Ramayana is Real, Say Experts

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Anjaneya is being worshipped today also. Without Anjaneya, no Ramayanam at all.

 

[CHANDRU1849]

Ramayana is primarily talking about Pshatriyas i.e. ruling class, which may be true.

But the question is whether the reincarnation theory is true or false.

 

[vgane]

Besides the above following additional evidences about Ramayana

1.
Tapovan, Nasik

Image Source: RohitSajwan (via Wikimedia Commons)


A holy place mentioned in the Ramayana, Tapovan is blessed with the footprints of Rama, Laxman and Sita who stayed here during their exile. The fascinating story of Laxman cutting off Suparnakha’s nose and ears took place in this very jungle. Surrounded by lush greenery and silence, it is the perfect place to get in touch with your spiritual self.

2.

Kishkindha, Karnataka

Image Source: Indiancorrector (via Wikimedia Commons)
This is the meeting point for Rama and Sugriva, situated on the northern bank of the river Tungabhadra. Locals fondly call it Kishkindha. This ancient place has a number of temples dedicated to Lord Rama, and a cave which bears the marks of Sita’s ormanent which fell when she was abducted by Ravana.

http://www.askmeontravel.com/5-plac...ofy-you-must-visit&utm_term=indiatoday-dailyo

 

[sangom]

Instead of supplying evidences, some of which are marginal at best, is there/are there solid logical proof or evidences to nail the fact that Ramayana has to be a real happening and could not have been a story written by somebody who had some very basic general knowledge about the areas south of the Vindhyas and up to Srilanka?

By the time of Asoka, Srilanka was fairly well-known, was it not?

 

[auh]

Instead of supplying evidences, some of which are marginal at best, is there/are there solid logical proof or evidences to nail the fact that Ramayana has to be a real happening and could not have been a story written by somebody who had some very basic general knowledge about the areas south of the Vindhyas and up to Srilanka?

By the time of Asoka, Srilanka was fairly well-known, was it not?

but of course sir, surely we have the portrait of hanuman, the vanara who set ablaze lankapuri... Since then Lanka has, till now, never regained its lost glory, except perhaps when they won the icc ... What more proof do we require?!

 

[yesmohan]

but of course sir, surely we have the portrait of hanuman, the vanara who set ablaze lankapuri... Since then Lanka has, till now, never regained its lost glory, except perhaps when they won the icc ... What more proof do we require?!

Portrait of Hanuman is A DOCUMENTARY EVIDENCE. Vanaraas are living evidence. Lord Rama in portrait winks his eyes on Bakthaas. This is an eyewitness. What else needed.

More evidences under research methodologies like scientific evidence, historical evidence documented, Any other counter references in the history of neighbouring countries - documented if any, any concrete evidences about the contemporaries of that time etc.etc. are required for awarding PhD only.. not for religious belief.

 

[tks]

Due to influence of the west and their religious practices there is a renewed interest in doing research about historical accuracy of our Itihasas.
The only thing that one needs to know from great epics like Ramayana and Mahabharatha is that they are based on some historical events. But history itself has no relevance to the underlying teaching that these great epics communicate.

Even if the real Rama is very different from what is portrayed and understood by common people, the current image of Sri Rama as an Avatara and personification of Dharma is far more valuable to human race.

The history centric focus in order to validate Ramayana is for people who cannot appreciate this great epic.

Let me quote work of Rajiv Malhotra

"Malhotra has developed a novel framework that classifies religions according to their dependence on history. For followers of history-centric (Abrahamic) religions, truth-claims based on history are more significant than the scriptural message itself. History-centric dogma such as original sin and resurrection become critical beliefs and no compromise can be made on their acceptance. This explains the centrality of Nicene creed to all major Christian denominations. Followers of history-centric religions believe that the God revealed His message through a special prophet and that the message is secured in scriptures. This special access to God is available only to these intermediaries or prophets and not to any other human beings.Dharma traditions do not hold history central to their faith. Gautama Buddha emphasized that his enlightenment was merely a discovery of a reality that is always there. He was not bringing any new covenants from any God. The history of the Buddha is not necessary for Buddhist principles to work. In fact, Buddha stated that he was neither the first nor the last person to have achieved the state of enlightenment. He also asserted that he was not God nor sent by any God as a prophet, and whatever he discovered was available to every human to discover for himself."



Similarly, the value of Ramayana to human beings lies in understanding the principle of Dharma.
Even if someone were to prove tomorrow that Ramayana was a hoax, it will not undermine the value of this great epic to the human kind.

I think the fashion of aping the west has come to research of religious scriptures as well!

 

[yesmohan]

Due to influence of the west and their religious practices there is a renewed interest in doing research about historical accuracy of our Itihasas.
The only thing that one needs to know from great epics like Ramayana and Mahabharatha is that they are based on some historical events. But history itself has no relevance to the underlying teaching that these great epics communicate.


