The Problem posed by Artificial Intelligence to the non believers

[C RAVI]

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There are problems with karma being independent of a soul. First of all, how is the body selected in the assignment of karma? And next, what is the purpose of such karma if it is not tied to a soul?

Exactly!!

Karma does not get attached to the soul just as it feels which soul to be influenced by positive and negative karma.

It's soul that gets caught in the Net of the Karma modalities and then works towards getting out of it

As such, untill the absolute relief, continues to get influenced by the set codes of Karma laws and reaps the positive and negative impacts, having beein into specific actions, bearing specific physical body.

 

[sangom]

Dear Shri Sangom Sir,
You say:

There is good enough reference to this in Kathopanishad. Sri Shankara himself has explained how the Atma enters another womb.

So, are you continuing with the above impression, or now dismissing it.
This is interesting. Do you have any material as reference to this? If yes, I would like to read more about it.

Shri ozone,

When I wrote "I am under the impression...", I was trying to condense whatever I have read and understood from different sources.

I can find only the following from kaṭhopaniṣad:—

yonimanye prapadyante śarīratvāya dehina: |
sthāṇumanye:'nu saṃyanti yathākarma yathāśrutam ||
kaṭha. 2-II-7

Sankara's commentary on the first line above - which is relevant to our discussion - may roughly be translated as follows:—

Some ignorant fools, in order to assume new bodies, enter the womb with semen.

I do not think this explains the matter satisfactorily. It gives the discretion for deciding which body (foetus) to enter into, to the departed entity (jīva, soul, dehi whatever we may choose to call that). If so, how can we say that the Law of Karma operates and controls the samsāra? Will it not mean that the jīvas themselves decide what sort of rebirth it should take. Incidentally, if no other power like God comes in at this stage then what will God do for the jīva after it is born into this world?

What I tried to say, rather, was that the general impression is that the jīva or soul, tainted by and carrying the load of, all its past Karmas gets reborn according to laws of Karma. But nowhere I could so far find the exact mechanism of how this is achieved, except in one of Lobsang Rampa's books which is based on Tibetan Buddhism. (Since Lobsang himself is now discredited as a bogus or fraudulent personality, I do not want to advance his theory here.)

To answer your query, I still am under the same impression about what traditional Hindu accounts say. This line of reasoning bestows a sort of continuity for the feeling of "I-ness" (ahaṃkāra) so that people will be able to relate their misfortunes and troubles to their own Karmas of the past.

The line of argument put forward by me (and I think this agrees with the view put forward by Smt. Renuka in post #24) holds that the consciousness which resides in the new body, need not necessarily be the same one as that which activated the old one (just as we will not be able to fill a balloon with the same air as previously — in the example given in Smt. Renuka's post). Viewed from this angle, it will be seen that I am differing from the traditional pov.

As to your request for supporting material for my view, I may say that even the tat tvam asi stanzas in the chāndogya can be easily seen to mean the same view as mine.

 

[sravna]

Dear Sravna,

A human body has a physical body,subtle body,causal body and all its attaching layers/koshas etc not forgetting the mind.

All these sow the seeds of Karma and a body is designed as to allow what we sow to be reaped.

The soul is just a witness to the events.
The soul is ever free..but as long all the various bodies and coverings remains..karma goes on and the soul is within the confines of its coverings.
The soul is nothing but Compartmentalized Universal Consciousness.

Read what Sri Sangom wrote in his post about the concept of soul.He explains it very well.


Just to add..you asked :

The soul a.k.a Compartmentalized Universal Consciousness animates the human body...making it a living entity.

Dear Renuka,

IMO, the body is not responsible for the karma. It is the benighted "compartmentalized" soul that reaps what is sowed. It certainly does not seem neat to me that something lower in the rung such as the body bears the responsibility for the actions of a person. If it is the mind, IMO mind is nothing but the compartmentalized soul as it is said in the scriptures that mind merges with the soul when one is liberated. So in a realized person, mind and soul are not different because the corrupting factor which is the ego and attributed to the mind is not there. Conscience reigns supreme. So mind is nothing but the compartmentalized or the corrupted soul which seems separate from the soul till liberation.

Coming to Shri Sangom's speculations, IMO, there is no rationale for karma if there is no responsibility attached to one's actions. Why complicate things with karmic layers? It seems superfluous to me.

 

[sangom]

There are problems with karma being independent of a soul. First of all, how is the body selected in the assignment of karma? And next, what is the purpose of such karma if it is not tied to a soul?

Exactly!!

Karma does not get attached to the soul just as it feels which soul to be influenced by positive and negative karma.

It's soul that gets caught in the Net of the Karma modalities and then works towards getting out of it

As such, untill the absolute relief, continues to get influenced by the set codes of Karma laws and reaps the positive and negative impacts, having beein into specific actions, bearing specific physical body.

Dear Shri Sravna, Shri Ravi,

In my view Karma is a separate entity which is the root cause of saṃsāra. Soul which is the same as parabrahmam and is omnipresent, merely activates the physical body. (I would like to compare today's PC, its OS and the powersupply with the physical body, Karma and the jīva respectively.)

Shri Sravna's query, "how is the body selected in the assignment of karma?"

