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Status of Women in Brahmin Community

  • Thread starter Thread starter hariharan1972
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Talking about seers is not the postings in this forum about women insulting to seers like Vagumbirini the seer of Devi Suktham (Rigveda samhita, mandalam 10 Ashtakam 8) and Ubhaya Bharati the wife of Mandana Mishra who was the the sole judge in the debate between Adi Sankara and Mandana Mishra?

A number of scholarly studies have proved beyond doubt that women occupied an eminent position during the Vedic times and later.

In Sri Vidya Upasana women are initiated into the Panchdasakshari mantra and perform nava avarana puja independently. They can also be gurus and intiate others. All sankara mathams follow the Sri Vidya upasana.
 
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Mr MM,

I would agree with your views that taking care of kids would be one of the very important tasks of the mother. But back then the community was different. Should I simplify by saying that one did not have so many distractions? But still I would not think this as an excuse.

Living in USA for a while now, I have seen first hand how child neglect is not very different from child abuse. Where as the former leads to sociopaths and latter leads to psychopaths. But when a society is undergoing changes, may the righteous ones change it and others just adapt to it.

From my little understanding, I would consider papam(sin) to be an action or inaction that could cause harm to others now or later. So, if the welfare of the children is the primary concern, one can have someone else look after the kid when the mother is busy. I remember in olden days, they had "thaathi pen" (or similar) to take care of children when the mother is away. So, I would believe free will is more important and knowledge and maturity would make one a better person and the society will find an answer to all the problems. But a relevant question would be - Do we have enough time?
 
Mr Gowri Shankar! (Oops)

Thanks for trouble to reply.

Eventhough times are changing, the need of the infant to look for his/her mother for want of bonding,security simply motherly love is intense and doesn't change. The time element didn't replace this. The yearning for the infant for his mother is a non-negotiable issue. There is no 80:20 or 20: 80 ratio. It is absolute 100:0.

On "Thathi" - When I said infant neglection, It is in the sense of importance of the role between mother and child. Ofcourse no mother is going to leave their child alone - the time hasn't come yet. They will definetly make some form of alternate arrangements to look after the child.

But none could replace the bonding between a child and mother. In the womb the kid is accustomed to her voice, her vibrations, her touch etc.. It feels at home when attended by the mother. As a father of 2 kids I've seen it. My daughter used to cry even if other touch the cradle to rock. To her she needs only her mom to take care of her. I was told many kids are like this.

So if in the olden days, the practice of leaving to "Tathi " is there, then lets eschew it. We don't need to follow it. In olden days they used to have many but now mostly 2 or 3. So we can plan to dedicate some part of our life for the kids right? They didn't ask for TV,property, car... They just long for their own mother's company and touch.

If one learn how to set proper priorities in life, then they will definetly have ample time to devote for there kids.

The other things like knowledge and maturity is important too , but infant care is a basic and fundamental duty of each and every mother , they shouldn't comprimise by relegating their duty to "thathi" or Modern montessories.

The kids need their emotional security first. The intellectual capacity will mature later.

Infact in Sandhyavandanam - whenever we chant the mantra of the deity of water - "apo devata" - we pray to the diety to mature us just like the way an exemplarary mother nutures an infant to maturity in a gradual order.

Regards
MM
 
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Mr MM,

Two things.
1) I am mr. Gowrishankar V.
2) I am not justifying child neglect among women. But I definitely could understand if incase it happens for the right reasons. For example, when I get married and my wife is working and when there is a child we have to talk. If I come to understand her job means more to her, then may be I should quit my job and take care of the kid.

I am just trying to say that someone should take care of the kid. It is for the best if that someone is the mother. But if not, dad, grand parents, etc. could be considered.

I am not saying one should change with the time. And that reference to "thaathi" was not for justifying child neglect by the mother. It was just an observation and agreement on what Nacchinarkiniyen was saying that the practice was prevalent and not something new.

Now, eventhough I agree with you, that mother is the best person to take care of the child, I would not impose it on anybody. As you said, one should know their priorities. I want to believe in the mother (or the father) to know what is best for their kid. And if they are poor (or need double income for a better life), I want believe that they know what they are doing.

And yes, may be we need better examples and proper awareness from our media, social forums, etc.
 
Dear Sri N,

Your complaint on women rights on funeral rites, Vedic Mantra chanting, Griha puja falls under the preview of do's and don't of our religion. Which in turn is based on Shrutis and Smritis. Which comes to us from Seers. So I addressed for the complaints you may have to ask the GOD himself.

We too know about female Seers to whom GOD has revealed himself as mantras. In our Brahma yagyam we do the "Tharpanams" to those female Seers also. Here God himself choose to reveal himself as "Mantra".

