The Great Hindu Tradition

[Vivek_V]

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Sri Sangom

"The next generation tabras who are working here in Kerala, do not seem to have that sort of a "superiority feeling" as some members' posts here have revealed (I do not consider Shri Vivek in this, pl. note)."

Thank you for explicitly mentioning that Sangom. I really believe however that you need to recheck the message you have for the community at large. It completely seems to be a message of disregard to our more larger legacy we have had, by resigning that nothing can be done (which is what I feel you are doing), you are only agreeing that our culture, by its genesis represents an evil of harming people.

This doesn't end with you, but with the larger issue of how your own sons and grandsons will be considered. Its not about getting jobs, the undercurrents of how you are viewed as a community is important too. And why should we allow our larger legacy to pass unnoticed, when it exists?

"Also, I find the next generation youngsters (those below their 40's or so) not placing their brahmin status as some sort of privilege but as a necessary or unavoidable way of social living, nothing more. They take part in all cultural activities of all other groups including the not-so-fanatic christian outfits; only, Muslims remain still somewhat separate."

I have had interactions with Muslims too. The issue about the new generation sir is they don't have to stand at a pedestal and be made to exculpate for a crime all of society was involved in when its falsely justified by the type of rhetroic that Nara and Happyhindu have - that everything started with brahmins, other NB doing casteism is because of Manu Smriti (yet theoe very NBs couldn't take inspiration from BG which brahmins also wrote).

"So, I think the next generation or two will be more or less able to shake off the feeling of superiority (or, shall I say Brahmin exceptionalism?) completely. That is why I put a time span of 50 years."

They will have their brahmin identity, they will go right down to the question of what it means to be a brahmin and dig it from everywhere. From what I have read brahmins had many discourses, this was for a point to be validated. Anything then can be put on the table - this is exactly why brahmins who were convinced followed and were the greatest spreaders of Buddhism.

"Perhaps he has a case, but so far he has been referring to Vivekananda, Tagore (both non-brahmins), Bharatiyar (brahmin) as people who admirably worked for elimination of caste. Out of three names again two are NBs."

The issue is more about them being influenced by philosophies of brahmins in the past - which is something neither Nara nor Happyhindu have the fairness of mind to digest. Brahmins for that matter have been part of many great legacies in India, and even TN. Your own thinking of TBs and "common people" tells me how polarized DK has made tamil society.

"if Shri Vivek can prepare a write-up on "Brahmins were never parties to castes, casteism or caste-based atrocities; they worked for elimination of the caste system" and post it here so that we will know in full, his line of thinking."

I am not claiming brahmins throughout worked to eliminate casteism - people from all walks (including brahmins) have worked to eliminate casteism. Our philosophy today has a strong basis to refute what the mutts are doing, yet Happyhindu questions as to whether Upanishads were indeed written by brahmins. If its a matter of doubt, it only falls on the Manu Smriti which speaks of law (something connected to kshatriyas and brahmins together).

My issue is DK vilifying our community without accepting the whole truth about casteism and using this social problem to drive out brahmins and demonize the community. As the word "brahminism" itself doesn't speak about BG, or the Upanishads, but only of casteism and ill-treatment.
Does it completely speak about brahmin society in TN, or in India? Or what they have worked for in society? Till today dalit orgs, because of caste politics have trouble accepting that brahmins (born to brahmin parents of astika school that is) spread buddhism to a great extent, and that even buddhist monks were called brahmanas because of their lifestyle. But Ambedkar's message however was a good one, it gave dalits an identity. I can understand some dalits harbouring bruises, but many are friendly to brahmins and don't solely hold them responsible. They understand the issue was more complex than that. In TN however, with the message of EVR, is only to attack brahmins, which is why TN society when never in history was seen as TBs and "common people", is seen that way today. And its because of EVRs wrong approach, why casteism is rampant in TN rural areas. Yet, Nara and Happyhindu go ahead to speak like this was okay.

Regards,
Vivek.

 

[Vivek_V]

Happyhindu

"It makes no difference whether any Bharatiyar or Ambedkar fought caste-discrimination in the past. It remains a fact that brahmanical mutts are keeping alive birth-based caste discrimination as well as propagating them till today... "

Agreed. But it is worth mentioning to DK that a Bharatiyar did fight casteism, and there is more than that - this is necessary for TN society to start seeing the brighter side of brahmin past when they have been steered to thinking the worst of the community. You see, you judge brahmins by the mutts. The mutts can be challenged by Upanishads, BG etc, definitely or even disregarded.

But that can only happen if TN society at large gets out of its brahmin-hating shell, to see a larger legacy of brahmins and to accept the true nature of casteism. Tamil dalits are victims, and its not only because of brahmins. Instead of accepting this for what it is, you went on to say, they are following something brahmins prescribed which is why they do it. Why don't they follow BG which brahmins also spread? Why is that not included in "brahminism"? Why is Bharatiyar not included in "brahminism"?

DK doesn't acknowledge the larger legacy of TBs, which is something I obviously have problems with because every vilification is done, everything about the brahmins and their culture (which is way larger than the mutts) is being judged by what the mutt does, or what is written in one Manu smriti. As a Tamilian, I yearn to one day learn the language, and as a Tamilian I sympathize for Srilankan Tamils, and am proud of Tamil legacy and history, all of that is something I share with the DK loyalists, but I am not in agreement with that society which makes me feel guilty for being born a brahmin, or makes it an imperative for me to become an "ex-brahmin". Not that DK with all its hate speaches of ""kill brahmin instead of snake" made changes to the lives of dalits either

Regards,
Vivek.

