The Problem posed by Artificial Intelligence to the non believers

[sravna]

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AI or Artificial Intelligence is that branch of computer science that aims at producing human or superhuman level intelligence. The goal is far from being accomplished though. Once that is accomplished, which I think it would be for reasons I would explain shortly, then it would bring about a great revolution in the way we view ourselves. If thinking can be mechanised like any other task then we can easily replicate in huge numbers such thinking machines and indeed such machines would do a better job of improving themselves than we can. In a very short time we would be nowhere near such machines in intellectual capacity.

The reason I say AI is possible because thinking is something which can be divided into analytical and holistic. The former is more commonly considered as intelligence. Analytical thinking works according to logic and which I feel can be automated. Much of the thinking that happens in science is overwhelmingly using one's logical capabilities though science also needs inspiration but one that need not be great because we are concerned only with the physical world and so something which is the surface of reality.

So creating machines that think according to some rules though due to the complicated nature of the task, is daunting but nevertheless achievable. Holistic thinking on the other hand sees the connections and puts together the parts as a whole. I am sure if mimicking analytical thinking is formidable, then that of holistic thinking is next to impossible.

And that I think would be the crucial difference between the man and the machine. A machine is a isolated piece of totally physical entity and so disconnected from the rest of reality. A man on the other hand though may turn out to be inferior to many of the capabilities that a machine would possess in the future, is connected to the other realities and has a part, the soul, which is enduring in nature. The reality of a machine is only till there is the reality of the physical world.

So someone who thinks that souls are non existing, reduces himself to the status of a machine, and would not make sense when he talks about values. This is because when you talk about values and morals you are into the realm of holistic thinking, considering more, the benefit of the whole. Mechanized and analytical thinking goes against such thinking. The concept of soul can be arrived at only when one employs holistic thinking.

So in the future when there would be entities which would be way ahead of humans in every capability, what is the need for persons who would not be better in any aspect than such entities? So I would say that without bringing into the picture, values and all the higher aspects of life , the reality would seem so foolish and purposeless. For example, a species as intelligent as humans would possibly disappear without a trace by their own creation. I think the reality is not so inane.

 

[Visalakshi Ramani]

In the climax scene of WALL E the A.I would take over and we know the consequences.
Hope such things will happen ONLY in Science fiction and not in real life! :scared:

Wall-E - YouTube

 

[renuka]

So someone who thinks that souls are non existing, reduces himself to the status of a machine, and would not make sense when he talks about values. This is because when you talk about values and morals you are into the realm of holistic thinking, considering more, the benefit of the whole. Mechanized and analytical thinking goes against such thinking. The concept of soul can be arrived at only when one employs holistic thinking.

Very well said!

If there is no soul why bother even to have law and order?

In the case of an accident it is the driver of the car who is charged in court for reckless driving and not the car.

If a human is sans a soul that makes him no different from a machine so going by that grounds both the car and the driver should be charged for recklessness!LOL

Good topic keep it going!

 

[sravna]

If a human is sans a soul that makes him no different from a machine so going by that grounds both the car and the driver should be charged for recklessness!LOL

Good one

 

[sravna]

Very well said!

If there is no soul why bother even to have law and order?

In the case of an accident it is the driver of the car who is charged in court for reckless driving and not the car.

If a human is sans a soul that makes him no different from a machine so going by that grounds both the car and the driver should be charged for recklessness!LOL

Good topic keep it going!

Also, if the creator has to be blamed, then strictly speaking we will not responsible for our actions. So punishing somebody for a crime cannot be done on moral grounds but more on grounds of expediency. Once that moral rationale is gone it would be more a law of the jungle.

 

[sarang]

Even if the accident is due to mechanical or electrical defect in the vehicle, the owner or driver is blamed for inadequate maintenance.

Now I understand why my father sometimes called me 'jadam' and stopped admonishing further!!

In the case of an accident it is the driver of the car who is charged in court for reckless driving and not the car.

