T
talwan
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These points of existance of God is Going on for centuries.It won't end in'few generations'.
Alwan
Alwan
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arunshanker
Active member
This a typical example of "Appeal to Tradition" which is a fallacy that occurs when it is assumed that something is better or correct simply because it is older, traditional, or "always has been done." This sort of "reasoning" has the following form:
- X is old or traditional
- Therefore X is correct or better.
Wait . First things first. Please first define the terms 'statue' and 'God'. Then we can take up your above two cases for discussion.
No. They are not proven nor are they a phenomenon. You already have (in your own words) a friend who sees nuclear reaction in a IC engine and a rocket engine firing inside a TV tube.So what is the proven fact here?
Who does not exist? If you try to answer this question you will understand that your 'logical opposition possibility' has no meaning or validity or even applicability to the problem in hand.
Your statements:1.happiness is derived by not bothering to know god.2.happiness is derived by not bothering to questioning 'God' So 2 is a logical opposition possibility(LOP) of 1.So 'to know' and 'to question' are logically equal.Is it a presumption in your theory of "logical opposition possibility" that the words 'to know god' is equal in meaning to the words "to question the 'God'". Don't you think in one there is effort, action, endeavor(all positive actions) are called for and in the other discarding, jettisoning,unlearning and giving up(every thing negative) is involved.How can these two diametrically opposite processes be used as similarity in possibilities and used for proving a LOP.;I have not studied logic and so I do not know what this kind of logical fallacy is called. You can tell me.I am not giving you other similar LOPs that can be formed purely from the angle of logic and they will all be just absurdities.I don't do that because i don't want again a tennis ball and citric fruit situation.
Cheers.
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Dear Yamaka,
If God is a mental construct of man, so is love, affection, values, mercy, empathy,enmity,hatred and many other things. Why did we invent these? So your "man creating God" does not wash. We only question the wisdom of this mental construct of the so called atheists. As long as you say you do not know or that you are not sure about the existence of a God we can understand you. Well you are trying to understand and you may succeed or not. But to say man created God is an insult to theists and we object to that.
Fury is not the word. We feel slighted and we protest.
I have already said this once. I repeat. This is the fond wish of atheists. But the situation on the ground does not give any scope for such optimism.
Cheers.
If God is a mental construct of man, so is love, affection, values, mercy, empathy,enmity,hatred and many other things. Why did we invent these? So your "man creating God" does not wash. We only question the wisdom of this mental construct of the so called atheists. As long as you say you do not know or that you are not sure about the existence of a God we can understand you. Well you are trying to understand and you may succeed or not. But to say man created God is an insult to theists and we object to that.
Fury is not the word. We feel slighted and we protest.
I have already said this once. I repeat. This is the fond wish of atheists. But the situation on the ground does not give any scope for such optimism.
Cheers.
arunshanker
Active member
Do you mean the working of the TV and Tractor here
I think you have made a decisive statement here that questioning God is every thing negative and not questioning God is Positive
You have a strong opinion here. Actually you have already decided the argument by saying who is negative and who is positive
There is not much to discuss here because I presume you have already made up you mind. But what is "unlearning" you mean athiest "unlearn"
arunshanker
Active member
These were not invented by man they have biological biochemical and Neurobiological behavioral basis
In fact religion too has a behavioral basis
arunshanker
Active member
http://www.tamilbrahmins.com/
love, affection, values, mercy, empathy,enmity,hatred is not a mental construct of man. In fact many animals have these (love, affection, values, mercy, empathy,enmity,hatred) like I said they are behaviors. Dogs have love, affection etc.,
arunshanker
Active member
Could you please tell more about the "situation on the ground "
arunshanker
Active member
If man did not then who did. To take an opinion as an insult is an insular mind but to object to it is an open mind
C RAVI
0
God created Man...A unique and special species on this Earth to help themselves to realize the truth and get out of the sufferings, so as to be a part and parcel of the Supreme Power...
C RAVI
0
Offcourse humans are some what similar to animals. But for better social survival, religion framed the instruments wich over the time transformed to Democratic Law and Order..
Humans can love any other human beings and other creatures on Earth. Humans could achieve law and order. Humans could achieve descency and etiquette and the foundation of all these is Religion.