 

[Nara]

..... I have come to the conclusion that these are people who are irredeemably sold on the idea of brahmin conspiracy. There is no use arguing with these people. They will disengage suddenly from the conversation with you to pop up in another thread some other day with the same arguments with different phrases and clauses.

Well suraju06, how about the following:

I have come to the conclusion that these are people who are irredeemably sold on the idea of brahmin supremacy. There is no use arguing with these people. They will disengage suddenly from the conversation with you to pop up in another thread some other day with the same arguments with different phrases and clauses.
​

I changed just one measly word, no prize for figuring out which one.

It is easy to make triumphant declarative statements, anyone can do that. But to stick to facts and logic, well that is difficult.

Suraju06, you have accused me of going into sphinx like silence. Now I ask you to show me when and under what thread I retreated without giving you an answer. If you do, I am ready to engage you just as long as you refrain from making personal comments.

BTW, there is one issue that is still pending between the two of us on which you promised an answer, but never gave one.

The point of my original set of post fits in very nicely with the following that you say:

நீங்கள் அவர்கள் காலிலே விழுங்கோள், அவர்களை ஆராதியுங்கோள், அவர்கள் உண்ட சேஷத்தை புஜியுங்கோள், அவர்களின் ஸ்ரீபாத தீர்த்தம் அருந்துங்கோள் is all ok as these are all natural meanings of what PVP has written.
​

Yes I know! That is what I was saying also. But what I am also saying is, put your money where your mouth is. Show me one brahmin SV institution where this is practiced. The present day Brahmin SVs, both observant and the weekend Brahmins, who take great pride in the greatness of Azhvars and commentators like SPP, hypocritically ignore even this narrow vision of respect within the community of Bhagavathas irrespective of caste.

Click here for context.

Cheers!

 

[Raghy]

Sri.Nara Sir said in #64 -

It should be a matter of pride and amazement that Tamils in general are tolerant to the extent Brahmins in Tamail Nadu can still flout their Brahmin identity unhindered, despite the sordid supremacist history.

Now, Brahmins are not Tamils anymore? It is very nice to see Tamils and brahmins are two different groups of people. I was under the impression, Tamil is a language, everyone who speaks Tamizh as their language and/or who's ancestors were Tamizh speaking persons, then they could be called Tamils.

It looks like, there is a new caste by the name 'Tamils' living in TamilNadu. What is more, Sri.Nara is amazed and feels proud of this Tamil caste people tolerate brahmin caste people in Tamil Nadu!

Sri. Praveen Sir,

You call this forum by the name 'Tamil Brahmin' forum (although everyone is welcome).

But with this new information, the name 'Tamil Brahmin' is oxymoron. You can't belong to Tamil caste and at the same time belong to brahmin caste too. Since caste can not be changed, once you are born as a brahmin, you may not claim yourself to be Tamil anymore.

You may have to change the name of this forum, please.

Cheers!

 

[sangom]

Mr. Vivek,

I have many times tried to counter the argument put forth by some members in this forum who support the view points of Periyar and DK , use kazhakam terms like brahminism, centuries of exploitation by brahmins, the brahmin conspiracy etc. They usually eulogize Periyar as some one who brought a social revolution. They have been parroting all these as dinned into their ears and into their minds by the kazhagam orators.

Shri Suraju,

I presume you include myself also in the aforesaid category and hence wish to express my views.

Tamil Brahmins as you know have been settled in Kerala (old Travancore, Cochin states and Palghat areas, more particularly) and people like me have had first hand experience of the privileges enjoyed by them in the society (next only to the Namboodiris, who rank higher as "true" kerala brahmins), and the resultant 'hauteur' they had towards the lower castes. For example, in the school if a brahmin boy happened to hit (beat) a low caste boy - particularly the SC/ST of today, over some heated argument, those boys dared not hit the brahmin boy back, for fear that they will be subjected to the most cruel punishments by their parents for doing such an act, if the brahmin boy or his elders made a complaint. Of course the brahmins could directly punish the low caste boy - no one would dare to question them, but for fear of getting ritual pollution, they will just call the boy's father/uncle - who will stand outside the gate or "padippura" - and just tell him, "your son/nephew dared to hit my son in school today, what have you to say?", and that would be sufficient. I am giving this very innocuous-looking example - narrated to me by a cousin of mine who is some 10 years elder to me, though by the time I went to the school by 1947, things had started changing.


If this was the scenario in Kerala, it is possible to imagine what would have been the position in TN in those days where TBs ranked as the highest caste and caste ruled supreme.

My view, therefore, is that irrespective of DK/Periyar/Kazhakam etc., there is an essential core of truth for which all communities had been harbouring a grudge against the brahmins and we should not pretend that it simply does not exist, because we say so or try to convince ourselves that all these NBs have been "simply misled" by DK/Periyar/Kazhakam etc., and their rhetoric. The more we try to "darken the whole world by shutting our eyes", the more contempt and ridicule we will get. It is not that I am misled by these Kazhakam publicity because I have not lived there in TN but only visited my relatives often.

In Kerala the brahmins - both Namboodiris and TBs as also brahmins of other varieties like the Tulu brahmins, Madhva brahmins, Konkani brahmins, etc. - understood quickly, which way the wind was blowing, and adapted to the changing situations more admirably and quickly than their counterparts in TN by the time Independence approached.

Every time I have brought to their notice the fact that there is nothing called brahminism- it is only the casteism, there is nothing called brahmin supremacy-it is only the upper castes hegemony, there is nothing called exploitation by brahmins-it is only the exploitation of the panchamans by all other upper castes including the Sudras, I come across a sphinx like silence.