If a human is sans a soul that makes him no different from a machine so going by that grounds both the car and the driver should be charged for recklessness!LOL

Good topic keep it going!

 

[sravna]

Talking of responsibilities, I think we should make a distinction between the practical and the spiritual. God is the ultimate director of our destiny, it being at the spiritual level. The extent of our responsibility depends on the extent of our capability. We are endowed with intelligence and within its ambit we would be held responsible for our actions. The karma laws then take over and correct our direction if it is misguided and finally leads us to the right destination, IMO.

 

[suraju06]

The reason I say AI is possible because thinking is something which can be divided into analytical and holistic. The former is more commonly considered as intelligence. Analytical thinking works according to logic and which I feel can be automated.

The very division of thinking into analytical and holistic is a product of analytic thinking. If that analytical thinking process can reveal holistic thinking as coexistent with analytical thinking and as different from itself, we can conclude that both these can be understood holistically and then analysed also. If this appears to be confusing , then please read once again and then think.

Much of the thinking that happens in science is overwhelmingly using one's logical capabilities though science also needs inspiration but one that need not be great because we are concerned only with the physical world and so something which is the surface of reality.

Logical capabilities in the absence of cognition and awareness about the “I” that is driving the cognition process using logical abilities is insanity. Physical world being the surface of reality is just a way of stating the state of affairs. We do not know anything other than the physical world.

.

So creating machines that think according to some rules though due to the complicated nature of the task, is daunting but nevertheless achievable. Holistic thinking on the other hand sees the connections and puts together the parts as a whole. I am sure if mimickinganalytical thinking is formidable, then that of holistic thinking is next to impossible.

Just as logical and analytical abilities can be programmed into a machine, the cognition of holistic connectedness and cognition of a grand pattern (the chaos theory already speaks about this) can also be discussed. If an algorithm can be written to recognize and reproduce the wave pattern of some one’s speech to use that to listen to and answer to customer complaints over phone, a more complicated and voluminous programme can be written to recognize and identify the patterns and connectedness in the universe and to initiate a response. Today we are able to discuss “strange Attractors”, “Fractal Basin Boundaries”, “measurement of unpredictability” all in the same breath. “Evolution is chaos with feedback and the universe is randomness and dissipation”.

And that I think would be the crucial difference between the man and the machine. A machine is a isolated piece of totally physical entity and so disconnected from the rest of reality. A man on the other hand though may turn out to be inferior to many of the capabilities that a machine would possess in the future, is connected to the other realities and has a part, the soul, which is enduring in nature. The reality of a machine is only till there is the reality of the physical world.

This is only a fond wish. The machine is only as much isolated as a life with a body, and only as much disconnected from the rest of reality as the designer has intended. The reality of a machine as well the reality of a being are coterminus with their respective “ends” in this world. There is nothing superior about beings because we really know little about what happens to the soul.

So someone who thinks that souls are non existing, reduces himself to the status of a machine, and would not make sense when he talks about values. This is because when you talk about values and morals you are into the realm of holistic thinking, considering more, the benefit of the whole. Mechanized and analytical thinking goes against such thinking. The concept of soul can be arrived at only when one employs holistic thinking.

Values and morals are as much part of the logical assaying and picking part of the intellect as it is part of the larger holistic self interest in sustaining the life and universe.

So in the future when there would be entities which would be way ahead of humans in every capability, what is the need for persons who would not be better in any aspect than such entities? So I would say that without bringing into the picture, values and all the higher aspects of life , the reality would seem so foolish and purposeless. For example, a species as intelligent as humans would possibly disappear without a trace by their own creation. I think the reality is not so inane.

We need not worry. May be, new values and new ethical and moral principles will come and they may be even better ones-that is relatively speaking.

Cheers.

