The dance of Shiva..

[renuka]

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The frequency of such gravitational waves are expected to vary from 10^-7 to 10^11 hz. Is such a frequency derived from some vedic sloka..? No. It is an estimation of Hawking and others..



-TBT

This is what I wanted to know..how you arrived to that value. ..Therefore there is NO Vedic verification of that value. Its only what your assumption.

So it seems that there is a busy Hamsa swimming back forth from the lake of the Vedas to the Lake of Physics.

I hope the Hamsa realizes that it usually separates Milk from Water and takes the Milk..and not play Agastya and drink every drop of liquid.

 

[thebigthinkg]

Dear Sravna,

The tendency to remain unchanged itself is undergoing constant change.

Going by that logic..even Inertia itself is in a state of "flux" to resist any change.

Becos Vishnu principle is seen as the Preserver..so there is an attempt to link inertia to Vishnu purely based on that fact that Vishnu seems to give the perception of a non changing state.

Further more can we actually describe anything or anyone with just one word?

Everything has some amount of duality when its able to be described.

So how can we only positively say Vishnu is Inertia?

Shouldnt Vishnu be sans Inertia too?


There is always 2 sides to a coin.

Pairs of opposites are inevitable when we describe anything.

Just to be clear, I am only presenting a summary of my understanding here. I never linked Vishnu to a preserver in my understanding. I did not derive Vishnu to be inertia from it. That's probably your understanding.

Inertia is both continuing in state of rest when at rest and continuing in motion when in motion. It is a property of matter that cannot be quantified directly. We actually do not know how it exists or why it exists. We observe it, but don't have an explanation for it.

ViS-nu means one that is working or working always. viz-Nu means who is all pervading, omnipresent etc.. Vis-Nu can only be inferred, can never be observed. My idea of Vis-nu as inertia comes from my translations of Vishu-SahasranAma and references to viSnu across several suktas, apart from viSNu's relationship with Brahma in several puranic stories. I have not presented that actual work in itself here. I will present them also here (I have to write some background and explanation stuff around them).

viS-nu is the Atma or Supreme consciousness that is re-born as property of 'Inertia' in matter. I do not see inertia as tamasic or in mode of darkness. I see it as the property, the principle reason behind the way Universe is, at present.

If skanda are six principal forms of energy in Universe (that perspired from Shiva/Energy), then Skanda's uncle Vishnu, the inertia, is the potential and kinetic in them.

That's why vishnu is called skanda-dhara. That's why Vishnu is Madhu (potential) and madu-sudhana (kinetic) both.

This is something that I would be re-writing:
http://vedabhasya.blogspot.in/2014/12/aditya-hrdayam-part-3-vishnu.html

-TBT

 

[thebigthinkg]

This is what I wanted to know..how you arrived to that value. There is NO Vedic verification of that value.

So it seems that there is a busy Hamsa swimming back forth from the lake of the Vedas to the Lake of Physics.

I hope the Hamsa realizes that it usually separates Milk from Water and takes the Milk..and not play Agastya and drink every drop of liquid.

In Vedas Hamsa does not separate milk from water. It separates Soma from Apa.

I explained how Hamsa separates Soma from Apa here
http://www.tamilbrahmins.com/showthread.php?t=30403&p=334872#post334872

1. This swan-like (Hamsa) wave movement of the Gravity (Brahma) affects all particles including the photons as photons travel along the ‘wave’ produced by the Hamsa.

1. This ‘Swan-like’ (Hamsa) wave movement of Gravity (Brahma) may not affect gluons or carrier of Strong force (Soma) as gluons are massless, but confined in hadrons and cannot travel freely.

1. Thus the Hamsa is said to separate the Soma (Strong force of Gluons) from the floods/Apa (EM force of Photons). In short, Hamsa may represent a 'wave' or a 'gravitational wave' depending on how it is used.

On how big or small a wave is Hamsa, I am not sure if I will get a 'number', but I may get to know the property of it, which is still being debated about. I don't want to jump the gun now.

-TBT

 

[renuka]

It is spiritual or the unchanging energy is what sustains the universe. So Vishnu being the preserver can relate to something that is unchanging.

The exciting part in Shri TBT's endeavor is that if we are able to somewhat logically map spiritual knowledge to science, there is a plethora of knowledge in spirituality, timeless ones which can have validity and hence so much practical value.

Our seers were able to see the knowledge without experimenting or doing any research. Ayurveda is one such practical example where the theory works.

I would urge people to be not discouraging even if they think they see no value. Personally I think a lot of good can come out of it.

