The Christian assault on Hindu India

[Ramaa]

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Blasphemy of Hindu Gods by peace-loving Christians

By: V Sundaram
Friday, 19 September, 2008 , 03:08 PM
After a mass Hindu rebellion in Jammu and Orissa, we are seeing a mass uprising of Hindus in Karnataka against the illegal conversions through inducements, force and fraud let loose against the Hindus by the Christian missionaries in Mangalore, Udupi, and Chikmagalur Districts.

All these troubles keep on arising every now and then only because the Christian minorities (very much like the Muslim minorities) are very confident all the time that they can fully depend upon the political support of the anti-Hindu Congress party and other equally anti-Hindu secular parties like the RJD, SP, LJS, DMK, CPI, CPI(M) etc. The fact of the matter is that neither the Christian conversion agencies nor the Islam-embracing, Christianity-coveting and Hindu-baiting Congress and other secular parties nor the main line English media (both print and electronic) want to understand the simple fact that our Constitution sanctions ‘freedom’ only for the practice and propagation of any faith or religion and certainly not induced or forced ‘conversion’.

This fact was asserted by the Supreme Court of India, way back in a landmark verdict in 1977 (Stanislaus vs. State of Madhya Pradesh, AIR 1977 SC 908). The Supreme Court decided that Article 25 of the Indian Constitution (the freedom of conscience and free profession, practice and propagation of religion) is not an absolute right, unlike some other fundamental rights like protection of life and liberty (Article 21) and right against exploitation (Article 23).

The Supreme Court decided that Article 25 is subject to public order, morality and health and to the other provisions of Part III of the Constitution. In the same judgement, Supreme Court also laid down the law to the effect when it said, ‘the propagation of one’s religion could not impinge on the ‘freedom of conscience’ of other citizens’.

With elections (both Assembly and Lok Sabha) round the corner, the Congress Party after sweeping the polls in Uttar Pradesh, Himachal Pradesh, Uttaranchal, Gujarat and Karnataka, wants to garner all the minority votes in Karnataka in the coming Lok Sabha elections. Likewise it wants to garner minority votes in Orissa. That is why in a politically shameless manner, the Centre has issued a strict warning to the government of Karnataka and the government of Orissa over the recent attacks on Churches and Christian community in these two States.

Recently the Hindus living in Mangalore, Udupi and Chikmagalur District of Dakshina Karnataka have risen in open revolt against the fraudulent methods of conversion being resorted to by some Christian Agencies. In these areas several churches have been vandalised by the agitating and provoked Hindu activists. The Karnataka Chief Minister and the Home Minister of Karnataka have made it very clear that the Hindus of Dakshin Karnataka have been unduly provoked by the publication of highly objectionable anti-Hindu evangelical literature on the one hand and fraudulent methods of illegal conversion on the other.

There is no doubt whatsoever that there has been an organised blasphemy of Hindu Gods and Goddesses by Christian Missionary Agencies and Christians which has deeply wounded the Hindus of Karnataka. The pseudo-secular mafia of mass media in India – both print and electronic – have been presenting only one-sided, untruthful, and distorted version of the Hindu-Christian clashes in Mangalore. These very unscrupulous anti-Hindu men in the media—nay despicable vermin –had predicted resounding Congress victories in the Gujarat and Karnataka elections. The common people of Gujarat and Karnataka summarily rejected not only Sonia and her Congress Party but also the vicious anti-Hindu men in the media.

I am presenting below the vital facts relating to the blasphemous anti-Hindu literature produced by the missionary and evangelical agencies in Karnataka:

1. First of all, this is not a case of Hindu-Christian clash at all. It is nothing but a public attack on NEW LIFE — a Christian sect that is known for irresponsible aggressive proselytisation. New Life had distributed several pamphlets maligning Hindu Gods in a language that can only be termed Crass, Vulgar and abusive. The UPA government in New Delhi will never issue a warning to such anti-Hindu and anti-national Christian organisations engaged in nefarious conversion work in different parts of India. Sonia Gandhi, Man Mohan Singh, Shivraj Patil and all the Congressmen would only talk against the Sangh Parivar!

(contd.)

 

[Ramaa]

contd..

I am giving below a short list of abuses against Hindu Gods and Goddesses from one such book - SATYA DARSHINI - distributed by the missionaries of New Life all over Karnataka and more particularly Dakshina Karnataka. This book is in Kannada language. It is understood that this book was printed in Hyderabad in Andhra Pradesh for large-scale distribution in Karnataka:

a)Urvashi - the daughter of Lord Vishnu - is a prostitute. Vashitha is the son of this prostitute. He in turn married his own Mother. Such a degraded person is the Guru of the Hindu God Rama, (page 48)

b)When Krishna himself is wallowing in darkness of hell, how can he enlighten others? Since Krishna himself is a shady character, there is a need for us to liberate his misled followers, (page 50)

c)It was Brahma himself who kidnapped Sita. Since Brahma, Vishnu and Shiva were themselves the victims of lust, it is a sin to consider them as Gods, (page 39)

d)When the Trinity of Hinduism (Brahma, Vishnu and Shiva) are consumed by lust and anger, how can they liberate others. Their projection as Gods is nothing but a joke (page 39)

e)When Vishnu asked BRAHMA to commit a sin, he immediately did so. How can such a ‘evil Brahma’ be a Creator of this Universe? How is it possible for both the sinner and the entity, which provoked the sin to be gods? (page 39)

f)God, please liberate the sinful people of India who are worshipping false Gods that believe in the pleasures of illicit ‘Vyabichari’ relationships. (Page 39).

2.All the 16 incidents of violence that took place were not attack on Churches. In fact, unauthorized prayer halls were attacked where the blasphemous pamphlets of the kind detailed above were distributed and aggressive proselytisation was taking place. These 16 incidents were not localised but took place across three districts of Mangalore, Udupi and Chikmagalur.

3.The only place where attacks took place apart from New Life Prayer Halls was at a small prayer hall in the premises of Milagres Church in Mangalore, where some miscreants had damaged a Jesus idol. The VHP and the Bajrang Dal have condemned the attack at this place. Following this incident, a Christian mob gathered and the situation went out of control as the mob started pelting stones and disrupting traffic. The police was forced to intervene and this resulted in unsavory violence.