 

[sravna]

The very division of thinking into analytical and holistic is a product of analytic thinking. If that analytical thinking process can reveal holistic thinking as coexistent with analytical thinking and as different from itself, we can conclude that both these can be understood holistically and then analysed also. If this appears to be confusing , then please read once again and then think.

Yes you are right. As an addition, analytical thoughts can be derived from holistic thinking just as a part can be derived from the whole. A product of analytical thinking can be a product of holistic thinking but not necessarily vice versa.

Logical capabilities in the absence of cognition and awareness about the “I” that is driving the cognition process using logical abilities is insanity. Physical world being the surface of reality is just a way of stating the state of affairs. We do not know anything other than the physical world.

A correction. It is science that is ignorant of anything other than the physical world. And science definitely does not own exclusive rights over the truth about reality.

Just as logical and analytical abilities can be programmed into a machine, the cognition of holistic connectedness and cognition of a grand pattern (the chaos theory already speaks about this) can also be discussed. If an algorithm can be written to recognize and reproduce the wave pattern of some one’s speech to use that to listen to and answer to customer complaints over phone, a more complicated and voluminous programme can be written to recognize and identify the patterns and connectedness in the universe and to initiate a response. Today we are able to discuss “strange Attractors”, “Fractal Basin Boundaries”, “measurement of unpredictability” all in the same breath. “Evolution is chaos with feedback and the universe is randomness and dissipation”.

Here I am only saying how formidable the task is. Anyway good luck to the scientists in this endeavor.

This is only a fond wish. The machine is only as much isolated as a life with a body, and only as much disconnected from the rest of reality as the designer has intended. The reality of a machine as well the reality of a being are coterminus with their respective “ends” in this world.

Fond wish, yes I agree.

Values and morals are as much part of the logical assaying and picking part of the intellect as it is part of the larger holistic self interest in sustaining the life and universe.


We need not worry. May be, new values and new ethical and moral principles will come and they may be even better ones-that is relatively speaking.

It is like saying that a better value system than timeless values will emerge some time in the future.

 

[sangom]

In my humble view, the concept of "soul" as generally understood by many today, is rather erroneous. I strongly suspect that our great Acharyas like Shankara were very well aware of the true position but for the sake of human welfare in general, they kept the secret within very limited (and enlightened) circle.

I believe that there is no 'soul' inextricably bound to an individual's personality, in the way we are accustomed to think. Instead, there is one universal "Shakti" or force, which manifests as "Life" in all the living beings. But due to phenomena not yet known to human intellect, this force or Shakti is able to act only through the mediation of a cover created by our Karmas — both past & present,cumulatively — and hence each individual becomes unique and each individual gets to experience the world in accordance with the Karmic Law which appears to be universally applicable.

When a person dies, the above Shakti activating his/her physical body simply leaves the physical body and merges with the universal Shakti which is identical to the concept of "Brahmam" or 'Parabrahmam' in advaita. But the cover created by Karmas remains - invisible to human eyes in normal circumstances - and takes a fresh birth in accordance with the (unknown) Laws of Karma.

According to the above belief, there actually is no rebirth in the way we have been told so far. If a person A dies after doing certain good/bad karmas, the next birth as B is not exactly A but a new person B with the Karmic layer left behind by A at the time of his death and activated,once again, by the universal Shakti which manifests as Life.

Every person can interact with the outside world as well as to himself, only through the Karmic layer enshrouding the Life giving Shakti or Brahmam which colours the person's views and experiences in life. It will be seen that Adi Shankara's advaita philosophy said much the same as what is stated above but the Acharya recommended adherence to all the vedic disciplines of life to the people in general. If a person like Shankara had told the correct position, almost all of us would have thought "After all, "I" am not going to suffer for the mistakes I commit, so why bother? Let someone else suffer and go to hell." That would have meant complete social indiscipline. This truth can be made known to all & sundry only when all (or atleast majority of them) will become "Supermen" & "Superwomen" and try to lead a disciplined life.