In my view, under the then caste system with all its rigidities, the innumerable castes were piled up, one above the next lower one in the strict order of caste rankings, so that caste-wise the brahmana was at the very top, with no or zero load above him, while the dalits - at the very bottom of the pile - had to bear the weight of all those above, i.e., all the non-dalits.

Within a particular caste, there were further divisions or sub-castes, but just as you may be knowing about the sub-castes within Tabras, these were placed horizontally with respect to each other; so none of these had to bear the load of the other sub-castes within the same larger caste.

I and, perhaps, others like me believe that this caste system originated with the brahmins or Aryas who composed and compiled the vedas and went on composing anything and everything that today stands as hindu scripture. For every one of the examples cited here by Shri Vivek to show that brahmins did not go by caste/s, there will be more than one reference in some text or another, and sometimes in the same text itself, nullifying its effect. Of course, this will require an unbiased view.

May be, today,it will be politically convenient for us tabras to tell one and all, on the lines on which Shri Vivek or you yourself say, but I am not sure if any NB will be so uninformed or naive to be convinced by it. It will only give them an opportunity to revive old memories and rekindle old prejudices which might exacerbate the hate towards the brahmins, while, if we simply keep quiet and mind our business to the best of our abilities, without trying to counter the propaganda of the kazhakams, these prejudices will get extinguished over a period of time. That is my view on this subject.

 

[Raghy]

Sri. Vivek Sir,

Greetings. I have been reading some of your messages. (Yes, not all of the messages). Kindly allow me to correct you, please; Sow.Happy Hindu did not write anywhere in favour of DK agendas. There was a time, I had many discussions with Sow.HH, she only expressed her sincere appreciation towards common brahmins (the one's not connected to mutts or armed with power) in general as human-beings. There were messages she expressed such views in as many words. Sorry, It was more than 6 months ago..I don't know if I could dig them up.

I am writing this message to you, because, I noticed your connecting Sow.HH and DK agendas, two times in as many days. Since it is not true, I am compelled to write this.

Kindly don't think I am wrting this in support of Sow.HH; I am not. I am only pointing out the truth.

Cheers!

 

[Raghy]

Sri.Sangom said -

In Kerala the brahmins - both Namboodiris and TBs as also brahmins of other varieties like the Tulu brahmins, Madhva brahmins, Konkani brahmins, etc. - understood quickly, which way the wind was blowing, and adapted to the changing situations more admirably and quickly than their counterparts in TN by the time Independence approached.

Sri.Sangom Sir, Greetings. In Tamil Nadu also, only similar situations happened. In my opinion, the discrimination acts in Tamil Nadu were possibly less than that of Kerala or Andhra. DK was not charging brahmins for the discrminations carried out at that time; they were charging brahmins for the past actions, actions carried out by their 'fore fathers'. Usually DKs started their dialogue with..'For the last 5,000 years.....' Well, I kept hearing it until I left India; I don't know the present dialogue though.

In Tamil Nadu DK accused brahmins of discriminating lower castes while they discriminated Harijans/SC/STs; by the way, DK continue to do it as of today. Such actions were not taking place in Kerala. I have to accept this; Malayalee community were honest in social reforms. DK was never honest. DK never condemned high caste NB Hindus discriminating lower caste people. The video 'India--untouched' clearly showed that.

So, kindly don't compare Kerala and Tamil Nadu, please. such comparisons will not be equitable.

Cheers!

 

[sangom]

Sri.Sangom said -



Sri.Sangom Sir, Greetings. In Tamil Nadu also, only similar situations happened. In my opinion, the discrimination acts in Tamil Nadu were possibly less than that of Kerala or Andhra. DK was not charging brahmins for the discrminations carried out at that time; they were charging brahmins for the past actions, actions carried out by their 'fore fathers'. Usually DKs started their dialogue with..'For the last 5,000 years.....' Well, I kept hearing it until I left India; I don't know the present dialogue though.

In Tamil Nadu DK accused brahmins of discriminating lower castes while they discriminated Harijans/SC/STs; by the way, DK continue to do it as of today. Such actions were not taking place in Kerala. I have to accept this; Malayalee community were honest in social reforms. DK was never honest. DK never condemned high caste NB Hindus discriminating lower caste people. The video 'India--untouched' clearly showed that.

So, kindly don't compare Kerala and Tamil Nadu, please. such comparisons will not be equitable.

Cheers!

Dear Shri Raghy,

You will kindly observe that my comparison of Kerala and TN was only in so far as the superiority which brahmins enjoyed in society and their resultant hauteur. You are referring to DK, their approach and all. I don't understand the link between the two. Just because the discriminations in TN was low (how do we measure and calibrate this?) according to you, but not absent, anyway - even according to you - do you mean to say that the NBs and lower castes should not harbour any grudge or that they should have had only a certain lower level of dislike as seems proportionate and appropriate to our minds?

 

[Raghy]

Sri.Sangom Sir,

Greetings. I am not saying, lower caste persons should not hold grudge against brahmins in Tamil Nadu; nor I am denying any discriminations. All I was trying to convey was, in Tamil Nadu also, Brahmins reduced discriminatory acts while some of them altogether gave it up. Since I do not have any quantifiable data, I am not able to state it stastically. There is a reason for mentioning about DK; although brahmins were giving up discriminatory acts anyway, DK kept the propaganda up as if brahmins were continuing discriminatory acts.

When we talk about brahmins in Tamil Nadu in the context of discriminating lower castes, in my opinion, we have to talk about DK too.

Cheers!