Dear Sravna,

I had a book some where in my house which contains some Ancient Sanskrit Shlokas about Gravity.

There is no link with Brahma or Hiranyagarba at any line.

I can understand that looking at something from a different perspective could shed some light and develop insights to explore more ..but each step should be verified in an evidence based manner with input from both Science and the Vedas.

A few years ago..I used to engage with Non Hindu scholar from another country who also had his own version of his Non Hindu Religion and Science..his hypothesis ran into pages...I read all that he sent me.. and eventually he called me the Devil and stopped engaging with me!LOL.....cos on further questioning he could not produce evidence from his either his religious text or science..

 

[sravna]

Dear Renuka,

I see from Shri.TBT's post that his rationale is different from what I imagined it to be . That is the reason I said he can best defend his theory.

 

[thebigthinkg]

Other than bragging rights, what is the purpose of these claims? Will it feed one hungry child in India?
Yes in my social gatherings we people from India can brag about it. Our Hindutva leaders can make mockery of science and claim that we had Head transplant surgery (modi's claim) that an elephant head was transplanted on a human body. Or that we had aeroplane during Ramayana period.
Even if true we still have to buy them today in Dollars from Boeing or airbus industries.
What is the relevance of all these claims in today's world.
When we make these outlandish claims, we achieve nothing except strange look.
Does it impact our day to day living?
If we can improve a copied design and call it made in India, that would be better than these outlandish, UN-provable claims.

To speak the truth, at times this thought comes into me, as I am wasting my time and other's time in doing something that may end up in trash-bin. But probably it is my ego (or the fact that I enjoy doing it) that is not allowing me to divert and continuously pushes me into this journey. I hope something good comes out of it.

I will leave it to Him. Easwaro Rakshatu.

-TBT

 

[renuka]

My answers in blue

Inertia is both continuing in state of rest when at rest and continuing in motion when in motion. It is a property of matter that cannot be quantified directly. We actually do not know how it exists or why it exists. We observe it, but don't have an explanation for it.

You say we observe inertia but do not have an explanation for it..it can not be quantified.do not know why and how it exists etc....yet you are confident that Vishnu is Inertia?



My idea of Vis-nu as inertia comes from my translations of Vishu-SahasranAma and references to viSnu across several suktas, apart from viSNu's relationship with Brahma in several puranic stories.

Exactly! Its your idea of Vishnu being inertia...appreciate your honesty.



I do not see inertia as tamasic or in mode of darkness. I see it as the property, the principle reason behind the way Universe is, at present.

Again its your perception..becos traditionally Tamas is denoted as Inertia.

The Vishnu principle is NOT a Tamas principle.



If skanda are six principal forms of energy in Universe (that perspired from Shiva/Energy), then Skanda's uncle Vishnu, the inertia, is the potential and kinetic in them.



Skanda principle linked to the number 6 is becos of the constellation of Pleiades as far as I know.



-TBT

 

[renuka]

In Vedas Hamsa does not separate milk from water. It separates Soma from Apa.

I explained how Hamsa separates Soma from Apa here
http://www.tamilbrahmins.com/showthread.php?t=30403&p=334872#post334872

1. This swan-like (Hamsa) wave movement of the Gravity (Brahma) affects all particles including the photons as photons travel along the ‘wave’ produced by the Hamsa.

1. This ‘Swan-like’ (Hamsa) wave movement of Gravity (Brahma) may not affect gluons or carrier of Strong force (Soma) as gluons are massless, but confined in hadrons and cannot travel freely.

1. Thus the Hamsa is said to separate the Soma (Strong force of Gluons) from the floods/Apa (EM force of Photons). In short, Hamsa may represent a 'wave' or a 'gravitational wave' depending on how it is used.

On how big or small a wave is Hamsa, I am not sure if I will get a 'number', but I may get to know the property of it, which is still being debated about. I don't want to jump the gun now.

-TBT

Just a doubt...when did you start using the term Gravitational Wave? Recently or long back?

Is your reluctance to jump the gun becos its your latent period of waiting for science to come up with new theories and discoveries so that you can fit your theories into what science finds and then bend philosophy to fit into your personal Manasarovar where you swim freely?

 

[zebra16]

Dear Sravna,

The tendency to remain unchanged itself is undergoing constant change.

Going by that logic..even Inertia itself is in a state of "flux" to resist any change.

How do you arrive at this conclusion? Inertia is the natural state of a physical object to resist any change in its motion. The first point is it is involved only when the motion or non-motion of a physical object is countered by external force or stimuli or object.