4.Further during the past two days from 15 September to 17 September 2008, it has to be noted that we are not having Hindu-Christian clashes at all. It will be more appropriate to call it ‘Christian-Police’ clashes since the Christians holed up in Churches have engaged themselves in pelting of stones and disruption of traffic. The Police were forced to enter the Churches to clear the mob and they found to their horror and surprise, arms inside some of the Churches.

5.Incidents of Stabbing were reported in around four or five places across Mangalore district. In fact, an activist belonging to Shri Ram Sena was stabbed which led to a bandh call by Shri Ram Sena - a Hindu outfit that is not connected to Sangh Parivar.

6.The VHP and the Bajrang Dal have condemned the desecration of Jesus idol at the prayer hall adjacent to the Milagres Church in Mangalore. They have also clarified that they are not against the Catholic faith and the Churches. However, they have clarified that the public outcry would continue as long as illicit conversion activities and blasphemy of Hindu Gods take place.

7.Even the Kandhamal murder—which involved the killing of Hindu monk Swami Lakshmananda by missionaries - seems to have caste a shadow on this incident since the general public seems to have seen through Christian aggression.

8.It may be recalled that there was a public outcry against illegal prayer halls in Davanagere district last week. In that case, the administration had closed the unauthorised prayer halls that were mushrooming in the region.

The above facts were taken to the notice of Krishna Palimar, Karnataka Minister In Charge of Mangalore District who had convened a ‘Peace Meeting’ at the PWD Office in Mangalore on 17 September 2008. Magesh Rao I A S, Deputy Commissioner of Mangalore District also participated in the meeting.

Representatives of Christian and Missionary Organisations and Hindu Organisations participated at that meeting. Dr. Puranic, VHP President and RSS Sanghachalak of Mangalore District brought out the above facts at that meeting. Both the VHP and RSS representatives categorically clarified one point to everyone present at that meeting in this short and succinct manner: ‘The time-honoured religious feelings of millions of Hindus have been deeply wounded by the blasphemous anti-Hindu literature published and distributed on a large scale by New Life and many other Christian agencies in Karnataka. The Hindus of Karnataka would never permit these agencies to carry on their anti-social and anti-national work of fraudulent conversion, in violation of the Laws of our Constitution and the other Laws of the Land. So long as they continue to indulge in these anti-Hindu and anti-national conversion activities, there will be no peace or public tranquility in Karnataka’.

Conversion is a form of religious and cultural violence. Jesus was the first religious teacher in history to threaten those, who did not agree with him, with eternal damnation. This is the only original idea that he contributed to the world’s vast body of religious thought, and in two millennia it has destroyed nations and whole civilizations and caused THOMAS JEFFERSON (whom Abishek Singhvi would love to describe as belonging to the Sangh Parivar in accordance with the dictates of his High Command today!) to declare, ‘The Christian God is cruel, vindictive, capricious and unjust’.

(The writer is a retired IAS officer)
http://newstodaynet.com/col.php?section=20&catid=33

 

[happyhindu]

Violence in any form needs to be condemned:
http://www.theindiancatholic.com/orissa.asp

What is this? Is this what hindusim is about? Mindless senseless violence?

Please see the hope in the eyes of the nuns of the Missionaries of Charity (3rd pic).

 

[Desi]

Dear Admin and the Tamil Brahmin Friends,

It is a distressing time for the Hindus who are being attacked left and right using the secular law of the land. It is a fact of life that people do retaliate when attacked. Hindus are known to do so, so abysmally slowly after taking the beating for a very long time. They are no match to the Muslims and Christians in this regard. We do know that it is the Christians who never show their other cheek would always pretend to be victims and advise us to show the other cheek. They are ably aided and abetted by international proselytizers and the papacy. Believe me there is an international conspiracy to turn India into a Christian nation. Dr. Swamy in his famous book "Hindus under Seige" has warned that by the year 2040 the Hindus would become a minority in this country.

We Hindus faced assault meekly all along and there are fifth columns who advocate us to abandon our dharma and even join Christianity or Islam as one way of avoiding clash.

I am afraid that our struggle for survival as a community has perhaps just begun after having let the inimical forces have their way all along. I wish we had a bad dream and it would go away but the fact of life is that it is not so. We may all have to make a stand as each generation is called upon to do in life like our forefathers did against Islamic invasion and colonial aggression. Ours is a time to make a stand against Christian conversionists.

It is therefore important that we should know who is on whose side. Let us tell the detractor (who seem to wear two hats) who has subtly been advocating for the enemy all along: "Tell us your friends and we will tell you who you are." This is a blog for the Tamil Brahmins who are a Hindu entity and whose survival depends on the survival of Hindu dharma.

Friends, please wake up.

 

[KRS]

Dear Desi Ji,

If you are talking about me (I am assuming you are), please have the courtesy to talk to me directly, and in the process show me the 'two hats' I am wearing! Yes, this a blog for decent, thoughtful Tamil Brahmins, who do not buy all this hate mongering.

Yes, there are missionaries in India whose 'mission' is to convert. Yes, there is a Jihadi problem rooted in a section of the Muslim population. No right thinking individual will think that the heinous acts committed by these groups should not be condemned. But to denigrate all the people belonging to two largest religions of the world is senseless. That is not Hinduism. Killing and burning innocent victims, be it Hindus, Muslims, Christians, be it any human being, in the name of retaliation or religion should be condemned by all. So what is your position? That the burning and killings in Orissa are different? What are you talking about? What is your definition of Hindu Dharma that you and some others screech about non stop? What is it? Hindu Dharma is not unique. If our fore fathers found a Hindu Dharma, then it is human dharma.

If you want to discuss these things openly, I am game.

But of course you were not mentioning me in your posting, please disregard this posting.

Regards,
KRS

It is therefore important that we should know who is on whose side. Let us tell the detractor (who seem to wear two hats) who has subtly been advocating for the enemy all along: "Tell us your friends and we will tell you who you are." This is a blog for the Tamil Brahmins who are a Hindu entity and whose survival depends on the survival of Hindu dharma.