Even if the real Rama is very different from what is portrayed and understood by common people, the current image of Sri Rama as an Avatara and personification of Dharma is far more valuable to human race.

The history centric focus in order to validate Ramayana is for people who cannot appreciate this great epic.

Let me quote work of Rajiv Malhotra

"Malhotra has developed a novel framework that classifies religions according to their dependence on history. For followers of history-centric (Abrahamic) religions, truth-claims based on history are more significant than the scriptural message itself. History-centric dogma such as original sin and resurrection become critical beliefs and no compromise can be made on their acceptance. This explains the centrality of Nicene creed to all major Christian denominations. Followers of history-centric religions believe that the God revealed His message through a special prophet and that the message is secured in scriptures. This special access to God is available only to these intermediaries or prophets and not to any other human beings.Dharma traditions do not hold history central to their faith. Gautama Buddha emphasized that his enlightenment was merely a discovery of a reality that is always there. He was not bringing any new covenants from any God. The history of the Buddha is not necessary for Buddhist principles to work. In fact, Buddha stated that he was neither the first nor the last person to have achieved the state of enlightenment. He also asserted that he was not God nor sent by any God as a prophet, and whatever he discovered was available to every human to discover for himself."



Similarly, the value of Ramayana to human beings lies in understanding the principle of Dharma.
Even if someone were to prove tomorrow that Ramayana was a hoax, it will not undermine the value of this great epic to the human kind.

I think the fashion of aping the west has come to research of religious scriptures as well!

I totally agree with you sir. The morals revealed are great; nobody can deny it.

 

[auh]

Due to influence of the west and their religious practices there is a renewed interest in doing research about historical accuracy of our Itihasas.
The only thing that one needs to know from great epics like Ramayana and Mahabharatha is that they are based on some historical events. But history itself has no relevance to the underlying teaching that these great epics communicate.

Even if the real Rama is very different from what is portrayed and understood by common people, the current image of Sri Rama as an Avatara and personification of Dharma is far more valuable to human race.

The history centric focus in order to validate Ramayana is for people who cannot appreciate this great epic.

Let me quote work of Rajiv Malhotra

"Malhotra has developed a novel framework that classifies religions according to their dependence on history. For followers of history-centric (Abrahamic) religions, truth-claims based on history are more significant than the scriptural message itself. History-centric dogma such as original sin and resurrection become critical beliefs and no compromise can be made on their acceptance. This explains the centrality of Nicene creed to all major Christian denominations. Followers of history-centric religions believe that the God revealed His message through a special prophet and that the message is secured in scriptures. This special access to God is available only to these intermediaries or prophets and not to any other human beings.Dharma traditions do not hold history central to their faith. Gautama Buddha emphasized that his enlightenment was merely a discovery of a reality that is always there. He was not bringing any new covenants from any God. The history of the Buddha is not necessary for Buddhist principles to work. In fact, Buddha stated that he was neither the first nor the last person to have achieved the state of enlightenment. He also asserted that he was not God nor sent by any God as a prophet, and whatever he discovered was available to every human to discover for himself."



Similarly, the value of Ramayana to human beings lies in understanding the principle of Dharma.
Even if someone were to prove tomorrow that Ramayana was a hoax, it will not undermine the value of this great epic to the human kind.

I think the fashion of aping the west has come to research of religious scriptures as well!

If one were to give a metaphor or a simile to substantiate a point, and if the other party were to hold on the metaphor fast (as if it were real) instead of understanding the "point", and wallow in the mis-understanding, would it not lead to a flawed understanding? How can a person, who reaches the level of a fanatic with his obsession on the object, ever understand the subject?

I think it is time we shake ourselves off the blind deification and come to our senses.

 

[sangom]

If one were to give a metaphor or a simile to substantiate a point, and if the other party were to hold on the metaphor fast (as if it were real) instead of understanding the "point", and wallow in the mis-understanding, would it not lead to a flawed understanding? How can a person, who reaches the level of a fanatic with his obsession on the object, ever understand the subject?

I think it is time we shake ourselves off the blind deification and come to our senses.

I fully concur with the above view. Puranas & ithihasas have kept us as slaves for millennia and almost any foreigner - portuguese, french, dutch, turks, mongols, mughals - came, conquered and looted this land. Our great itihasas and puranas had made us useless slaves!

Should we not realize this simple fact at least so late?

 

[tks]

If one were to give a metaphor or a simile to substantiate a point, and if the other party were to hold on the metaphor fast (as if it were real) instead of understanding the "point", and wallow in the mis-understanding, would it not lead to a flawed understanding? How can a person, who reaches the level of a fanatic with his obsession on the object, ever understand the subject?