There are number of mantras that can be chanted by any sex with varying degress of athikarathvam. There are others strictly for men. There may be other striclty for women also (who knows?) - Why it is like that?

Strictly we have no answers, because we are followers and we obey the command of the Shrutis and Smritis. So when you come up with many complaints all we could say, is to make those complaint at the correct source.
It is puzzling how you miss this logic?

On women rights...

It is a question of allocation of duties, women are blessed with nurturing capablities. In any puja, someone has to prepare the naivedya and some has to perform the puja. It is an arrangement of convinence in accordance with the natural capablities and ofcourse we obey the command too.

To say that, by relegating them to be a cook we insulted women is playing on their complexities.
To us the act of preparing and serving food is a divine act. We view them as Goddess Annapurni when and she is the only person fit to serve "GOD" who was invited in our puja.

In many households girls were taught on various fine-arts and they have a rich identity with our culture than the boys. For boys for custom sake they initiate with upanayana and with the academic education he couldn't even follow the daily ritual and commitents that he ought to do. He is lost in his pursuit and he skirts away his mantra balam, he live a life of shudra, there is no Brahmna balam and he is indeed lost. He is in the most pitiable state.

You as a scholar or an avid reader about our culture , if you could come up with the answers for some of the puzzles in our religion instead of complaints, we will definetly hold you in respect.

Just some light imaginations.....

On you pyre rites, some more intersting thoughts..

Lets say GOD have give the funeral rites to women also, what would people say, This GOD is very cruel - For he ask the very wife - to lit the pyre of the husband body. He is very insensitive for He don't understand a women's heart.
On Mashanam entry....
She is 8X more in "ACHHAM, NANNAM, MADAM AND PAYIRPU" than man , Does "HE" not know this? Why he ask us to go there? for what?

Poor God - he will then sing this song..

Vazhnathalu esum , thazhntahlum esum, vaiyegam ethu thann ada...

Regards
MM
 
Dear Sri KRS,

My arguments are within the boundary of the Vedic dictions only. For I'm not competent enough to have any say on the way of life or culture that fall outside this limit. I see the saints of Sri Ramana and Sri Ramakrishna and his disciple are the fruits of the Vedic Tree. As for Sri Ramanuja , only his disciples are fit enough to tell whether he trangressed the vedic injuctions or not .

But I've read "Thirupavais" of ANDAL NACHHIYAR where she urges diciples to follow the Vedic Scripture. As all we know Sage Veda Vyasa - who compiled the Veda is the "AVATARA"of Sri Hari.

I've seen your un-edited reply on my email. I wish not to pursue with any dialogues with you. For I see myself incompetent to argue with the likes of you.

Again good-bye my friend
MM
 
Dear malgova.mango Ji,

You said:

"I've seen your un-edited reply on my email. I wish not to pursue with any dialogues with you. For I see myself incompetent to argue with the likes of you."

That I somehow edited my postings in this Forum to edit my replies in a way to alter my views? Or that I have written some e-mails to you regarding this topic?

Both implications are totally false! If I have edited any of my postings in this Forum, I have only done so to edit my spellings/grammer or to better say what I was saying. But when one edits one's posting in the Forum, one can always see 'Edited by' message at the bottom of the posting. Please tell me where I have done so in my response to you. I would expect you to clarify this to our Forumites, after you make such an accusation!

If not, for the other option, I HAVE NEVER WRITTEN ANY E-MAILS TO YOU!

It is okay, if you do not wish to pursue any dialog with me going forward. But, please do not throw veiled accusations that are not true.

Your understanding of what are the 'vedic dictions' are unfortunately, my friend, not in conformance with those dictions. Obviously, you can not defend your stand by quoting specific citations in our Vedas and hence all this smoke and bluster and false accusations. So be it.

Pranams,
KRS


 
Dear Sri KRS!

I first saw your reply on my email apparently the forum directs this to my inbox - where you have stated on your respect, value to Shastra - How ? that "Shastra" needs to cater your present day needs and if not you will not hesitate to throw that out. I'm speechless at your remarks.

When I read your reply in the postings somehow I've missed this words, so I used the words "un-edited reply" - Oops my mistake. I've no intention to harm you. It is good that you brought it out. My apologies

It is not that I couldnt reply to your questions, with this sort of devotion to Shastra it is not worth replying anything to you.

You have great respects to other cults and religion , I admire that.

We see "Shastras" with reverence and devotion. The Veda Mantras are nothing but "Ishvara" himself. That is how we see. For us Bhakthi means to follow the Shastra. Please be aware of this sensitivities. But if you choose not to respect it, I can't do anything about it . So it is my sincere request that you please respect our sensitivities.

Regards the "devoid of humanity" comments - Why you said this? - I've trampled upon what sentiments? How did you precieved it as insensitive ? Please enlighten me.

Regards
malgova.mango
 
Dear Sri Gowri Shankar!

