLOR][/COLOR]
Indian society right from the Vedic times.

Sri.Saidevo, greetings. You said in the above quotation that "The plain fact is that all men are not treated equal because all men are not created equal". I set aside the debate about 'creation' for the time being. What you mentioned there is 'your opinion', but not a 'plain fact'. When you say 'all men are not created equally', do you mean to say that the creater is discriminating against the new-borns by creating them in different varnas and there by creating them in a different level of society? I am not convinced that all the jobs are equal; Are you willing to say that head of a mutt job, which is a brahmin varna job is equal to a sudhra job, say cleaning the street? Would you honestly say that both those persons, that is the head of the mutt and the seeper of the street would get an equal respect?

If the creater is discriminating this way, I was asked to find out the reason. You know the common reason? It is the 'karma palan' or the effects of karma. So, the people who did the bad karma reincarnated in lower varnas. In my opinion, there are fundemental flaws in this whole thing. If brahmins were such 'punya Atmans' how come they did not continue to be a punya Atman and treated all the varnas equally?
Secondly, how did the creater discriminate foreigner creations? They were all treated equally as 'mlechaas', just one classificvation across the board. Does it mean all the foreigners were absolutely equal in their karmas?

....When this fact is accepted without any qualms in the other hieararchies of social life,...

Creation with discrimination is not a fact. It is only an opinion. With out any evidence, opinions will stay as opinions only; they can not become facts.

Cheers!

 

[Nara]

.... In these religions, mankind is broadly classfied as believers in their religions and non-believers--varNa and avarNa in the Hindu parlance. These divisions are not man-made, but divine--stated right in the Bible and Quran.

To argue that varna/avarna division is similar to believer/non-believer lacks any merit at all, to deserve a response. But sometimes we have to provide கண்ணாடி for கைப்புண்.

For starters, the varna system hierarchically categorizes, by divine ordinance, everyone -- believers and non-believers alike. Second, Christianity and Islam, vile in their own ways, allows non-believers to become believers. Mobility of any kind is prohibited by divine law among varna/caste.

It is totally and unequivocally silly to argue these are similar.

Was there any time in the history of any country--including India--when there were no religions priests, rulers, businessmen, servants and slaves? Don't they exist, precisely in these forms of five classes, in the modern society?

If you go back to the hunter/gatherers times there were no such groups anywhere. We can always add or take away classifications to fit our own favorite theories. If Lord Krishna had created five varnas and avarna arose afterward, this man will argue there have always been six classes everywhere, priests, rulers, soldiers, businessmen, servants and slaves. You want seven, how about priests, rulers, soldiers, teachers, businessmen, servants and slaves. You want eight, here we go, priests, rulers, soldiers, teachers, businessmen, artisans, servants and slaves. You come with the number and I will provide the names for the groups.

But, what this man conveniently ignores is the central issue in all this. Societies having many groups of people is not the issue, the impermeable nature of these divisions for eternity is the issue.

This is the central issue and I know the caste apologists will never address it.

...To give just one example, what about the provisions and practises of Racial profiling I spoke about in my post no.21? Are they not observed 'with passion' and 'justifications'?

No! This man does not know what he is talking about.

Take the case of Arizona where the Republicans have passed a law that has been widely viewed as racial-profiling law. It has come under severe criticism from everywhere, including Arizona. Some Arizona Democrats have called for economic boycott of their own state.

Are there any racists in USA like the castiests who endlessly argue for caste, of course there are. But do they enjoy any respectability, of course not. Justifying casteism by citing racism is pathetic.

... Can our friend say that these groups below don't maintain their identities 'through strict sub-group endogamy'?

So, this man's argument is, the great Sanatana Dharmam is no different from the different denominations of Christianity and Islam. Nice!

In all of these cases, one can move from one group to another and they will be welcome with open arms. There was a case sometime back of one Dr. Meena, a Kerala Brahmin lady, who, in her infinite stupidity, converted to Islam. She is feted by all Muslims world over.

Now, just think about the reverse, can a Muslim convert become a Brahmin? The question is so ridiculous to even have any meaning.

There was a post here in this very forum about a Joseph Iyengar a couple of months back. Will he ever be accepted as a Brahmin for all his knowledge about SV? The answer is a big "N" "O".

peace ...