I think it is time we shake ourselves off the blind deification and come to our senses.

I am not sure who is misinterpreting a metaphor as real and holding onto them while forgetting the 'point' !
I tried to scan the thread quickly to see if I missed anything.

Now deification / personification of an ideal is fine in my view. It cannot cause damage to anyone or any society. But deification of intermediary human being who talked to 'God' on behalf of others to save them is harmful.

Our forefathers never kept focus on history for conveying timeless truths. History focus is a western thing in such matters .
Our itihasas are often misunderstood for their value leading to either skepticism by a few or delusional worship by many.

What we need to shake off include focus on history of Itihasas, delusional bhakthi and ignorant skepticism.

 

[tks]

I fully concur with the above view. Puranas & ithihasas have kept us as slaves for millennia and almost any foreigner - portuguese, french, dutch, turks, mongols, mughals - came, conquered and looted this land. Our great itihasas and puranas had made us useless slaves!

Should we not realize this simple fact at least so late?

Misinterpretation and misunderstanding of Itihasas have been the source of our problems.

Following Dharma is not for weaklings. I have no idea where this idea came into Hindu psyche that following Dharma in one's life means being a poor fool to be used as slaves and doormats by others. Even the word Ahimsa is often misunderstood.

In fact, the two itihasas are based on story of major wars and not about major peace.

If a society had very good & courageous army that can protect against invaders, only then rest of the society can focus on advancing knowledge, trade, economy, infrastructure etc.


Our Hindu society has been Tamasic for most part arising out of ignorant people in positions of leadership. There are many that simply have no clue what is taught in our scriptures and are too quick to embrace western world probably for all the wrong things. Focus on history is one such thing.

This has led to

• following a delusional Bhakti cult,
• worshipping self appointed godmen,
• looking for easy way out in everything,
• being spineless in facing adversity, and
• embracing corruption as a way of life.
• aping the west for all the adharmic things and not for what has made them great in the 21st century

Our Itihasas do not communicate any of the above messages.

 

[auh]

Shri tks,

I am not sure who is misinterpreting a metaphor as real and holding onto them while forgetting the 'point' !
I tried to scan the thread quickly to see if I missed anything.

perhaps, you missed this

...
Even if the real Rama is very different from what is portrayed and understood by common people, the current image of Sri Rama as an Avatara and personification of Dharma is far more valuable to human race.

Now deification / personification of an ideal is fine in my view. It cannot cause damage to anyone or any society. But deification of intermediary human being who talked to 'God' on behalf of others to save them is harmful.

I would seriously challenge the claim that deification does not cause damage. Deification degrades the intellect, and the mind regresses instead of progressing. It is stuck up with distorted facts about an individual and there is no scope for critical thinking or pushing beyond the persona of the deity. In time, the ideal vanishes and what is left is but a delusion.

Our forefathers never kept focus on history for conveying timeless truths. History focus is a western thing in such matters .
Our itihasas are often misunderstood for their value leading to either skepticism by a few or delusional worship by many.

If in these times itihasas are often misunderstood for the values they impart, then the correct way would be not to hang on to the itihasas for dear life but to separate the value from the allegory or metaphor and make things simpler.

What we need to shake off include focus on history of Itihasas, delusional bhakthi and ignorant skepticism.

In the same vein, we need also to,

1) avoid deification of characters, or of ideas,
2) avoid overzealousness on the story rather than the moral
3) stop being fanatics

btw, are we not skeptics because we are in a state of ignorance?

 

[tks]

Shri tks,perhaps, you missed this

A. I would seriously challenge the claim that deification does not cause damage. Deification degrades the intellect, and the mind regresses instead of progressing. It is stuck up with distorted facts about an individual and there is no scope for critical thinking or pushing beyond the persona of the deity. In time, the ideal vanishes and what is left is but a delusion.

B. If in these times itihasas are often misunderstood for the values they impart, then the correct way would be not to hang on to the itihasas for dear life but to separate the value from the allegory or metaphor and make things simpler.

In the same vein, we need also to,

1) avoid deification of characters, or of ideas,
2) avoid overzealousness on the story rather than the moral
3) stop being fanatics

C. btw, are we not skeptics because we are in a state of ignorance?

Sri auh

Nice to engage in this debate!

I just labelled your points to refer to it.

Point A) Ignorant deification degrades intellect! You have to show how deification of an ideal causes damage.

Let me use two examples to show how reverence and deification of an ideal is actually very healthy for a society.

1. I believe USA where I live has been and still is an engine for all kinds of innovation. People who have come from various countries have been extraordinarily creative. They may not have been so in their own country of birth. Almost anything that touches our lives has its origin in the innovation, invention and discovery that originated in USA. I believe a nation built out of rogues and discards had achieved this level of excellence largely due to the constitution document which is held with reverence here.