 

[kunjuppu]

Thank you sangom.

Vivek, I wish to share this following with you and also members at large.

There is ever so often complaints here about how much in bad light tambram community is portrayed in movies. I had one such experience yesterday.

Yesterday I watched the movie ‘angaadi theru’, which is a fabulous movie btw, won prizes, and describes the conditions of migrant rural labour in a large department store, set in ranganathan street, t’nagar. Chennaivasis will be familiar with that environment in t’nagar – the situation is also very similar in those huge jewellery and silk sari shops, where we have sales folks packed behind the counters, ready to provide a standard of help, which for those folks living in the west, is but a pipedream.

There is a side story in the movie, not really relevant to the main them. the heroine (herself late teens & orphan) is called urgently by her younger sister’s employers (tambrams), where the sister is employed as a live in housemaid. On rushing to their home, she finds a rude woman, announcing that the young girl has matured, and hence cannot stay in the house during her period, as they observe ‘madi’.

We are now taken to the back of a big bungalow, two small sheds, one for the dog, and the other where this girl is lying down weeping. The implication is that the family pet is treated on par with the servants, as we can see the dog paraphernalia in one shed, and attached to it, the maid’s shed has her few clothes hanging.

As a tambram, I could not help feeling that our community is put on a bad light here. Then thinking through, I wondered if there is truth in this. I am forced to accept that it could happen to any one of the members’ homes. People might ask, ‘would not other employers of domestic servants do the same?’ probably. But I have seen tambram homes where such situations exist in Chennai.

In my own home, I remember my own mother packing off a maid from kerala, the minute she matured, explaining to one and all, that she could not handle the ensuing ‘problems’, whatever that meant. But that was 50 years ago.

But today, one of my male cousins, a meat eater & alcohol imbiber all his life, has turned ‘madi’. You should see the respect that he commands in our family. I can see their maid being treated such.

As I said, I grew up in a mixed neighbourhood. The maids in NB & Christian houses, I believe were more a part of the family. They cooked, and ate in the house, unlike our households, where there was a separate cup and were given the leftovers to take home.

I wish to say, that our sense of difference, is so deeply ingrained, that for someone grown up outside of south india, it is very difficult to grasp how inbred are these prejudices. And more than out, how crude and cruel they appear. Elderly muslims with their constant beed counting do not appear to shun human contact. I know of no Christian or hindu NB with a built in aversion to contact with people of other communities, the way we have exercised it, in the name of madi or jaathi.

Mercifully, it is disappearing, and there may still be some hope for us. What is inbred in us for millenniums, will take a few generations to divest itself.

Yes there have been Brahmin reformers, but their messages I doubt even penetrated their own families. Whatever mama said outside the house remained outside, as it was mami who ruled the roost and laid down the rules. Many ardent tambram communists, barring a few, resorted to jadhagam poruthal for their children. Every political philosophy appears to be only skin deep, but not seem to have penetrated to the psyche, in many cases.

Of our own accord, we will not change. It is more convenient and self justifying to believe a la mode of Vivek or Suraju or ShivKC. Such is human nature. Fortunately, this is a shrinking crowd, as it is apparent in many instances, if not all, that our next generation is more committed to egalitarian thinking than their ancestors.

Back to the movie, angadi theru. Towards the end, the younger sister is being shipped off to faraway Assam, to keep company for the bossy lady’s married daughter. Out came sharp words of warning, ‘just because you are going to work out of town, do not expect any raise in salary!’.

Now I wonder, if this nasty comment is anti brahminism or in general attitude of the well-offs against the poor who have no bargaining tools. Definitely whatever the case may be, it is appalling at the absence of empathy. Would it be fair to say, what little empathy that we have, we reserve it only for our own clan, as a general rule?

I think, if there is a general feeling among communities that the tambrams have given up in thought, word and deed, the worst evils of manu smriti, we can then take a high road, to point fingers at other communities who are still physically abusing the dalits. Even the dalits do not show sympathy towards us, even though there is a general opinion here, I suspect, that the mayawati Brahmin alliance was a harbringer of better times. in tamil nadu the VCK is as cynical as ever about tambrams. So,Till changes take place as to how we are perceived as a community, I think, we should keep mum.

though, on an individual level, all of us have dear freinds across all communities. i sure would hope so!!

 

[Nara]

......It looks like, there is a new caste by the name 'Tamils' living in TamilNadu. What is more, Sri.Nara is amazed and feels proud of this Tamil caste people tolerate brahmin caste people in Tamil Nadu!

I take a lot of contrarian positions in this forum and for that reason I end up being a lightening rod of sorts. That is fine, in fact I welcome the criticism. However, a few people here have made it a routine to make up things and deride and mock me. Vivek has been after me with all kinds of extrapolation and downright misunderstandings. Now, this from Raghy.

I never said or implied Tamils are a caste, nor did I say Brahmins are not Tamils. Suppose that one were to say the Egyptians have tolerated Mubbarak for a long time, would that mean Mubbarak is not an Egyptian? Vivek has been repeating a lie that Brahmins have been exiled from Tamil Nadu. My observation was made in that context.

Once again, I don't mind getting criticized for the views I hold, but making things up and ridiculing me for those made up things, betrays resentment or hatred, or what I wonder.

In any case, keep it all coming, I love all the attention.....

 

[Raghy]

I take a lot of contrarian positions in this forum and for that reason I end up being a lightening rod of sorts. That is fine, in fact I welcome the criticism. However, a few people here have made it a routine to make up things and deride and mock me. Vivek has been after me with all kinds of extrapolation and downright misunderstandings. Now, this from Raghy.