How the religion came into existence? How such an enlightment was possible? Who was exceptionally behind it 1000s of years before? Humans may have evolved over a period of time, but how such code of conduct, proper living style, descipline etc could be propelled such a way that Humans could be destinguished creature on this Earth from time immemorial?
Being a Universal Peace Lover, Philanthopist, Scientists etc need not be based on belief in GOD. But how such defined and refined qualities could be achieved only by Human species? Why other species could not achieve such a refined state, living under the same sky, inhaling the same oxygen and eating & extracting wastes similar to we Humans? Why other living beings are in static state of mind and stuck with the fixed behavior pattern unique to each of them, ever?
As a human we can say that Dog is Dog, Cat is Cat, Tiger is Tiger, Elephant is Elephant, Snake is Snake, Warm is Warm, Fish is Fish, Peacock is Peacok etc..etc..and we Humans are Humans. Why such distinguished living creatures are survining on this Earth? The energies in the atmosphere and the elements of the nature are all pervading uniformly. Than why such distinguished existence of Species?
Why humans alone could have vibrant rational thinking and capacity to cross question, examine & dream of more advancements, can talk anything and do anything, can rule on allmost all the other living creatures etc..etc.?
Yes, Dogs have love and affection BUT why can't they tame and control humans?
Why only humans are controling everything?
Just to refer to a popular creature, Elephant is bigger and stronger than Humans. But why Elephants could never ever control Human beings?
Why nature is biased with other living creatures? Why humans alone could emerge as the most dominating species?
Why it is that humans alone could have the ability to develp magic skills, hypnotic skills, meditation skills etc..etc?
Why nature is having a natural order of survival (life and death in all the species, only female species can conceive and deliver in all forms of living beings) BUT differing behavioral and development patterns?
Humans can watch TV without knowing the internal circuit logic. But, can not make an attempt to change televion into refrigerator. A person can drive tractor without knowing the mechanism. But can not make an attempt to convert a tractor into Aeroplane.
Because both TV and tractor are technically designed to perform as such.
Likewise we can realize God, but can not convert GOD into any object/shape to be presented in front of humans to prove the existence of GOD Scientifically.
TV got the logic from humans to perfom. But can not question humans for different style of operation.
Likewise GOD created Humans to live for a purpose. But we can not question GOD to change our form. We can cross question only to realize more
truth and get close to GOD. But can not overrule GOD.
Dear Raju:
1. As Arun said the emotions you cited are NOT man's inventions... they are neuro-biological expression of living beings, including Homo sapiens - the humans.
As human beings are born, they are simply Naturalists (part of the universe of Nature)... it's the customs and practices of the parents that FORCE FEED the child their mental constructs of GOD or Iswara.. and the child start hallucinating about the awesome power of God and Iswara, as preached and practiced by the parents and/or the immediate surroundings.
Therefore, I dare to opine that Atheism is the Natural State of Humans.... the artificiality of Theism is forced upon us by the ancestry, which has been reeling in FEAR and Superstition under the guise of TRADITION. It's up to you to understand the fallacy of the Theism.. we just don't care whether you understand it or not... We will leave it as your Civil Right to believe in anything you want to believe: A Stone Structure - an Idol - as the Almighty God or not...
2. We still are bewildered to know why you are slighted and feel insulted about our POV of the non-existent God?
3. Let me tell you about the "situation on the ground":
Granted, only 10% of the world population is Atheists aka Naturalists aka Agnostics aka Rationalists.
I estimate that about 40% are "weekend / month end / year end religious wannabee"... I call these people as "Agno- Theists" (like my wife - a Trichy TB...): these people are not quite sure of the existence and the power of God... but still out of sheer Tradition they go to Temple / Mosque / Church as and when it is convenient! For these people, God is for convenience!
The rest (50% of the total) are the God-fearing people of Religious Orthodoxy...
My reading is that the last group is slowly and steadily losing membership to the Agno-Theists, which is a very good sign, IMO.... I hypothesize that most of the children of these people will become active members of Atheism, the final stage of Moksha - the Enlightenment.
Your observation that still the Temples/Churches/Mosques draw the largest crowds is consistent with my calculation above.