The freedom of speech and separation of church & state have played a significant role in unleashing creativity of its people.

By the way, the teachings embedded in our Upanishads and the value for knowledge and debates in ancient India did contribute to making us the world leader in uncovering universal truths.

The US constitution document is not perfect and may have issues but it is a direction for a more perfect union for this country. Hence holding such a document as ultimate and with reverence is fully warranted.

2. Ramayana and life of Rama as understood today by most people, even if it may or may not represent historical accuracy, is one that teaches the power of making and keeping commitments. Here a great King made a commitment to his 3rd wife in the danger of a battlefield. He could not bring himself to spin his way out of his commitment when the demand to satisfy his commitment meant sending his son at the time of coronation to forest for 14 years. There were no witnesses and he could easily interpret the commitment made in any way possible. He would rather die than go back on his word. His son, has no issue going to the forest just to make sure his father's word is intact.

Now imagine if people of India were to truly embrace the personification of Dharma portrayed by Sri Rama. The best Bhakti they can show is by making and keeping commitments. But in this west aping age with innovative corrupt culture, there is delusional Bhakti only causing enormous damage to each other in the society.

Even those reading books by Steven Covey, if not Ramayana, can understand the personal and societal power if one is able to make and keep commitments. Hindus in India will benefit if they embraced the values taught in Ramayana.

Deification and right interpretation of Sri Rama as personification of Dharma is extremely valuable to our society.

You have to show convincingly with examples how deification of an ideal can cause degradation!

3. Our teaching emphasizes understanding of Isvara but not on blind belief based followership though there are religions within Hinduism that emphasizes belief only. Even belief-only-religions need not cause any issues to humanity provided there are few teachers that can help interpret what is delusion and what is not.

Vedanta which focuses on knowledge, emphasizes what it means to be a true Bhakta and how to understand Isvara. You will not find anyone that is serious about understanding the nature of this universe and nature of oneself to be devoid of Bhakti towards Isvara. Sri Ramana Maharishi was a Bhakta. You only have to read his Upadesha Sahra or Ulladhu Narpadhu (உள்ளது நாற்பது) to understand what I mean.

This is not possible for those that are caught in intellectual gymnastics of the mind with limited information. One has to delve into the teaching to truly appreciate the teachings. Only then they can truly guide a common person without imposing all the teaching on them. We do not have such teachers in abundance.

B. There is no need for any additional allegory or Aesop's fables to teach anything to anyone. There is a problem of misinterpretation due to ignorant people in positions of leadership be it in religion or government. One cannot advocate throwing the baby and keeping the bath water.

It is one thing for a person to light a lamp for a deity to express his inner feelings towards Isvara he sees in that deity. It is another thing for a fool to organize a massive event to light 1 crore lamps. The later is ego driven stupidity while the former can help for one to be better conditioned to learn and think.

Proper interpretation of Ramayana and its teaching is more easily reachable to mass of people with right teachers.
The Bhakthi cult can only be dealt with by proper exposition of what Sri Krishna is said to have taught in B.Gita which is profound document about human beings.

These are treasures for humanity and can uplift any nation which means India (Hindus only) must embrace the teaching conveyed with investment in developing proper teachers.

 

[yesmohan]

Sariyaana pOtti. Excellent debate .I salute both Sri tks & Sri Auo

 

[auh]

Shri tks,

...

Point A) Ignorant deification degrades intellect! You have to show how deification of an ideal causes damage.

You could not have asked anything more easier; let me elaborate below:

Deification is different, very different from reverence. From merely respecting an individual for his qualities, which might be healthy, when we start to ascribe god-like status, the individual gains the axis of attention; values become secondary. The disadvantage in the latter is that the follower tends to believe that he/she can do away with wrongdoings by being in the deity's favour. As an example, a devotee may pray to Rama early morning and go on to establish an unfair trade practice (perhaps, in his shop). He does so because he feels that Rama is god and hence flawless, but we are mortals and hence fallible. This is a common occurence we see in our daily life - the vast majority belong to this category. The idea that a value is important, is lost out in the extravagant glorification of the individual and his background; as is happening with the story of the Ramayana. And with Rama.

It is the same with other religions too - Jesus, as a historical figure is debatable as there are various accounts of his life. Jesus rose to godhood to propagate an ideal; unfortunately as we know now, christians are more focussed about being a christian than about unconditional love. They are more obsessed with a place in heaven than making the world a better place for the less fortunate.

About muslims, the less said the better. The idea of a god has terrible and far reaching consequences.

From among all the religions, and the religious, imo, only those who have surpassed the idea of a personal godhead would be able to have a true "samadarshanam". And for that we have to let go of gods and their aura.

Let me use two examples to show how reverence and deification of an ideal is actually very healthy for a society.