Liberation or "Moksham" will mean wearing the Karmic layer thin till it disappears and will not cause another birth. All the advice which have been given by our Acharyas, and more importantly regarding the six enemies (kāma krodha lobha moha mada & mātsarya) is very important in wearing thin our Karmic layer.

There will, however, be no separate, outside GOD and each one of us will have to face the struggle of life himself/herself. This will, however, be the death-knell of all organized religions.

 

[sravna]

Dear Shri Sangom,

Welcome back.

1) What you say as karmic layers and the birth of a new person is IMO simply equivalent to the soul and the body respectively. The main purpose of a jivatma as I understand is to be subject to the laws of karma till it finally reaches liberation. So I think what you say as pointed out by yourself is what Shankara says. The laws of karma as I understand operate only to cleanse the soul so that it can become one with brahman.

2) The concept of brahman is equivalent to God though in advaita I think it is not so straightforward. IMO, the laws of karma guide the soul all along the path.

 

[sangom]

Dear Shri Sangom,

Welcome back.

1) What you say as karmic layers and the birth of a new person is IMO simply equivalent to the soul and the body respectively. The main purpose of a jivatma as I understand is to be subject to the laws of karma till it finally reaches liberation. So I think what you say as pointed out by yourself is what Shankara says. The laws of karma as I understand operate only to cleanse the soul so that it can become one with brahman.

2) The concept of brahman is equivalent to God though in advaita I think it is not so straightforward. IMO, the laws of karma guide the soul all along the path.

Dear Shri Shravna,

Thank you for the kind welcome. But my participation in TBF will be very much subject to my health which has now been burdened by a minor heart-attack as well, besides the many problems contracted along life's path.

I agree that what you say will be more intelligible and acceptable to people in general but there is some nuance in what I have written; in that there is no carry forward of the feeling of "I" or 'ahamkaara' beyond the death of the present personality. The "soul" which you mention, is just not there and instead there is only a Karmic layer which very much strikes a sympathetic cord with Shankara's concept of "adhyaasa". This karmic layer by itself cannot bestow "life" as we know it, to a physical body and that exactly is why it stands forsaken when the Life-giving Shakti leaves the physical body on a permanent basis - at the time of death. This Shakti is everything and is identical to the Parabrahmam in advaita.

I will leave this topic here, since here we are concerned with AI. Irrespective of which route we take — your system which is the time-honoured one or what I have just put forward — Man may create only 'Artificial Intelligence', but I do not think we are anywhere near to creating emotions artificially. Any machine which does not have the mechanism to ingest food, to extract the energy from the food and sustain and grow, and to emote, will not be able to replace humans. Of course, the machines with AI may cause widespread losses even to human lives, just as cars, trains, planes and ships - not to speak of many other machines and gadgets - cause death and destruction.

So far as I am concerned, belief/non-belief in God is primarily whether we should believe in a God outside of ourselves and I tend to believe, more and more as I grow older, that what manifests as Life in each one of us is the Supreme God. We are unable to 'experience' that God and so we resort to an 'outsider' God with all the ramifications attached to it.

 

[sravna]

Thank you for the kind welcome. But my participation in TBF will be very much subject to my health which has now been burdened by a minor heart-attack as well, besides the many problems contracted along life's path.

Sure Shri Sangom, I understand. Kindly take care of your health sir.

So far as I am concerned, belief/non-belief in God is primarily whether we should
believe in a God outside of ourselves and I tend to believe, more and more as I grow older, that what manifests as Life in each one of us is the Supreme God. We are unable to 'experience' that God and so we resort to an 'outsider' God with all the ramifications attached to it.

Very true Sir. The God inside us is what we need to bring out.

 

[zebra16]

Dear Shri Shravna,

Thank you for the kind welcome. But my participation in TBF will be very much subject to my health which has now been burdened by a minor heart-attack as well, besides the many problems contracted along life's path.