Friends, please wake up.

 

[KRS]

Dear Kamakshi Ji,

Yes, I am dreaming on. My motto in life is:

Row, row, row your boat gently down the stream,
Merrily, merrily, merrily, life is but a dream!

Regards,
KRS

Dream on!

 

[Ramaa]

Modi raps UPA for Orissa, Karnataka advisory




IANS
19 Sep 2008 06:13:00 PM IST
NEW DELHI: Gujarat Chief Minister Narendra Modi Friday came down heavily on the central government for issuing an advisory to the Karnataka and Orissa governments on preventing violence against the minorities in the two states, terming the move an attempt at “vote bank politics”.“Where was the central government when Hindi speaking people were killed in Assam and innocent farmers were killed in Singur? Why did not they invoke Article 355 (of the constitution) in these states?” Modi asked.“The central government has done this to appease Madam (Sonia Gandhi). This is vote bank politics,” Modi told reporters after inaugurating a climate change workshop here.The central government had Thursday issued an advisory under Article 355 of the constitution to the Orissa and Karnataka governments that it would intervene if they do not immediately control violence against the Christian community.Modi said the centre has no strategy to tackle the growing terror menace in the country and wanted to "divert attention" by warning non-Congress ruled states.“The Supreme Court rejected the centre's IMDT act (Illegal Migrant - Determination by Tribunal - Act), saying that it is encouraging migration to India. Taking a cue from it, the central government must stop Bangladeshi migration, which is a threat to the country,” he said.Meanwhile, the All India Christian Council Friday welcomed the central government's initiative to curb violence against the community.

 

[Desi]

A sample of the international conspiracy to hijack Hindus from Hinduism and turn the country into Christianity.

Mohammed Shariff & Jayadevan P K |ENS
17 Sep 2008 04:57:00 AM IST
BANGALORE: The roots of New Life Church, which was targeted by Hindu activists in Karnataka for allegedly being involved in conversions, can be traced to the USA with headquarters in Colorado Springs.The New Life Church is a non-denominational Evangelical Protestant Christian church with subsidiaries in India and other South East Asian countries.According to sources, in India, New Life Foundation, inspired by Ted Haggard, is active in Karnataka, Kerala and Tamil Nadu.Pastor Haggard, who founded New Life in 1984 in the United States, however, had to quit the Church a couple of years ago for allegedly buying drugs and hiring a male prostitute for a massage.Sources said the church in India has borrowed literature from the New Life Church in the US.However, sources from New Life Churches in India said they have no connection with the New Life Church chain in the US.Joshua, chief instructor, Ministries, New Life Church, told to this website's newspaper, "U M Samuel and his wife Somi began the chain in Mangalore, Karnataka in 1980s and then spread it to Bangalore later. The church has ministries working in Bangalore, Mangalore, Udupi and has a training centre in Kamanahalli.The operations of these branches are funded by its institutions in US, UK and Denmark" "The church does not come under conventional churches, it does not work under any diocese, and it has good relations with high ranking clergy of all sects. The church preaches Catholic Christianity and undertakes missionary work," said Joshua.

 

[spectator]

I am new and my hello to all of you!

There are very good postings on Economics, politics, religion and literature. I like them all.

I am like most people, I like to listen!

I like lively discussions in this forum. I think it is getting somewhat personal sometimes.

Conversion is a hot topic. India has had a long history of attacks from other religions especially the Muslim and Christian. If Hindus don't resist then it will become Indonesia, Pakistan, Bangladesh and what have you.

When things pass argument stage then there is violence. Condemning both sides is confusing. It is equally emotional not logical.

Do you thing given our long history, people will say 'you are right and let's stop it?'

What will stop the violence is an acceptable solution.

Something triggers and there is a chain reaction. Could we face this as a fact? In that case we would come to a right conclusion viz. the Christians should stop converting us into their religion. If they think as Christians it is their birthright to convert then they have to be ready to face the consequence. I don't think there is any compromise in it.

I think this is logical.

The solution is to ban the conversions. Will the minorities and the Congress agree to it?

 

[Ramaa]

According to the U.S. and other Christian nations, RELIGIOUS FREEDOM means right of the Christian missionaries to convert the Hindus.

US slams Gujarat, Rajasthan anti-conversion laws
Saturday, 20 September , 2008, 12:07

http://sify.com/news/international/fullstory.php?id=14762713

Washington: The US has criticised the Gujarat and Rajasthan state governments for enacting or amending "anti-conversion" laws while acknowledging that the central government generally respected freedom of religion.

"The (Indian) constitution provides for freedom of religion, and the national government generally respected this right in practice," noted the US State Department in its Annual Report on International Religious Freedom

"However, some state and local governments, including those of Gujarat and Rajasthan, enacted or amended "anti-conversion" laws," said the congressionally mandated report covering the period July 1, 2007 to June 30, 2008.

"Nations must not only make peace with their neighbours, they must make peace with themselves, and that means respecting diversity, and protecting it in law," said US Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice releasing the report on Friday.

The report designated eight countries - Burma, China, North Korea, Iran, Sudan, Eritrea, Saudi Arabia and Uzbekistan - as "Countries of Particular Concern" (CPCs) that have "engaged in or tolerated particularly severe violations of religious freedom" during the reporting period.

As "promotion of religious freedom for all is central to American identity and a core objective of US foreign policy," the report said it primarily focused on documenting the actions of governments that repress religious expression, persecuted believers, and tolerate violence against religious minorities.

"Limits on proselytisation and the ability to choose one's faith remained a concern," the report said accusing some countries such as Malaysia, Greece and Israel of continuing to enforce laws that curb peaceful proselytising activities.

"Other countries either passed or introduced anti-conversion laws. Six of 28 states in India have passed anti-conversion laws; the sixth did so during the reporting period," it said.

In the case of India, the report acknowledged that the vast majority of citizens of every religious group lived in peaceful coexistence.

"However, there were reports of organised societal attacks against minority religious groups. State police and enforcement agencies often did not act swiftly enough to effectively counter societal attacks," it said.