I feel there is no need to "assign" Karma to the physical body. If we link Karma to the physical bodywe will have to necessarily agree that all Karma will vanish once the physical body is 'dead' or, at any rate, when the body is destroyed by fire or time or eating by vultures (as in the case of the Parsi Towers of Silence).

what is the purpose of such karma if it is not tied to a soul?

I have stated above the difficulty in linking Karma to the body. Linking Karma to the soul is our traditional approach. But this poses a difficulty in regard to explaining the increase in world population (whence do all these new souls come?) and also in finding a satisfactory, logical answer to the question "what happened to the souls of all the extinct animal species, (not to talk about plant varieties which have vanished from the face of the earth?"

What Ravi says (It's soul that gets caught in the Net of the Karma modalities) is true, imo. But it (the soul) does not work towards getting out of the Karma entanglement, as he says. The soul or jīva is identical to the parabrahman and is therefore 'nirguṇa'. So, it does not have to get out of anything; it is for the living person with his I-consciousness to understand that all his troubles and problems in life are due to saṃsāra which in turn is caused by Karma and therefore to undo or get rid of the load of Karma.

 

[sarang]

I understand the soul may take any body - human, animal or plant. So the question of increase or decrease in population or extinction of species does not arise.

Linking numbers and arithmetic is perhaps not logical because even in modern scientific thinking, infinity is a different breed and its laws are different.

what is the purpose of such karma if it is not tied to a soul?

I have stated above the difficulty in linking Karma to the body. Linking Karma to the soul is our traditional approach. But this poses a difficulty in regard to explaining the increase in world population (whence do all these new souls come?) and also in finding a satisfactory, logical answer to the question "what happened to the souls of all the extinct animal species, (not to talk about plant varieties which have vanished from the face of the earth?"

 

[sravna]

Dear Shri Sangom,

The beauty of karma is due to the fact it maintains a balance by offsetting excess positive and excess negative, which are called good and bad karma respectively. Thus through a journey of innumerable births this is accomplished and the lessons are learnt from the cumulative experiences. If the above has to be accomplished there has to be a common factor through all these experiences. IMO, that is the role played by the soul.

The world started with no soul, I mean human soul. Then how did the human souls come into being? Because enough evolution happened in the life forms that the physical body was able to house a human soul. The human souls themselves would have been those at the previous kalpa IMO and found the body at some space and time in the universe. So there is no real increase in the number of souls.

But remember that there are plentiful more lower life forms than higher life forms. This is because the energies of evolved lower life forms come together to go to the next level or create the higher life form.

 

[tks]

Thank you, Sir for your kind sentiments.

You say the term "soul" has a biblical meaning. This is new to me. Will you kindly shed some more light on this point, sir?

I am under the impression that the very same "Atma" (Jivatma) is supposed to take reebirth and go through "Samsaara". What I have stated does away with this; the Karma alone hunts for new births and attaches itself to the most suitable birth so that the results of those Karmas can be enjoyed in the new birth.

Sri Sangom -

Soul in the Bible - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The above wikipedia reference is but one of the many sources to get an approximate sense of what is meant in biblical religions (Judaism, Christianity , ..)

About.com has an article that provides references as to why animals do not have souls ..

===
Then God said, "Let us make man in our image, in our likeness, and let them rule over the fish of the sea and the birds of the air, over the livestock, over all the earth, and over all the creatures that move along the ground." (Genesis 1:26, NIV)
Most interpreters of the Bible assume that man’s likeness to God and animals’ subservience to man implies that animals may have the "breath of life," nephesh in Hebrew, but not an immortal soul in the same sense as man’s.

===


In my view, Hindus over time have adopted the fatalistic notion of Kismat (as Vidhi) from Islam and even link that to Karma/Dharma models , idea of evil from Christianity, translate soul to Atma etc ..With 1000 years of Mogul domination and 250+ years of Christian domination such adoption is natural.

However if someone is interested in truth they have to question the basis for any of this even if it is interpreted so in Vedas by someone. It is not that Vedas are inerrant but it has to be discovered as such with understanding.

Life force itself is abstracted as Sukshma Sharira ... सूक्ष्म शरीर

This is often translated as soul and often identified with I, the subject
We tend to identify our gross body as I as well

But all these are not "I the subject"

In that sense there is no soul ..

Let me stop here - too huge a topic that in my humble view cannot be communicated/resolved in a forum.



Regards

 

[renuka]

Dear Renuka,

IMO, the body is not responsible for the karma. It is the benighted "compartmentalized" soul that reaps what is sowed. It certainly does not seem neat to me that something lower in the rung such as the body bears the responsibility for the actions of a person. If it is the mind, IMO mind is nothing but the compartmentalized soul as it is said in the scriptures that mind merges with the soul when one is liberated. So in a realized person, mind and soul are not different because the corrupting factor which is the ego and attributed to the mind is not there. Conscience reigns supreme. So mind is nothing but the compartmentalized or the corrupted soul which seems separate from the soul till liberation.

Coming to Shri Sangom's speculations, IMO, there is no rationale for karma if there is no responsibility attached to one's actions. Why complicate things with karmic layers? It seems superfluous to me.

Dear Sravna,


I will have to disagree with you.

I prefer using the word Atma as you will below why cos there is a slight difference between the terminology Soul and Atma.