Namaste Sri Sangom,

Please take adequate care of your health and do not over-strain yourselves Sir. Please do participate in TBF, but only when health and other conveniences permit.

Regards

 

[Raji Ram]

Dear Sangom Sir,

Nice to see your posts in our forum. Please take care of your precious health.

Regards,
Raji Ram

 

[tks]

Sri Sangom - Sorry to hear about your health issues. I hope you are back to your usual health and the set back is behind you.


I am not active in the forum due to work commitments though I scan a topic or two now and then. It is nice to see familiar people continue posting now and then and new people joining the forum.

There is no soul (which has a biblical meaning) and somewhere someone translated Soul as Atma.
That is the only part I can really resonate with in your post

Take care of your health

Regards

 

[renuka]

Dear Sangom sir,

Please take care of your health.
Get well soon..take all your medications.

regards
renu

 

[sangom]

Dear TBF friends,

My sincere thanks to all of you for the welcome and your kind enquiries about my health.

A slight uneasiness in the chest led me to ECG and other tests and it showed that there is some abnormality in the ECG. My family doctor suggested that I avoid angiogram/angioplasty, etc., because he was not very sure whether my body would safely withstand those invasive procedures. So, as per his advice, I was under complete rest for ten days and then had ECG and echo-cardiogram. Since the 'ejection rate' (54 to 64%) is satisfactory, the cardiologist also recommended that I can continue my retired life-style and need not undergo any surgical procedure now. I am taking all the medicines regularly and observing all the precautions.

I hope to contribute to the TBF discussions according to my ability.

Thank you all once again from the bottom of my heart and I am sure your good wishes will protect me from any untoward development.

 

[ozone]

Dear Shri Sangom Sir,
Nice to see you back. I wish you get energised (and energise others) through your renewed participation.

Best wishes

 

[sangom]

Sri Sangom - Sorry to hear about your health issues. I hope you are back to your usual health and the set back is behind you.


I am not active in the forum due to work commitments though I scan a topic or two now and then. It is nice to see familiar people continue posting now and then and new people joining the forum.

There is no soul (which has a biblical meaning) and somewhere someone translated Soul as Atma.
That is the only part I can really resonate with in your post

Take care of your health

Regards

Thank you, Sir for your kind sentiments.

You say the term "soul" has a biblical meaning. This is new to me. Will you kindly shed some more light on this point, sir?

I am under the impression that the very same "Atma" (Jivatma) is supposed to take reebirth and go through "Samsaara". What I have stated does away with this; the Karma alone hunts for new births and attaches itself to the most suitable birth so that the results of those Karmas can be enjoyed in the new birth.

 

[jaisiyaraam]

Namaste Sangomji,

I am happy to see you back but at the same time sorry to know your health status. Please take care of your health Sir. You are in my prayers.

* I am not yet 75posts old to send you private message

With Regards,
Jai SiyaRaam

 

[ozone]

Dear Shri Sangom Sir,
You say:

I am under the impression that the very same "Atma" (Jivatma) is supposed to take reebirth and go through "Samsaara".

There is good enough reference to this in Kathopanishad. Sri Shankara himself has explained how the Atma enters another womb.

What I have stated does away with this; the Karma alone hunts for new births and attaches itself to the most suitable birth so that the results of those Karmas can be enjoyed in the new birth.

So, are you continuing with the above impression, or now dismissing it.
This is interesting. Do you have any material as reference to this? If yes, I would like to read more about it.

 

[sravna]

There are problems with karma being independent of a soul. First of all, how is the body selected in the assignment of karma? And next, what is the purpose of such karma if it is not tied to a soul?

 

[renuka]

In my humble view, the concept of "soul" as generally understood by many today, is rather erroneous. I strongly suspect that our great Acharyas like Shankara were very well aware of the true position but for the sake of human welfare in general, they kept the secret within very limited (and enlightened) circle.