 

[saidevo]

namaste shrI Raghy.

Now that's some good discussion: I can only answer your points to the extent of my knowledge, impression and opinion.

Let us take my statement in post no.160 (emphasis added):
The plain fact is that all men are not treated equal because all men are not created equal.

I made this statement as it occurred to me, qualifying it with 'the plain fact' instead of 'in my opinion' as you say. In the area of Banking, convention often becomes a law. It is the same with peoples' languages--slangs eventually find their way into the dictionary. Similarly, the law of karma is a belief, not just the belief of the Hindu people, but one that has been given as a scriptural injunction, as the backbone of Hinduism. Thus, when the law of karma has been in the Hindu consciousness from time immemorial, whether you would subscribe to it or not, it becomes more than a conventional belief, and so the effects played out by the law are plain facts. It is in this background that I see the inequivality among people as the plain facts of the effects and interaction of their karma phala.

So, Ishvara the Creator has nothing to do with the inequality among people. I believe shrI KRShNa when he says that he created the chaturvarNa based on the guna-karma of the jIvas. Ishvara is only a phala-dAtA--dispenser of the karmic fruits, but he does give his grace and the strength to withstand the karmic effects. Thus, IMHO, karma-phala is not the 'common reason' as you say, but the most reasonably common approach to a tough question of spirituality. It is not without reason that our PurANas and ItihAsas trace the life of many of its characters through their past lives.


You said in your post 160:
So, the people who did the bad karma reincarnated in lower varnas. In my opinion, there are fundemental flaws in this whole thing. If brahmins were such 'punya Atmans' how come they did not continue to be a punya Atman and treated all the varnas equally?
=====

This is a good question that I may not be able to answer to your conviction. Humans always have their saMkalpa--free will, with which they make or mar their spiritual advancement, given a good or bad start in a varNa. A person born in the brAhmaNa varNa is due to his puNya karmas of past lives certainly, but if he does not live as dictated by his svadharma, he is most likely be born in a different varNa in the next birth, as our AchAryas reiterate.

Certainly, in the past, brahmins did not treat the people of other varNas 'equally', and this was mostly for reasons of AchAram-maDI--ceremonial purity. What about the people of the KShatriya and Vysya varNa--did they treat the people of the ShUdra varNa equally?

Did any great king in our hoary history dine with all his servants in the palace? Did any wealthy merchant do it with his servants? Why aren't we talking about them, and only harp on the brahmins who did it for their ceremonial purity? So, the question of 'treating as equal', between the people of varNas and castes is only a rhetorical one that the politicians increasingly love to preach but deliberately fail to practise.

If you don't believe in ceremonial or spiritual purity, you may not agree with what I say. The brahmins in the past were far purer--ceremonially, mentally and spiritually--than we are today. The clairvoyant investigations of Bhishop CW Leadbeater and Annie Besant in Theosophy, reinforce the concept of spiritual purity of the human bodies: Leadbeater says that the dirt in the fingernails is enough to create a cesspool of impurity in the astral body and the surrounding astral world! It's much worse with impure thoughts. The impurity in the astral and mental bodies and planes is decided by the grossness and vibration of their corresponding matter.


You said further:
Secondly, how did the creater discriminate foreigner creations? They were all treated equally as 'mlechaas', just one classificvation across the board. Does it mean all the foreigners were absolutely equal in their karmas?
=====

I really have no answer to this question, except my own impression about it. The foreigners were classfied under the one heading 'mlechAs' because this classification was below the varNa of ShUdras, although they weren't all equal among themselves.

Whether we admit it, believe it or not, our BhAratam has been through eons in time, the puNya-bhUmi which was most suitable for jIvas with related karma balances to be born here in one of the four varNas. JIvas that were born in the foreign soil were/are subjected to the hostilities of land and climate, and hence their spiritual levels are different and spiritual progress is slower, conditioned by their own religious faiths.

You said:
Creation with discrimination is not a fact. It is only an opinion. With out any evidence, opinions will stay as opinions only; they can not become facts.
=====

Creation or rather acquirement by the jIvas, of human bodies and life circumstances that are discriminative is a fact--not just my opinion--and will stay as a fact, specially among the followers of Hinduism.