The Atma is a mere witness to the happenings.

The body is not low as we think..in fact it actually houses the Atma and it is through the human body we realize God.
When we understand the nature of the body,mind and senses which act as instruments of comprehension for man one can understand the truth relating to the all pervasive Atma.

The body should be viewed as a Kshetra(Field) and within the body is the Kshetrajna(The Indwelling Knower) who oversees and is a witness.
So for all practical purposes the human body should not be viewed as lowly.
It is the instrument by which we can know God.(written with inputs from Sathya Sai Speaks)


I have taken this verse from Nature of Atma to help explain:

LIVING BEING = GROSS BODY + SUBTLE BODY + ATMA.


The gross body is easy to understand, being the biological entity consisting of the various
organs. The Subtle body, on the other hand, is a more difficult concept since we cannot see it
directly. It consists, among other things, of the mind and the oft-mentioned vital forces (the five
Praanas). The Atma, it must be remembered, is subtler than even the Subtle body. The Subtle
body derives energy from the "trapped" Atma, and in turn the vital forces cause the gross body to
perform various actions.

The term SOUL which is often used is nothing but the "Atma + Subtle body" combination.

It is because the Atma (or rather a "portion" of it) gets caught up with the
Subtle body, one often refers to the "portion" of the Atma in the body as the "embodied One"; it
is the same as the Self or the Jiva.


Dear Sravna...Mind is NOT the same as the compartmentalized Atma.

You said this :

Coming to Shri Sangom's speculations, IMO, there is no rationale for karma if there is no responsibility attached to one's actions. Why complicate things with karmic layers? It seems superfluous to me.​

Taken from Nature of Atma:

When we speak of man, we should consider him as the combination of the body, the mind and the Atma.

The body is an instrument for performing actions. Mind is the faculty which determines
what is right or wrong. The Atma is that which is ever pure, unchanging and permanent.


Lets call it MBA(Mind, Body and Atma)

The body is the instrument for the mind via senses to carry out actions and that forms Karma.
The Atma as mentioned above is ever pure, unchanging and permanent.
Atma is not responsible for Karma.

The Atma is temporarily "trapped" and till Karma is exhausted... the Atma is "confined" and not free yet to merge with the Universal Consciousness.

Ok lets take a simple example.

Just imagine a father is staying in a house with his son.
The son does a bad deed and gets a bad name.
The father who is staying with him has NOT done a bad deed but as long as his son stays with him he too has to bear the consequences of his son's action even though he is innocent.

So same way..as long as the Body and Mind keep on creating Karma the Atma has no choice but to follow from birth to birth till all Karma is exhausted even though the Atma is NOT involved in any of the actions.

Atma is like a electric current that flows through colored bulbs.
Green bulb produces green light and blue bulb produces blue light.
The electric is just the power supply ..it does not color the light.

So same way too Atma just animates the body with the help of the Subtle body and is not responsible for coloring our actions.

 

[C RAVI]

Dear Sravna,



The body is the instrument for the mind via senses to carry out actions and that forms Karma.
The Atma as mentioned above is ever pure, unchanging and permanent.
Atma is not responsible for Karma.

The Atma is temporarily "trapped" and till Karma is exhausted... the Atma is "confined" and not free yet to merge with the Universal Consciousness.


So same way..as long as the Body and Mind keep on creating Karma the Atma has no choice but to follow from birth to birth till all Karma is exhausted even though the Atma is NOT involved in any of the actions.

Atma is like a electric current that flows through colored bulbs.
Green bulb produces green light and blue bulb produces blue light.
The electric is just the power supply ..it does not color the light.

So same way too Atma just animates the body with the help of the Subtle body and is not responsible for coloring our actions.

Dear Renuka,

I have totally a different understanding..

Atma is not falwless and is not subjected by the actions of the body perfromed by its arms/limbs and Mind.

We should not blame our physical body and our brain for the accummulated Karma. Atma operates in subtle manner and thereby is the couse of our subtle conscience/consciousness and our mind/sub conscious mid.

All our thoughts and deeds are primarily influenced by our inner self consciousness and that's how we can not cheat/fool/conceal our motives and our intentions from ourselves.

The atma goes through the realization process and attempts to work towards purificatioin. Untill Atma succeeds in ataining total realization/purification, it continues to undergo brith-death-birth cycle and in the process gets destined to possess specific physical appearance/body perfectly formed/deformed, under specific circumstances/environment and in specific place.

By remarking Atma as pure, we can only take it in the sense that, Atma matters more or the only factor than the mere phsycial body and Atma is the potent energy that alone need to be modulated and refined to realize the absolute blilss, get rid of birth-death-birth cycle and get dissolved with the supreme consciousness, once for all.

The physical body with the instructions of our gross brain performs, acts and reacts as per what our internal consciousness is provoking us and this internal consciousness is what is our Atma, that continues to keep energizing and provoking us to the extent it gets moderated/matured/realized itself.


That's how the Atma after shedding its physical form/body reamains intact as it is and as it has composed/learned/determined/yearned/realized etc, possess inherent qualities and takes birth again with its inborn qualities and sub conscius mind, untill it reaches the highest level, to be qualified for liberation/merger with with supreme universal consciousness.