I'm not imposing anything on anybody, nor I could do so. For by this forum only exchange of views are possible.

But your right reason, doesn't sound right to me. You can take care of the kid, but biologically you are handicapped and further the kid may want only to be with the mother. How are you going to address that?


Regards
malgova.mango
 
Dear Sri malgova.mango Ji,

My reponse is interspersed among your comments in 'blue'.
malgova.mango said:
Dear Sri KRS!

I first saw your reply on my email apparently the forum directs this to my inbox - where you have stated on your respect, value to Shastra - How ? that "Shastra" needs to cater your present day needs and if not you will not hesitate to throw that out. I'm speechless at your remarks.

I did not make up the statement - Swami Vivekananda said these:

"Personally I take as much of the Vedas as agrees with reason. Parts of the Vedas are apparently contradictory. They are not considered as inspired in the Western sense of the word, but as the sum tote of the knowledge of God, omniscience. This knowledge comes out at the beginning of a cycle and manifests itself; and when the cycle ends, it goes down into minute form. When the cycle is projected again, that knowledge is projected again with it. So far the theory is all right. But that only these books which are called the Vedas are His knowledge is mere sophistry. Manu says in one place that that part of the Vedas which agrees with reason is the Vedas and nothing else. Many of our philosophers have taken this view."

and this:

"Of all the scriptures of the world it is the Vedas alone that declare that even the study of the Vedas is secondary. The real study is "that by which we realise the Unchangeable". And that is neither reading, nor believing, nor reasoning, but superconscious perception, or Samâdhi."

and this:

"How many in our country truly understand the Shastras nowadays? They have only learnt such words as Brahman, Maya, Prakriti, and so on, and confuse their heads with them. Setting aside the real meaning and purpose of the Shastras, they fight over the words only. If the Shastras cannot help all men in all conditions at all times, of what use, then, are such Shastras? If the Shastras show the way to the Sannyasins only and not to the householders, then what need has a householder for such one-sided Shastras? If the Shastras can only help men when they give up all work and retire into the forests, and cannot show the way of lighting the lamp of hope in the hearts of men of the workaday world — in the midst of their daily toil, disease, misery, and poverty, in the despondency of the penitent, in the self-reproach of the downtrodden, in the terror of the battlefield, in lust, anger and pleasure, in the joy of victory, in the darkness of defeat, and finally, in the dreaded night of death — then weak humanity has no need of such Shastras, and such Shastras will be no Shastras at all!"

It is a well established dictum to consider Srutis as divine. The Dharma Shastras are Smritis, and it is also an established dictum that the are not from what were 'heard', but rather derivatives of the Srutis. Take Manu Smriti, for example. Scholors now generally agree that this Smriti has been changed and/or appended to continuosly till Adi Shankara's time, by different authors who all called themselves 'Manu'. Half of the slokas are said to be not 'authentic'. There are a few that are contradictory. Same holds true more or less for other dharma shastras. So, when Smritis like this one, which was intended to be constantly updated according to time and culture, can not said to be God's creation, but rather man's creation. Just because these were 'remembered' in Sanskrit, does not mean the they are God given.

When I read your reply in the postings somehow I've missed this words, so I used the words "un-edited reply" - Oops my mistake. I've no intention to harm you. It is good that you brought it out. My apologies

Apology accepted.

It is not that I couldnt reply to your questions, with this sort of devotion to Shastra it is not worth replying anything to you.

Again, I consider the Srutis as divine and God given, but consider the Smritis as 'how to live' literature that are open to be updated according to the times. So, in my terminology, I seperate Srutis and Smritis and when I say 'Shastra' it is the Smritis I refer to, and while I accept the validity of the most of them, some which I consider to have been tampered with, I do not see them as valid for today's life.

You have great respects to other cults and religion , I admire that.

I do not have any respects for any cults (I am using the negative meaning for the word). I admire my own religion first. And my religion tells me to respect other valid religions.

We see "Shastras" with reverence and devotion. The Veda Mantras are nothing but "Ishvara" himself. That is how we see. For us Bhakthi means to follow the Shastra. Please be aware of this sensitivities. But if you choose not to respect it, I can't do anything about it . So it is my sincere request that you please respect our sensitivities.

I would never dream of questioning the Veda Mantras' divine origin.

Regards the "devoid of humanity" comments - Why you said this? - I've trampled upon what sentiments? How did you precieved it as insensitive ? Please enlighten me.

Respect from humanity comes from empathy and grace. There are extreme circumstances in real life that must be accommodated by any religion. To deny a decent funeral to a person, just because he had no male progeny is just flat out wrong. To suggest that such a person should have adopted a boy just to do the last rights, to me, is devoid of humanity.

Regards
malgova.mango
Click to expand...