By "flux" do you mean internal changes in the object? Does any internal change take place? If it is external, external changes are directly proportional to the force to be brought to bear on the surface of the object. A feather encountering only air resistance in its motion from a height to the floor level hardly undergoes any change.

 

[thebigthinkg]

My answers in blue

Inertia is both continuing in state of rest when at rest and continuing in motion when in motion. It is a property of matter that cannot be quantified directly. We actually do not know how it exists or why it exists. We observe it, but don't have an explanation for it.

You say we observe inertia but do not have an explanation for it..it can not be quantified.do not know why and how it exists etc....yet you are confident that Vishnu is Inertia?


What I stated here is from science. That's inertia according to our current scientific understanding. Vishnu is also like inertia which can only be perceived. He is the 'Atma' of all beings. There is a lot in VSN and other Vedic slokas. Hope you went through the link I provided which is also a summary.

But here you can appreciate the relationship between Vishnu, Brahma, Shiva, Shakti, mAyA et al with the relationship seen in scientific terms.


My idea of Vis-nu as inertia comes from my translations of Vishu-SahasranAma and references to viSnu across several suktas, apart from viSNu's relationship with Brahma in several puranic stories.

Exactly! Its your idea of Vishnu being inertia...appreciate your honesty.

Ofcourse it is my idea. It is different. There is nothing being honest in this.


I do not see inertia as tamasic or in mode of darkness. I see it as the property, the principle reason behind the way Universe is, at present.

Again its your perception..becos traditionally Tamas is denoted as Inertia.

The Vishnu principle is NOT a Tamas principle.

I think people confuse 'inert' with inertia and call inertia tamasic.

Vishnu (inertia) in equivalence with mAyA (rest-mass) is Tamasic.
Vishnu (inertia) in equivalence with Brahma (Gravity) is Sattvik.
mAyA/Vishnu (rest-mass) in equivalence with shakti (momentum) is Rajasik.

Vishnu, the Atma is all put together or above all of these gunas.

If skanda are six principal forms of energy in Universe (that perspired from Shiva/Energy), then Skanda's uncle Vishnu, the inertia, is the potential and kinetic in them.


Skanda principle linked to the number 6 is becos of the constellation of Pleiades as far as I know

Read more on it. You may get to know more on skanda.

-TBT

 

[zebra16]

Other than bragging rights, what is the purpose of these claims?

Worse, they do not even know what to brag about. Just an example here:

YAskAchArya, the author/compiler of "nirukta" or "nighantu" had explained while explaining the term "vaishvAnara" that the word "vaishvAnara" means both Surya and agni, in effect implying at least some of the properties of both are the same.

He is said to have demonstrated that by reflecting the sunlight with the help of a bronze vessel (kAmsa pAtram) on dried cow dung and also repeated the experiment by using 'maNi" burning the dried cow dung in both the instances. Thus to a discerning student of science subject he had at least an idea of reflection and refraction of light.

He is said to have lived somewhere in the 5th-7th century BC, that is at least 300 years before Euclid.

I had studied this in my Sanskrit class about 30-35 years back and it is still only in Sanskrit text books only. Not even a foot-line is mentioned in any of the science books (published for school kids in India) about yAskA stumbling on the subject of reflection or refraction of light, even accidentally.

 

[thebigthinkg]

Just a doubt...when did you start using the term Gravitational Wave? Recently or long back?

Is your reluctance to jump the gun becos its your latent period of waiting for science to come up with new theories and discoveries so that you can fit your theories into what science finds and then bend philosophy to fit into your personal Manasarovar where you swim freely?

I just want to be clear..

My thrust as Brahma as Gravity, Vishnu as Inertia, Hiranyagarbah as spacetime has been there for years. Few months back when I was collecting references on Hamsa, spurred by a debate like this asking me to explain why Brahma is depicted as hamsa-vahana, for which I could not answer, I was collecting references of Hamsa from across several upanishads. At all points I could see them depicting a movement.

The Hamsa Upanishad details very much on it. I just recorded Hamsa as vahana of Brahma could be simply depicting the movement of Gravity, which is simply a bending of spacetime to shiva/shakti.

To tell you the truth (it may look like needless bragging and I want to avoid it.. I want to keep it in rational limits as much as possible), in few days after I recorded it, I read a tweet on gravitational wave discovery and a week or so after it, I saw it coming up in all news items.

It put me in a soup. It makes it look like that I suddenly copied Gravitational wave to Hamsa. I let it lie low key submerged in other texts, to avoid unneccessary distraction.

I have not had complete understanding of Hamsa Upanishad. When I complete it I can atleast talk about the range of movement or may be change my understanding of Hamsa.