1. I believe USA where I live has been and still is an engine for all kinds of innovation. People who have come from various countries have been extraordinarily creative. They may not have been so in their own country of birth. Almost anything that touches our lives has its origin in the innovation, invention and discovery that originated in USA. I believe a nation built out of rogues and discards had achieved this level of excellence largely due to the constitution document which is held with reverence here.

The freedom of speech and separation of church & state have played a significant role in unleashing creativity of its people.

By the way, the teachings embedded in our Upanishads and the value for knowledge and debates in ancient India did contribute to making us the world leader in uncovering universal truths.

The US constitution document is not perfect and may have issues but it is a direction for a more perfect union for this country. Hence holding such a document as ultimate and with reverence is fully warranted.

I believe that the example above is more fit to be used as a case for my argument than yours.

2. Ramayana and life of Rama as understood today by most people, even if it may or may not represent historical accuracy, is one that teaches the power of making and keeping commitments. Here a great King made a commitment to his 3rd wife in the danger of a battlefield. He could not bring himself to spin his way out of his commitment when the demand to satisfy his commitment meant sending his son at the time of coronation to forest for 14 years. There were no witnesses and he could easily interpret the commitment made in any way possible. He would rather die than go back on his word. His son, has no issue going to the forest just to make sure his father's word is intact.

Now imagine if people of India were to truly embrace the personification of Dharma portrayed by Sri Rama. The best Bhakti they can show is by making and keeping commitments. But in this west aping age with innovative corrupt culture, there is delusional Bhakti only causing enormous damage to each other in the society.

Even those reading books by Steven Covey, if not Ramayana, can understand the personal and societal power if one is able to make and keep commitments. Hindus in India will benefit if they embraced the values taught in Ramayana.

Deification and right interpretation of Sri Rama as personification of Dharma is extremely valuable to our society.

You have to show convincingly with examples how deification of an ideal can cause degradation!

Personification of an idea is dangerous. As an example, to say that "dharma" is important is ok provided we explain why; to say that Rama as a god, and he upheld dharma, and hence, dharma is important is mere foolishness. The moment one accepts Rama as god, dharma becomes secondary. This is how the mind works. How else, do you think, that this country of Ram-bhakts was subject to looting and marauding by outsiders; how can this country of Ram-bhakts become a cesspool of corruption and selfishness. It is because the "personification" stands, larger than life, between the devotee and "dharma".

Coming back to the story of Ramayana, you have said that it "teaches the power of making and keeping commitments". The story is full of lopsided decisions taken by an emotional prince just to create a huge drama. Imagine if we had a king and a prince like Dasaratha and Rama. The father, just to please his wife, would banish the prince and himself die, leaving the kingdom helpless and thoroughly exposed to invasions, revolts and riots.

Commitments are important only in so far they serve the best interests of all or the majority - that is dharma. Not unilateral decisions taken by a monarch based on harem talk. The action of Rama is a wrong instance of dharma, I would say.

Moreover the single effect of Dasaratha caused a separation between wife and husband (Rama-Sita, Lakshamana-Urmila), besides making widows of his numerous wives!

We have to understand that Dharma is more important than Rama, but to do that first one has to cross over Rama.

3. Our teaching emphasizes understanding of Isvara but not on blind belief based followership though there are religions within Hinduism that emphasizes belief only. Even belief-only-religions need not cause any issues to humanity provided there are few teachers that can help interpret what is delusion and what is not.

Vedanta which focuses on knowledge, emphasizes what it means to be a true Bhakta and how to understand Isvara. You will not find anyone that is serious about understanding the nature of this universe and nature of oneself to be devoid of Bhakti towards Isvara. Sri Ramana Maharishi was a Bhakta. You only have to read his Upadesha Sahra or Ulladhu Narpadhu (உள்ளது நாற்பது) to understand what I mean.

This is not possible for those that are caught in intellectual gymnastics of the mind with limited information. One has to delve into the teaching to truly appreciate the teachings. Only then they can truly guide a common person without imposing all the teaching on them. We do not have such teachers in abundance.

The above are pretty hard beliefs. And convincing as they may sound to you, contain no great secret. Perhaps if one were to diligently record all conversations that happen about god or isvara or brahman that happen in tamilbrahmins.com, then in another thousand years or so, if preserved, they might very well become another upanishad - tabra upanishad ! But this is besides the point we are discussing.

B. There is no need for any additional allegory or Aesop's fables to teach anything to anyone. There is a problem of misinterpretation due to ignorant people in positions of leadership be it in religion or government. One cannot advocate throwing the baby and keeping the bath water.

It is one thing for a person to light a lamp for a deity to express his inner feelings towards Isvara he sees in that deity. It is another thing for a fool to organize a massive event to light 1 crore lamps. The later is ego driven stupidity while the former can help for one to be better conditioned to learn and think.