I never said or implied Tamils are a caste, nor did I say Brahmins are not Tamils. Suppose that one were to say the Egyptians have tolerated Mubbarak for a long time, would that mean Mubbarak is not an Egyptian? Vivek has been repeating a lie that Brahmins have been exiled from Tamil Nadu. My observation was made in that context.

Once again, I don't mind getting criticized for the views I hold, but making things up and ridiculing me for those made up things, betrays resentment or hatred, or what I wonder.

In any case, keep it all coming, I love all the attention.....

(I am quoting the whole message to avoid any charge of misinterpretations).

Brahmin's presence can be traced to South India for the past 1,000s of years. And yet, brahmins are considered as 'migrants' in Tamil Nadu. 'Dravids' are the people who spoke Dravidian languages. There was migration of people over the centuries from all parts of India and from outside. Inspite of living in South India and in Tamil Nadu for 1,000s of years, brahmins are considered only as 'outsiders' by DK Parties and its off-shoot political parties.

In this kind of a background, when a staunch DK follower Sri.Nara seperates brahmins from Tamils, flags will be raised; alarm bells would be sounded. From DK track records, I have cause to believe, Sri.Nara's innocent looking write up may indeed be a DK propoganda to seperate Tamils and brahmins in the future.

In the case of Mubarak, he has no cause to fear, no one is going to say he is not an Egyptian. Brahmins can not be certain in such aspects, since they are already considered as 'outsiders' in the land they lived for 1,000s of years in the past.

So, as one can see, I don't make up things. I base my messages from facts.

I am not really interested in getting into any sort of arguments in this subject. As I always say, I have no axe to grind.

I am not even compelled to defend 'brahminism' or brahmins. I have no reason, since I may not be a brahmin to start with; I certainly had not lived like one!

Cheers!

 

[Nara]

.....I presume you include myself also in the aforesaid category and hence wish to express my views.

Dear Sangoim sir, if I may say so myself, I am the one who occupies a special place in Suraju06's mind, his ire was directed exclusively in my direction. However, your response is impeccable and a delight.

I don't know very much about Smartha tradition, but what little I know, I know they are no less caste conscious than SVs and perhaps much more compared to Thenkalai SVs. So, whatever I say about SV, I am pretty sure it holds doubly so for Smarthas.

I already cited the venerable Bhavad Ramanuja's own words from Sri Bhashya, (whom I hold in highest respect possible, in fact I love him for the practical stand he took with respect to caste) not to mention that of Adi Sankara, about the onerous consequences of simply allowing Vedic chants to fall into ears of a Shudra. These are from the most revered philosophical treatise of a large section of Brahmins. Further, we must also note that Madhwas, and their off-shoots like Gaudias, claim in their philosophical works that jeeva has Varna and gender. Yes, they believe there are male souls and female souls, and, there are Brahmana souls and Shudra souls. All these are from their philosophical works.

Swami Sri Desikan, the preeminent Acharya of Vadakalai SVs, in his magnum opus called Rahasya Thraiya Saram, says that however great a Vishnu Bhaktha, a Shudra is always Shudra, and must follow his Varna edicts, i.e. serve the other three varnas. To drive home this point, Desika says, "திருசுரபியானாலும் கோத்வம் கழியாதிறே" -- Chapter 25. That is, even if it is a temple cow, its cowness won't disappear. In other words, a Shudra is a Shudra, no matter what, nothing can change that. CLN sir, please note, to question this, according to SV theology, is to condemn oneself to irredeemable misery of samsara. CLN sir, I am invoking you here because I appreciate your point that our forefathers demand nothing less than reinventing our morals as times change -- a hat-tip to you sir.

Contrast all this with what குலசேகராழ்வார் says in பெருமாள் திருமொழி 2.3:

அரங்கன் கோயில் திருமுற்றம் சேறுசெய் தொண்டர் சேவடி செழுஞ்சேறு என்சென்னிக்கு அணிவனே.
I will proudly wear the mud from the devotee trodden ground of Sri Rangam temple.
​

Somewhere between the time of Azhvars and the Vadamas embracing SV, the truly reformatory message of Azhvars got hijacked.

Today, we have Brahminical matams proudly proclaim in the web, for all to see, that panchamas and dogs belong to the same group. We have much revered Brahminical mathams openly practicing caste supremacy, yes supremacy, not mutual respect. I have seen these in the first person, not once, but time and time again. At least the orthodox among the Brahmins subject themselves to hard life, and then they follow these narrow ideology for they know no better. But, look at the weekend Brahmins, who crave the good life secular India offers, but still cling to the supremacist ideology of Brahminism, the ideology that promotes such nonsense as Shudra by birth is Tamasic given to sloth.

Finally, about DK and EVR, the depravity of the present day leadership of this movement not withstanding, it is undeniable that it awakened a sense of self-worth among all Tamils, irrespective of caste. This, of course, is positive for those in lower rungs and downright despicable for those occupying the higher rungs of caste hierarchy. EVR knew that Brahminical icons must be broken to break the chain of bondage of ordinary decent people, and he went ahead and did just that. He was an iconoclast par excellence, so much so, even the pious NBs, who disagree with him in matters of piety, relish and admire him for his stance against the Brahminical supremacists.

Cheers!

 

[Nara]

....So, as one can see, I don't make up things. I base my messages from facts.

What fact are these? You are free to make up anything you want, but it is all in your mind. Cite my words if you can. But alas you can't, you can only make things up.

 

[Raghy]

What fact are these? You are free to make up anything you want, but it is all in your mind. Cite my words if you can. But alas you can't, you can only make things up.