"In Orissa, which is governed by a coalition government that includes the Bharatiya Janata Party (BJP) and Biju Janata Dal (BJD), Hindu extremists attacked Christian villagers and churches in the Kandhamal district over the Christmas holidays," the report alleged.

Extremists damaged approximately 100 churches and Christian institutions and destroyed 700 Christian homes, which led villagers to flee to nearby forests. The violence affected 22 Christian-owned businesses, it said. Numerous cases were in the courts, including cases in connection with the 2002 Gujarat violence, the 1984 anti-Sikh riots, and attacks against Christians.

Some extremists continued to view ineffective investigation and prosecution of attacks as a signal that they could commit such violence with impunity, the State Department report suggested.

Some non-governmental organisations (NGOs) reported that communal violence against religious minorities was part of a larger Hindu nationalist agenda and corresponded with ongoing state electoral politics, the report said.

There were terrorist attacks at or near places of worship during the reporting period, including a coordinated series of bombings in market and temple areas in Jaipur, Rajasthan in May 2008 and an explosion at the main mosque in Hyderabad in May 2007.

These attacks reflect a soft target focus and appear designed to foment communal violence, the State Department suggested.

 

[Ramaa]

From my inbox.

Dear Friends,

(This is what went through my mind when I read
45,000 Christian educational institutions shut down to protest Orissa violence).

The slow effect of christian schools and minority controlled media could convert or already converting the whole population of bhArath.

Did any of you think what these thousands of educational institutions do to our country? Did any of you ever think what they already did to our country? They can turn every thing around in their favor in few tears. In fact that is what they did and that is what they are doing. They are slowly and surely changing every thing around for the benefit of the so-called minorities. The seeding they did is definitely working in their favor. From the time they started English education to now, {In actuality, I will say it started even before that, may be from the time Alexander the aggressor came to our land} the attitude of every one who went to those schools changed. Majority of them are now in one way or other against or indifferent to our culture and our Dharmam. Some knowingly and much more unknowingly. That is why we see all this terrorism and all this conversion and the "don’t care” attitude of the “so-called Hindus" to all these events all-around our land, the akhandabhAratham, bhAratvarSh, bhAratham, bhArath or India or what ever you may call it. It is a kind of slow poison being injected into every one who goes to those schools. All except a few get poisoned by that. There are only very few who can and did get that poison out.


Now, this slow poisoning or you could say conversion is being done by the media also. That is why they tried to control the media in bhAratham. Practically they are controlling it now. That is why you don’t see the reports on burning of trains, the humiliation of our culture, and the degradation of our way of living, the humiliation of our spiritual leaders and/or the ridiculing of our spirituality in them. But you see the reactions to it in them. In fact you see exaggerated reports and even falsified reports on it in them. You can even see ridiculing of our spirituality and our spiritual leaders in it. Just look at the advertisements. A lot of them ridicule our culture, our spirituality and our spiritual leaders, our language and every thing we have. A lot of TV programs are also the tools of propagation of these negative stereo typing and ridicules. By this they are also indirectly promoting other cultures and preparing every mind for the conversion industry. For them it is a well planned operation being executed and for us it is just respecting of all faiths. {But practically it is accepting and promoting of all faiths.} This not only happens in the media controlled by the foreign multi nationals,, christians, muslims and other minorities but also in the media owned and operated by some spiritual organization of our land.

Just a thought came across my mind when I read the above message and I thought I share it with you all.

Thanks to all.

Udhayabhanu

 

[KRS]

Dear Spectator Ji,

Welcome! And thank you for your thoughtful comments. The noice about conversions has grown so loud, that the truth is shouted down. Please allow me to describe what is going on:

1. First of all, in India currently, the conversion issue involves only Christians. Muslims are not actively protelyzing.

2. ChristianS who are actively protelyzing in India belong to the 'missionary' denominations, mainly funded from the U.S. Most of the mainstream protestant denominations do not believe in active protelyzation. While Catholics want to 'harvest' millions of souls in the 'dark' continent of Asia, they are beaten to the punch by these Protestant Missionaries.

3. There is an active debate going on the World Council of Churches about Christ's pronouncement where the basis of this conversion effort is rooted from the Bible: Christ replies to Doubting Thomas on his question 'Oh, Lord, how would I know what is the right path to Him (God)' by saying 'The path to my father is through me'. This one statement is taken to mean that Christ has said that the path to salvation is only through him. All the missionaries take this statement to be an instruction to them that it would be good works if they 'save' the heathens' souls by making them believe in Christ.

4. But more and more churches are coming to interpret Christ's words to indicate only his affirmation to Thomas, not for the Universe.

5. So, on the face of what the missionaries are doing, they believe that they are doing God's work. In fact, over a long time, they have recognized that they have little chance to convert the higher caste Hindus.

6. Over time, money has become a part of this effort and so, many disadvantaged Hindus (dalits for example) are easily induced to convert en masse; because religion does not anymore play any useful role in their lives. Here, I submit that we as Hindus are responsible for reducing them to such a state.

7. It is also easier to make a whole village/hamlet convert because the heads of these villages/hamlets decide and the community follows - the fishermen and the adivasis are the prime examples of these types of conversion.

8. I applaud the effort of people like the Swamiji who was murdered in Orissa, because his mission was to communicate to the target people how Hinduism is relevant to their lives.

9. There is a Federal law in the books against 'compusory' conversion and the Gujarat law which disallows conversion by inducement has over the past 5 years had only 3 complaints.

10. Among all the major religions, only Islam specifically disallows conversion to any other religion - it is apostasy, and is punishable by death. All other 'enlightened' religions allow conversion.

11. We should make sure that a person should be able to embrace any religion he/she wants to adopt according to his/her mental/cultural/individual liking. Hinduism in particular has no strictures against such conversions. The only issue is 'forced' conversions.

12. I think that if Hinduism is made relevant to all Hindus, then there will not be any conversions to any other religions, forced or induced, because Hinduism contains ALL the Truths contained in any other religion.