 

[nachi naga]

Take the case of Arizona where the Republicans have passed a law that has been widely viewed as racial-profiling law. It has come under severe criticism from everywhere, including Arizona. Some Arizona Democrats have called for economic boycott of their own state.

its too good to be true.latinos came illegally when usa has a system of legal immigration.its another matter that immigration legal,i one of the thumbsore of american society,in fact a stigma on its glorious culture.legal immigration is tortoise dept.slow and steady....

Are there any racists in USA like the castiests who endlessly argue for caste, of course there are. But do they enjoy any respectability, of course not. Justifying casteism by citing racism is pathetic.

Rascism does exist in usa.casteism does exist in india.so,whats the hullabaloo here.in fact,we dont know,how you have the gumption to write this nonsense and say we are pathetic to cite it as an example?i think a doctor of psychiatric shud start posting here,with such bizarre common sense or wait is it,bizarre un-common non-sense?its only after 250 years usa has a bi-racial president,compare this with india.A hindu majority country,today India boasts of Sikh Prime minister, as per his religion has no castes,a president who is a woman of exemplar character, a hindu.A sikh prime minister has the backing of the most powerful political party in India and she is a roman catholic naturalised Indian.Whereas even today,the congress,the house,the white house,is controlled by christians,that too white,and the minority is barely surviving the competetion.

Heck Indian Americans,being one of the most prolific contributors to american economy,is a speck amongst specks of minorities in usa.With such dismal track records,i wonder the state of students,under your guidance,or you seem to be enjoying yourself by giving vent to emotions,like a therapy.there is no logic in your alleged accusations of indians,about caste being prominent.

ya,its a lot simpler to administer and control masses,when the language spoken is english only,secondly the religion practiced is christanity only.any idiot can control a country of that nature,despite having such advantage ,christians just dominate the world,be it politics education science engineering war..etc.mostly its all old civilisations,with heritage and culture,which they try to preserve.americans are building culture and heritage albeit from europeans,asians,etc.

so,its not fair,what you write prof.you seem to have a bee in your bonnet,stinging.

saidevo is very nicely arguing,i must say,old testament has even more verses,where incest is a ok thing.in fact adam and eve fornicated and subsequently their children fornicated amounting to incest.i mean what nuts would believe such sordid behaviour?

joseph iyengar,is a mix of christian and hindu values.Sri Vaishanavas are proud to have him,explain such religious tenets skillfully.Instead of appreciating this man,throwing mud by saying SV will not accept is ridiculous,even the satokopans will love him alongwith other jeers.iskcon is filled with cauc-asian acharya lineage.so many hindu vaishnavas frequent and get anandam of lord krishna bhakthi,i mean hare krisha movement just cracked every edifice of orthodoxy.

 

[anandb]

I think this is how I see it. The present day caste factor has degenerated to such an extent that it probably needs to be abolished and I think the degeneration has more to do with declining moral standards in every aspect of living than to blame the original intent of the varna system. I don't think anywhere in ancient history there are evidences of these violent caste wars as you find now, proof enough, that our society existed peacefully those times in-spite of the varna system.

If a poor dalit is killed or raped by a wealthy caste Hindu, it is immediately blamed on the Hindu caste system. No one bothers to think whether there is anything prescribed in the scriptures or the varna system which gives liberty for one to kill another. I think the problem runs deeper than that. In India, the moneyed class has become so morally corrupt that they think they can get away with anything. So while a poor dalit may get killed by a rich upper caste Hindu the opposite may also be true. It is probably more to do with the rich-poor divide where the person with the money and power can get anything done in India irrespective of the caste he belongs to.

I think the greatness of Hinduism lies in the fact that it can admire a Joseph Iyengar for his grasp of Hinduism without attempting to convert or induce him to become a Hindu. We should actually be proud of this fact than being ashamed. The same goes for some stalwarts like M.M. Ismail and APJ whose thoughts on Hinduism were revered but who remained as Muslims throughout. Why the heck should one convert? If one feels so insecure in the religion he had been born and brought up in what is the guarantee that the new religion is going to offer any solace? In the Gulf, if a convicted kafir criminal mugs up the Quran and spits it back, his sentence will be reduced. Even better, if he converts into Islam he could be pardoned and taken back into society even if he is a murderer. Is this the way of making one believe in God? It is disgusting. I am proud that these kind of tactics are absent in our religion.