I have explained the facts in post #87, which is clear for anyone with an open mind. Clearly brahmins are not seen as dravids; brahmins are seen as 'outsiders' by DK party and its off-shoots. These are facts. These are facts forged by DK party before my birth. So, I don't make it up. DK part had already done that; it may be quite possible, seperating brahmins and Tamils could be the latest 'party policy' for DK party.

After all, DK party's goal is to eradicate brahmins from Tamil Nadu, as openly mentioned by the very rational minded party leader k.Veeramani. Sri.Nara is only a DK party follower. I base my facts based on what the leader said.

Cheers!

 

[Nara]

... Sri.Nara is only a DK party follower. I base my facts based on what the leader said.

Raghy, this claim of yours proves how dishonest you are!! When did I ever say I am a follower of DK party, prove it if you can with my words. Otherwise you are nothing but a self-serving hatemonger.

 

[Raghy]

Raghy, this claim of yours proves how dishonest you are!! When did I ever say I am a follower of DK party, prove it if you can with my words. Otherwise you are nothing but a self-serving hatemonger.

If you are not a DK party member, all you have to say is, you are not one. (you may be just a DK party sympathiser). But you don't have to call me dis honest, self-serving hate monger etc. Do I smell personal attack here?
Am I touching a nerve, perhaps?

Cheers!

 

[Nara]

If you are not a DK party member, all you have to say is, you are not one. (you may be just a DK party sympathiser). But you don't have to call me dis honest, self-serving hate monger etc. Do I smell personal attack here?

Raghy, you may assume and accuse all that you want, but you are the one who went off the handle and assumed. I have no obligation to answer to all the depraved imaginations of hatemongers like you.<removed> I must stress the fact you have agreed to abide by the rules that have been set. It is sad that you have chosen to ignore the past incidents and most of all, the rules that have been put in place because of that. Hence your account is being temporarily banned for 7 days.

 

[Raghy]

Raghy, you may assume and accuse all that you want, but you are the one who went off the handle and assumed. I have no obligation to answer to all the depraved imaginations of hatemongers like you. You made an assumption about me, now it is your turn to put up or shut the f&#$ up.

So, if I assumed someone a party member of DK party, is it an accusation? Hey, DK is only a political party. Where is the accusation?

now it is your turn to put up or shut the f&#$ up.

:clap2:

Back to the topic - Does DK party include brahmins in Tamil population or not? as a DK sympathiser, you ought to know.

Cheers!

 

[sangom]

Sri.Sangom Sir,

Greetings. I am not saying, lower caste persons should not hold grudge against brahmins in Tamil Nadu; nor I am denying any discriminations. All I was trying to convey was, in Tamil Nadu also, Brahmins reduced discriminatory acts while some of them altogether gave it up. Since I do not have any quantifiable data, I am not able to state it stastically. There is a reason for mentioning about DK; although brahmins were giving up discriminatory acts anyway, DK kept the propaganda up as if brahmins were continuing discriminatory acts.

When we talk about brahmins in Tamil Nadu in the context of discriminating lower castes, in my opinion, we have to talk about DK too.

Cheers!

Dear Shri Raghy,

The truth is, as I said in some other thread, no movement succeeds - at least in India - unless it is based on a core, negative ideology. The example is India's attitude towards Pak (and vice versa); at the national level, of course, we will all agree that to differ from the GOI line is unpatriotic. But, just look at our govt., suspecting the Pak hand in anything and everything that happens here.

Also see what BJP did; slumbering for nearly 12 years, it could smell political ruling power only after the Ayodhya incident in 1992, an anti-Muslim sentiment much more than a pro-hindu act. If BJP wanted a pro-hindu act they could very well have built a tall, expansive temple outshining even Taj Mahal without trying to destroy the obsolete mosque, as near to it as might be allowed by rules; but they did not, they were damn sure about the exact spot where Kausalya gave birth to Rama!!

EVR or whoever his political advisors were, were shrewd enough to gauge how an anti-brahmin movement would be received in TN and launched it, to success. It may appear to be their evil designs, if viewed from the tabra pov even today, but to an impartial judge, it is also a measure of the anti-brahmin sentiments latent in the minds of all NBs of TN, just as the Ram Janmabhoomi incident is a measure of anti-muslim sentiment latent in the minds of most hindus.

The mistake, as Shri Kunjuppu points out more than once, lay in the smug overconfidence of the brahmin elites of pre-Independence Tamil Nadu like Sir C. Rajagopalachari and others who were indirect cronies of the british government and thought that no harm can come to them, under any circumstances. These brahmin elites were also most probably people with an aloof attitude, not having their ears to the ground, so to say. If only they had had more public contact (not mere public adulation in well-organised stages in sanitized atmosphere) they might have been able to sense the rumblings before the earth quaked to their utter dismay.

I therefore feel that there is no point in whining about Kazhakm's victory; we as tabras should try to castigate our brahmin leaders, or, even better than that, castigate ourselves for our political naivete as a social group.

 

[SwamiTaBra]

In Kerala the brahmins - both Namboodiris and TBs as also brahmins of other varieties like the Tulu brahmins, Madhva brahmins, Konkani brahmins, etc. - understood quickly, which way the wind was blowing, and adapted to the changing situations more admirably and quickly than their counterparts in TN by the time Independence approached.