Proper interpretation of Ramayana and its teaching is more easily reachable to mass of people with right teachers.
The Bhakthi cult can only be dealt with by proper exposition of what Sri Krishna is said to have taught in B.Gita which is profound document about human beings.

These are treasures for humanity and can uplift any nation which means India (Hindus only) must embrace the teaching conveyed with investment in developing proper teachers.

Why should anyone do anything to a deity, when he knows not of its existence? How does lighting a lamp help him ipso facto, keeping aside his cultivated conditioning of what it means to him?

Teachings about dharma are always important, but why deification? You have not convincingly provided proof that deification of an idea, as in Ramayana, would be more helpful, than merely propagating the idea itself?

The mess of religions are proof enough of god and various deifications; we only have to open our minds and look around. What more does one need?

 

[yesmohan]

As Ramayana teaches good morals /ethics, we can take it on the face value and follow in true sense / faith / Bakthi.

Without following the morals/ethics, why one would try to establish " Ramayana" is real or just a story?

Whether real or unreal, morals/ethics are value based and to be understood with the perspective.

 

[sangom]

As Ramayana teaches good morals /ethics, we can take it on the face value and follow in true sense / faith / Bakthi.

Without following the morals/ethics, why one would try to establish " Ramayana" is real or just a story?

Whether real or unreal, morals/ethics are value based and to be understood with the perspective.

Post # 42 from Shri auh :

Excellent. I wholly support the views!

Post # 43:

Ramayana might have taught good morals (as against the many bad morals also which it contains!) which were cherished some time in the long past by people like ex-hunter Valmiki et al. But when studied from the pov of the 21st. century world, it has few morals to teach but many wrong ideas to tell the people.

Ramayana glorifies a Mir-Jaffar-like Vibheeshana who is extolled as the acme of goodness!

Rama has no qualms asking his wife to pass through the "fire-test" again and again, but even then he comes out as a congenital doubting husband who banishes his (faithful) wife slyly, in the forest and she has to deliver her only son Lava when she had only Valmiki to take care of her. (Kusa's birth is from a piece of Kusa grass!)

Rama tells his mother Kousalya that once he (and Sita and Lakshmana) entered the forest for Vanavasa, they would subsist on roots and fruits, but as soon as they enter the forest (after crossing the ganga in Guha's boat), Lakshmana kills four deer and the three of them eat up all the edible portions in just one meal! Thus Ramayana teaches the good moral that telling a lie to one's mother is not a bad thing, but even the god's avatar will do so!

Hanuman has returned from lanka, with the news of Sita's survival as hostage in lanka. Rama, lakshmana, sugriva, hanuman, angada and a billion others of the vanara army have reached the seashore. They now have to build a bridge across the sea so as to reach lanka.

At this point what is Rama thinking about?

Chapter No. 5 of the Yuddha Kanda gives us the answer.

verse 10: Passionate or desire-filled, I and Sita with her charming thighs are resting on the same Earth. (Though we are separated, we are joined by Earth). It will be enough.

verse 11: When will I behold the lotus-eyed Sita of great hips, defeating the enemies?

verse 14: When will the large, bulging, quivering (vibrating/gyrating) and palm-fruit like breasts of Sita touch me?

If the Supreme God's avatar and the Maryada Purusha can be fantasising on Sita and her beautiful thighs, great hips, large, bulging, quivering (vibrating/gyrating) and palm-fruit like breasts, etc., lesser mortals can readily follow this moral and hence there is no harm if someone else also does similarly!

There are very many such instances. All these will be easily perceived by our next generation youngsters. Hence the urgent need is to not advise anyone to follow the ideals of Ramayana.

 

[yesmohan]

Sir,

What you quote are instances of poetic excellence of Valmiki.

If you go through Kamba Ramayana there are more such instances of poetic excellence; or at least read once CNA's "Kambarasam". More interesting.

I hope you will not refuse to accept at least that there are morals also in Ramayana.

Again quoting the existence of "Kaamaththuppaal", no one will ever said "Thirukkural" is not teaching morals.

 

[tks]

I will respond to Post #41 and Post #43 soon. In reading the responses in these posts it seems that my earlier points may not have been well made.

Rather than address right away, what I may call a disconnect , let me create a thread on the occasion of Guru Poornima (which was on July 31st, 2015) in the philosophy section to share some general thoughts (I was thinking of ) which are relevant to my response here. After that, I will come to share my responses to post #41 and #43

Thanks to Sri auh and Sri Sangom for the respectful engagement. Thanks to Sri yesmohan for your vote of support for ongoing debate

 

[yesmohan]

Sir,

I am neither a supporter nor an opposer of any views. All are entitled to have their own views suited to their logic.