But the dynamics is changing, as more and more people finish school and go to college and become independent thinkers.
That's the key...
Peace.
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arunshanker said:
It appears that both theists and atheists are happy.
Unhappiness seems to sprout only when they enter into arguments such as the ones we see here.
Yamaka said:
Yamaka said:
I think the answer to this question is well known.
That is, the "point-of-view" talked about here is not simply a point of view.
when atheists categorize theists either as cheats or as fools, it is natural for the theists to take offense.
arunshanker
Active member
Are you sure here what about being alone in the natural habitat of the animal even reasonable armed who is controlling the actions of whom here
Are you sure here again all one has to do is have the specific parts and take apart the TV or tractor and refit
How can you decisively say that “humans alone could have vibrant rational thinking’ do we actually know what the animals are thinking” I would say that we only” think” and “assume” that we are the only ones with “vibrant rational thinking’ we don’t know for sure
That is what I am trying to say the belief and faith is dogmatic and one cannot question it. Religion and faith does not allow questioning because not questioning is the basis of religion. If you start questioning you are a dissident. It is like saying “just listen to what I say and don’t talk and question”
what if the cross questioning takes us to the realization that is against the dogma. I mean does religion and God allow cross questioning only to the extant that the unquestionable is not touched upon
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Dear Yamaka,
When human beings can live without these so called neuro-biological expressions what was the pressing need that made humans go for these expressions. I do not agree with you if you include values also in this list of expressions. Values are what one acquires. They have nothing to do with the neuro-biological expressions. So my question to Arun stands and begs an answer.
Humans have come a long distance away from the natural state in many aspects. Take nakedness for instance. It is the most natural state of humans. Today if you go naked in the road you will be called a lunatic. So we have added many modifications to the 'most natural expressions' as time progressed. Many of them from the realisation that they are good and real and are needed by humans. If theism is an artificiality many other good things of human existence are also artificialities. But we do not consider them forced on us. The same way theism is seen by theists. The 'fallacy of theism' is for theists to think about and it does not lie on you to come and teach us anything. Please keep your moth-eaten ideas of atheism with you. We do not want to hear any more of it. I am polite and hope you understand.Thank you.
We feel slighted not because you have a POV different from ours but because you are trying again and again to put down our POV and rub your POV on us.
This is your understanding of the ground realities and is far from the actual situation. The only thing correctly worked out in your above "hypothesis" is that the percentages add up to 100. Any way as I said earlier it is your fond hope and you have a 'civil right' to hope for such things.
Cheers.
When human beings can live without these so called neuro-biological expressions what was the pressing need that made humans go for these expressions. I do not agree with you if you include values also in this list of expressions. Values are what one acquires. They have nothing to do with the neuro-biological expressions. So my question to Arun stands and begs an answer.
Humans have come a long distance away from the natural state in many aspects. Take nakedness for instance. It is the most natural state of humans. Today if you go naked in the road you will be called a lunatic. So we have added many modifications to the 'most natural expressions' as time progressed. Many of them from the realisation that they are good and real and are needed by humans. If theism is an artificiality many other good things of human existence are also artificialities. But we do not consider them forced on us. The same way theism is seen by theists. The 'fallacy of theism' is for theists to think about and it does not lie on you to come and teach us anything. Please keep your moth-eaten ideas of atheism with you. We do not want to hear any more of it. I am polite and hope you understand.Thank you.
We feel slighted not because you have a POV different from ours but because you are trying again and again to put down our POV and rub your POV on us.
This is your understanding of the ground realities and is far from the actual situation. The only thing correctly worked out in your above "hypothesis" is that the percentages add up to 100. Any way as I said earlier it is your fond hope and you have a 'civil right' to hope for such things.
Cheers.
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Man did not and man does not know who did it or whether any one or anything did it at all. Please tell me who created universe? in your answer will lie the answer to your question also. I am not talking here at the level at which I would expect you to say God created universe. I am beyond that.
You have the freedom to interpret the way you want. But I have my views about whose mind is insular and whose is not.
arunshanker
Active member
Are you sure they don't. Actually I must say I dont know. I cant say say decisively that they dont have values. Not knowing if they have or not have does not take us to a decision. We can only say we dont know if they have it or not. In fact there are many social animals - Like ants, bees etc.,
Please answer straight: Is value also a neurobiological expression or not? If it is please explain its structure. If not , say it is not, so that we can move ahead.