In the Tamil heartland, nothing of the sort of incidences (allegedly perpetrated by brahmins in the 20th century) which you mention reportedly to taken place in T&S states. My father who has a soft corner for DMK and Karunanidhi (he is now in his mid 70s) has not spoken about such things having happened. Nor did anyone in the Tamarapani belt has reported such atrocities of the nature you relate. Thanjuvur dt. was most fertile ground for DMK in it early years. Both Veeramani and Karunanidhi hail from this region. I was told reliably by one relative of mine that Karunanidhi offered to publish the memoir of Semmangudi Srinivasa Iyer as govt.'s expense. (perhaps the affinity to fellow-being from the same region overrides his stance on brahmins.)

May be I should tap his sentiments to get over my indigence before he leave the scene.

I can vouch an incidence brahmins coming to the cause of pallars against other castes of hindus in the Thanjavur delta. Sri. Vivek plea is that these should not be ignored or whitewashed. Only the CPI remembers the Keezha Venmani massacre. The Dravidian parties and the Congress pretend as if nothing happened there.

I think you have inadvertently referred Rajaji, perhaps you intended to refer C.P. Ramaswami Iyer.

Rajaji definitely knew the pulse of the people well, though he did not command the mass appeal. I have spoken to quite a few people who knew Rajaji personally.

With regards,

 

[Vivek_V]

Sri Raghy - I take your word.

"Sow.Happy Hindu did not write anywhere in favour of DK agendas. There was a time, I had many discussions with Sow.HH, she only expressed her sincere appreciation towards common brahmins (the one's not connected to mutts or armed with power) in general as human-beings. There were messages she expressed such views in as many words. Sorry, It was more than 6 months ago..I don't know if I could dig them up. "

Duely noted. You don't have to dig anything up, I will take your word that she is not a DK supporter. And I have nothing to gain by believing bad things about HH, or Nara or anyone.

From her own opinion, Happyhindu did say that other NBs practicing casteism has got with them religiously following what brahmins wrote. In doing this she does seem to put the blame of casteism entirely on brahmins. Then Nara speaks of brahmins washing their hands off this issue.

Correct me if I am wrong, from what I can figure, the worst form of casteism brahmins followed has to do with their peculiar (to society) views of cleanliness, or what it means to be clean, which also has to do with them being a minority population that is vegetarian - having their own "brahmin only restaurants", or not allowing certain people into their house.

The worst forms, with violence however is followed by even other NB castes. Rich classes which have whole groups of workers under them who suffer for generations having to repay loans and begging for unpaid wages. By what justification should this blame go on brahmins?

Nara, and HH seem to be in agreement to say that even this has to be blamed on brahmins. They speak of Manu smriti, when brahmins wrote a whole lot of other things too. None of those rich classes which kept many workers under them and ill-treated them (not just in TN, but all of India) did so by reading Manu smriti, they did it on their own personal reasons. For that reason why didn't these cretins who ill-treater their workers read BG which asks a person to recognize Krishna in everyone?

It seems like excuses to pin this on brahmins and apparently justify the DK's "kill brahmin instead of snake" ideology, while they are ignoring the true nature of what is happening. Beyond this I feel those like Sangom who insist that their place as brahmins is to keep quiet, are misleading the whole community (with all due respect Sangom). He forgets is if we do that, we will continued to be looked as people who tacitly support it.

Regards,
Vivek.

 

[Vivek_V]

Sri Kunjuppu

"As a tambram, I could not help feeling that our community is put on a bad light here."

Obviously. This is of course the agenda of DK, and its loyalists.

"I wish to say, that our sense of difference, is so deeply ingrained, that for someone grown up outside of south india, it is very difficult to grasp how inbred are these prejudices. And more than out, how crude and cruel they appear. Elderly muslims with their constant beed counting do not appear to shun human contact. I know of no Christian or hindu NB with a built in aversion to contact with people of other communities, the way we have exercised it, in the name of madi or jaathi. "

I agree. This is one of the real reasons we are hated. But the atmosphere in TN was made worse by DK's propaganda against us. Let me draw a parallel to the perception of Jews in German society post the WW1, a war in which Jews served in German army too. The general opinion, was that Jews were saving themselves "unpatriotically" and were inconsiderate to the public at large because they used the economic downfall to become money lenders and generally put rates of interest. While large part of Jewish practices regarding money was questionable when seen in interest of society, the issue was not brought out. There was straight away hatred for them, and Tamil people are more sensible than the Germans of the time to not fall prey to such fascist propaganda. In any other country, DK's statement of "kill brahmin instead of snake" would have put them under a crime scanner.

What happened by WW2 needs no mention. While certainly there was a problem, this could have been brought to the open than spew hatred. As for casteism, all of the rural areas treat dalits badly - this however was not a concern for DK. I went to TN for a few days to accompany my mother for attending a wedding (the same visit in which I saw the white/European/American preist reading in Sri Rangam). In the house I stayed, I could notice the maid (of my uncle's house) was treated in no disrespectful manner. She came cleaned and left. Surely, they didn't keep her as part of the family, but I guess I didn't look down on that because even in Mumbai all maids do the house work and leave, they don't stay in the house with exception of houses where working (or even house staying) women need someone to take care of children.

"Mercifully, it is disappearing, and there may still be some hope for us. What is inbred in us for millenniums, will take a few generations to divest itself."

IMO brahmins wouldn't have gained the respect they did for "millenniums" if they behaved this way throughout. I agree these practices are wrong, I agree casteism practiced throughout society is wrong. But I think others have handled casteism actually, DK hasn't handled it.

Brahmins gained respect because of their much larger legacy which TN (NB, TB included) have been brainwashed to overlook in DK's propaganda.

In the very house I visited, which had my uncle with his parents, my uncle being my mother's cousin, I could only see my uncle supporting the DK. I feel most tamilians in TN don't understand that the message is a divisive one, not one to uplift anyone.