Pranams,
KRS
 
Can one member edit another member's posting? Is it possible? I thought only the Admin would have the right to do so with due notice to the poster.

If one member can alter another member's posting I would find it extremely unethical.

Can the Admin throw some light on it?
 
MM Sir,

We can argue for the heck of it. What if the mother dies giving birth to the kid?

While arguing, I cannot just take the best possible scenarios for me and so should you.
 
Sri KRS,

No wonder , my elder brother , who did his schooling in the Ramakrishna Mission school became an atheist. - Thanks for your quotations from his book. What to say?

The shastra address the 4 stages of life - called ashrama dharma systematically and beautifully leaving no stones un-turned. How can a person of his stature can say that the Shastra didn't address house holders life. But he used the word "if" so without the full context it is hard to judge what he says... Puzzling... May be he is carried away by some thought. To err is human , He did a lot of good works also lets be content with that. Anyway that's India. We have saints in many forms adored for many reasons.

BTW - for Kali yuga - we don't have - VANA PRASTHA ASHRAMA -May be it is the foresight of the seers that there won't be any forest left worth inhabiting.

For kali yuga - Manu smriti is not relevant.

For Kali yuga - Aswamedha yagya is not relevant.

Again this are from traditional scholars advise. Meaning the likes of "Maha-periyava". We traditionalist only consider people who undergone "COMPLETE" training in "Guru-shisya" paramapara as scholars. The western oriented or indian academic scholars we don'recognise because normally they don't have the "Nithya Anushtana Balam" to gain insights.

We do agree traditional scholars do approve some changes with time, but those changes are not fundamental changes but some superficial adjustments to meet the need of the hour.

So the specific complaints in this thread like, women rights on pyre lighting, mashanam entry, grha puja by a widow and vedic chanting falls under fundamental changes. Nobody has the authority but by "HE" alone is authority over it. Since you are believers I suggested to do tapas to "HIM" to
seek amendments.

Of course we guys have given the freedom of choice to bind to scriptures (the sacred thread symbolize that) or one can cut loose and act according to one's own wishes. I clearly addressed this already.

It is warming, that you too share the same sentiments on Vedic Mantra.

On the comment...
Oh! so you felt that I, should not have handled in that way. Please help me - how best I could have conveyed it. Since you are very articulate I seek your help in it.

What I wanted to say is that before any crisis - there is an ample of time left to foresee the event coming and for preventive action.

It is in the spirit of defending the Shastrigals and Shastra only I questioned, beacuse the complaints are against them. Does that mean I've no empathy?

Please put yourself in the shoes of Shastrigal, how best you would have handled it? I know it is hard for you, you are too quick to throw shastra away, but give a try. Remember now you are shastrigal who follows the words of the scripture.

Grace - This is definetly alien character to me , Many say I'm too blunt and open. But I don't think that I can learn this from you. You are like me, you too are blunt. I hope you agree with me on this.

Pranams
MM
 
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Appayya Dikshidar performed the Soma Yajna/Vajapeya sacrifice sacrificing 17 horses in Kanchipuram. This is history.

http://www.dlshq.org/saints/appayya.htm

Swami Sivananda belonged to the family of Appayya Dikshidar.

Swami Sivananda advised people to take Vanaprastha Ashrama. The vanam (forest) is not the most important thing in this ashrama. But renunciation, study, and contemplation.

Of course Appayya Dikshidar and Swami Sivananda may not be recognized by the pseudo Brahmins.

Recently one of our learned Pundits had denounced Chandi Yagna in a popular magazine. The Pundit was asked a question about putting Sarees in the Yagna. He called it Tantrik and said that Adi Sankarachraya had banned all Tantrik practices. Adi Sankara is the author of Soundhrya Lahiri a Tantrik text. All the Sankara Mathams practice Sri Vidya which is Tantrik. The Pujas in the temples are also Tantrik/Agamic.

So there are ever so many things which our Sasthirigal/Purohits do not know. In fact many of them can not even read Sanskrit leave alone understand the scriptures. Just check up how many of them carry the book Thaitthriya mantra kosa in Tamil, published by the Ramakrishna Mission.

Purohits are not the authority on Scriptures. Purohits are not the typical Brahmins. History reveals that the hatred towards the Brahmins was mainly due to the action of the Purohits. Many a time they forget that Hinduism did not evolve to provide a means of earning money for the Purohits.

The scriptures enjoin us to check the qualification of the Brahmin who officiates in functions.

This a list of Gurus and saints of Hinduism from ODP.

http://editors.dmoz.org/Society/Religion_and_Spirituality/Hinduism/Gurus_and_Saints/

How many of them are recognized by the pseudo Brahmins?

This group was against the translation of the Vedas. They tried their best to prevent any translation. Even today there are very few translations in Indian languages. Vedas are eternal and are revealed knowledge. But why should the common man be prevented from understanding the Vedas? Because it means a loss of power for certain group of Brahmins.
 