13. Religion is not just a dogma, but also based on how a person grows up in a specific cultural environment. Through various religious events in out lives, we come to identify with our religion; like Diwali etc. This is why a majority of us born in to any religion would think that our own religion is the best. This is the emotional part of the religion connected to each one of our souls. This is why all the arguments about which religion is 'superior' has no meaning.

14. Based on all the above, I hope, we in India, consistent with our tradition of tolerance and fair play would come to a proper conclusion about this issue, without killing each other. We all need to remember, that India is not just Hindus. India belongs to every one of us from all religions, and I hope we all have a stake in making sure that all of us live peacefully as we have done for ao long and treat each other as Indians first.

Jai Hind.

Regards,
KRS

I am new and my hello to all of you!

There are very good postings on Economics, politics, religion and literature. I like them all.

I am like most people, I like to listen!

I like lively discussions in this forum. I think it is getting somewhat personal sometimes.

Conversion is a hot topic. India has had a long history of attacks from other religions especially the Muslim and Christian. If Hindus don't resist then it will become Indonesia, Pakistan, Bangladesh and what have you.

When things pass argument stage then there is violence. Condemning both sides is confusing. It is equally emotional not logical.

Do you thing given our long history, people will say 'you are right and let's stop it?'

What will stop the violence is an acceptable solution.

Something triggers and there is a chain reaction. Could we face this as a fact? In that case we would come to a right conclusion viz. the Christians should stop converting us into their religion. If they think as Christians it is their birthright to convert then they have to be ready to face the consequence. I don't think there is any compromise in it.

I think this is logical.

The solution is to ban the conversions. Will the minorities and the Congress agree to it?

 

[happyhindu]

Dear Spectator-ji,

Am adding a few lines in addition to that of KRS-ji:

1) The issue of forced conversions come up because of the funds involved. Apart from conviction of faith, missionaries also feel obliged to harvest souls in order to show that funds have been well utilized.

2) Most missionaries aim to manage their own church. Since church planting can happen after some people have been converted, missionaries tend to go the way out to bring in as many people as possible; to make their dream of running their own church a reality.

3) India being a poor country, whereever foreign money is involved, there remains possibility of some amount of negative element getting involved in trying to control or be part of the fund flow. One cannot cast aspersions and say it definitely happens, but possibilities always exist.

4) Mostly, it is the protestant groups that are involved in large-scale conversions. The selfless attitude of some the catholic nuns and those of the Missionaries of Charity that i have met is admirable indeed.

5) Banning conversions, though feasible, may be perceived as persecution by some quarters; and may not help in the long term.

6) The root cause of all this seems to be poverty, lack of awareness abt hindusim and sense of belonging to it. While economic liberalization will take care of poverty, the sense of belonging needs to be rectified with all resources possible and available. Automatically, people will not have the inclination to convert.

7) However, one can never say anything with surety in matters of faith. Those that are inclined to convert due to sheer faith should be given their freedom.

 

[spectator]

Dear Friends,

I gave my opinion giving my reasons.

I do not expect everyone to endorse my opinion.

It won't even bother me if no one liked it either.

I do not wish to get involved with anyone on a one to one discussion.

I am afraid it could turn into a nightmare as is happening in this forum. Persons are denounced for holding a opinion and are hounded until he/she accepts that his/her opinion is wrong and is vehemently vilified and persecuted if he/she refuses to continue discussion.

I hope I have a right to give my opinion without being engaged into a discussion that turns out to be unpleasant as described above.

Believe me I do hold others have a right to their opinion even if it be contrary to mine.

However one cannot be compelled to agree to a opinion that he/she dislikes. This is just a forum not a legislature.

Having said this let me voice some more opinion of mine.

I gave my view that the only solution to ensure that no violence of any sort breaks out again is to ban conversion. Is there any other reasonable, viable and long-lasting alternative?

Some people like to lecture that Hindus mistreat 'Dalits' and that is the root cause and only Hindus have to be blamed.

Dalits are not liberated by conversion. We have seen lots of cases of same 'Dalit' revolt within Christianity too.

Those who blame the Hindus for conversion opt for a cop out.

Conversion is done by fraudulent methods of denigration of Hinduism, misinformation, coersion and enticement.

The root cause of the so called 'Dalit' persecution lies elsewhere in the colonial era and in following their footsteps. This is a separate topic not related to conversion. The so called 'Dalit' persecution is a miniscule part of conversion but is blown out of proportion by anti-Hindu forces and the secular media for reasons of their own advantage. Once again conversion is carried on by fraudulent methods of denigration of Hinduism, misinformation, coersion and enticement. Those who convert are part of the international conspiracy to destroy Hinduism and turn the country into Christian enclave. Bringing into picture some beautiful, hard-working and kind nuns is only to hijack our focus.

You and I as Hindus believe that every individual has a right to worship his/her Ishta Devatha. We therefore recognize that a Christian has a right to worship a Christian God and a Muslim to worship a Muslim God. Don't you think that they should in turn reciprocate that we Hindus have a right to worship Hindu Gods? Then why denigrate and condemn Hindu Gods? Then why mislead and entice Hindus to abandon their Gods to worship the Christian and Muslim Gods?

Friends, this is not a adventurous work of few bishops or mullahs. There is something more to it than meets the eye!

Conversion is not a birthright. A person has a right to his/her own salvation and not that of another. Such overbearing assumption is inimical to human rights to being undisturbed from one's own culture.

Violence takes place when the patience wears out.

Those who advise the victims not to indulge in violence have helped the perpetrators of victimisation. They want the Hindus to take the beating and resign to the fate. Don't you think such advisors are the most shameful people?

So they want to ban Bajrang Dal? Since they have not attacked the problem and brought about the solution, the violence might continue. What next?

Overthrow non-congress govts and bring president's rule? Do you know when the first united front government in 1967 headed by Ajoy Mukherjee of Bangla Congress (communists were part of the United Front) was illegally overthrown by Nehru, the result was that the Congress never ruled that state since then!

If the UPA which shamelessly went for coalition government with pro-Pakistani anti-national elements in Kashmir, ever decides to overthrow legitimately elected democratic governments then they would instead of being curbers of violence become the grave instigators of lawlessness and disorderliness in the country. They could have a resurrection in their hands. A very dangerous prospect indeed!