Cheers.
arunshanker
Active member
You mean you wont take "I don't know for an answer"
At present I dont know
Give some time I will do some research and get back to you
arunshanker
Active member
Man I guess knows a lot or least thinks he knows some thing.
There is a school of thought based on theoretical physics referred by peers which says “The presence of the laws of physics for example that such as gravity, the universe was created and also can and will create itself from nothing. Spontaneous creation is the reason there is something as against than nothing, Spontaneous creation is also the reason why the universe exists, why we exist. I guess it can be said that the universe didn't need a God to begin; it was quite capable of launching its existence on its own."
Actually this can be based on creation in an empty space and based on Special Relativity. Special Relativity does allow creation of matter and antimatter – but it holds for only a very small time. the time just before creation
Could you elaborate
There is no problem. I will take that. But you were not answering straight and I had to remind you.
Cheers.
Dear Arun,
The same laws of physics say that matter is not destructible completely.
I had asked you a question and I could have expected an answer at one level which would say Someone/something created the universe. Knowing your standpoint I did not expect that as a reply and that is what I meant by my 'I am beyond that'. It simply means "I know your position in this matter and so I do not expect your reply admitting that some thing created the universe."
The same laws of physics say that matter is not destructible completely.
I had asked you a question and I could have expected an answer at one level which would say Someone/something created the universe. Knowing your standpoint I did not expect that as a reply and that is what I meant by my 'I am beyond that'. It simply means "I know your position in this matter and so I do not expect your reply admitting that some thing created the universe."
கால பைரவன்;91183 said:
Dear Kala Bairavan:
"when atheists categorize theists either as cheats or as fools, it is natural for the theists to take offense."
Perhaps, so.. but it is totally a side product, if any.. for it is unintentional... you have to believe me on this.
In fact, the Theists believe that they have the protection of the God Almighty who is Omnipresent and Omnipotent.. then, why to take offense on someone else's POV? They have the complete cover of the Almighty! Is it not?
Here what we write is simply our own POV - from either our own original thinking and/or acquired thru our life experience.
Here is a brief summary of my background and experience:
1. I was brought up in a small rural village in the backwaters of Ramnad Taluk in TN under the watchful guidance of orthodox religious parents and villagers. Their life started with God and slowly ended with God, and His name is called upon nearly 20 hours of a day.
2. Around age 19-20, I got my Eureka moment or Revelation after talking to a Godman who cursed me "Nee Naasama Povai, because you are asking too many fundamental questions of religion and the power of God.."
Suddenly, I blurted out "Swamiji, please wait and watch, how I live".
3. My friends and relatives came to know of this Revelation and my confrontation with the all knowing Godman... they all feared that God Almighty will punish me....
They said, I may not pass my B.Sc..... I did pass with flying colors.
They said, I will not get admission to M.Sc..... I did get into a prestigious new M.Sc. program started by Elite Professors.
They said, I will not pass my M. Sc..... I did pass with distinction.
They said, I will not get into a PhD program.....I did get into it, and had my PhD Thesis adjudicated by Japanese and American Scientists. I did publish high quality research papers in refereed international journals of high reputation.
They said I just can't get married... I did get married to the Sweetheart from the Graduate School, a Sweet and Smart TB
They said I will not go to US.... I came to US in late 1979 and I am very successful and happy.
They said I will not have any kids .... I have a daughter (26) and a son (22). Very healthy, pretty and handsome kids.
They said my kids will be dumb and useless because of Secular Household.... My daughter went to Cornell, and son to Stanford!
You see, my life experience is very rich and inspirational... I worked harder than anybody around me for the past 50 years and I am enjoying the fruits of social, political and economic freedoms that anyone can imagine of.
Some men created God Almighty, and all the Organized Religions....it is just a FICTION...a FACADE to hide ones ignorance and/or to control, to dominate and/or to exploit the unsuspecting innocent people!
And..That's my POV.
Peace.
ps. Some of the Theists could now PM Praveen for a ban on me! Lol. That's the power of the Tyranny of the Majority, I suppose. :behindsofa:
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