On the efficacy of the Manthras

At Isha Yoga Centre at the foothills of Vellingiri,near
Coimbatore.Sivaratri is a great event on Mahasivaratri day with
Discourses,Bhajans,Namasakeertanam and Music.Sadguru narrated a story
which is very appealing.Here it is.
A sage asked Siva what was so great about his name "Siva Sambho".Siva
said."I don't know.You try it on the worm wriggling in front of
you.The Saint uttered "Siva Sambho" and the worm died instantly.The
Sage looked at Siva with shock only to be asked to repeat the matra on
the butterfly that was flitting by.The sage did so unwillingly and the
butterfly fell dead.Soon a lovely fawn was sprinting in front of
them.As Sage could not disobey Siva he uttered the mantra again and
lo! The fawn dropped dead.
Soon a couple came with their newborn baby to the saint to receive his
blessings.This time he refused to obey Siva.But the baby spoke, "O
saint! Please utter the mantra.You said that when I was a worm.I
became a butterfly.From butterfly,I became a fawn and now a human
baby.If you say it now,I will become divine".The saint realised the
efficacy of the mantra.
(Excerpts from The Hindu supplyment Friday review dated March 14, 2008.)
 
Dear Sri malgova.mango Ji,

I would ask you to go back to my detailed respose to you in the posting one before the last and answer point by point my questions. I am spending a bit of time, answering your points, in the interest of clarifying my position to both you and the readers, and it would add value to conversation if you did the same.

Having said that, my response is in 'blue' below:

malgova.mango said:
Sri KRS,

No wonder , my elder brother , who did his schooling in the Ramakrishna Mission school became an atheist. - Thanks for your quotations from his book. What to say?

The shastra address the 4 stages of life - called ashrama dharma systematically and beautifully leaving no stones un-turned. How can a person of his stature can say that the Shastra didn't address house holders life. But he used the word "if" so without the full context it is hard to judge what he says... Puzzling... May be he is carried away by some thought. To err is human , He did a lot of good works also lets be content with that. Anyway that's India. We have saints in many forms adored for many reasons.

This is why I said some time ago that like the Varna/Jathi question there are areas of Hinduism where our saints have sometimes differed (like the Rishis in vedic age sometimes differed). It seems to me that you think that you can evaluate Swami Vivekananda's credentials as a true saint. I do not have that qualification. I accept Him as one of the many giants of Hinduism. Your curious statement about Sri Ramanuja in the last posting also amplifies your position on this. You seem to follow Maha Periaval's words, when convenient, but tend to dimisih the works of other saints just because their words differ from His. I can undersatnd following a school of thought, but I do not understand this diminishing and rediculing other saints' words.

We need to understand that there are different interpretations of Srutis in the domain of Smritis (Please read the Puranas to understand what I am saying), and the results are different Sambradhayams. They are all equally valid. But when odds arise, one needs to say that they exist and move on, because those differences may never ever be resolved.

BTW - for Kali yuga - we don't have - VANA PRASTHA ASHRAMA -May be it is the foresight of the seers that there won't be any forest left worth inhabiting.

For kali yuga - Manu smriti is not relevant.

For Kali yuga - Aswamedha yagya is not relevant.

Again this are from traditional scholars advise. Meaning the likes of "Maha-periyava". We traditionalist only consider people who undergone "COMPLETE" training in "Guru-shisya" paramapara as scholars. The western oriented or indian academic scholars we don'recognise because normally they don't have the "Nithya Anushtana Balam" to gain insights.

Yes, the Yuga Dharma differs from yuga to yuga. But may I point out that there is a Manu Smriti that is written that is applicable to this Yuga also (please refer to Maha Periaval's writings about different Shastras). But the fact is that many of the Smritis that deal with culture and life are supposed to change based on the eternal Sanatana Dharma principles (this is what perhaps meant by Swami Vivekanada's utterences, cited by me in my last posting). Life conditions are forever changing and all the scriptures are there to serve the man! Not the other way around. After all the only end purpose of our scriptures is to attain Mukthi. Everything else has a social purpose and these are to be spelled out in our Smritis which are supposed to change according to times. Things change because of His laws of constant change. So, to be wedded to certain social customs in times where they do not apply is a folly. We need a new Manu Smriti that understands that Brahmins now work and make money in secular jobs, girls do not get married till after puberty, widows do not jump in to funeral pyres of their dead husbands, widows now can remarry (revival of an old custom that was forgotten for a long time), women can recite Vedas (again a revival), Brahmins can cross the oceans, etc., etc., The list goes on and on.

By the way, in Kali Yuga, it is firmly established by all the saints, that the corner stone for liberation is just chanting His nama. No other form of worship is required.