 

[anandb]

namaste shrI Raghy.

Now that's some good discussion: I can only answer your points to the extent of my knowledge, impression and opinion.

Let us take my statement in post no.160 (emphasis added):
The plain fact is that all men are not treated equal because all men are not created equal.

I made this statement as it occurred to me, qualifying it with 'the plain fact' instead of 'in my opinion' as you say. In the area of Banking, convention often becomes a law. It is the same with peoples' languages--slangs eventually find their way into the dictionary. Similarly, the law of karma is a belief, not just the belief of the Hindu people, but one that has been given as a scriptural injunction, as the backbone of Hinduism. Thus, when the law of karma has been in the Hindu consciousness from time immemorial, whether you would subscribe to it or not, it becomes more than a conventional belief, and so the effects played out by the law are plain facts. It is in this background that I see the inequivality among people as the plain facts of the effects and interaction of their karma phala.

So, Ishvara the Creator has nothing to do with the inequality among people. I believe shrI KRShNa when he says that he created the chaturvarNa based on the guna-karma of the jIvas. Ishvara is only a phala-dAtA--dispenser of the karmic fruits, but he does give his grace and the strength to withstand the karmic effects. Thus, IMHO, karma-phala is not the 'common reason' as you say, but the most reasonably common approach to a tough question of spirituality. It is not without reason that our PurANas and ItihAsas trace the life of many of its characters through their past lives.


You said in your post 160:
So, the people who did the bad karma reincarnated in lower varnas. In my opinion, there are fundemental flaws in this whole thing. If brahmins were such 'punya Atmans' how come they did not continue to be a punya Atman and treated all the varnas equally?
=====

This is a good question that I may not be able to answer to your conviction. Humans always have their saMkalpa--free will, with which they make or mar their spiritual advancement, given a good or bad start in a varNa. A person born in the brAhmaNa varNa is due to his puNya karmas of past lives certainly, but if he does not live as dictated by his svadharma, he is most likely be born in a different varNa in the next birth, as our AchAryas reiterate.

Certainly, in the past, brahmins did not treat the people of other varNas 'equally', and this was mostly for reasons of AchAram-maDI--ceremonial purity. What about the people of the KShatriya and Vysya varNa--did they treat the people of the ShUdra varNa equally?

Did any great king in our hoary history dine with all his servants in the palace? Did any wealthy merchant do it with his servants? Why aren't we talking about them, and only harp on the brahmins who did it for their ceremonial purity? So, the question of 'treating as equal', between the people of varNas and castes is only a rhetorical one that the politicians increasingly love to preach but deliberately fail to practise.

If you don't believe in ceremonial or spiritual purity, you may not agree with what I say. The brahmins in the past were far purer--ceremonially, mentally and spiritually--than we are today. The clairvoyant investigations of Bhishop CW Leadbeater and Annie Besant in Theosophy, reinforce the concept of spiritual purity of the human bodies: Leadbeater says that the dirt in the fingernails is enough to create a cesspool of impurity in the astral body and the surrounding astral world! It's much worse with impure thoughts. The impurity in the astral and mental bodies and planes is decided by the grossness and vibration of their corresponding matter.


You said further:
Secondly, how did the creater discriminate foreigner creations? They were all treated equally as 'mlechaas', just one classificvation across the board. Does it mean all the foreigners were absolutely equal in their karmas?
=====

I really have no answer to this question, except my own impression about it. The foreigners were classfied under the one heading 'mlechAs' because this classification was below the varNa of ShUdras, although they weren't all equal among themselves.

Whether we admit it, believe it or not, our BhAratam has been through eons in time, the puNya-bhUmi which was most suitable for jIvas with related karma balances to be born here in one of the four varNas. JIvas that were born in the foreign soil were/are subjected to the hostilities of land and climate, and hence their spiritual levels are different and spiritual progress is slower, conditioned by their own religious faiths.