Or they can sagatiously ban conversion.

Could we expect that from an Italian born Catholic?

 

[Ramaa]

Secular activists ruining the chances of peace

MANGALORE, Sept 21, 2008: Various so called Secular and Human Rights activists have now started unleashing a barrage of words that has the potential of ruining the chances of long lasting peace and harmony in the city.

An array of "secular characters" starting from the former Chief Minister H.D. Kumaraswamy, his father H.D. Deve Gowda (who is also the former prime minister of India) former judge of Karnataka High Court M.F. Saldanha, film maker Mahesh Bhat and his followers in the Maharashtra Minority Commission, Teesta Setalvad, State minister for Wakf Arif Mohammad Khan, former state minority commission Chief Anwar Manippady, leaders of Karnataka Forum for Dignity and Komu Souharda Samithi and the pseudo secular characters from Congress party had attacked the peace pact executed by the Catholic Christians and Hindu organisations in the wake of the anti Christian sentiments and attacks on churches.

All these persons have criticised sections of the Catholic order, led by the Bishop of Mangalore Dr. Aloysius Paul DSouza and the VHP leader Prof. M.B. Puranik for signing a pact of peace. The criticism meted out by these leaders has put the peace process in Mangalore between the two communities into jeopardy despite the best intensions of the leaders of the two communities. These are the two major communities in Mangalore and any peace process if had to succeed in the district these two communities are a must in the given conditions.

Even Margeret Alva had complained about leaving out the protestant church out of the peace process. Teesta in her scathing remark on the "compromising" agreement with Hindutva groups with Catholic Church was nothing short of a compromise. She said "There can be no peace without justice. Throughout the history, sections from the victim community have been co-opted by the oppressor." Which was a characteristic of the fundamentalist. She did not spare the Catholic Church also. She termed as "opportunistic" and "lacking in character" the concessions made by the Catholic leadership.

In the meanwhile at a time when Karnataka was looking forward for some political stability to take forward its economic agenda of inviting foreign investors the Chief Minister B.S. Yeddyurappas concerns appear to be genuine. He said the disparaging language the so called secularists use against his government was nothing short of blaming the government for everything.

At a press conference in Bangalore on Sunday after the high level meeting Mr. Yeddyurappa said the rhetoric unleashed by the KFD and the Komu Souharda Vedike was uncalled for. His government was trying its maximum to bring order into the state but these elements have started unleashing a series of tirades against the government, which was a de-motivating factor the peace process.

He said he had told everything to the Governor of Karnataka Rameshwar Thakur about the "sustained and deep rooted conspiracy" played by some vested interests in the country against his government.
http://mangalorean.com/

 

[Ramaa]

Tribals protest remarks in translated Bible


IANS
22 Sep 2008 03:05:00 PM IST
RANCHI: Tribals in Jharkhand are up in arms against a recent Kuduk translation of the Bible, which exhorts people to destroy trees and places where they worship. The Bible Society of India has apologised for the translation and has promised to withdraw copies from the market.The Kendriya Sarna Samittee (KSS), an organisation of tribals, has announced it will burn the copies translated into Kuduk - one of the local tribal languages - if they are not withdrawn."Tribal are peace loving people. But if anyone insult our society we will not spare them," Ajay Tirkey, president of KSS, told IANS.He said: "The translated version of Bible is insulting the tribal people which we object.""Destroy the trees and Sarna (worship) places where tribal worship," said Tirkey, quoting from page number 230 of the translated Bible.After failing to meet governor Syed Sibte Razi to lodge their protest, KSS has now announced it will hit the streets and burn copies of the translated version.Apologising for the error in translation, Soma Bhaktar, secretary of Bihar and Jharkhand of Bible Society of India, said: "The translated version was published on request of a particular society. Before publishing the version we could not verify the facts. We will withdraw the books from bookstalls."The society had been in trouble earlier this year, following the publication of a book that purportedly insulted a local freedom fighter. The issue was raised in the state assembly.

​

The Bible seen in an exhibition.

 

[KRS]

Friends,

When people post in the Forum, it is not to 'legislate' but to make clear one's own position clearer and point out possible fallacies in some folks arguments, so that it would benefit the Forumites to make up their minds. Of course, any one can post something neutral and declare that no comments are welcome. I vividly remember one Sri Nacchinarkinyan being accused by some of the very posters here who said that it was not fair for him to shut out competing comments, because he declared so.

No one wants anyone to change their views if they do not want to, nor is it possible to do so. But if information is posted which is not the truth as I see it, I have every right to refute it. If folks do not want carry on the resulting discussion, they are more than welcome to move on, by saying that 'we agree to disagree', as I have said so many times.

Let us look at one of the above postings:

1. If we as Hindus do not think we have a 'dalit' problem and it was partly our creation, and look at this as something against Hindus, then what can one say? People who think that the 'dalits' are a creation of Muslims and the English, do not know the recorded evolution of our own culture over centuries.

2. No religion except one major one has punishment for converting on one's own free will. We allow various (mostly intellectuals) convert in to Hinduism, Christians in USA and elsewhere have allowed millions of their ranks to be converted in to Islam. I will defend anyone's inherent birth right to convert to any religion they wish. It is an individual freedom issue. This is why a blanket anti conversion law is wrong. The freedom of an individual in any free society to adopt to any religion is his/her own damn business.

3. If we are talking about 'forced' conversions, then I agree that it is wrong. But then there is already a Central Govt. law against it on the books in India.

4. This whole thing is a canard. As I have said, for people of faith, conversion is unthinkable. So, if some people are converting, one should ask why? If someone is converting because of money, that means that they are not Hindus to begin with.

5. Any attempt by any other religion to deliberately denigrate and defame our religion should be brought to justice. There are laws in the books to deal with these problems.

6. The casual 'spectator' seem to endorse retaliatory killings 'against them'. Retaliatory violence is blind and innocent INDIANS get murdered. We kill our own brothers and sisters.

7. The international conspiracy theory on conversions is interesting. But there is no one 'monolithic' Christian body. Such a conspiracy, even if accepted on face value can never work within the main body of Hinduism. It can only work at the fringes.