I agree partly with the Guru-Sishya code. But there is a difference between 'understanding' something for the sake of advancing one's soul versus understanding something for secular knowledge. The brain/mind understanding of anything can be done the same by both Guru-Sishya and secular education. What the secular knowledge does not provode is the internal path to Him. That is the true knowledge. All this knowledge about mantras, social syatems, science, creation theory etc. are not 'real' knowledge.

We do agree traditional scholars do approve some changes with time, but those changes are not fundamental changes but some superficial adjustments to meet the need of the hour.

So the specific complaints in this thread like, women rights on pyre lighting, mashanam entry, grha puja by a widow and vedic chanting falls under fundamental changes. Nobody has the authority but by "HE" alone is authority over it. Since you are believers I suggested to do tapas to "HIM" to
seek amendments.

What authority has differentiated the superficial versus the fundamental changes? Can you cite me that authority? "He' is the same guy who has his children living in today's world. He is compassion Himself. I do not believe that He would see our lives today and conclude that most of us are leading an Adharmic life.

Of course we guys have given the freedom of choice to bind to scriptures (the sacred thread symbolize that) or one can cut loose and act according to one's own wishes. I clearly addressed this already.

Again, free will does not mean abandoning any traditions that make sense today. If the cross thread binds one to follow all the traditions from Vedic times, let me ask you a simple personal question: Are you following ALL the traditions?

If the answer is yes, then I am wondering how you make your living and how you find time to post in this Forum.

If the answer is no, then how does one pick and choose what traditions to follow, that is defined by oneself? What is the difference between Brahmins working for money versus allowing a girl to light a funeral pyre?

It is warming, that you too share the same sentiments on Vedic Mantra.

On the comment...
Oh! so you felt that I, should not have handled in that way. Please help me - how best I could have conveyed it. Since you are very articulate I seek your help in it.

What I wanted to say is that before any crisis - there is an ample of time left to foresee the event coming and for preventive action.

It is in the spirit of defending the Shastrigals and Shastra only I questioned, beacuse the complaints are against them. Does that mean I've no empathy?

Please put yourself in the shoes of Shastrigal, how best you would have handled it? I know it is hard for you, you are too quick to throw shastra away, but give a try. Remember now you are shastrigal who follows the words of the scripture.

We are all human. Empathy arises out of that basic natural dharma. We can not do certain things in the hour of a dire need by a poor person who is in shock and dismay. The answer is not to ask why one did not properly plan, but to assist. I suspect the Shastrigal might have found a different way. But to have walked away - this is what I have said as inhuman. If you were in that Shastrigal's shoes (or bare feet), and if you have walked away so, yes, you also would have lacked humanity and empathy.

There are times in life, one can do the 'proper' thing, but then there are times when one should do the 'right' thing. And, in my opinion, the Shastrigal did not do the 'right' thing. So, in my opinion, he has incurred for himself a huge dose of Paapam.

Grace - This is definetly alien character to me , Many say I'm too blunt and open. But I don't think that I can learn this from you. You are like me, you too are blunt. I hope you agree with me on this.

I do not agree that you are without grace. One can be both gracious and blunt (straight forward).

Pranams
MM
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Pranams,
KRS
 
Mr KRS

On Shastrigal position - How can you assume that he is going to walk away? I read from what is written is this. She insists in doing the pyre lit, which she can, after all who can stop, it is her free will .

But please don't expect shastrigal to guide her. It is not at all found in practice ,tradition or in our much respected shastra for this kind of act. he can be a guide only with respect to what he learned. How can you miss this point.

He has to take a firm stance , whatever may be the dire situation, BECAUSE he has no means to help. He didn't walk away from what I read from the post. It is your assumptions.
For the shastrigals from their experience knows there will be some male members forth coming to do the act.

If you need some authority to classify fundamental and superficial changes - please don't converse with guys like us do it proffessionelly - Call for Veda Sathas with all the panditas who dedicated their life even in the time of extreme hardship to preserve Vedas (hope you beleive there will be atleast some souls good enough in our tradition to gather) - put forth the ideas and necessiate the changes.



If you have no belief on good souls from our tradition - do tapas and necessiate the changes with GOD.

Third way follow your own free-will and don't make any complaints against shastras. My earnest request

You please address my points and THEN expect that I address yours or else please don't waste your precious time.

Pranams (Hope you know the meaning of this word)
malgova.mango

P.S

(My position I clearly stated in some of the posts - I call myself a MLECCHA - even The title "Psedo Brahmin" given by our friend , I prouldy wear has a crown on my head, atleast in the title the word "brahmin " is affixed. That doesn't mean I can have a word for what I believe and yearn for. Simply my inability to follow the discipline to various factors doesn't mean that I can't show respect and speak for the high discipline set forth in the Vedas)
 
Dear Sri malgova.mango Ji,

As usual, my response is in 'blue'.

malgova.mango said:
Mr KRS

On Shastrigal position - How can you assume that he is going to walk away? I read from what is written is this. She insists in doing the pyre lit, which she can, after all who can stop, it is her free will .