 

[tks]

Sir,

I am neither a supporter nor an opposer of any views. All are entitled to have their own views suited to their logic.

What views you support or not is your own business.
What people are entitled or not is not relevant here.
I just referred only to your expression in post 40 and 33.

 

[P.J.]

Lord Rama Was A King of Sumeria King List

Lord Rama Was A King of Sumeria King List


8 th December 2014

The King List which chronicles a list of Kings of Sumeria is written in Sumerian Language.

Ancient Sumeria, one of the oldest civilizations flourished in the southern parts of Iraq.

In the Kings List, one finds the Dynasties of the Kings of Sumeria with their official locations.

It includes the names of Kings of adjoining countries, then called city states

The Kingship was believed to be from the Gods and was transferable from one city to another.

Sumeria was believed to have had an hegemony during its period of existence.

It is curious to find the name of Lord Rama in the Sumerian King List.

Not only Lord Rama but his brother Bharata also find a place in the List.



King List,Sumeria


”
Fortunately, a study of Sumerian history provides a fairly vivid flesh-and-blood picture of Rama. The highly authentic Sumerian King-list appear such hallowed names as Bharat (Warad) Sin and Rim Sin. Sin was the Moon god Chandra and as the cuneiform symbol for ‘Rim’ can also be read as ‘Ram’, Rim Sin is the same as Rama Chandra.

In the Sumerian texts Ram-Sin is said to be from Elam which links him to Indo-Iran. Rama was the longest reigning monarch of Mesopotamia who ruled for 60 years. Bharat Sin ruled for 12 years (1834-1822 BC), exactly as stated in the Dasaratha Jataka.

The Jataka statement, “Years sixty times hundred, and ten thousand more, all told, / Reigned strong-armed Rama”, only means that Rama reigned for sixty years which agrees exactly with the data of Assyriologists. Ayodhya may be Agade the capital of Sargon which has not yet been identified.

It is possible that Agade was near Der or the Heart near Harayu or Sarayu. Learned scholars like D. P. Mishra were aware that Rama could be from the Herat area.

The noted linguist Sukumar Sen also noted that Rama is a sacred name in the Avesta where he is mentioned together with Vayu.

Rama is called Rama Margaveya in some texts from which Dr. Sen concluded that he hailed from Margiana. The Cambridge Ancient History contains priceless information relevant to Indian ancient history.

The Sumerian records furnish the first date of the Indus era – the war with Ravana took place in 1794 BC. The significance of the fact Ram-Sin’s reign (60 years) was the longest in Sumerian history has been lost on most writers. There are two Ram-Sins in Sumerian history.”…….


My researches into the relationship from between the Dravadas (South of Bharata Varsha) and Sanatana Dharam have led me to establish that the ancestor of Lord Rama, Vaivaswatha Manu migrated from Dravida desa because of a Tsunami to Ayodhya to establish a Kingdom.

* Seemingly different dates of Rama from the Date of Rama of Ramayana tells another story.

Shiva and His sons Ganesha,Muruga left by the Arabian Sea and spread through the Middle East, establishing their lineage en route, Iraq, Africa, Spain,Latin America,North America, Central America before reaching the Arctic where the Rig Veda was composed.

Later their descendants traveled from the Arctic through Russia to reach India again.

These facts are culled from Tamil Classics Vedas, Sanskrit Literature and cross checked by Astronomical facts mentioned in these texts.




Citations.
http://www.ranajitpal.com/rama.html

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Waddell's_chronology
Waddell’s Chronology.



https://ramanan50.wordpress.com/2014/12/08/lord-rama-was-a-king-of-sumeria-king-list/

 

[P.J.]

Further to my Post giving more evidence in Post no 48



All the Expert evidences are submitted vide

Post no1 where Dr Vadlamudi Raghavendra Rao, professor of anthropology, University of Delhi, and one of the authors of the study, said, “Definitely, the events described in Ramayana occurred in real.

The study was carried out by Estonian Biocentre researcher Gyaneshwar Chaubey, Institute of Scientific Research on Vedas, Dr Saroj Bala and Dr Raghavendra Rao. The Bhil, Kol and Gond are three major Indian tribes that have been widely acknowledged in the epic Ramayana, particularly in the chapters Ayodhyakanda, Aranyakanda and Kishkindhakanda.


http://www.indiadivine.org/ramayana-is-real-say-experts/


Some more evidences are given in Post no 28 by vgane Sir

http://www.tamilbrahmins.com/showthread.php?t=25538&page=3


Although accepting these evidences as are ‘marginal at best’ sangom Sir asks for solid proof that Ramayana has to be a real happening and could not have been a story written by somebody in Post no 29

http://www.tamilbrahmins.com/showthread.php?t=25538&page=3

Further he criticizes our Hindu puranas and Ithihasas saying that ‘Puranas & ithihasas have kept us as slaves for millennia and almost any foreigner’-in Post no 35.