"Of our own accord, we will not change. It is more convenient and self justifying to believe a la mode of Vivek or Suraju or ShivKC. Such is human nature. Fortunately, this is a shrinking crowd, as it is apparent in many instances, if not all, that our next generation is more committed to egalitarian thinking than their ancestors."

Yes we are. Unfortunately Kunjuppu, we are made to look like people originally diverging from an evil brahmin culture, and coming up with something new and "unbrahmin" which is the perception we are not happy with. The people who fought casteism started the spread and teach the BG or about the Upanishads because these, which predate even the rhetoric of the mutts is an earlier legacy of brahmins.

The tamil society may treat brahmins among them individuallly good, but only those who learn to believe that them being "brahmin" is the worst thing that has happened to them. This is what my uncle thought because he has been taken into DK's thinking living on their salt. Why does Nara require to declare himself an ex-brahmin? Do you see on Muslim denouncing his faith even after all the organizations like Al-Qaeda etc, pervert the image of Muslims?

"Now I wonder, if this nasty comment is anti brahminism or in general attitude of the well-offs against the poor who have no bargaining tools. Definitely whatever the case may be, it is appalling at the absence of empathy. Would it be fair to say, what little empathy that we have, we reserve it only for our own clan, as a general rule?"

The orthodox TBs have a bias but these films spread a message against a community than to reveal the emotional undercurrents of why it happens. A good movie highlighting this issue, would be that which gives the opinion of people on why a bias is held and point out how holding so and so bias becomes offensive to others.

What the anti-brahmin movement didn't do was bring out reasons for the dissension in society to sort them, instead came to use those dissensions to drive a community away. The role of brahmins in TN society, when being a mixed bag, has been reduced to practicing casteism in the DK ideology. DK didn't work to spread a culture of education into the lowest castes or give them an identity, instead it worked to spread propaganda to have the brahmins exiled. Then Nara tells me brahmins are doing well when most TBs are outside TN never to return to their land ever again because of the DK government and its rhetoric.

"I think, if there is a general feeling among communities that the tambrams have given up in thought, word and deed, the worst evils of manu smriti, we can then take a high road, to point fingers at other communities who are still physically abusing the dalits."

Some of my friends who are dalits from Ambedkar's buddhist movement don't hold the type of negative opinions of brahmins I have noticed while discussing with some NBs. I hardly blame them though, thanks to the DK government vilification, and the same opinion boistered by the practices of the mutts, they hate brahmins.

"So,Till changes take place as to how we are perceived as a community, I think, we should keep mum."

This is where I strongly disagree. What you are saying is exactly what Sangom said too. We need to keep in mind two things:

1. Brahmins have fought against casteism, not just in modern times but even in ancient times. The very idea of ill-treating another person actually goes against our core philosophy.

2. If we don't attack casteism and allow it to vanish through other means (say by it becoming illegal), we don't restore our legacy or respectable place in society. Till the end of time, we will be seen as people we were forced to give it up, not that we wished to give it up seeing it for the evil it was. It still doesn't allow us to establish a legacy for ourselves and we will continue to be hated.

Keeping mum is the best way to continue to be hated and being seen in contempt - we will be seen as a criminal who was nabbed and surrendered. TBs should in time come to challenge the mutts, we should not become self-haters, our legacy goes way beyond untouchability, caste ill-treating or the mutts.

Regards,
Vivek.

 

[Raghy]

Sri. Vivek Sir,

Greetings. DK party is only a political party whose policies are discriminatory. Belonging to that party or sympathysing that party is not a bad thing per se. It is only a choice.

I have to be very careful in this message; I don't want this message come out as commentary about any member.

There are brahmins who like to safe guard scriptures as gospels, even if such scriptures are discriminatory towards other communities, even if such scriptures refuse equal opportunities to all the persons across the whole society. Everyone should oppose such scriptures. That lady member only expressed anger about the brahmins who wote such discriminatory scriptures and the brahmins who safe guard such scriptures. She clearly mentioned that she has an empathy for the common brahmins who have no power to change any of the actions of powerful brahmins.

When it came to reservation policy setbacks, she wanted to highlight the difficulty of all the students who miss out - be it brahmins or non-brahmins (mainly BCs. they suffer too).

She wanted vedic knowledge to be opened for all the persons irrespective of caste. Why shouldn't a dalit learn Agama rules and methods to conduct pooja sequences that are conducted in temples? It is secondary, whether that dalit would use it or not; but it should be available. Why not the mutts make that knowledge available to everyone? this was her huge question.

Sir, acharam (madi) is fine. In fact this lady mentioned about her own family following madi and acharam during purattasi month while conducting prayers. (My grand mother was a stickler for 'madi'; but if a harijan child is going to fall, that madi would not stop her from supporting that child).

I do'nt remember this lady blaming brahmins across the board for the voilence of other NBs.

Sri.Vivek Sir, your approach to the topic counts too. When you play your card very close to your chest, you may not expect your opponent to play a very easy game, can you? Whenever there are points to concede, one should concede graciously; then we can have meaningful conversations. If not, any conversation would stink, example can be seen in this same thread.

I request you not to group the members. Every message has its merits and demerits. Some messages are more deeper than they appear to be.

Personally I do not tolerate dishonest members. I have no respect for them.

This lady member was always honest in her messages. If she made an error in any of her message, I found her always open-minded to accept the error.

I believe in honesty. I respect honesty. That's why I wrote this message.

Cheers!

 

[ambes]

Thank u Sarma Sastrigal for the information