But please don't expect shastrigal to guide her. It is not at all found in practice ,tradition or in our much respected shastra for this kind of act. he can be a guide only with respect to what he learned. How can you miss this point.

He has to take a firm stance , whatever may be the dire situation, BECAUSE he has no means to help. He didn't walk away from what I read from the post. It is your assumptions.
For the shastrigals from their experience knows there will be some male members forth coming to do the act.

Again, there is only one answer. A human being acts per his natural dharma as a human being. If the answer is not provided by the Shastras, he acts as a human being and do the best he can.

If you need some authority to classify fundamental and superficial changes - please don't converse with guys like us do it proffessionelly - Call for Veda Sathas with all the panditas who dedicated their life even in the time of extreme hardship to preserve Vedas (hope you beleive there will be atleast some souls good enough in our tradition to gather) - put forth the ideas and necessiate the changes.

If you have no belief on good souls from our tradition - do tapas and necessiate the changes with GOD.

Third way follow your own free-will and don't make any complaints against shastras. My earnest request

You please address my points and THEN expect that I address yours or else please don't waste your precious time.

Sri malgova.mango Ji, these types of Forums are there for laymen like you and me to come and discuss various points. Now, when you comment on certain topics it is natural for questions to arise, and I would think that you have enough intellectual background to back up what you state here.

Now, if you can not do that, because you learnt it from your Guru or from hearsay, please state that. If I were you, whenever you make a statement of opinion here, may be you should put a disclaimer that you can not really back up your statements through citing our scriptures. This will inform people like me not to ask for such citations. And I would have definitely not spent my time, trying to substantiate my views.

Pranams (Hope you know the meaning of this word)
Well, if this is not a slight I don't know what is!
malgova.mango

P.S

(My position I clearly stated in some of the posts - I call myself a MLECCHA - even The title "Psedo Brahmin" given by our friend , I prouldy wear has a crown on my head, atleast in the title the word "brahmin " is affixed. That doesn't mean I can have a word for what I believe and yearn for. Simply my inability to follow the discipline to various factors doesn't mean that I can't show respect and speak for the high discipline set forth in the Vedas)
Dear Sri malgova.mango Ji, you seem to have been offended at the personal question I posed in my last posting. I asked that question, not to offend you. But to illustrate a point. Almost 90 plus percent of the Brahmins today are not following the traditions and life as prescribed by the Shastras. All brahmins today, who know about this, yearn to live in times when the vedic life was, we are told, perfect. And, most of us, I believe want to live a dharmic life. We are all bewildered, for example, when we are told that such and such thing is not possible because of shastras, and then see the very people who say those things violate the edicts of those same shastras. So, who represents the yearning back to our 'vedic' life? Those of us, who may be following 30% of such prescriptions, or those of us who follow anything less than that? What gives the authority to those 30 percenters to preach to the 20 percenters, on the efficacy of following traditions and shastras? Are we not all in this non conformance soup together?

What makes you think that the likes of you are the only custodians of our scriptures and shastras? The only difference between your stance and mine is that, you want to apply the 'vedic life' principles to today's life, whether that life fits us today or not. You think that through discipline we should all go back to that life, even though you yourself are not living that life. I think that based on the differences between the Yuga dharmas, today's folks do not have the wherewithal to follow the 'vedic life' as prescribed and so, by custom, we should have a new 'modern dharma' founded on our Vedic concepts.

Remember, Maha Periaval never said that such an updating can not take place. He only said that He, as a head of a time honoured Sri Matham with specific Sambradhayams can not do it.

Pranams (I think I know the meaning),
KRS
Click to expand...
 
Sri KRS

This is what is called Jalpa-Vadam - ADAMANCY in English. Neverthless I'll try one last chance to reason with you.

The human being(sastrigal) also happens to be a proffessional - Like any proffessionel he follows a code of conduct to perform his job.

If the person (kartha) don't want to act as per the code of conduct or the code doesn't show any solutions for his/her case. He/she has the choice, he/she jolly well don't seek the advise of the proffession, simply acts according to mano dharma. There is a solution there.

But if he/she wants the proffessional advise then jolly well respect the code of conduct. he/she jolly well understand that the proffessional has no authority to change the codes and the proffessional is also unable to help in the way the kartha seek. For he don't know the means of help in that way - Do you recognise that?