8. In 1999 census, it was found that the Christians as a percentage of total population actually declined. It is still under 2.5%, which is less than 25 million people in all of India.

9. We need to as a community counter any unwanted 'missionary' work, but at the same time one need to recognize that the community does perform various 'good works' per their religious command.

Regards,
KRS

 

[Ramaa]

http://www.hindu. com/2008/ 09/09/stories/20080909 60180400.htm

Two held for conversion bid

Staff Reporter

BANGALORE: The Ulsoor police have arrested two persons, including a U.S. national, on charges of attempting religious conversion, on Monday night. They have been remanded in judicial custody.
Ivie Cannon (24) and Valluri (28) have been accused for offences under Sections 295 (a) (deliberate and malicious acts intended to outrage religious feelings) and 298 (uttered words with deliberate intention to wound religious feelings) of the Indian Penal Code.


They were sent to Bangalore Central Prison in Parappana Agrahara off Hosur Road.

"On Tuesday we are expecting officials from the American Consulate. We have informed about the arrest of Ivie Cannon to his country," said authorities of the Ulsoor police station.

The police said preliminary investigations had revealed that the
accused were allegedly involved in attempting religious conversions in and around Ulsoor.

The main accused Ivie Cannon, a priest, came here three months back on a tourist visa and has been staying in CMH Road.

The police said Mr. Cannon, along with his other associates, was allegedly engaged in door-to-door conversion campaign at Muniswamy Appa Road, Jogupalaya, Ulsoor and surrounding areas. By offering money and other valuables, the accused were allegedly forcing the locals to visit churches and convert to their community.

On Sunday night, some persons objected to their activities and took them to the Ulsoor police station demanding that the police book them. They also held a protest demonstration in front of the station.

" We have confiscated pamphlets, visiting cards, copies of the Bible and other documents from the accused," said a police officer who did not want to be named.

 

[Ramaa]

http://www.bangalor emirror.com/index.aspx? page=article&sectid=10&contentid=2008092020080920010 249969b6a3cc41&sectxslt=

A pastor, a widow and seedy designs

[Widow charges him with exploiting her sexually, recording the act on hidden cameras and selling it to foreigners]

By Hemanth Kashyap and M K Ashoka

Posted On Saturday, September 20, 2008


The `sex scam' that rocked the city on Thursday has taken an intriguing twist with the victim charging the pastor with secretly filming her sexual acts and selling the tapes to foreigners.


The widow, 40, in a complaint to the Jnanabharati police, has alleged that pastor Babu Prasad of Mizpha Church, located in Rajajingar's Gopalpur area, sexually exploited her on the promise of marrying her.


The woman, who attempted suicide twice on learning about the
' porn CDs ', narrated her travails to Bangalore Mirror: " I lost my husband in an accident 23 years ago and I am a mother of a college-going son. I continued my husband's business and was leading a decent life till I was taken to the Mizpha church by a friend."

She was introduced to Pastor Prasad. Subsequently, she took a liking for his motivational talks. Prasad allegedly knew she was emotionally weak. " Prasad's wife and relatives started visiting my house and persuaded me to embrace their faith. Prasad also used my house for conducting prayers.

On April 1, asked me to return home from my factory. On my return, he exploited me sexually and got the whole act recorded. "

She claimed Prasad took her to a hotel on St Mark's Road on May 4 and introduced her to two Americans. " He gave them the CD and asked me to spend a night with them. I refused and managed to escape with the CD. When I played it at home, I realised how I was deceived," she said.

" When I questioned him, he said there was nothing wrong in making porn videos and selling it to foreigners," she said and charged Prasad with taking away her ornaments and using her to obtain a Rs 12 lakh loan.

Meanwhile, Prasad lodged a complaint with the Vijayanagar police accusing her of drugging him before forcing him to have sex with her.

Bangalore Mirror tried to contact him on his cellphone, but in vain.

The police said the pastor is absconding. They, however, admit the case is a sensitive one.

 

[spectator]

In post #39 I have said and I quote:

I gave my opinion giving my reasons.

I do not expect everyone to endorse my opinion.

It won't even bother me if no one liked it either.

I do not wish to get involved with anyone on a one to one discussion.

I am afraid it could turn into a nightmare as is happening in this forum. Persons are denounced for holding a opinion and are hounded until he/she accepts that his/her opinion is wrong and is vehemently vilified and persecuted if he/she refuses to continue discussion.

I hope I have a right to give my opinion without being engaged into a discussion that turns out to be unpleasant as described above.

Believe me I do hold others have a right to their opinion even if it be contrary to mine.

However one cannot be compelled to agree to a opinion that he/she dislikes.

 

[Saab]

Dear Admin,

The 'truth' may be one but human as we are, we look at the truth from our own different angle and from the basis of our own likes and dislikes. You see a shell looks like a silver from a distance but when you go near, the perception of 'siliver' is gone. This goes to show the same person can perceive a same thing differently by being in different places and at different times!

Looking at the world and then admiring it or denouncing it is the nature of ordinary people.

Only sages have transcended the likes and dislikes! They are extra-ordinary people!

Encouraging people to look at the world from different angles is the purpose of the forum. It would bring some sobriety. However the passion of each person that clouds a vision cannot be changed from seeing things from a different angle. This differing passion is ultimately the cause of the conflict. For example, I am passionate about my religion, my country, my people. Someone else may be passionate about a different religion, different country and different people. Such as between Hindus and Muslims or Hindus andChristians or between India and Pakistan etc. for example. These two are parellels. And parellels do not meet.

Sagaciously we should recognize the passion of each one and try not to enter into discussion on it. I see two (or more) different persons having different views. They have a right to hold their opinion to be sacrosanct.

A communist will ask everyone to hold the same opinion and be itching to become a victor of his viewpoint. Only a pluralist on the contrary can recognize multitudes of opinions and passions and be brave to let them be multitudes.

This is Dharma as we know it. Dharma is a flow, never stagnant. The ignorant always wants everything defined and does not recognize such a definition is impossible in a flow. Dharma is thr Rta the path.