 

[C RAVI]

What Ravi says (It's soul that gets caught in the Net of the Karma modalities) is true, imo. But it (the soul) does not work towards getting out of the Karma entanglement, as he says. The soul or jīva is identical to the parabrahman and is therefore 'nirguṇa'. So, it does not have to get out of anything; it is for the living person with his I-consciousness to understand that all his troubles and problems in life are due to saṃsāra which in turn is caused by Karma and therefore to undo or get rid of the load of Karma.

Shri Sangom,

Thank you for sharing your valuable imputs.

Sir, do you mean to say that "I-consciousness" is totally differnet than the Atma itself? Such that, you are saying, the living person with "I-consciousness" has to understand "samsara" as the couse of the events of his/her life. And as such, the person has to undo or get rid of the load of karma and Help the Atma in him/her to be relieved from his/her foolishness?

What I understand about Atma and Karma, I have shared in my previous post with Renuka.

 

[ozone]

I am trying to summarise what Shri Sangom Sir is saying:

The reference to the I implies Atma. But Atma is not distinct or distinguishable. So, when an Atma enters a body it does so because of a birth (or its creation). When Atma leaves it merges with the Universal Consciousness. However the Karma has to find another body and when this happens, Atma again enters such a body. Now since Atma is non distinguishable like the air in the balloon example, what now enters this body of the previously left over Karma is not the same Atma that which exited previously. So, the 'I' here does not refer to the same Atma which was party to this birth because of the previous birth's Karma.

Let me know if my understanding is correct.

 

[C RAVI]

"I" = ATMA

ATMA carries this "I" with it as per its understanding / maturity / perceptions / realizations / yearning etc.

When "Ravi" (myself) dies, his ATMA/"I" would get into other apt physical body, carrying the same "I", under certain circumstances/environment, family and place, as per the loads of Kamra accumulated by ATMA/"I', having been performed varies deeds as per the motives of ATMA/"I"

The only thing is, that new body of this ATMA/"I" may be identified by a different name and with different intellect levels.

 

[renuka]

Dear Renuka,

I have totally a different understanding..

Atma is not falwless and is not subjected by the actions of the body perfromed by its arms/limbs and Mind.

We should not blame our physical body and our brain for the accummulated Karma. Atma operates in subtle manner and thereby is the couse of our subtle conscience/consciousness and our mind/sub conscious mid.

All our thoughts and deeds are primarily influenced by our inner self consciousness and that's how we can not cheat/fool/conceal our motives and our intentions from ourselves.

The atma goes through the realization process and attempts to work towards purificatioin. Untill Atma succeeds in ataining total realization/purification, it continues to undergo brith-death-birth cycle and in the process gets destined to possess specific physical appearance/body perfectly formed/deformed, under specific circumstances/environment and in specific place.

By remarking Atma as pure, we can only take it in the sense that, Atma matters more or the only factor than the mere phsycial body and Atma is the potent energy that alone need to be modulated and refined to realize the absolute blilss, get rid of birth-death-birth cycle and get dissolved with the supreme consciousness, once for all.

The physical body with the instructions of our gross brain performs, acts and reacts as per what our internal consciousness is provoking us and this internal consciousness is what is our Atma, that continues to keep energizing and provoking us to the extent it gets moderated/matured/realized itself.


That's how the Atma after shedding its physical form/body reamains intact as it is and as it has composed/learned/determined/yearned/realized etc, possess inherent qualities and takes birth again with its inborn qualities and sub conscius mind, untill it reaches the highest level, to be qualified for liberation/merger with with supreme universal consciousness.

Dear Ravi,

I guess my understanding is totally different from yours but anyway it's a good exchange of thoughts here.
Let's wait for Sravna and Sangom Ji to comment.

 

[sangom]

I am trying to summarise what Shri Sangom Sir is saying:

The reference to the I implies Atma. But Atma is not distinct or distinguishable. So, when an Atma enters a body it does so because of a birth (or its creation). When Atma leaves it merges with the Universal Consciousness. However the Karma has to find another body and when this happens, Atma again enters such a body. Now since Atma is non distinguishable like the air in the balloon example, what now enters this body of the previously left over Karma is not the same Atma that which exited previously. So, the 'I' here does not refer to the same Atma which was party to this birth because of the previous birth's Karma.

Let me know if my understanding is correct.

Shri ozone,

What you have written reflects the views given by me.

When we swear by the mahāvākyas which all say "That thou art", "I am Brahman","This Self (ātman) is Brahman","Consciousness is Brahman", etc., it does not look right to say, at the same time, that it is the ātmā which is responsible for Karma and it is the one that reaps the fruits of Karmas. According to advaita also it is the parabrahman covered by māyā as a layer, which becomes the jīvātmā or the ātmā as we say in these discussions. Therefore, I feel it is more plausible and acceptable to say that the unsullied Parabrahman exists in each living being but is "conditioned", "constrained" or "coloured" by the accumulated Karmas into behaving in certain ways only and becomes incapable of changing its ways by itself.

Once we logically accept the above scenario, then we have to make effort/s to rub off or eraze all the accumulated Karmas within us. AFA I have read and understood, this can be achieved if one can remove the ṣaḍvairis or six enemies (kāma, krodha, etc.) completely. We will then be able to experience the pure Brahman which resides within us and this is the state of jīvanmukti as per advaita.