First you told that I'm " devoid of humanity" , Now you accuse the Shastrigal. My earnest request please repeatedly consider before calling names or blaming others. "Varthaia Kottitta Alla mudiyathu".- Words that fell can't be taken back

But from a "Fundamentalist" comment, you have said that I 've some grace. You have come a long way or I've improved myself a lot. So there is still a faint hope between us for communication.

For

Regards
MM
 
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Dear malgova.mango Ji,

My comments stem from the fact that Sri N. has narrated that even when the brother of the wife was proposed to perform the rites, it was first refused. Why was it so?

I understand what the code says and what the professional limitations of a Shastrigal is. But it seems to me you are putting emphasis on this part and not enough on the humane part. Even for the professional part, it seems odd that our religion, as complete as it is in its evolution, would not have had the contingency covered somewhere.

But the first thought occurring to the Shastrigal, when a solution was offered was to say 'no', and then it was accepted.

I totally understand your position and I hope you understand mine. All my statements were uttered in earnest and I stand by them. And they were not meant to hurt anyone's feelings but to state the truth, based on the stated facts.

Pranams,
KRS

malgova.mango said:
Sri KRS

This is what is called Jalpa-Vadam - ADAMANCY in English. Neverthless I'll try one last chance to reason with you.

The human being(sastrigal) also happens to be a proffessional - Like any proffessionel he follows a code of conduct to perform his job.

If the person (kartha) don't want to act as per the code of conduct or the code doesn't show any solutions for his/her case. He/she has the choice, he/she jolly well don't seek the advise of the proffession, simply acts according to mano dharma. There is a solution there.

But if he/she wants the proffessional advise then jolly well respect the code of conduct. he/she jolly well understand that the proffessional has no authority to change the codes and the proffessional is also unable to help in the way the kartha seek. For he don't know the means of help in that way - Do you recognise that?

First you told that I'm " devoid of humanity" , Now you accuse the Shastrigal. My earnest request please repeatedly consider before calling names or blaming others. "Varthaia Kottitta Alla mudiyathu".- Words that fell can't be taken back

But from a "Fundamentalist" comment, you have said that I 've some grace. You have come a long way or I've improved myself a lot. So there is still a faint hope between us for communication.

For

Regards
MM
Click to expand...
 
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Dear Sri KRS!

Please read the post once again carefully, It is not like what you preceived.

I understand or preceive that being in the faraway land for close to 4 decades you may have difficulty in precieving the narration. If that's the case please be open about it.

Just my preceptions...
I'm much relieved seeing your reply, I expected the worst part from you. But this reply is neither worst nor best. Somewhere in the middle. (the "worst" and "best" according to how I preceive only...)

Pranams
malgova.mango
 
A small question/comment. I would lile to hear from Mr.N. he had started this whole fireball of a discussion with his passionate remarks and questions. what is ur opinion on all those issues? u had raised many a thot provoking questions over which people are going at each other like Ali-Frazier. I would like to hear ur opinions/answers to those excellent questions that u have raised. what would be ur answers?
 
Dear malgova.mango Ji,

Please understand that I am not condemning all of the Shastrigals. Only the action of one, based on Sri N.'s narration.

Thank you for understanding somewhat my position.

As I said before, we are all in this together. We should be able to agree to disagree, amicably. If either of us relegate the other as irrelevant, based on some of our past actions, deemed by either of us as outside the bounds (as some have done in this Forum), then we are surely shrinking our already small population and that does not do any good to our community.

Again, we should look at our community as comprising of all brahmins, from TN, irrespective of their philosophical and sambradhaya outlooks.

If we do that, we would acheive our unity, at least where all the Iyers, Iyengars, Madhvas, Chozhias, Vadams, Brahacharnams, Thengalais, Vadagalais and God knows what other partitions that seperate us will be united.

Is this too much to ask?

Pranams,
KRS
 
Dear Sri KRS

You have stated, you understand the codes, if that is so - how you have missed a vital point in the narration as stated by Sri N, that's why I asked you to re-read so that if you have missed that point in case. Before judging any incident, this kind of flippancy should be avoided.

In that particular case , the shastrigal has shown some very good judgement and handled the situation quite proffessionely and humanely, He should be commended and not condemned, that's not fair in any sense. This should be too obvious to you as you said you understand the codes. At first I thought may be you are not well-versed with the codes, but when you said you are familiar with the codes - I'm completely puzzled...... I couldn't understand your position. That's why I'm asking pointed questions to understand you. Till now I didn't get any clear cut answer on that.

On the other issues - No I've never imagined that you are condemning all shastrigals - please don't mistake me.

On bringing unity among us - Your intention is honourable. But let's leave that now for a while till we sort the Shastrigal issue. As I suggested we go one by one, both of us won't feel that the other skipped or by-passed or couldn't cover the issue for lack of time, understanding , etc.. . Also the communications will be clear and open. Time will also be worth spent. Agreed?

Pranams
MM
 
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