"rthagum sathyam param brahmam purusham krishna pingalam
oordhwaretham viroopaaksham viswaroopaayavai namo namaha"

Regards,

 

[happyhindu]

1. If we as Hindus do not think we have a 'dalit' problem and it was partly our creation, and look at this as something against Hindus, then what can one say? People who think that the 'dalits' are a creation of Muslims and the English, do not know the recorded evolution of our own culture over centuries.

Dear Sri KRS-ji,

If you do not mind, am interested in knowing more abt the above.

I know theetu was followed in non-brahmin homes such as well in the past.

It seems 'social evolution' has happened really fast in these years.

According to my mum, they were not even taken to Shiva temples as children and she began visiting Shiva temples only as a teenager.
Such was the orthodox way in which they were raised. That side of the people are rather content to say they were gollas in some ancient times (some oral history: they call themselves yadavulu and everything is centered arounf Krishna) and I was very highly surprised to come to know recently, that until 4 generations ago some of them underwent samasraya and even until 3 generations ago a few underwent upanayanam. Seems like they became a sanskritized lot somewhere in between and now its back to basics. In my generation, I seem to be the only one who takes interest in knowing such things. And in the younger generations, its an other story...it wud be a wonder if some of them even remember their parents' names after a few years.

 

[Ramaa]

Newlife Christian Prayer meets abuse Hindus
By R Guru Prasad in Mangalore
When ex-prime minister and JD(S) supremo H.D. Deve Gowda and Mallikarjuna Kharge, a senior Congress leader, tried to take political advantage of the situation by visiting the damaged prayer halls, Hindus stopped them to show their damaged house and other belongings. This clearly shows that large number of Hindus are also affected in the attack by Christians. Rumours are thick in the air that some Muslim fundamentalist outfits have joined the Christians in attacking the Hindus, to fight Bajrang Dal and Sri Rama Sena, an active Hindu outfit in Mangalore. Though communal violence is common in Mangalore, the recent Christian violence against Hindus is something new. Usually trivial incidents like teasing, burning crackers for celebrating Pakistan's victory in the cricket matches, eloping or the big incidents like organising yatras, religious procession etc used to trigger communal violence.

Newlife, one of the 20 missionary centres, belongs to Karnataka Missions Network and started missionary activities six years ago in coastal areas of Dakshin Kannada District. It is actively propagating Christianity in Karnataka, other states and also in few foreign countries through publications, advertisements and through www.newlifevoice. org website. It started publishing and distributing literature Yesu Suvarthe containing glories of Jesus among Christians in Kannada language. But over the period of years locals felt that Newlife was indulging in conversions by alluring the gullible people by offering money, job, medical aid, vehicle etc. What irked the Hindus is that Newlife started distributing their literatures to Hindus to entice them to convert to Christianity. A local person told this correspondent that Newlife started giving instructions to newly converted people to abandon wearing tilak on forehead, not to visit and offer prayers at the Hindu temples, replacing the photos and idols of Hindu Gods and Goddesses with Cross etc. This was the beginning for creating disturbance in the peace-loving society.

With more and more gullible people falling prey to this organisation, Newlife went one step ahead in deriding the Hindu Gods and Goddesses by disdaining Lord Krishna—married to thousands of women (characterless) , Ganapati—rests in water after the puja (useless), Kali—wearing skulls all around the neck (ugly) etc., in their pamphlets, CDs and book Satya Darshini. Bangalore North MP, H.T.Sangliana, who is the guardian of Karnataka Missions Network, said that he will lodge a complaint against Newlife if there is an evidence with Bajrang Dal. The local public mentioned that "the method used by Christian missionaries in converting is like a network or multilevel marketing technique used by MNCs. In the first place they appoint young people by giving them a salary of Rs 4000 to 4500. They will go around meeting the gullible people in market areas, in buses etc., become friends and take them to church to introduce to the father there. Upon introduction they will be paid Rs 2500 per person. Pursuing with them and taking them to Velankanni Church, in Tamil Nadu, they get Rs. 3000. Further follow-up with them and finally conversion to Christianity by changing the name, they get an incentive of Rs 10000 onwards. The more they convert the more bonus points are added. The whole Hindu community is upset because of this."

More and more Hindus belonging to dominant castes like Brahmins and Vokkaligas have already converted to Christianity in Mangalore and hence their friends and relatives are naturally angry with churches. On Tuesday, the day of Mangalore bandh was called by Sri Rama Sena, protesting the stabbing of their leader on Monday by masked men, there was a network of sms, telling the Christians to respect Hindu sentiments. A few of them read: "Catholic or Newlife respect culture of this land. Don't think tolerance of Hindus as their weakness. If we can give land and stone to build churches, we can also pelt and break the same churches. Hindu society fully back Bajrangi guys who are retaliating in Mangalore and the surrounding regions on the issue of publications of denigrating and wrong information about Hindu Gods."

Karnataka Chief Minister Shri B.S. Yeddyurappa said his government will not tolerate forcible conversions and will take stringent action against missionaries involved in conversions. He also said that his government will investigate about the funds received by churches and other Christian missionaries by issuing a memo to ascertain the credibility of the churches in Karnataka. He further added that the government will take action against those indulging in arson.
http://www.organise r.org/dynamic/ modules.php? name=Content&pa=showpage&pid=256&page=3

 

[Saab]

From my inbox:

Instead of crying about conversions, Hindus should take the battle into enemy territory by recoverting Christians into Hindus. Hindus should stop reconversion efforts only if the Christians stop their conversion efforts.

 

[happyhindu]

Instead of crying about conversions, Hindus should take the battle into enemy territory by recoverting Christians into Hindus. Hindus should stop reconversion efforts only if the Christians stop their conversion efforts.

sorry, but a cent from my side....like krs-ji, am only expressing without expectation and not looking to be heard or responded to. And if you ask me why then bother abt posting, then well - its so that others who read the posts have an additional prespective or way to look at things from.

i have seen how a small bunch of members of one well known hindu-outfit went around harrasing some families in the outskirts of one small city to re-convert them back to hinduism. When a man has sought conversion for 'social status', believe me, it has not worked. Instead it has made them 'staunch christians'.