 

[கால பைரவன்]

Shri ozone,

What you have written reflects the views given by me.

When we swear by the mahāvākyas which all say "That thou art", "I am Brahman","This Self (ātman) is Brahman","Consciousness is Brahman", etc., it does not look right to say, at the same time, that it is the ātmā which is responsible for Karma and it is the one that reaps the fruits of Karmas. According to advaita also it is the parabrahman covered by māyā as a layer, which becomes the jīvātmā or the ātmā as we say in these discussions. Therefore, I feel it is more plausible and acceptable to say that the unsullied Parabrahman exists in each living being but is "conditioned", "constrained" or "coloured" by the accumulated Karmas into behaving in certain ways only and becomes incapable of changing its ways by itself.

Once we logically accept the above scenario, then we have to make effort/s to rub off or eraze all the accumulated Karmas within us. AFA I have read and understood, this can be achieved if one can remove the ṣaḍvairis or six enemies (kāma, krodha, etc.) completely. We will then be able to experience the pure Brahman which resides within us and this is the state of jīvanmukti as per advaita.

I read your posts on this thread with interest. I admit my understanding on these matters is limited. I am yet to comprehend this theory completely. For example, as per your theory, the soul is not responsible for karma. Then when you say "accumulated Karmas", who or what accumulates these karmas? Also, when you mention "eraze all the accumulated karmas within us", who or what erazes the karmas? Please note here that I am not asking how karmas are accumulated or erazed. I am asking whether this karma is attached to an entity and has an individual character or not, as per this theory. Also, when you say "we will then be able to experience the pure brahman which resides wihin us", whom does "we" and "us" represent? Is it the body?

 

[renuka]

Also, when you mention "eraze all the accumulated karmas within us", who or what erazes the karmas?

The answer to this is found in the Geeta.
We ourselves can "erase" our Karma through our own Mind and Body in order to reveal the ever pure Atma.


Chapter 6. Sankhya-yoga

[FONT=Arial,Helvetica]TEXT 5​

[/FONT]​

​

uddhared atmanatmanam
natmanam avasadayet
atmaiva hy atmano bandhur
atmaiva ripur atmanah

"Let a man raise himself by himself, let him not lower himself; for he alone is the friend of himself, he alone is the enemy of himself."

​

​

​

 

[tks]

I read your posts on this thread with interest. I admit my understanding on these matters is limited. I am yet to comprehend this theory completely. For example, as per your theory, the soul is not responsible for karma. Then when you say "accumulated Karmas", who or what accumulates these karmas? Also, when you mention "eraze all the accumulated karmas within us", who or what erazes the karmas? Please note here that I am not asking how karmas are accumulated or erazed. I am asking whether this karma is attached to an entity and has an individual character or not, as per this theory. Also, when you say "we will then be able to experience the pure brahman which resides wihin us", whom does "we" and "us" represent? Is it the body?

Sri KB

Karma/Dharma arises with the sense of 'doership' which is associated with free will based actions and is always present only for the sense of limited self.

This sense of limitation and sense of doership is absent while knowledge of any kind happens (recognizing that knowing is not an act) or in deep sleep or when there is an understanding that we already are 'whole'..

In the Karma/Dharma model the concept of erasing does not exist though the possibility of disowning is possible and this happens via knowledge that sense of doership is not the real I

You have asked excellent questions indeed.

In my view, a forum such as this can provide opportunities for some discussions but tend to leave us with more questions than answers.

If one is truly committed to knowing the truth of ourselves and this universe (multiverse..), and have the capacity for analytic and abstract thinking, and endowed with Shradda to expend the effort then with the help of a right teacher it is possible to attain a compellingly accurate and satisfactory understanding.

In the absence of above conditions our human mind (especially of Hindus) tend to make things up and feel temporarily good using the terms borrowed from Vedic descriptions ..

 

[கால பைரவன்]

The answer to this is found in the Geeta.
We ourselves can "erase" our Karma through our own Mind and Body in order to reveal the ever pure Atma.

I apologize if my questions appear juvenile.

I read your post# 33, which helped answer some of questions. Your explanations seem to line up with Sangom's theory, except Sangom alludes to a karmic layer, which, according to this theory, is responsible for trapping the atma inside a body. If that is the case, where does the question of "our" karma arise at all?

To make it clear, my question is: Is there any individual character to karma? Is there anything like your karma or my karma etc...

 

[renuka]

I apologize if my questions appear juvenile.

I read your post# 33, which helped answer some of questions. Your explanations seem to line up with Sangom's theory, except Sangom alludes to a karmic layer, which, according to this theory, is responsible for trapping the atma inside a body. If that is the case, where does the question of "our" karma arise at all?

To make it clear, my question is: Is there any individual character to karma? Is there anything like your karma or my karma etc...

Dear sir,

The "mine" and "thine" feeling is there becos of the Ahankara portion in our Antahkarana.
So till all layers that shroud the Atma is there the feeling of "Mine" and "Thine" will be present.

So the word "Our"/"Mine"/"Thine" Karma denotes the actions/outputs preform by the Mind with the Body as an instrument.
The Chitta portion of the Antahkarana records each event in our births..its a Karmic Microchip which is carried from birth to birth.
So technically the Karma belongs to "us" since the Ahankara still exists.