I believe that there is no 'soul' inextricably bound to an individual's personality, in the way we are accustomed to think. Instead, there is one universal "Shakti" or force, which manifests as "Life" in all the living beings. But due to phenomena not yet known to human intellect, this force or Shakti is able to act only through the mediation of a cover created by our Karmas — both past & present,cumulatively — and hence each individual becomes unique and each individual gets to experience the world in accordance with the Karmic Law which appears to be universally applicable.

When a person dies, the above Shakti activating his/her physical body simply leaves the physical body and merges with the universal Shakti which is identical to the concept of "Brahmam" or 'Parabrahmam' in advaita. But the cover created by Karmas remains - invisible to human eyes in normal circumstances - and takes a fresh birth in accordance with the (unknown) Laws of Karma.

According to the above belief, there actually is no rebirth in the way we have been told so far. If a person A dies after doing certain good/bad karmas, the next birth as B is not exactly A but a new person B with the Karmic layer left behind by A at the time of his death and activated,once again, by the universal Shakti which manifests as Life.

Every person can interact with the outside world as well as to himself, only through the Karmic layer enshrouding the Life giving Shakti or Brahmam which colours the person's views and experiences in life. It will be seen that Adi Shankara's advaita philosophy said much the same as what is stated above but the Acharya recommended adherence to all the vedic disciplines of life to the people in general. If a person like Shankara had told the correct position, almost all of us would have thought "After all, "I" am not going to suffer for the mistakes I commit, so why bother? Let someone else suffer and go to hell." That would have meant complete social indiscipline. This truth can be made known to all & sundry only when all (or atleast majority of them) will become "Supermen" & "Superwomen" and try to lead a disciplined life.

Liberation or "Moksham" will mean wearing the Karmic layer thin till it disappears and will not cause another birth. All the advice which have been given by our Acharyas, and more importantly regarding the six enemies (kāma krodha lobha moha mada & mātsarya) is very important in wearing thin our Karmic layer.

There will, however, be no separate, outside GOD and each one of us will have to face the struggle of life himself/herself. This will, however, be the death-knell of all organized religions.

Reminds me of this:

On Conscience and Consciousness.


Two words often used by Swami namely, conscience and consciousness, can be understood on
the basis of the above discussion. As Swami Himself puts it:
Brahman [Paramatma] refers to the Universal Consciousness that is present in all beings. The
Consciousness that is present in the [individual] body is called [Jiva] Atma. It is called Conscience.


The distinction between Conscience and Universal Consciousness should be noted. Conscience is a reflection of the (Universal) Consciousness. When the Conscience (or the Atma) ultimately leaves the body., it merges in the Universal Consciousness and becomes one with It. The process may be likened


to the oneness that occurs when the air within a balloon joins the atmospheric air outside [which occurs
when the balloon bursts].
.............. The individual Self is the Jivatma. The Universal Self is the Paramatma. The individual Self
confined within a body is like air confined within a balloon. When the individual Self sheds its attachments
relating to the body and develops universal Love, it overcomes the confines of the body. It merges in
the vast, infinite Love. This merger is described as Mukti, Moksha or Liberation.



Taken from Nature of Atma

 

[renuka]

There are problems with karma being independent of a soul. First of all, how is the body selected in the assignment of karma? And next, what is the purpose of such karma if it is not tied to a soul?

Dear Sravna,

A human body has a physical body,subtle body,causal body and all its attaching layers/koshas etc not forgetting the mind.

All these sow the seeds of Karma and a body is designed as to allow what we sow to be reaped.

The soul is just a witness to the events.
The soul is ever free..but as long all the various bodies and coverings remains..karma goes on and the soul is within the confines of its coverings.
The soul is nothing but Compartmentalized Universal Consciousness.

Read what Sri Sangom wrote in his post about the concept of soul.He explains it very well.


Just to add..you asked :

And next, what is the purpose of such karma if it is not tied to a soul?

The soul a.k.a Compartmentalized Universal Consciousness animates the human body...making it a living entity.