You said:
Creation with discrimination is not a fact. It is only an opinion. With out any evidence, opinions will stay as opinions only; they can not become facts.
=====

Creation or rather acquirement by the jIvas, of human bodies and life circumstances that are discriminative is a fact--not just my opinion--and will stay as a fact, specially among the followers of Hinduism.

Brilliantly said, Shri. Saidevo. Just like to add one more thing. There is this huge misconception that while the brahmins were enjoying a very plush life due to their intellectual superiority the Shudras were slogging it out like some dirty toilet cleaners. To some extent this may be true when Brahmins of the Mughal and British era started craving for creature comforts (still a very small % compared to the brahmins of today) but when we talk about the Vedic brahmanas who used to follow all their samskaras to the dot life was a huge battle for them. Moreover even the Kshatriyas and the Vaishiyas were much learned in the Shastras just like brahmins. Only the Shudras were exempted from learning the Shastras as the social duties he was performing were enough to give him good karma. Mistakenly this is called as discrimination. Our Acharya actually calls the Shudras as privileged because the nature of their service provided them natural humility which was a very important attribute for god realisation. The other three varnas faced the danger of acquiring an ego due to the nature of the duties they performed. Moreover the Shudras who could not earn money due to their occupation was required to be taken care of by the state.

Where the hell is discrimination here? Even the brahmana was not allowed to do the occupation of another varna. Can he then complain of discrimination? What if a brahmana wanted to forsake his occupation and wanted to do the work of Shudra because the state was taking care of him as opposed to the brahmin who had to beg for food. There was an in-built equality in the system and that is why one does not find the ugly caste wars of today happening that time.

You made an excellent point about "free will" which is an integral part of karma. So one can be born as a Shudra into a poor family with one eye missing and looking pitch black and a host of other inequities due to his prarbtha karma but then god has given him the "Free will" to work out his past and present karma. So it really does not matter how one is born because man has the freedom to rise above everything. So while a brahmana can become a dur-brahmana by his actions a meleccha or a Shudra can become a brahmana by qualities. Isn't this what the Upanishads state -

‘You are what your deepest desire is.
As you desire, so is your intention.
As your intention, so is your will.
As is your will so is your deed.
As is your deed, so is your destiny.’

 

[Nara]

...
I think the greatness of Hinduism lies in the fact that it can admire a Joseph Iyengar for his grasp of Hinduism without attempting to convert or induce him to become a Hindu. We should actually be proud of this fact than being ashamed.

Anand, suppose that there is a George Iyer, born to Chrisitan parents, who is a stalwart proponent of Advaitam and a superior Bhaktha of Kamakshi. He lives a pure life true to the dictum ahimsha pradamam pushpam. And further suppose he wants to be a Brahmin, no attempt to convert him by anyone. Then, would he be accepted as a Brahmin?

Cheers!

 

[nachi naga]

definition of a brahmin,is a person who knows brahman,and is able to preach or teach or live the precepts of religious life.so,a number of rules and regualtions has been prescribed to acheive such a saathvikam gunam.such a realised athma,lives a life,with clarity of thinking and purpose,elevating to the one goal of moksham.by birth some areas accept this,thereby the system of gothras of various rishis,propagated the progenies.by and large,brahmins were patronised by other three personality class of people,and it worked in tandem,as how it even works today.owing to influence of islam rule and owing to rule of christians, and today more than religious dogmas,science is marching ahead and forgin an unity of sorts amongst humanity and living beings,without being irreligious.so,all izzzzz wellllllllllllll !!

 

[saidevo]

namaste shrI Nachi Naga.

You made some very good points in your post no.163:

You said:
"Rascism does exist in usa.casteism does exist in india.so,whats the hullabaloo here.in fact,we dont know,how you have the gumption to write this nonsense and say we are pathetic to cite it as an example?"
=====

That's it. Racism, religious intolerance and monopoly, modern political/corporate/social life, varNa and caste--it's all the same: discrimination and oppression of humans in one way or another. Only the name differs.

This discrimination cannot be wished away, but the oppression must be genuinely and completely rooted out, by all the will and efforts it takes to do it.

The difference between our shAstras vis-a-vis the Abrahamic religious scriptures and the rules and regulations of modern life is this: our varNa and caste system has discrimination, but our texts exhort us towards mutual respect and peaceful co-existence, which were the hallmarks of our tradition and culture from the Vedic times.