I have to touch upon death a little here to help explain.
Upon death the Subtle Body along with the "trapped" Atma leaves the Physical Body.
The Subtle body after a suitable period of time enters a new Physical body designed accordingly to the Karmic data stored in the Chitta.

Note: Ahankara is described as Ego in English.
Not to be confused with being egoistic or show offish.
Ego/Ahankara is "I am the Doer " feeling.

Taken from Nature of Atma:

The Subtle body is not visible to the eye. When a person dies, his Subtle body (inclusive of the 'trapped' Atma) decouples from the gross
body and 'floats away" - of course, this cannot be seen since the entity escaping is subtle
and beyond the senses. After the lapse of a suitable interval of time, the Subtle body now
seeks association with a new infant body, and thus it is that the person is reborn.

The "recipe" for escaping from the cycle of birth and death should now be clear -the bond
between the Atma and the Subtle body must be broken, and the key to this is the permanent
dissolution of the ego. Ultimately, all the various paths and spiritual exercises or Sadhanas
prescribed boil down to just this - destroying the ego and breaking the bond! And when this bond
between the Atma and the Subtle body is broken, one is said to be liberated. For the bond to be
broken, one must, as Krishna says, essentially conquer the mind/self with the Self. Once the
conquest is successful, thereafter one just waits out till the body dies. This time, however, there
is no Subtle body to keep the Atma trapped as before and it is all over! The balloon bursts and
the trapped air merges forever with the atmosphere outside. Swami often stresses that the
human form is given so that one may use the opportunity to cut loose for ever.

As He puts it:
You are born so that you may not be born again; you die so that you may not die again!

Ok now coming to your question of " Is there any individual character to karma? Is there anything like your karma or my karma etc..."

Off course there is..my Karma and your Karma differs since your Mind and Body differs
from mine .
Your thoughts, words and deeds will differ from mine and hence the by product of these that is Karma will certainly differ.

We only have one common ground..that is the Atma.
Since Atma is nothing but the "Trapped" Universal Consciousness.

So in the race who sheds all the layers faster and which "trapped" Atma gets released from it's confinement depends on how we succeed to shed our Karma and every fibre of the shroud that covers the Atma.

 

[sangom]

I apologize if my questions appear juvenile.

I read your post# 33, which helped answer some of questions. Your explanations seem to line up with Sangom's theory, except Sangom alludes to a karmic layer, which, according to this theory, is responsible for trapping the atma inside a body. If that is the case, where does the question of "our" karma arise at all?

To make it clear, my question is: Is there any individual character to karma? Is there anything like your karma or my karma etc...

Shri KB sir,

Yours is a very relevant question and is not at all juvenile, imo. The confusion has been caused because of my inability to explain lucidly.

In my view (imagination, you may say, because ordinary humans do not have the ability to go beyond what their sense organs enable them to experience) this 'Karmic layer' may be likened to the "urban air pollution" phenomenon of today. The pollutants in this case are not "attached" to anything (air, earth's surface, the people who live in those urban areas or even the biological systems existing in those urban centres). But the pollutants make their presence felt and cause ozone depletion and the ozone hole as well. I tend to believe that in a similar manner the Karmic layer exists between the jīvātmā which resides in, and also actuates all our senses and mind & intellect, on the inside, and the gross physical body on the outside. If one is very particular about determining to which this Karmic layer is "attached" it will be seen that it is the physical body which is more appropriate, since we have the mahāvākya "prajñānaṃ brahma ("Consciousness is Brahman") in the aitareyopaniṣad.

imo, there is no individual characteristic to this Karmic layer which our ordinary sense perception can distinguish. When we say, in loose talk, 'your karma', 'my karma' etc., what we are referring to is the Karmic layer or load with which you (and I) have taken our present births. Beyond that there is no allusion to 'your past births' or 'my past births' etc. (To my small and inexperienced mind, the example which readily comes to mind is from my banking experience. It is common in banks to talk about 'pending cases'; in fact weekly/ fortnightly reports had to be submitted to our boss in this regard. Often my 'pending cases' will include all those cases which had been kept pending by the previous staff member (clerk or officer) in whose seat I was posted by Office Order, plus whatever cases were received during my tenure in that seat which I could not dispose off. Same thing applies to 'your pending cases' and this language is understood clearly. In a similar manner, my Karma will comprise of all the karmas - of whosoever had lived earlier and left the Karmic layer which was the cause of a human being 'sangom' being born, plus whatever karmas I have performed during this life and whose results have not yet been experienced.)

I read your posts on this thread with interest. I admit my understanding on these matters is limited. I am yet to comprehend this theory completely. For example, as per your theory, the soul is not responsible for karma. Then when you say "accumulated Karmas", who or what accumulates these karmas? Also, when you mention "eraze all the accumulated karmas within us", who or what erazes the karmas? Please note here that I am not asking how karmas are accumulated or erazed. I am asking whether this karma is attached to an entity and has an individual character or not, as per this theory. Also, when you say "we will then be able to experience the pure brahman which resides wihin us", whom does "we" and "us" represent? Is it the body?