No member from this forum have come forward to say to this member “Enough is enough” stop ridiculing our Puranas and Ithihasas !!!!

Only Sri tks sir waged a lone battle against those degrading our great Puranas and Ithihasas




Again in Post no a member advices ‘generation youngsters not to follow the ideals of Ramayana.

In Post no 43


In Religion Folder I have posted a Thread Ramayana is True Life Story
People who belittle Ramayan as a mythology or a mere epic and Lord Ram as a fictitious character should be ready to give up their skepticism. Two Chennai-based botanists have come out with a three-year-long study which establishes that the Ramayan is a true life story authored by Valmiki, incorporating facts, figures, science and environment of the period.



All 182 plants (including flowers, trees, fruits) mentioned in the Ramayan have been found to be true. M Amrithalingam and P Sudhakar, the two botanists working with the CPR Environmental Education Centre, Chennai, said they could confirm the existence of the flora and fauna mentioned by Valmiki in the Ramayan.


“We tracked the route travelled by Lord Ram, Sita and Lakshman from Ayodhya in the north to south as part of their exile to the forest for 14 years. To our surprise, we could identify all the plant species in the Ramayan mentioned by Valmiki along this route,” Amrithalingam told The Pioneer. As a taxonomist, Sudhakar confirmed the plant variety with their Sanskrit and Latin names.


The duo commenced their journey from Ayodhya and reached Chitrakuta’s tropical and deciduous forest. “Valmiki knew his flora, fauna and the geography. What we found was that the same flora and fauna existed in the same places as written in the epic,” pointed out Nanditha Krishna, director, CPREEC, who supervised the project.



http://www.tamilbrahmins.com/showthread.php?t=24788

Also in Post no 4 I have given a link to Lord Rama Fact or Fiction
Written by By Stephen Knapp which gives ample evidence to prove Lord Rama was Real

http://www.stephen-knapp.com/lord_rama_fact_or_fiction.htm

There can not be any concrete reply from these members who oppose Ramayana as Real because they refuse to read and accept these as real Proof.







I Also wonder why most Members of this Great Forum adopts silence to those who vehemently criticize our Puranas and Ithihasas , and do not tell these Empty arguers to STOP these empty arguments !!

These Threads and Posts will be read by many ; free expression does not give anyone to write whatever they think and hurt the sentiments of Millions of Hindus.

 

[auh]

PJ sir,

Relax.

Perhaps you have not got the drift of the argument so far, and hence you deem, by yourselves, that Ramayana is solidly proved!

Well, you are most definitely wrong.

The sumerian story, which you have related need not be true at all. It is merely an interpolation and nothing else. When Megasthenes came to India, he found many similarities between the Greek myth of the Hydra and that of Kalinga (and between Hercules and Krishna, I think). Now this can either mean,

1)That hydra and kalinga are both imaginary, spun by different people in different regions
2)That hydra and kalinga are both imaginary but one has derived from the other, when a tribe separated and settled elsewhere
3)That hydra and kalinga did exist, separately, and the myths are the only proofs till date
4)That hydra and kalinga did exist, but as only one, and the names got split due to settlement elsewhere
5) Only one of them existed and the other was imaginary (and co-incidentally, are similar)

As you can see, interpolations and musings and inferences are only vague at best and can never provide a concrete proof.

Secondly, I hope you have the habit of reading novels. I will consider one as an example - "The day of the jackal by Frederick Forsyth". The thriller novel is based on real life events, based on the assassination attempt on Charles de gaulle. The novel depicts the political scenario, the places, the people etc in great and good detail. But for all that, the novel is, in essence a work of fiction. Imaginary.

Similarly, Valmiki could have travelled places and written about it in his story of Rama. Or there could be many Valmikis, who each contributed to the flora and fauna described in Ramayana. The point is that even though the scenes and period and even characters could be real, the main plot can be a work of fiction.

Just because there is a "murungai maram" in Vikramaditya stories, do you believe the story in which he is supposed to have lived a thousand years on a special "divine" throne gifted to him by Indra?

Proof is something that establishes an event (here, the Ramayana) without the need for any interpolation, and without leaving room for doubts. I wonder if there can be any proof for the Ramayana ! Especially, with tall claims about the divinity of Rama and Sita.

Rest assured that by critically questioning the epic, one need not necessarily belittle it.

Just the other day, you opened a thread in which people have built temples for Amitabh Bhaccan and Sachin Tendulkar. Such people would be least bothered by facts that point out that AB and ST are but normal people; for them, and in their pov, AB and ST are god! So is Rama to millions of hindus, perhaps. Fear not for such devotion is hardly moved by facts!



Best regards,