Another point is that money and power are only physical means to a spiritual end in our Hindu Dharma: It was dharma-artha-kAma-mokSha. So long as it was so, there was no oppression in the Hindu society. In the cultures of the Abrahamic religions and modern political/corporate/social life, money and power are the means as well as the end, and spirituality is thrown into the gutters they create, which is why the discrimination and critical oppression as it exists in the human society today.

You said:
ya,its a lot simpler to administer and control masses,when the language spoken is english only,secondly the religion practiced is christanity only.any idiot can control a country of that nature,despite having such advantage ,christians just dominate the world,be it politics education science engineering war..etc.mostly its all old civilisations,with heritage and culture,which they try to preserve.americans are building culture and heritage albeit from europeans,asians,etc.
=====

Hinduism has preserved the beliefs and handicrafts of our tribes and aboriginals which are sold in the state handicraft centres. What has the USA and Christianity done for their aborginals? Are there many non-Christian black people and native Americans in the US who are allowed to still practise their pagan faiths?

 

[Nara]

....That's it. Racism, religious intolerance and monopoly, modern political/corporate/social life, varNa and caste--it's all the same: discrimination and oppression of humans in one way or another. Only the name differs.

If this is how far Saidevo can come, it will have to do. In the matter of varna/caste being "discrimination and oppression of humans" just like racism, I agree with Saidevo. Let us savor this moment of rare agreement a little bit.

Cheers!

 

[kunjuppu]

description of a fanatic

i came across this in a book.. thought i will share it here:

the fanatic in his deep desire for goodness, is in constant fear of evil. he begins to see evil all around him. in what we think of as harmless decadence, the fanatic sees the insidious encroachment of evil. he begins to worry about everybody who is not pursuing good with the same zeal as himself. after a while he tires of the pathetic weakness of others andhis perception shifts. he no longer sees them as misguided fools, but rather as ministers of the devil, which is when he starts to hate them.from that moment he becomes a dangerous person, because then he is someone receptive to extreme ideas....

p 233, the hidden assassins by robert wilson

how many of us here can fall under this description, i don't know. but sometimes when i see the dislikes thrown about, i perhaps am bound to wonder ?

 

[saidevo]

namaste Anand.

You have rightly observed (post no.164) that the decline in moral standards and the greed for money and power are responsible for the degeneration of the Hindu institution of varNa and caste. Certainly oppressive discrimination was not the original intent of the varNa system.

And the decline in moral standards and the greed for money and power are the legacy of the Muslim invasion and the Colonnial rule in India, coupled with the inhuman conversion efforts of the Christianity which in turn controls the rulers.

You said in post no.165:
Only the Shudras were exempted from learning the Shastras as the social duties he was performing were enough to give him good karma. Mistakenly this is called as discrimination. Our Acharya actually calls the Shudras as privileged because the nature of their service provided them natural humility which was a very important attribute for god realisation.
=====

The ShUdras were exempted from only studying and chanting the Vedas, as it required strict niyamas and proficiency in Sanskrit which they could not afford in their social life. As our AchArya KAnchi MahA SvAmigaL reiterates in his lectures, only the brAhmaNas were given tough spiritual responsibilities and stringent punishments where they abandoned them; on top of these, they were ordained to lead a simple life of a sannyAsin, obtaining the means to their next meal only by charity. They were actually nourished by the KShatriays and Vyshyas.

As I said earlier, the chaturvarNa system cannot be faulted within the scope of Hindu Dharma, which is why those who criticize it seek to be under the cover of rationalism and atheism.

 

[nachi naga]

namaste shrI Nachi Naga.

You made some very good points in your post no.163:

You said:
"Rascism does exist in usa.casteism does exist in india.so,whats the hullabaloo here.in fact,we dont know,how you have the gumption to write this nonsense and say we are pathetic to cite it as an example?"
=====

That's it. Racism, religious intolerance and monopoly, modern political/corporate/social life, varNa and caste--it's all the same: discrimination and oppression of humans in one way or another. Only the name differs.

This discrimination cannot be wished away, but the oppression must be genuinely and completely rooted out, by all the will and efforts it takes to do it.