"who or what accumulates karmas?" — The successive living forms which are caused and occupied by a certain Karmic covering. This covering undergoes changes until all the Karmas have been experienced and the layer itself vanishes; thereafter it is incapable of giving rise to a new birth. "Samsaara" then ends for that Karmic layer (and by implication, to the last living being occupied by that layer).

"who or what erazes the karmas?" — I am sorry to say that I have only the advice of our great ācāryas to cite for this because we just don't know the true remedy for Karmas. What Smt. Renukaji has written, from BG, are relevant. Shri tks' suggestion about a proper teacher is also correct, but in today's world a good teacher is seldom found. I personally feel that the removal of the six enemies (to spiritual progress) mentioned in our scriptures (kāma, krodha, lobha, moha, mada, mātsarya)will definitely be the first step.

when you say "we will then be able to experience the pure brahman which resides wihin us", whom does "we" and "us" represent? Is it the body? — It is not the body but the "I"-awareness residing within us (the antaḥkaraṇa) which usually sees the outside world, will then be capable of turning inwards and 'experience' the brahman residing therein. But this is a very long process and may take many births to achieve.

 

[renuka]

Shri KB sir,

Yours is a very relevant question and is not at all juvenile, imo. The confusion has been caused because of my inability to explain lucidly.

In my view (imagination, you may say, because ordinary humans do not have the ability to go beyond what their sense organs enable them to experience) this 'Karmic layer' may be likened to the "urban air pollution" phenomenon of today. The pollutants in this case are not "attached" to anything (air, earth's surface, the people who live in those urban areas or even the biological systems existing in those urban centres). But the pollutants make their presence felt and cause ozone depletion and the ozone hole as well. I tend to believe that in a similar manner the Karmic layer exists between the jīvātmā which resides in, and also actuates all our senses and mind & intellect, on the inside, and the gross physical body on the outside. If one is very particular about determining to which this Karmic layer is "attached" it will be seen that it is the physical body which is more appropriate, since we have the mahāvākya "prajñānaṃ brahma ("Consciousness is Brahman") in the aitareyopaniṣad.

imo, there is no individual characteristic to this Karmic layer which our ordinary sense perception can distinguish. When we say, in loose talk, 'your karma', 'my karma' etc., what we are referring to is the Karmic layer or load with which you (and I) have taken our present births. Beyond that there is no allusion to 'your past births' or 'my past births' etc. (To my small and inexperienced mind, the example which readily comes to mind is from my banking experience. It is common in banks to talk about 'pending cases'; in fact weekly/ fortnightly reports had to be submitted to our boss in this regard. Often my 'pending cases' will include all those cases which had been kept pending by the previous staff member (clerk or officer) in whose seat I was posted by Office Order, plus whatever cases were received during my tenure in that seat which I could not dispose off. Same thing applies to 'your pending cases' and this language is understood clearly. In a similar manner, my Karma will comprise of all the karmas - of whosoever had lived earlier and left the Karmic layer which was the cause of a human being 'sangom' being born, plus whatever karmas I have performed during this life and whose results have not yet been experienced.)



"who or what accumulates karmas?" — The successive livinf forms which are caused and occupied by a certain Karmic covering. This covering undergoes changes until all the Karmas have been experienced and the layer itself vanishes; thereafter it is incapable of giving rise to a new birth. "Samsaara" then ends for that Karmic layer (and by implication, to the last living being occupied by that layer).

"who or what erazes the karmas?" — I am sorry to say that I have only the advice of our great ācāryas to cite for this because we just don't know the true remedy for Karmas. What Smt. Renukaji has written, from BG, are relevant. Shri tks' suggestion about a proper teacher is also correct, but in today's world a good teacher is seldom found. I personally feel that the removal of the six enemies (to spiritual progress) mentioned in our scriptures (kāma, krodha, lobha, moha, mada, mātsarya)will definitely be the first step.

when you say "we will then be able to experience the pure brahman which resides wihin us", whom does "we" and "us" represent? Is it the body? — It is not the body but the "I"-awareness residing within us (the antaḥkaraṇa) which usually sees the outside world, will then be capable of turning inwards and 'experience' the brahman residing therein. But this is a very long process and may take many births to achieve.

Dear Sangom Ji,

You have touched upon the concept of Collective Karma and Individual Karma in your reply when you are speaking about Karmic Layers.

I have this info regarding Collective Karma which could help us understand it better.


Taken from the article:

Collective Karma

Theosophy:- Karma


Before completing this imperfect study we must consider what is termed Collective Karma, the complex into which are woven the results of the collective thoughts, desires and activities of groups, whether large or small.

The principles at work are the same, but the factors are far more numerous, and this multiplicity immensely increases the difficulty of understanding the effects.

The idea of considering a group as a larger individual is not alien from modern science, and such larger individuals generate karma along lines similar to those which we have been studying. A family, a nation, a sub-race, a race, are all but larger individuals, each having a past behind it, the creator of its present, each with a future ahead of it, now in course of creation.

An ego coming into such a larger individual must share in its general karma; his own special karma has brought him into it, and must be worked out within it, the larger karma often offering conditions which enable the smaller to act.