-TBT

 

[zebra16]

Background

If Shiva is Energy, Why is Shiva (Energy) said to be dancing..?-TBT

May be precise definitions will help as you intend to give at least quasi-scientific explanations?

By Shiva do you mean energy or potential?

If you give the meaning as "energy" then it runs counter to almost all the meanings attributed to Siva in any of the scriptures, be it Vedas, upaniSads, purANams or slOkams. Just to give a sample case:

/ shiva shaktyA yuktO yadi bhavati shakta: prabhavituM
Na chE dEvam dEvO na khalu kushalah: spanditum api
Atah:stwAm ArAdyAm hari hara virinchi Adibhirapi
praNantum stOtum va kaTham akrata puNyah: prabhavati // 01 //

says the first sloka of Soundarya Lahari, meaning Shakti getting involved with Siva.

If Siva himself/itself is energy, then what is the second energy or force you are alluding to?

 

[sravna]

My feedback:

I would consider Shiva as representing force using maya which is the impact of the force and vishnu being the unchanging energy which helps in dispelling maya.

 

[zebra16]

My feedback:

I would consider Shiva as representing force using maya which is the impact of the force and vishnu being the unchanging energy which helps in dispelling maya.

If so, why would all scriptural literature refer to mAyA as viSnu Shakthi and not even one mention it as the shakti attribute of Siva?

 

[renuka]

How do you arrive at this conclusion? Inertia is the natural state of a physical object to resist any change in its motion. The first point is it is involved only when the motion or non-motion of a physical object is countered by external force or stimuli or object.

By "flux" do you mean internal changes in the object? Does any internal change take place? If it is external, external changes are directly proportional to the force to be brought to bear on the surface of the object. A feather encountering only air resistance in its motion from a height to the floor level hardly undergoes any change.

From my understanding of inertia from what I have been reading about is that inertia involves both matter and movement and its resistance of a mass to change its steady state be it movement or rest.

By flux I do not mean internal structural changes in an object..its more like how reactions take place at a level to maintain a steady state.

 

[zebra16]

HiranyaGarbha - Four dimensional spacetime curvature

Can I ask where is the fourth dimensional space-time curvature alluded to in scriptures? or is it your hypothesis which you seek to establish?

 

[renuka]

Answers in blue:

The Hamsa Upanishad details very much on it. I just recorded Hamsa as vahana of Brahma could be simply depicting the movement of Gravity, which is simply a bending of spacetime to shiva/shakti.

Ever thought of it this way? That is...Hamsa is what we get when we recite So' Ham in a repeated fashion...Sah Aham also known as So'ham represents the breath sounds..After all our existence itself is denoted by the breath of Brahma according to philosophy.So the Hamsa might not actually depict a swan but just representing the cycle of creation.



To tell you the truth (it may look like needless bragging and I want to avoid it.. I want to keep it in rational limits as much as possible), in few days after I recorded it, I read a tweet on gravitational wave discovery and a week or so after it, I saw it coming up in all news items.

It put me in a soup. It makes it look like that I suddenly copied Gravitational wave to Hamsa. I let it lie low key submerged in other texts, to avoid unneccessary distraction.


Cool...I just wanted to know when you started using that term.I believe you..I know this can happen..sometimes what we write and feel we think its our thoughts and just a little later we find that it is actually being proven by someone else..I guess thought waves are in the air..we can sense stuff too ..knowledge comes from every direction isnt it?

I have not had complete understanding of Hamsa Upanishad. When I complete it I can atleast talk about the range of movement or may be change my understanding of Hamsa.

-TBT

 

[zebra16]

Answers in blue:

# 68

Tell you what, I lost the net after I composed the message about hamsa-so'ham, so'ham hamsaH. Lo!! I login to find that you have already incorporated the reply.

 

[renuka]

# 68

Tell you what, I lost the net after I composed the message about hamsa-so'ham, so'ham hamsaH. Lo!! I login to find that you have already incorporated the reply.

The depolarizing waves were dancing in your mind and my mind at the same time...your internet connections decided to join in the dance with resistance and inertia hence I typed first!LOL

 

[sravna]

If so, why would all scriptural literature refer to mAyA as viSnu Shakthi and not even one mention it as the shakti attribute of Siva?

Zebra Ji,

When unchanging energy is veiled by maya , creation happens . The unchanging energy which represents brahman has both changing and unchanging aspects. The unchanging aspect is the essence which is got by the synchronization of all the changing. When creation happens both the changing and the unchanging aspects are projected which we call as Shiva and Vishnu. For example in the case of waves, we have both frequency and wavelength representing the changing and unchanging aspect and in a similar way in everything that exists. These aspects pervade through all of space and time in everything, till everything including space and time dissolves back into brahman.