The difference between our shAstras vis-a-vis the Abrahamic religious scriptures and the rules and regulations of modern life is this: our varNa and caste system has discrimination, but our texts exhort us towards mutual respect and peaceful co-existence, which were the hallmarks of our tradition and culture from the Vedic times.

Another point is that money and power are only physical means to a spiritual end in our Hindu Dharma: It was dharma-artha-kAma-mokSha. So long as it was so, there was no oppression in the Hindu society. In the cultures of the Abrahamic religions and modern political/corporate/social life, money and power are the means as well as the end, and spirituality is thrown into the gutters they create, which is why the discrimination and critical oppression as it exists in the human society today.

You said:
ya,its a lot simpler to administer and control masses,when the language spoken is english only,secondly the religion practiced is christanity only.any idiot can control a country of that nature,despite having such advantage ,christians just dominate the world,be it politics education science engineering war..etc.mostly its all old civilisations,with heritage and culture,which they try to preserve.americans are building culture and heritage albeit from europeans,asians,etc.
=====

Hinduism has preserved the beliefs and handicrafts of our tribes and aboriginals which are sold in the state handicraft centres. What has the USA and Christianity done for their aborginals? Are there many non-Christian black people and native Americans in the US who are allowed to still practise their pagan faiths?

saidevo

it's human gunam which exists thru the spectrum of life.if no discrimination exists within us,why would we all,be having borders and nationalities and countries.it's a sense of security which bother's us,and our natural resources which we want to optimise at the expense of other's.the day humanity realises earth is one,the human race is one,and we share with an equitable distribution of resources,golden period has dawned.

 

[nachi naga]

saidevo

Hinduism has preserved the beliefs and handicrafts of our tribes and aboriginals which are sold in the state handicraft centres. What has the USA and Christianity done for their aborginals? Are there many non-Christian black people and native Americans in the US who are allowed to still practise their pagan faiths?

USA Christians do allow Hinduism to be practiced,the standing testimony are the various temples,which flourish all over the 50 states.This is happening becoz of hindus who migrated 40 years back and won the love,admiration of local populace and especially political leaders of USA,who allowed such a thing to happen.By and large it's a protestant wing of christanity,even though christ would be chaffing at the various split subsidiaries of his teachings,into diff christian wings.Native American art handicrafts are preserved to some extent i think,as lot's of material in web can be browsed.In fact Las Vegas Casinos have been known to be monopolised by native american indians.It's a dwindled population,excepts in pockets of arizona and similiar such states.But for all practical purposes,the race of the ancient manitou is dead.

 

[kunjuppu]

namaste Anand.

...
And the decline in moral standards and the greed for money and power are the legacy of the Muslim invasion and the Colonnial rule in India, coupled with the inhuman conversion efforts of the Christianity which in turn controls the rulers.

.

????

are we now blaming the muslims and the christians for our predicament?

have we considered our population numbers? ie a small pie divided with ever increasing numbers?

 

[saidevo]

NAchi NAga,

Again an amazingly good point! If it is not in the three guNas and carried over karma that comprise a human, why should there be discrimination even to the nationalities? I am reminded of the following lines I read long back in a short story:

கடவுள் ஒருவனே என்று கரடியாகக் கத்தும் மதங்கள்
மனிதன் ஒருவனே என்று ஏன் போதிக்கத் தவறிவிட்டன?

தாடி வெச்சா முஸ்லிம், தலப்பா கட்டினா சீக்கியன்,
பட்டையடிச்சா சைவம், நாமம் போட்டா வைஷ்ணவம்,
சிலுவை போட்டா கிறிஸ்துவன்,
அவுத்துப்போட்டா எல்லாரும் மனுஷன்தானய்யா!

kaDavuL oruvanE enRu karaDiyAkak kaththum matha~ggaL
manithan oruvanE enRu En bOdhikkath thavaRiviTTana?

dhADi vechchA muSlim, thalappA kaTTinA sIkkiyan,
paTTaiyaDichchA saivam, ~nAmam pOTTA vaishNavam,
siluvai pOTTA kiRiSthuvan,
avuththuppOTTA ellArum manuShanthAnayyA!