 

[zebra16]

imo, there is no individual characteristic to this Karmic layer which our ordinary sense perception can distinguish. When we say, in loose talk, 'your karma', 'my karma' etc., what we are referring to is the Karmic layer or load with which you (and I) have taken our present births. Beyond that there is no allusion to 'your past births' or 'my past births' etc. (To my small and inexperienced mind, the example which readily comes to mind is from my banking experience. It is common in banks to talk about 'pending cases'; in fact weekly/ fortnightly reports had to be submitted to our boss in this regard. Often my 'pending cases' will include all those cases which had been kept pending by the previous staff member (clerk or officer) in whose seat I was posted by Office Order, plus whatever cases were received during my tenure in that seat which I could not dispose off. Same thing applies to 'your pending cases' and this language is understood clearly. In a similar manner, my Karma will comprise of all the karmas - of whosoever had lived earlier and left the Karmic layer which was the cause of a human being 'sangom' being born, plus whatever karmas I have performed during this life and whose results have not yet been experienced.)

Sir, I have a slight non-understanding or difference of opinion on this aspect.

I feel there is an individual characteristic to this karma. Pl permit me to expand on the "pending case example" propounded by you (a very good example). No doubt the pending cases are the accumulation of my predecessors as also by me. Now at some point this "pending case" explodes and if I am that unfortunate person at that time, it explodes in my face.

For eg. during the Harshad Mehta case of Bank Securities fraud. the system was so overloaded that RBI was not in a position to make the changes due to transfer of government securities in the SGL ledger (also on account of non-availability/non-implementation of computerisation policy). Resultantly the bankers adopted the system of issue of "Bankers Receipt" which had many loopholes to make the fraud possible. The bankers receipt had come into existence at least two years before the scam exploded.

If I was the person at the receiving end when the scam exploded, and had to undergo all the trials and tribulations, this karma was "individually characterized" for me, whereas the others before me who had started and followed this system or those who were in other departments had escape without any stigma attached to them. But for my "karmic influences" (of the past), I probably would have not been placed in the unfortunate situation.

 

[sravna]

Sorry folks, I was away from my computer for the past two days and so was not able to respond promptly.

Shri Sangom and Renuka both have similar views regarding the karma theory. So I am addressing them with my objections.

Shri Sangom says that a common karmic layer is present and the question of karma being attached to a soul is not there, as there is no individual soul. My question is, if as Shri Sangom says that all the karmas, good and bad are experienced then how is this theory conceptually different from the individual soul theory. If you are experiencing the effects of all the karmas then it should be according to some laws. In some way, a record is kept to ensure that all the karmas are experienced by the "I-consciousness". Is it not the same as saying that a soul is responsible for its actions? Only you name it as I-consciousness.

 

[C RAVI]

Sorry folks, I was away from my computer for the past two days and so was not able to respond promptly.

Shri Sangom and Renuka both have similar views regarding the karma theory. So I am addressing them with my objections.

Shri Sangom says that a common karmic layer is present and the question of karma being attached to a soul is not there, as there is no individual soul. My question is, if as Shri Sangom says that all the karmas, good and bad are experienced then how is this theory conceptually different from the individual soul theory. If you are experiencing the effects of all the karmas then it should be according to some laws. In some way, a record is kept to ensure that all the karmas are experienced by the "I-consciousness". Is it not the same as saying that a soul is responsible for its actions? Only you name it as I-consciousness.

Exactly, Shri Sravna!!!!

"I-consciousness" = Soul


Each "I-consciousness"/Soul is different with its karmic debts and as such each has its own understanding, perceptions, realizations, maturity, intentions and attitude, all inbuilt in due process of learning, going through brith-death-birth cycle.

Mere humans life revolves around "I consciousness" and the force/energy that makes sense of "I consciousness" is nothing but the Soul. No Soul = No "I consciousness". Call it as Soul OR "I consciousness", it is the one that accumulates Karma. This Soul / "I consciousness" which is the part of the purest universal consciousness can attempt towards identifying the self as part of the supreme consciousness while surviving with the core sense of "I" (separate/unique from all and everything in this physical world) and performing with the sense of prema, kama, krodha, lobha etc, being influenced by Maya of this creation.

 

[sravna]

Dear Sangom Ji,

You have touched upon the concept of Collective Karma and Individual Karma in your reply when you are speaking about Karmic Layers.

I have this info regarding Collective Karma which could help us understand it better.


Taken from the article:

Collective Karma

Theosophy:- Karma


Before completing this imperfect study we must consider what is termed Collective Karma, the complex into which are woven the results of the collective thoughts, desires and activities of groups, whether large or small.

The principles at work are the same, but the factors are far more numerous, and this multiplicity immensely increases the difficulty of understanding the effects.

The idea of considering a group as a larger individual is not alien from modern science, and such larger individuals generate karma along lines similar to those which we have been studying. A family, a nation, a sub-race, a race, are all but larger individuals, each having a past behind it, the creator of its present, each with a future ahead of it, now in course of creation.

An ego coming into such a larger individual must share in its general karma; his own special karma has brought him into it, and must be worked out within it, the larger karma often offering conditions which enable the smaller to act.

Dear Renuka,

Collective karma seems to be an interesting concept. May I speculate that one's individual karma decides one's natural abilities in the future birth whereas the collective karma decides the environment in which one is born, such as the family, country etc?

BTW, Is there any authoritative source on this topic?