The impact of the force is because of the force. An attribute is something which describes the possessor of the attribute and may be I think the unchanging aspect is what represents the real and the changing aspect projects illusion, maya may be considered as vishnu shakthi.

But ultimately, the perceiver and the perceived, the force and energy all are one and the same.

 

[auh]

How do you arrive at this conclusion? Inertia is the natural state of a physical object to resist any change in its motion. The first point is it is involved only when the motion or non-motion of a physical object is countered by external force or stimuli or object.

By "flux" do you mean internal changes in the object? Does any internal change take place? If it is external, external changes are directly proportional to the force to be brought to bear on the surface of the object. A feather encountering only air resistance in its motion from a height to the floor level hardly undergoes any change.

Just to add to the confusion - is any body or object really at rest? In space every object is at motion, either by itself or on the shoulders of somebody (or thing).

 

[sravna]

So here's a formula:

Vishnu = unchanging
shiva = changing + synchronizations = unchanging=vishnu
maya is felt when the changes alone are felt. The less the changes are felt, the more maya is being dispelled.

 

[thebigthinkg]

Dear Renuka,

I see from Shri.TBT's post that his rationale is different from what I imagined it to be . That is the reason I said he can best defend his theory.

Sir

First of all my sincere thanks for taking time to appreciate a new perspective. Though I was a skeptic on such things a decade back and ridiculed any such stuff I came across (as I am writing today), I think we have somewhere messed up and lost a good amount of knowledge. I am no historian and cannot say what happened, but I understand now that Vedas are not words of soma drunk seers.

Actually the functions of trinity are well represented in Brahma, Vishnu, Shiva. (But that is not the 'reason' why I mapped them with Gravity, Inertia and Energy).

Brahma as HiranyaGarbha or spacetime is the first one to be 'created' or 'formed' in the Universal evolution. Inside this spactime further creations take place.

Vishnu the Inertia as the re-born Atma, as a property of matter, is what 'preserves' the Universe. It is a fundamental property that sustains the Universe as we see it now. To be at rest, when in rest and to be in motion, when in motion is actually 'PRESERVING'.

Energy is the 'form' of this Universe. All matter and beings originate from this 'Energy' and go back into that Energy. Universal matter evolution that started as a bundle of energy with a Big-Bang may end up back in the same form. As I wrote in this blog, the 'dance' of Energy on spacetime curvature (which is a scientific fact, not my imagination) is all what this Universal matter is, from its birth to death. Hence Shiva represents that origination to dissolution.

These could be simplified as Creation, Preserving and Dissolution in a 'Western' way of thinking.

-TBT

 

[sravna]

Sir

First of all my sincere thanks for taking time to appreciate a new perspective. Though I was a skeptic on such things a decade back and ridiculed any such stuff I came across (as I am writing today), I think we have somewhere messed up and lost a good amount of knowledge. I am no historian and cannot say what happened, but I understand now that Vedas are not words of soma drunk seers.

Actually the functions of trinity are well represented in Brahma, Vishnu, Shiva. (But that is not the 'reason' why I mapped them with Gravity, Inertia and Energy).

Brahma as HiranyaGarbha or spacetime is the first one to be 'created' or 'formed' in the Universal evolution. Inside this spactime further creations take place.

Vishnu the Inertia as the re-born Atma, as a property of matter, is what 'preserves' the Universe. It is a fundamental property that sustains the Universe as we see it now. To be at rest, when in rest and to be in motion, when in motion is actually 'PRESERVING'.

Energy is the 'form' of this Universe. All matter and beings originate from this 'Energy' and go back into that Energy. Universal matter evolution that started as a bundle of energy with a Big-Bang may end up back in the same form. As I wrote in this blog, the 'dance' of Energy on spacetime curvature (which is a scientific fact, not my imagination) is all what this Universal matter is, from its birth to death. Hence Shiva represents that origination to dissolution.

These could be simplified as Creation, Preserving and Dissolution in a 'Western' way of thinking.

-TBT

Dear Shri TBT,

I understand what you are trying to say, I strongly believe that the experimentation and confirmation by evidence in the physical world approach is lot more cumbersome needing constant fixing than theorizing with depth and understanding which is what our seers did.

So I understand the importance of mapping spiritual knowledge to science to restore the belief of our people in spirituality and equally importantly, the important practical applications that it will give forth to.

Thanks again for taking the time to explain.